Such as, I could pay someone just to log on to my account to only farm gold/items for me
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Is It Illegal To....
- Thread starter Connor_Graham
- Start date
- Watchers 1
Funny. Never heard of that being offered, ever. No one is that stupid (at least I hope not) to pay someone to use your own account to farm for you when you have people selling the gold itself. Hence the discussion here being about selling/buying gold, not people logging into your account to farm it for you.
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altarego
Guest
I've had a chance to sit down and finally read the ToS in detail, along with the RoC and I have to come to the conclusion that selling UO gold or items for real money is not illegal. There's absolutely nothing in either document that states that a user cannot offer UO goods or services, through their own websites.
Basically, these situations are illegal:
1. Advertising in the game or on a EA/UO sponsored website for such services - in any way, shape, or form
2. Charging people for copies of the client
3. Charging people for access to the servers (in addition to the EA charge)
4. Using their code for your own personal benefit, regardless of whether you profit from it
5. Third-party programs, without written permission
Basically, these situations are illegal:
1. Advertising in the game or on a EA/UO sponsored website for such services - in any way, shape, or form
2. Charging people for copies of the client
3. Charging people for access to the servers (in addition to the EA charge)
4. Using their code for your own personal benefit, regardless of whether you profit from it
5. Third-party programs, without written permission
Unless something has changed, selling stuff for cash is not illegal. Remember, it's OSI/EA who embraced RLT, bragged about RLT, and let it go on for years and years.
To my knowledge, though they won't allow website links, they certainly haven't stopped people from or made RLT illegal.
The simple way to look at it is...
Look at the ToS! I'm pretty sure EA/OSI have never actually made it illegal despite the many statements of players as the such. I know posting or advertising websites that sell items is illegal but if its of a personal nature I dont think EA/OSI really care.
People say its illegal out of hand without any real proof, research or reason tbh. In short if it was illegal to sell items then Mythic could easilly ban the accounts of the brokers etc with one wave of a hand.
Look at the ToS! I'm pretty sure EA/OSI have never actually made it illegal despite the many statements of players as the such. I know posting or advertising websites that sell items is illegal but if its of a personal nature I dont think EA/OSI really care.
People say its illegal out of hand without any real proof, research or reason tbh. In short if it was illegal to sell items then Mythic could easilly ban the accounts of the brokers etc with one wave of a hand.
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Evlar
Guest
What if it's wearing a parachute?
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altarego
Guest
Just did that and summarized it for y'all.
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Sevin0oo0
Guest
Commercial ad's and sales are not the same as private sellers - tos stated Commercial.
I'm W/ Dermott. Some things just will not happen, or be said.
Ex. I'd like to see a Mod (or see a statement from EA) officially saying UO Cart is legal - that's not happening either.
Their original stance was who cares, then it started generating trouble tickets/calls that had nothing to do w/ game services, and per a certain individual, the reduction of calls was most important and in-game changes started occuring - I'm sure we all remember the #1 house seller who ran naked thru the streets (awesome guy from vegas).
I'm W/ Dermott. Some things just will not happen, or be said.
Ex. I'd like to see a Mod (or see a statement from EA) officially saying UO Cart is legal - that's not happening either.
Their original stance was who cares, then it started generating trouble tickets/calls that had nothing to do w/ game services, and per a certain individual, the reduction of calls was most important and in-game changes started occuring - I'm sure we all remember the #1 house seller who ran naked thru the streets (awesome guy from vegas).
D
Duke X. Winter
Guest
The sources I posted are from the TOS, and like it or not, that's what matters. It doesn't matter if it's a carbon copy of every other game out there, SO LONG AS THERE ISN'T ANOTHER SET OF RULES TO GO BY.
So far, NO ONE, NOT ONE PERSON, has been able to provide DOCUMENTED proof that selling items/gold/real estate/anything else from/in UO for real life currency is LEGAL, whether in print or in media.
Talk is cheap without proof. If you can't provide the proof, you're wrong.
Can ANYONE provide real proof that I am wrong? Anyone at all? Please?
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altarego
Guest
Actually, you're not wrong, you're just thinking about it the wrong way. The ToS isn't written to tell you what's legal. It's written to tell you what is, essentially, an illegal use of their software and servers.
There is no proof because none is needed. If it's not outlined in the ToS or superseded by your state laws, then it's presumed to be legal. I went through the ToS (it's not all that long or complicated) and there is no mention anywhere, either explicitly or implicitly that selling gp or other services within the framework of the game mechanics is illegal.****
However, it *is* illegal to use their system to *advertise* those services. It's also illegal to sell copies of the game itself (either in whole or in part) or charge for access to the servers. It's illegal to tamper with the communications between the client and the server, and subsequently, 3rd party programs must have permission in writing to be legal. It's even illegal to use the intellectual property of the game for your own benefit (but that's copyright, not ToS).
In the end, people don't write laws to tell you what you can do...they write laws to tell you what you can't. People that sell gold for real cash are, in the eyes of the law, no different than if you paid your little brother to come farm gold while you went out to dinner. If you can understand that distinction (rather, lack thereof), then you'll understand where I'm coming from - which is basically how EA has written it into their ToS.
Is this morally right? I agree that it is not. But legally? It seems to be acceptable to EA, according to their ToS.
Go, read for yourself.
****It's all moot, of course if you have state laws against such, but I've not heard of any state barring such transactions.
...
The sale of ingame gold/items for real money is neither moral nor immoral. In fact, to the game, it doesn't even make the difference between someone who GIVES a player gold or an item for free or someone who gives the same gold/item to another player in exchange for an external commodity. All the game sees is the gold/item going from player A to player B.
What is immoral (in game terms) are the exploits, dupes and scripting done to produce the gold/items at an unnatural rate.
My "morality question" I always enjoy posing on this topic is this:
Which of the following is more moral/legal:
1. Player A farms up 1,000,000 gold via legal means. That player then sells the gold for an amount of real life cash to Player B. Player B sends the money via Paypal and accepts the transfer of gold ingame.
2. Player A dupes 1,000,000 gold via a dupe exploit. That player then gives the duped gold to Player B for free.
The answer in terms of legality is scenario 1 and has been for over a decade (let's put it this way... gold selling in UO has been legal for a longer time than the used of UOA).
In fact the game only sees the exchange between player A and player B.
However in scenario 2, Player A has exploited a bug to dupe said gold, thus we have a bannable offense if they are caught in some manner.
The ONLY situation in which scenario 1 even becomes "immoral" is via each person's personal feelings towards RMT, however in game terms, only scenario 2 is actionable by the GMs.
The sale of ingame gold/items for real money is neither moral nor immoral. In fact, to the game, it doesn't even make the difference between someone who GIVES a player gold or an item for free or someone who gives the same gold/item to another player in exchange for an external commodity. All the game sees is the gold/item going from player A to player B.
What is immoral (in game terms) are the exploits, dupes and scripting done to produce the gold/items at an unnatural rate.
My "morality question" I always enjoy posing on this topic is this:
Which of the following is more moral/legal:
1. Player A farms up 1,000,000 gold via legal means. That player then sells the gold for an amount of real life cash to Player B. Player B sends the money via Paypal and accepts the transfer of gold ingame.
2. Player A dupes 1,000,000 gold via a dupe exploit. That player then gives the duped gold to Player B for free.
The answer in terms of legality is scenario 1 and has been for over a decade (let's put it this way... gold selling in UO has been legal for a longer time than the used of UOA).
In fact the game only sees the exchange between player A and player B.
However in scenario 2, Player A has exploited a bug to dupe said gold, thus we have a bannable offense if they are caught in some manner.
The ONLY situation in which scenario 1 even becomes "immoral" is via each person's personal feelings towards RMT, however in game terms, only scenario 2 is actionable by the GMs.
...
Let me add this. People wanted proof... Town Hall 10/18/08, notes taken by me, found them digging over at another site that copied them over (with permission):
Legal way to sell UO gold: Currently selling UO gold is not a violation. Jacobs may not like RMT sales, but it is LEGAL in UO.
And you can find the full notes and link to recording HERE
Let me add this. People wanted proof... Town Hall 10/18/08, notes taken by me, found them digging over at another site that copied them over (with permission):
Legal way to sell UO gold: Currently selling UO gold is not a violation. Jacobs may not like RMT sales, but it is LEGAL in UO.
And you can find the full notes and link to recording HERE
R
Reximus
Guest
Stop using the term 'illegal', you're definitely not going to jail for selling gold irl.
Tread carefully in sketchy areas.
They can ban your account at any time for whatever reason they wish, whether they will for selling gold is up to them, they could let 1000 people do it then ban you.
Tread carefully in sketchy areas.
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AtlanteanAngel
Guest
Legality, Morality, Ethicality, CosmoEthicality. These are all completely separate. Only the simple-minded confuse them as one and the same.
Legality. The Law is the Law, but Do As Thou Wilt, Just Don't Get Caught. (Rule#1)
Morality. A false illlusion (usually based on religious beliefs). There is no 'right' and 'wrong', which is the result of an oversimplified and false 'white' or 'black' ideology. There are only Actions and their Consequences (consequentialism karmic philosophy).
Ethicality. Do Unto Others As You Would Like Others To Do Unto You. A superior measure of human decency than the subjective and illusionary 'morality'.
CosmoEthics. A spectrum, not binary polar opposites. That (direction or pathway) of Action which Results in the Greatest Benefit or Highest Good of All Beings involved (directly), and for All the Universe (indirectly). No one individual or authority has the capacity to dictate or judge which path is most cosmoethical (but more highly evolved individuals and consciousnesses will do their utmost to align their own personal intentions with CosmoEthics), only the natural consequences thereafter can.
Legality. The Law is the Law, but Do As Thou Wilt, Just Don't Get Caught. (Rule#1)
Morality. A false illlusion (usually based on religious beliefs). There is no 'right' and 'wrong', which is the result of an oversimplified and false 'white' or 'black' ideology. There are only Actions and their Consequences (consequentialism karmic philosophy).
Ethicality. Do Unto Others As You Would Like Others To Do Unto You. A superior measure of human decency than the subjective and illusionary 'morality'.
CosmoEthics. A spectrum, not binary polar opposites. That (direction or pathway) of Action which Results in the Greatest Benefit or Highest Good of All Beings involved (directly), and for All the Universe (indirectly). No one individual or authority has the capacity to dictate or judge which path is most cosmoethical (but more highly evolved individuals and consciousnesses will do their utmost to align their own personal intentions with CosmoEthics), only the natural consequences thereafter can.
I say everyone who ever sees the dude that drops those stupid website books should target him and call gm on him. everyone on every shard do it enough times you can blast that account and all others that follow it right outta the water
Kaboom.
Kaboom.
D
Duke X. Winter
Guest
As I said I would, I admit to not being correct. If they said this, then great, it's legal as far as the game goes. That being said, the TOS needs to be updated, since that's what GM's go by, not what is said at a town hall meeting.
S
Sevin0oo0
Guest
To the OP's orig question...
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=148168
ChrissayEAMythic - 07-17-2009
The only URLs that you are allowed to use in the game are official EA links and links to the Official Fansite program.
Setnaffa - UO Moderator:
Are IM addresses OK in game? I see alot of ICQ numbers on vendors.
Chrissay:
As far back as I remember ICQ numbers have been in game.
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=148168
ChrissayEAMythic - 07-17-2009
The only URLs that you are allowed to use in the game are official EA links and links to the Official Fansite program.
Setnaffa - UO Moderator:
Are IM addresses OK in game? I see alot of ICQ numbers on vendors.
Chrissay:
As far back as I remember ICQ numbers have been in game.