Just Curiosity: Are we to formula ladden?

[RavenWinterHawk]

I guess UO released the formulas of stuff one day.
Im not really sure where they came from and that is one question maybe someone could answer.


The other one has to do with relying on them. Is that a fun part of the game?

Isnt there something said to learning what intuitively seems to work and going with that play style?

I know for PvP everyone wants the edge. But at some point I think over-formulation or to much information ruins the exploration of the game.


If formulas were redone and not given to us... would you quit?

 

[Trebr Drab]

Yes we are too formula laden. The numbers that came with AoS are a drag, in my opinion. A player can spend more time trying to figure out what combination of items gives the best results for one class of encounters, and then do it again for every other class of encounters. Some gamers probably like that, but I don't. I don't consider that "game play", but I can see that some others might.

UO has become "all about the numbers". There's little randomness, and predictability rules. That's just not fun to me.

And the same can be said for individual encounters. There's a formula for winning, us it and win, don't and don't win. That's pretty normal in games, but I'd like to see things move beyond that. Better AI would go a long ways towards making things better. I wish they had concentrated on that instead of adding all the formulas.

 

[Nvnter]

The formulas (programming) changes all the time. Its the spice of online life. If this game stayed stagnant it would be dying faster then it is now (can you say barely more exciting then Tic Tac Toe?). I want change, I enjoy adapting my play style and finding new strategies.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

But I think the OP is really asking are we to informed.

I am sure there are two .... passionate groups on this subject.

I am one that thinks we are way to informed. Yet I look on Stratics and other places for information

 

[Setnaffa]

Are we TOO formula LADEN?

I think not. As a software developer, and an occassional game writer, the more objects in your game that are based on a formula or variables instead of constants, the more dynamic your game (or world) can be.

I can also say that there are probably 20 formulas or equations in the game for every one you know about.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Are we TOO formula LADEN?

I think not. As a software developer, and an occassional game writer, the more objects in your game that are based on a formula or variables instead of constants, the more dynamic your game (or world) can be.

I can also say that there are probably 20 formulas or equations in the game for every one you know about.

This would be true, but when we have health bars on the Opponent, as an example, have we really gone to far? It isn't like I think anything is going to change but seeing how much if any damage we are doing is by now a key component in the decisions that are made during the battle.

When we see all the stats/modifiers on items have we gone to far?

Were is the mystery in the finding of an item and the discovery of how good or bad it is, when everything is known about that item.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Good post! I never cared too much about formulas. My playstyle was intuitive and fun-oriented. During my first year of UO (1998) I didn't even know anything about game mechanics. I just used the skills I wanted. I cherish these days of innocence.

But, UO has turned into an item-dependent game where people hunt for statistics in order to create the most powerful template. I wish the focus was less on items and more on fun, adventure and community. I also would appreciate a more random element in the game.

 

[Coppelia]

What I love is the very precise and twisted formulas for a loose random result. Yeah that means you, luck formula.

 

[Maplestone]

Complexity of the underlying formulas and allowing players to see the numbers are two separate issues to me.

I'm a fan of seeing the numbers, as fun as intuition is, because once people have reverse-engineered the formulas (and they will if they're useful formulas), hiding the numbers only increases the learning curve and difficulty of spotting bugs when things are changed.

Now on the subject of complexity of the formulas, I would argue yes, we have gone too far and that this was proven by the archery debates of a few years ago when people were trying to tell the devs that one-hit kills in PvP were possible - even the devs had trouble finding their way through the formulas to where the modifiers were stacking up to absurdity.

It's so tempting when creating a simulation to add a hundred modifiers to catch all sorts of "realism", but the value quickly evaporates the first time a seemingly small rebalance in one area of the game throws the finely tuned formula into chaos. And I think this is where UO runs into trouble.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

One of my problems with the formulas is they are too formula driven and not game driven.

What does that mean?
Thanks for asking

A sword, a lance, a dagger, a bow, a butcher knife.

They are all treated the same way in melee flesh to flesh.

The formulas dont take into account more realistic features. A person attempting to draw a bow back while in hand to hand combat. It just shouldnt happen.

A dagger being used against someone with a long sword. No reach mechanics incorporated into the formula.

A butcher knife on a guy in plate armour. Sure the could hit the joint but come on.

These things are more important in my opinion in developing realism.

I really dont see the point of having different weapons. Sure primary and secondary abilities gave them purpose but I believe these are things that should be dependant on what the player learns... not the weapon itself.

I mean choosing a butcher knife over a longsword. We just go to fastest weapon.

Their should be an edge to the longsword beyond damage. REACH.

 

[Gildar]

If formulas aren't released (and they remain as important as they are today), those who learn them through experimentation first have a huge advantage.

Everybody should be able to learn the rules of the game quickly and easily.

 

[Trebr Drab]

One of my problems with the formulas is they are too formula driven and not game driven.

What does that mean?
Thanks for asking

A sword, a lance, a dagger, a bow, a butcher knife.

They are all treated the same way in melee flesh to flesh.

The formulas dont take into account more realistic features. A person attempting to draw a bow back while in hand to hand combat. It just shouldnt happen.

A dagger being used against someone with a long sword. No reach mechanics incorporated into the formula.

A butcher knife on a guy in plate armour. Sure the could hit the joint but come on.

These things are more important in my opinion in developing realism.

I really dont see the point of having different weapons. Sure primary and secondary abilities gave them purpose but I believe these are things that should be dependant on what the player learns... not the weapon itself.

I mean choosing a butcher knife over a longsword. We just go to fastest weapon.

Their should be an edge to the longsword beyond damage. REACH.

I agree entirely, but I'd add that reach has an additional component. With reach you have a "sweet spot" in range. Now, an unarmed guy with a sword can be bested by the other with a knife if the other guy can get inside that swords effective range. That's where armor comes into place though, because then the armored, sword wielding guy might not get hurt, and might just throw the knife wielder away, making him an easy target while he's off balance.

Technically, this all can be simulated...reach and getting inside that reach, wrestling and throws, etc. Visually it might be a little trickier.

And there'd need to be some rules of forced prevention to trying to get "inside" a weapon like this, a defensive capability.

The only way they could do this with the current system, I think, would be to add more special moves, and they'd have to add an armor vs. speed component to make it worthwhile to not wear armor.

I don't expect anything of this nature though. They like their items and formulas. It's like other games.

 

[Trebr Drab]

If formulas aren't released (and they remain as important as they are today), those who learn them through experimentation first have a huge advantage.

Everybody should be able to learn the rules of the game quickly and easily.

That's why AoS was so devastating. You can't do anything else. And it's led, predictably, to a dead end that needs constant additions to lead to another dead end.

Instead, they could be using their time to add new and exciting things sideways, rather than up with more of what's really just more of the same.

 

[Maplestone]

These things are more important in my opinion in developing realism.

UO can't be a simulation of all things - no matter how detailed your modifiers, there will always be differences in physics and tactics you haven't factored in. And that's before you consider that UO does not exist by real-world physics - few people in UO fight with mundane weapons and even then there is no limit to the possible number of subtle magical modifications possible, the little routine magical tricks any experienced soldier in such a world might know that aren't showy enough to show up as "spells".

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

If formulas aren't released (and they remain as important as they are today), those who learn them through experimentation first have a huge advantage.

Everybody should be able to learn the rules of the game quickly and easily.

I actually disagree with this.
Learning comes in many ways. For instance info is shared here. Friends share info. So you would learn differently.


What I disagree with is "learn the rules of the game quickly and easily"
Having a bizzillion formulas doesnt make it easier. I dont use them.

I got to a forum and someone says ssi compound bow.

At some point all these formulas and add on and special moves and new weapons make learning the game quickly and easily a farce.

Just too much.
I know it cause Ive been playing 10 plus years.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

That's why AoS was so devastating. You can't do anything else. And it's led, predictably, to a dead end that needs constant additions to lead to another dead end.

Instead, they could be using their time to add new and exciting things sideways, rather than up with more of what's really just more of the same.

YEP THATS why we all end up (most of us) with soulstones and template dejour.

And we all look the same.

 

[Stupid Miner]

Hm... reach sounds interesting. Couldn't they just give all the weapons a set length and compare the length of the weapons when fighting to give the person with the shorter sword a DCI disadvantage? (euphemisms aside)

Then the longer weapons would have a longer swing speed. You know, it'd be a pain to balance this system.

... and archers seem balanced as they are currently, if you want to give them a realistic melee disadvantage, you also have to give them a realistic range (and the screen isn't large enough).

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Hm... reach sounds interesting. Couldn't they just give all the weapons a set length and compare the length of the weapons when fighting to give the person with the shorter sword a DCI disadvantage? (euphemisms aside)

Then the longer weapons would have a longer swing speed. You know, it'd be a pain to balance this system.

... and archers seem balanced as they are currently, if you want to give them a realistic melee disadvantage, you also have to give them a realistic range (and the screen isn't large enough).

I think the archery weapon would become a mace weapon at close range. No need for skill change but the archer would use it differently vs shoot areas locked in hand to hand. Maybe even put spikes on a heavy for that.

 

[Gildar]

What I disagree with is "learn the rules of the game quickly and easily"
Having a bizzillion formulas doesnt make it easier. I dont use them.

If a game world is controlled by billions of formulas, having easy access to the formulas is better than being forced to either learn the rules by trial and error or know somebody (or know somebody who knows somebody) who went through trial and error (and even then, you probably won't get an accurate picture until you go through more trial and error under the assumption that your initial knowledge was correct).

The existence of the formulas is not the good thing - the availability considering they exist and have so much meaning on the game is what is good.

 

[Rykus]

Try making a brand new character on any production shard WITHOUT the help of your other characters. Act like you're a [young] player, with no resources. How easy is all of this stuff to understand, and how in the world does someone get a start when the most basic of items cost a million or more gold? I tried this on Catskills recently, and after asking for a few hours if someone could help me out with just a BASIC GM SET of leather, which was met with various insults, I gave up.

The bottom line is that since the introduction of all these resists, and insurance with AoS, the game has become MUCH more difficult. I have been playing for 10 years, and when I started you could easily get a foothold in the world with the basic starter equipment, then acquire a workable suit of bone armor by killing skeletons in the Brit GY. The barrier to entry is just ludicrous now. People wonder why UO doesn't appeal to new players these days. Try being one!

With that said, the only shard where I feel it's still viable to do anything remotely like it used to be is Siege. This is not an advertisement for Siege, but since we don't have insurance, GM leather is still viable, and people still make/sell it for just a fe thousand gold. Sure, if you want to compete on the high end of PvP, or do the peerless bosses you will need good equipment, but you can certainly survive just fine without it.

Insurance sucks, and all of these post-AoS properties suck just as bad.

 

[Stupid Miner]

I think the archery weapon would become a mace weapon at close range. No need for skill change but the archer would use it differently vs shoot areas locked in hand to hand. Maybe even put spikes on a heavy for that.

Well realistically a bow would pretty much snap like a twig if used to parry in melee combat against something bigger than a dagger, cant really bash with them too well either. Whats wrong with pulling a bowstring at close range?

... and you can't use a bow as a mace, regular bows are too flexible to damage an armored opponent, and crossbows would tend to break if you swung them like a club, especially repeaters. And you'd have to specially design a cross bow to work as a stabbing weapon, even then I'm not sure if it could be much good.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Well realistically a bow would pretty much snap like a twig if used to parry in melee combat against something bigger than a dagger, cant really bash with them too well either. Whats wrong with pulling a bowstring at close range?

... and you can't use a bow as a mace, regular bows are too flexible to damage an armored opponent, and crossbows would tend to break if you swung them like a club, especially repeaters. And you'd have to specially design a cross bow to work as a stabbing weapon, even then I'm not sure if it could be much good.

Not close range. Hand to hand distance. Since your sort of putting reality into it with the snapping of the bow... Imagine a guy one arm length away from you wielding a sword. Reach into your quiver, set the arrow, draw the string, turn to aim... whack whack whack your hit 3x.

Its the distance.

Bring a lance to a sword battle and let the guy get close to you... now try weilding the lance around to turn the point on him.

Its like fishing with a surf fishing rod on a wooded shore line... It will work but it damn slow and a pain in the butt.

A surf rod is 10-12 feet. A rod for the shore line is 4-6 feet. Just in case.

 

[hawkeye_pike]

Try making a brand new character on any production shard WITHOUT the help of your other characters. Act like you're a [young] player, with no resources. How easy is all of this stuff to understand, and how in the world does someone get a start when the most basic of items cost a million or more gold? I tried this on Catskills recently, and after asking for a few hours if someone could help me out with just a BASIC GM SET of leather, which was met with various insults, I gave up.

The bottom line is that since the introduction of all these resists, and insurance with AoS, the game has become MUCH more difficult. I have been playing for 10 years, and when I started you could easily get a foothold in the world with the basic starter equipment, then acquire a workable suit of bone armor by killing skeletons in the Brit GY. The barrier to entry is just ludicrous now. People wonder why UO doesn't appeal to new players these days. Try being one!

With that said, the only shard where I feel it's still viable to do anything remotely like it used to be is Siege. This is not an advertisement for Siege, but since we don't have insurance, GM leather is still viable, and people still make/sell it for just a fe thousand gold. Sure, if you want to compete on the high end of PvP, or do the peerless bosses you will need good equipment, but you can certainly survive just fine without it.

Insurance sucks, and all of these post-AoS properties suck just as bad.

I agree, insurance and too much item-dependance changed UO a little to the worse. BUT:

It is wrong to say that the game has become much more difficult. There is plenty of game content for low level players, but veterans like you and me just don't want to use it anymore. Why is that so? The reason lies within ourselves.

Just look at this message board: People whining for rewards. People whining for more powerful items. People whining for a higher skill cap. Etc. It is the players who ruin the game, and it is the developers who listen to them too much.

Where is the difference to Siege? Your statement can be applied to any shard: "Sure, if you want to compete on the high end of PvP, or do the peerless bosses you will need good equipment, but you can certainly survive just fine without it." I often run around in GM-crafted armor (non-runic), and I do well in all the legacy dungeons.

I also don't believe that you were insulted when asking politely for help with GM-made armor. On Catskills if you'd ask this in New Haven, you'd receive much more than you had asked for.

 

[Coppelia]

I agree, insurance and too much item-dependance changed UO a little to the worse. BUT:

It is wrong to say that the game has become much more difficult.

Indeed, the vicious circle of more powerful players, more powerful monsters, more powerful rewards made that you can't die from a troll or an ettin anymore, while they were dangerous in the beginning of the game. On the other hand with more and more powerful monster to beat, those who aren't at the top of PvM "competition" find them very hard.
So yeah, you can't solo a paragon godlike creature if you don't minmax your character, but the game is still easier.