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Greater Dragons and PvP - Comments?

Llewen

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Supporter
So what you are saying is, greater dragons should be nerfed because you can't take them out when you are outnumbered, but you can beat them one on one? That's a brilliant piece of logic there. Anyone that I can't beat when I am outnumbered, should be nerfed! Absolutely brilliant!
See that is exactly why I am posting, as often as I have the opportunity, that the devs need to base game changing decisions on something other than the kind of player complaints they read here. For so many of the tamer haters that are complaining the loudest about tamers it doesn't appear to be that they are complaining because anything is unbalanced. They don't seem to be concerned with balance or fairness, they simply don't want to ever lose to a tamer, regardless of the circumstances. They don't want balance or fairness, they simply want tamers gone, gone, gone... and for some of them they don't simply want them gone from pvp, they want them gone from the game period.

And I'll post exactly what I've posted elsewhere. A tamer with a pet is pvp'ing as much as any other template is, and has as much right to be there as any other template. No, a tamer doesn't control the specific attacks that the pet chooses. No a tamer doesn't directly control the pet's movement. But a tamer that knows what she is doing most certainly does control when and where the pet attacks, and indirectly completely controls the pet's movement.

When a warrior toon with a weapon swings the weapon, it isn't the player swinging the weapon, it's the character's (ie. the toon's) a.i.. When a mage toon casts a spell, it isn't the player casting the spell, it's the character's a.i. Just as with a tamer, the player controls the when and where of the attack, not the attack itself. A tamer pvp'ing with a pet is pvp'ing as much as any warrior or mage is.

Is it different? Certainly it is. Every template is different, and requires different skills, and different kinds of preparation, but every single template requires skill and preparation, and having put in two solid years of pvp'ing as a tamer, and having some experience with other templates, it is my opinion that the various tamer templates require more preparation than some of the other templates, if the template is to be skillfully, and successfully played.

And I'll repeat yet another thing that I have posted elsewhere. UO is all about choices, and that is one of the major reasons why the tamer haters can so easily make me angry. Ultimately what they are trying to accomplish is to limit choice in pvp. If they succeed in their campaign, the game in general, and pvp specifically, will be the poorer for it.
 
C

Crow

Guest
Uhg, I know everyone hates pvp tamers, truth is...like stealth ninja archers, everyone hates them, unless you have them on your side.

I've played an archer tamer as my main for almost 3 years. I will say that people who sit at Yew gate or other guard zones and sick pets are lame.

I've always fought heavly outnumbered, and usually against far more experience players then on my side. But to each their own. The argument over weather pvp tamers are 'skilled' or not, or if they have a place in pvp is an old one. *yawns*

To answer the original question. I've found that greater dragons are too slow to be effective in open feild battles. Yes their breath weapon and spells can be devistating, but if your opponents can't outrun them, cross heal and take you down before they drop, they suck and deserve to die.

Where they do come in handy in pvp are for breaking or holding choak points. Areas such as the Despise bridges can be held, or lines broken with a greater dragon as backup and support.

Wither whoring is just as brainless one could argue, and this is a great way to counter it.
 

slayer888

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Basically, one mage tamer and one dismount archer tamer with 2 super dragons can take about 6 to 8 people in the despise bridge alone with good control.

The mage just needs to cast para fields and an energy field..

The dismount archer dismount whoever came in

The mage continue to cast some support spells such as curse, fs, magic arrow, fireballs to disrupt or continue cast para fields and energy fields at the bridge.

Whoever come in will die very fast with 2 super dragons, moving shots and para fields while blocked inside the island

tamer with a super dragon alone is very weak.. i can kill any super dragon tamer in 1 v 1 with either my pure mage, necro mage or my warrior

For pure mage, just need to suck mana of the tamer or cast some poison fields to mess him up then stay him cursed all the time. and start the bombing.. usually the super dragon cannot caught up with you if you are on horse

For necro mage, suck mana so the archer cannot dismount you, and strangle, ghost form, then curse and start the bombing... fairly easy

For warrior, simply get a dragon slayer bow or heavy bow, which should do over 130 to 160 damage per hit.. the super dragon dies in about 6 to 8 hits max.

Once the dragon dies, bleed attack the owner so he cant smoke bomb and moving shot him to dead..

Very simple.. it usually takes me 30 seconds to 1 minute to kill the tamers 1 v 1.

But for 1 v 10 fighting (which i usually do), when u get dismounted, you are pretty much doomed unless you got all those invisible ring, teleport ring and ninja skill after 5 seconds wear off

So yes,

Super dragon are too strong in group fights.. because of the 65 to 80 damage fireball it does to you. The only way to avoid it is do not close to him within one screen or else once he got the firebreath animation on you, even you run 2 or 3 screens away, the fireball will still hurt you.

They should nerf the firebreath damage from super dragon.
 

Llewen

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Supporter
They should nerf the firebreath damage from super dragon.
I don't necessarily disagree with this, as long as it is done in a way that doesn't affect any other pets. Dread warhorses are useful in pvp because of their firebreath, if it was nerfed on them as well, they'd be virtually useless.
 

Cailleach

Babbling Loonie
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Go complain about greaters to the guy with one who got toasted alongside his at Yew Gate on Europa yesterday. Watched as my hubby and a couple of his mates took the pair of 'em out no bother. Mind you, he did hang around whining and threatening for a while afterwards!

Greater drags can be got. My archer takes them. The trick is not to let it get close enough to bleed attack you. If there's two of you to cross heal, so much the better, but you can solo them. Try bow of the juka king. It's a little slow, but with EoO, consecrate and grapes, you'll do about 150+ damage a hit. It's not easy solo, but it can be done - much easier with two or more of you. Mages can heal and para, not to mention nail the tamer. Dexxers can cross heal and cover your back. Most of the felside players I've seen hang about in pairs or more or can have reinforcements there in no time at all, so with a bit of thought, it shouldn't be too much trouble.
 
M

Masumatek

Guest
I'm sick and tired of all the PvP whining about greater dragons. Greater dragons are the greatest thing to happen to this game since rune beetles. More and more people are becoming tamers because of these great pets and that's a good thing...they get to the experience the fun! Are dragons and other pets powerful? Yes. But tamers are deserving of this power. We take a longggg time to train and go through a lot of hardships to get this power. If you're so jealous, then train a tamer yourself! Clearly anyone complaining doesn't know how to PvP anyway. All you have to do is lead the pet away from the tamer! The devs don't spend enough time on tamers as it is anyway...we need these few treats they throw us. Some monsters are too difficult now to fight one on one without better pets, and I shouldn't be forced to group up with other people to fight the best monsters. It's just too bad the devs didn't spend enough time on pets and make dragons available on more colors or give us a pet dye tub. I often imagine how amazing it would look to be wearing a full suit of blaze with an awesome orange dragon with me!
 

TheScoundrelRico

Stratics Legend
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Every class should have a counter class in PvP. Tamers do not. Bards should be able to counter the tamers in the field.

Nuff said...la
 
M

MoonglowMerchant

Guest
I'm sick and tired of all the PvP whining about greater dragons. Greater dragons are the greatest thing to happen to this game since rune beetles. More and more people are becoming tamers because of these great pets and that's a good thing...they get to the experience the fun! Are dragons and other pets powerful? Yes. But tamers are deserving of this power. We take a longggg time to train and go through a lot of hardships to get this power. If you're so jealous, then train a tamer yourself! Clearly anyone complaining doesn't know how to PvP anyway. All you have to do is lead the pet away from the tamer! The devs don't spend enough time on tamers as it is anyway...we need these few treats they throw us. Some monsters are too difficult now to fight one on one without better pets, and I shouldn't be forced to group up with other people to fight the best monsters. It's just too bad the devs didn't spend enough time on pets and make dragons available on more colors or give us a pet dye tub. I often imagine how amazing it would look to be wearing a full suit of blaze with an awesome orange dragon with me!
lol mas
 

Orvago

Stratics' Finest
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Every class should have a counter class in PvP. Tamers do not. Bards should be able to counter the tamers in the field.

Nuff said...la
That does sound like a good counter. Bards should be able to peace/provoke/discord player's pets in Felucca.

Would make for a good makeup of a great fight between two groups. One group with Bards and others against a group with Tamers and others. Sounds like fun. :)
 

Omnicron

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
To answer the original question. I've found that greater dragons are too slow to be effective in open feild battles. Yes their breath weapon and spells can be devistating, but if your opponents can't outrun them, cross heal and take you down before they drop, they suck and deserve to die
Do you know how many times Ive been killed from firebreath when that slow dragon hasnt even been on my screen? Several. And yes thats while im casting greater heal on myself. It kind of silly. I just think they should tone down the dragon breath abit. Im all for tamers using their pets, I dont mind as I can kill most anyways, just GDrags firebreath gah....sucks.
 
M

MoonglowMerchant

Guest
Every class should have a counter class in PvP. Tamers do not. Bards should be able to counter the tamers in the field.

Nuff said...la
That does sound like a good counter. Bards should be able to peace/provoke/discord player's pets in Felucca.

Would make for a good makeup of a great fight between two groups. One group with Bards and others against a group with Tamers and others. Sounds like fun. :)
Bards can peace and disco them now.

It's not fun, it is lame. PvP is player versus player not player versus pet.

Monster ignore would be better.
 

Orvago

Stratics' Finest
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Bards can peace and disco them now.
Well that is good! Hmm, I wonder why so much complaining then? Go find a bard friend to team up with to take out those pesky tamer pvpers! *evil grin*

What about provoke?
 
M

MoonglowMerchant

Guest
Well that is good! Hmm, I wonder why so much complaining then? Go find a bard friend to team up with to take out those pesky tamer pvpers! *evil grin*

What about provoke?
You can't provoke them.
 
M

MoonglowMerchant

Guest
Well that is good! Hmm, I wonder why so much complaining then? Go find a bard friend to team up with to take out those pesky tamer pvpers! *evil grin*

What about provoke?
You have to understand that PvP'ers don't want pets in PvP. They want to fight players.

If they wanted to fight dragons or beetles or Cu they would go PvM.

Consequently, no one wants to have to bring a bard to peace or disco pets because they don't want the pets there in the first place.

People do it, but it is lame.

Monster Ignore would leave pets just the way the are for PvM, would give people the option to "remove" them from PvP, and would give factions a big boost.
 

Orvago

Stratics' Finest
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
You can't provoke them.
That should get put on the list then for some bard love.



Thieves could use some love and this could be an opportunity for that.

Hmm, mayhaps some special attack for Thieves/Assassins that can only be made with a dp dragon slayer, kind-of like finding that one spot that is missing a scale on a dragon and piercing it.

Just some thoughts. :)
 
M

Masumatek

Guest
You have to understand that PvP'ers don't want pets in PvP. They want to fight players.

If they wanted to fight dragons or beetles or Cu they would go PvM.

Consequently, no one wants to have to bring a bard to peace or disco pets because they don't want the pets there in the first place.

People do it, but it is lame.

Monster Ignore would leave pets just the way the are for PvM, would give people the option to "remove" them from PvP, and would give factions a big boost.
That would force you to join a broken factions system, force you to PvM to avoid PvM in PvP, and ignore the real issue. The solution is to nerf pets. Pets are and have been overpowered in PvP and it's about time they get nerfed or outright removed from it. Nor are these types of incentives the answer for factions. Being in factions should be fun and that's why people should join...not for monster ignore or blessings.
 
M

MoonglowMerchant

Guest
That would force you to join a broken factions system, force you to PvM to avoid PvM in PvP, and ignore the real issue. The solution is to nerf pets. Pets are and have been overpowered in PvP and it's about time they get nerfed or outright removed from it. Nor are these types of incentives the answer for factions. Being in factions should be fun and that's why people should join...not for monster ignore or blessings.
I understand Mas. For once, I'm being realistic.

Pets will never get nerfed because tamers will scream bloody murder.

I would be fine if they did away with pet specials in PvP, I would be fine if they cut pet damage in half. In fact, I think it would be great.

I also think it would be fun to revitalize the faction system. Pet fixes and faction changes don't necessarily have to be separate entities, at least IMO.
 

Orvago

Stratics' Finest
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I understand Mas. For once, I'm being realistic.

Pets will never get nerfed because tamers will scream bloody murder.

I would be fine if they did away with pet specials in PvP, I would be fine if they cut pet damage in half. In fact, I think it would be great.

I also think it would be fun to revitalize the faction system. Pet fixes and faction changes don't necessarily have to be separate entities, at least IMO.
Pets do not need nerfed, there just needs to be more ways for non-tamers to be able to compete with them on the battlefield in a more realistic and challenging way for both sides. Whether by new skills, spells, gear (mayhaps make dragon armor give resistance vs dragons?), or other tactical opportunities.
 

TheScoundrelRico

Stratics Legend
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
That should get put on the list then for some bard love.



Thieves could use some love and this could be an opportunity for that.

Hmm, mayhaps some special attack for Thieves/Assassins that can only be made with a dp dragon slayer, kind-of like finding that one spot that is missing a scale on a dragon and piercing it.

Just some thoughts. :)
To be honest, as a thief, I'd rather see our old counter class (detectives) reinvented...la
 
M

Masumatek

Guest
Realistically, I don't think they'll ever do what needs to be done, and I also don't think they'll give us monster ignore again. But if we're going to ask for something, we might as well ask for the right thing.

As for factions, it needs a complete redo. Monster ignore, blessings, or a number of other things the devs could do is not the answer for factions. And as I said, you have to PvM to get the life force to use monster ignore avoid PvMing in PvP. It's temporary. And then you PvM again. If you want to compete in this item-based game, you're forced to PvM/quest/craft enough as it is. But with monster ignore going back in, you'd have to PvM even more to avoid something that shouldn't be in PvP in the first place. No. That's not the answer. I don't want to have to fight monsters to avoid fighting monsters.
 
M

Masumatek

Guest
Pets do not need nerfed, there just needs to be more ways for non-tamers to be able to compete with them on the battlefield in a more realistic and challenging way for both sides. Whether by new skills, spells, gear (mayhaps make dragon armor give resistance vs dragons?), or other tactical opportunities.
Nope. This game is so full of imbalances and imperfection as it is. We need to fix the game before adding more to it. Your solution is adding more potential problems to combat a problem. I think the same of that solution as I do of what some suggest about bolas and dismount...that they're needed in order to combat speed cheaters...No. Remove bolas and dismount from the game. Ban speed cheaters and prevent further cheating. And just nerf the dang pets. They do not belong in PvP. They are greatly overpowered in PvP (and PvM too?). Man, how did the devs (and the players) ever let this game get to where it is now:(.
 
M

MoonglowMerchant

Guest
Realistically, I don't think they'll ever do what needs to be done, and I also don't think they'll give us monster ignore again. But if we're going to ask for something, we might as well ask for the right thing.

As for factions, it needs a complete redo. Monster ignore, blessings, or a number of other things the devs could do is not the answer for factions. And as I said, you have to PvM to get the life force to use monster ignore avoid PvMing in PvP. It's temporary. And then you PvM again. If you want to compete in this item-based game, you're forced to PvM/quest/craft enough as it is. But with monster ignore going back in, you'd have to PvM even more to avoid something that shouldn't be in PvP in the first place. No. That's not the answer. I don't want to have to fight monsters to avoid fighting monsters.
I'm with you. I don't think they will do what needs to be done and I don't think we will get monster ignore again. I also agree that factions could use a revamp.

Having said that, I don't think monster ignore is all that bad. If I could, I would make monster ignore work again. It would work for PvP but not for PvM. This would effectively remove pets from PvP since many people would join factions if it did nothing else but provide a way to remove pets from PvP.

I know you don't like to have to PvM to PvP. I don't care for it myself. You don't have to PvM to get lifeforce for monster ignore though. You can simply kill enemy factioneers and "loot" their lifeforce.
 
F

Fox (Europa)

Guest
GDs were introduced with no explanation, justification or reasoning. In fact there had been loads of moans going on at the time about tamers in PvP and they just seemed a double kick in the teeth for non-tamer PvPers.

I can only assume they were designed by some nub developer as a practice piece and no one else on the team could be bothered to pull them before production.

Its not like PvM needed them either - tamers have for a long time been the easiest template to farm with and adding GDs just made that even easier, as witnessed by their heavy use at events.

The simple answer is to tone them down to just above an ordinary dragon instead of being at least twice as effective. Chances of the dev's giving a damn and doing anything: zero.
 
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