Greater Dragons: I've seen this before.

[Beefybone]

Am I the only one who remembers years of players asking to be able to tame Ancient Wyrms, and multiple developers over the course of years blowing the idea off because it was ludicrously overpowered on it's face?

But here comes the current dev team, with it's... uh... curious opinions on balance. So they create a redundant sub-race of dragons that are nothing but Ancient Wyrms with a different name and graphic, and make them tameable.

Okay, first off, you would have been better off just making Ancient Wyrms tameable. It would have filled the exact same role, and the average player would still be able to hunt in the first level of Destard. Having two separate but nearly-identical "like a dragon except all hardcore" creatures just feels redundant and ham-fisted.

Secondly, the pitch on these creatures was incredibly deceptive. The introduction of Greater Dragons was sold as some sort of PVM balance issue, when in reality it was nothing but a tamer buff.

Dev: "Hey, remember when dragons were tough? Yeah, those were the days! Shouldn't they be hard again? After all, they're dragons!"
Player: "But we already have harder versions of the dragon. They're called Ancient Wyrms. Or Shadow Wyrms, for that matter. Or paragons."
Dev: "Yeah, but regular dragons should be tougher because their name says DRAGON! So here are Greater Dragons! Enjoy!"
Player: "Um, you didn't buff regular dragons at all. They're still as easy as ever. You just created yet another separate 'tougher dragon' creature like all the ones I just listed. And oh yeah, coincidence, made this one tameable."
Dev: "Herf."

Because, you know, poor tamers are UO's weakest template and totally needed a giant buff.

 

[5% Luck]

AW are ugly. At this point Id rather just kill them. And the greater dragons makes the paragon AW pretty easy SOLO!

 

[Tom_Builder]

Im I the only one who remembers the dragons before AoS? When ALL dragons were greater? When I could have 10 or 15 of them! When not only did they kickass, but when they would loot my kills for me?

Im I the only one who worked my ass off to get GM taming back in 2000?

Then worked it off again to get it to 120 in 2003.

Im I the only one who remembers AoS turning my once powerful pet in to a pile of crap.

Im I the only one who is sick of every other thread being a nerf tamer post?

Give it a rest will ya?

 

[5% Luck]

I had one of the 1st dragons on the atlantic shard! 98!

 

[Uvtha]

Im I the only one who remembers the dragons before AoS? When ALL dragons were greater? When I could have 10 or 15 of them! When not only did they kickass, but when they would loot my kills for me?

Im I the only one who worked my ass off to get GM taming back in 2000?

Then worked it off again to get it to 120 in 2003.

Im I the only one who remembers AoS turning my once powerful pet in to a pile of crap.

Im I the only one who is sick of every other thread being a nerf tamer post?

Give it a rest will ya?

I worked my butt off to gm taming in 1998-part of 1999. I was also one of the first dragon tamers, but on Ls. Been taming since day one. Uber-dragons were a stupid idea, one that I am still very much against. Of course much less of a problem on regular shards, but a HUGE problem on siege.

I have one, because i have no choice if I want to gather leather, which I do to run a shop (or did, im not doing it now).

A nerf is needed. More accurately they should have known well enough the problems this stupid dragon would cause. Cause like the OP said, it IS basically just an ancient wyrm.

 

[Beefybone]

I don't really care how much carpal tunnel syndrome somebody got working taming back in ye olden times during the Clinton Administration, nor is that a concern upon which to base game design. I don't even really care that tamers can kill a bunch of powerful stuff with relative ease. Whatever.

What I care about is the fact that every high-end creature now has to be balanced AGAINST these stupid superdragons. Everything had better be able to kill a player in seconds, or the superdragons won't even notice the damage. Everything had better have a trillion hitpoints or else the superdragons will eat it up too fast.

Balancing against pets with stats vastly in excess of those of any player has been a problem for this game for many years, and adding crap like this just makes it all the worse. It's the sort of thing a not-very-bright freeshard administrator would add.

EDIT: Oh, and I still think the way the devs tried to sell this change to the players was incredibly shady. It wasn't a PVM buff for dragons. When "a dragon" spawns, it's still as easy as ever. All they did was create a new creature.

What's more, remembering fondly upon the times when a dragon was a high-end creature doesn't hold any sway with me. I don't really give a crap what was hard to kill back when everyone had GM armor and a balron was the toughest thing in the game. The ceiling has risen, and there are actual bosses now at the top of the PVM heap.

 

[Ailish]

But here comes the current dev team, with it's... uh... curious opinions on balance. So they create a redundant sub-race of dragons that are nothing but Ancient Wyrms with a different name and graphic, and make them tameable.

If you are going to sling blame around, at least put it in the right place. It was Wilki who put in GD, right before he left, and in the same publish he put the runic rework in.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Seeing as to how this is nothing but another, in a very long string of "Lets Nerf Tamers", I think this thread belongs in the Tamer Forum as that is the most appropriate place for this discussion.

I will make that recommendation

 

[GFY]

The ceiling has risen, and there are actual bosses now at the top of the PVM heap.

Hence the need for new and improved monsters. Dragons should have always been at the top of the food chain. With the introduction of tuffer monsters dragons were at best third rate. Now their back where they should have been all along.

 

[Eslake]

What I care about is the fact that every high-end creature now has to be balanced AGAINST these stupid superdragons. Everything had better be able to kill a player in seconds, or the superdragons won't even notice the damage. Everything had better have a trillion hitpoints or else the superdragons will eat it up too fast.

Balancing against pets with stats vastly in excess of those of any player has been a problem for this game for many years, and adding crap like this just makes it all the worse. It's the sort of thing a not-very-bright freeshard administrator would add.

Really? Name one creature that has been "balanced" since GDs were introduced.

*waits patiently*

Nice Try.


How about we apply some REAL comparisons and balances?

Compare the damage output of a dexxer pre-AoS to one today. Wow, an increase of more than 5x damage.
Compare the damage output of the highest pet pre-AoS(WW) to a a GD today.
Wow, an increase of more than 3x damage.

hmmmm 5 vs 3

Compare the survivability of a dexxer pre-AoS to one today. Good luck. With Vamp form, HLL, and other factors introduced since then, you can't even make a comparison since for all practical purposes, a dexxer using today's skills and items is immortal against pre-AoS mobs.
Compare the survivability of the maximum pre-AoS pet (WW) to a GD today.
Oh look, it's easy to compare.. almost exactly 2x the health.

Infinite vs 2

How about we start sharing links to just WHO is soloing the hardest mobs in the game? We all have links to every single peerless being dexxer-solo'd, but good luck finding links to tamers soloing more than the 2.


Or should we go back again to GDs in PvP?
Since I already accepted the challenge and proved to several of you that it was a non-issue using current skills (by standing toe-to-toe with a MELEE character and killing their tamed GDs one after the other without moving or falling below 50% health) I doubt many want to go there again.


GDs are an issue on SP because the use of new gear isn't as realistic there.
Agreed.
GDs are an issue as long as ALL NPC spellcasters que spells making them able to cast through houses and from beyond the limits of actual spell ranges.
Agreed.

But to say that GDs are overpowered because they are 2-3x as powerful as a pet we had 4 expansions ago? That's a joke!

Character skills and gear have increased in power by more than that in the same time frame. If anything pets are lagging by 2 or 3 expansions relative to what characters can do.

 

[Lady Kiara]

Ok first off this is no way a FLAME.And if it sounds like it i am truly sorry.


Ahhhh the Tamers one of the Most hardest professions to work up.Why not have a reward for all your hard Work...CU's, Greater Dragon. First people started complaining about the CU's because thier Bite Was hard And They have Bleed attack And they Heal them selfs as well as thier masters..and in pvp People had hardly any chance against them...Almost one bite and OoooOOO...Now all you see is the people who are getting killed by these Greater Dragons in PVP Complaining....(most Antways)

Will they ever Nerf the Greater Dragons? Why yes yes they did...Will they ever nerf them again I dought it.

It's funny how people that are not Tamers argue over the fact that Tamers have to much. When People were crying that fighters can't stand a chance against now a day Creatures..They brought out the Skill Chivalry and God like Weapons and Armour...I see no Difference sorry.

When Tamers Tame something they have to train it no matter what it is.once trained it is tuff no matter what it is....I seen someone train a Chicken and kill a player(my god that was funny).

In short unless your a Tamer complaining about the things you tame and fight with(which i dought You'll see)...Try Taming I bet You'll Love It...

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

I don't really care how much carpal tunnel syndrome somebody got working taming back in ye olden times during the Clinton Administration, nor is that a concern upon which to base game design. I don't even really care that tamers can kill a bunch of powerful stuff with relative ease. Whatever.

What I care about is the fact that every high-end creature now has to be balanced AGAINST these stupid superdragons. Everything had better be able to kill a player in seconds, or the superdragons won't even notice the damage. Everything had better have a trillion hitpoints or else the superdragons will eat it up too fast.

Balancing against pets with stats vastly in excess of those of any player has been a problem for this game for many years, and adding crap like this just makes it all the worse. It's the sort of thing a not-very-bright freeshard administrator would add.

EDIT: Oh, and I still think the way the devs tried to sell this change to the players was incredibly shady. It wasn't a PVM buff for dragons. When "a dragon" spawns, it's still as easy as ever. All they did was create a new creature.

What's more, remembering fondly upon the times when a dragon was a high-end creature doesn't hold any sway with me. I don't really give a crap what was hard to kill back when everyone had GM armor and a balron was the toughest thing in the game. The ceiling has risen, and there are actual bosses now at the top of the PVM heap.

Correct.

The ceiling has risen.

Now there is a creature that is viable in Pvp and not easy to kill. Deal with it.
If you play the right template a Greater Dragon is no problem at all(pvp or pvm)
My non bushido archer kills them all day long at the gate and in Despise without any special gear other then an extra Dragon Slaying bow in his pack. Not playing an archer? Other templates can also deal with them effectively.
But if you have issues with GD's and are unwilling to adapt you will get what you deserve: a swift death. That is as it should be.

Anyone with any serious issues over Gd's is just plain inexperienced or unable/unwilling to adapt IMO.