Gargoyle the lesser race???

[aarons6]

i think gargoyles really need to be taken a good look at..

so i figured i wanted to turn my guy into a gargoyle, boy what a huge mistake.

first, they dont get artifacts or vet rewards.. i tried to convert several things into gargoyle.

i do understand the whole gargoyle only thing, that is great, like the elf only thing.. but they should be able to wear everything that isnt tagged..

maybe they should fix this.. they can make some human only stuff.. but come on, wearing and using ONLY gargoyle stuff???

i think they need to make it so gargoyles can wear and use anything in the game that isnt elf only.. then make some things human only.. this would balance out all 3 races.

you get elves that have their own armor, but can wear artifacts and vet rewards..
you get humans that can wear artifacts and vet rewards..

but gargoyles cant.. they have to be converted and you cant convert alot of things..

 

[Maggie]

I agree that gargoyles are the lesser race.

 

[Cetric]

Racist!














Anyway, i agree lol

 

[Ni-]

i think gargoyles really need to be taken a good look at..

so i figured i wanted to turn my guy into a gargoyle, boy what a huge mistake.

first, they dont get artifacts or vet rewards.. i tried to convert several things into gargoyle.

i do understand the whole gargoyle only thing, that is great, like the elf only thing.. but they should be able to wear everything that isnt tagged..

maybe they should fix this.. they can make some human only stuff.. but come on, wearing and using ONLY gargoyle stuff???

i think they need to make it so gargoyles can wear and use anything in the game that isnt elf only.. then make some things human only.. this would balance out all 3 races.

you get elves that have their own armor, but can wear artifacts and vet rewards..
you get humans that can wear artifacts and vet rewards..

but gargoyles cant.. they have to be converted and you cant convert alot of things..

eh, I don't see Gargoyles as a lesser race. They are definately different, I'll give you that.

About the Artifacts, if they fit a slot that Gargoyles can equipt, then they can be altered and worn. Think about it this way, even if Gargoyles didn't need altered items, how do you put a helmet or gloves on a gargoyle with horns or claws? I think it's fine. One item issue that I wish was different is necklaces with mods. Humans/Elves can already wear the PoM and that takes the Gorget slot, so it's not like they could get an extra modded item slot.

I have only made one Gargoyle, but so far I like him. I like not needing a live or ethereal mount to move at mounted speeds. I believe Gargoyles can move at mounted speed with a GD or a 2/3 control slot pet combo. To me, those seem like pretty nice advantages for Gargoyles, along with the few flying only areas.

Throwing is an interesting one-handed, ammoless, ranged skill. The bonus to Imbuing might be ok. I'm sure when Imbuing more intense mods, every little bit helps.

 

[Splup]

Also can gargoyle only arties be converted to humans? nope... But other way around it works.

 

[Konge]

eh, I don't see Gargoyles as a lesser race. They are definately different, I'll give you that.

About the Artifacts, if they fit a slot that Gargoyles can equipt, then they can be altered and worn. Think about it this way, even if Gargoyles didn't need altered items, how do you put a helmet or gloves on a gargoyle with horns or claws? I think it's fine. One item issue that I wish was different is necklaces with mods. Humans/Elves can already wear the PoM and that takes the Gorget slot, so it's not like they could get an extra modded item slot.

I have only made one Gargoyle, but so far I like him. I like not needing a live or ethereal mount to move at mounted speeds. I believe Gargoyles can move at mounted speed with a GD or a 2/3 control slot pet combo. To me, those seem like pretty nice advantages for Gargoyles, along with the few flying only areas.

Throwing is an interesting one-handed, ammoless, ranged skill. The bonus to Imbuing might be ok. I'm sure when Imbuing more intense mods, every little bit helps.

It's the problem that some arties that people may NEED can't be worn, and since there are only 4 armor slots, 2 jewel slots, and two piece of **** slots for the gargs now, if you want a certain mod, you can't have it, for example, some templates require 150 dex, that's not really possible with gargs now. No HLD on glasses, no crimson. And limited artifacts make them the weakest race, specially since it seems like the massive amounts of penalties are making throwing a "meh" skill. Yes I want to make a garg, but right now, they nerfed them TOO much. Hell the only reason I'd make one now is for the abyssal sword and berzerkers chest... Then there's the fact that the Gargoyle crap "armor" jewels" AREN"T MEDABLE.

 

[The Fallout]

they nerfed them TOO much

Nerfing something means it was once good or overpowered, gargoyles were never either lol

 

[HippieMagic]

I made one as well and currently have no idea what to do with it. I guess I will work on making him a thrower...

 

[Hildebrand]

Let's analyze this. Here are the abilities:
1. Flying
* A Gargoyle's powerful wings carry them over land as fast as a galloping horse and grant them access to special Gargoyle-only areas.
2. Berserk
* In situations of great danger, a Gargoyle's natural ferocity will take over, granting speed and power at the cost of defenses.
3. Master Artisan
* A strong cultural emphasis on art and craftsmanship grants the Gargoyles an increased chance to imbue, enhance, and unravel magical items.
4. Deadly Aim
* All Gargoyles are trained from childhood in the skill of Throwing, giving them a basic competence with missile weapons.
5. Mystic Insight
* Gargoyles have an intuitive understanding of Mysticism, allowing them to cast basic Mysticism spells without further training.


Let this sink in my head for a minute and gather my thoughts as to why i'm hesitant to make the switch from human to gargolye.

 

[Hildebrand]

Some have balanced pros and cons.

#1. flying is an obivous benefit PLUS access to garg only area is a huge thumbs up! Con: stamina fatigue
#2. Berserk ... kicks in if low HP AFAIK, which is nice. Con: lowered defenses.
#3. Gets a bonus to imbue.. which any serious Imbuer will definately turn to garg for crafting. Con: none
#4. What? PRO: You get like 30 skill in throwing? How does this help? Does it make me wanna take off my spellbook and arm a boomerang? Unless we are missing something here, this one is lame. No pro, no con. I need to ponder.
#5. So your lowly non Mystic crafter or even a warrior can cast some spells which is sweet! Sorta like how Spellweaving human can cast some nice low spells. Really nice. Con: need reagents and book w/spells.

All are a nice balance actually. Except #5 throwing is mind boggling.
Other cons:
-Can't wear crimson cincture, or mace & shield glasses or hat of magi.
-No Cloaks like Melissa (+5 fire) or quiver of infinity. (garg dont need quiver, but still, loss of +5 dci).
-No snake skin boots or detective boots.
-earrings & necklaces are non-medable by default.
-I have to figure how to compensate for flying fatigue.
-Throwing is way too confusing. I'd rather have archer. It's a let down.
-mana challenged... don't get the human's better mana regen from JoaT, nor Elf's +20 mana
-unknown as to what they can really wear... but will get sorted in time.

Other pros:
-cool new arties & wearables


Suggestion:
A thing about differentiating...
I think gargs should get a bonus in Wrestling. With those claws, instead of paralyze punch, they should get Claw Strike Bleed or something.
Now THAT'S another way of making them unique, and spur yet another dilemma in which skill to choose.

I guess I'm just scared to convert my mage over. I only have 6 slots and they are used. If I go Garg, I can never go back and that will be an expensive mistake. I'd have to spend even more money for a 7th slot. So I'll wait and see what more info we find.

 

[Shamus Turlough]

I converted one of my Tamers and both crafters to gargoyles, and one of my warriors so she can throw.

I will not be converting my pvp mage (kasa, inquis, crystalline ring+mage weap, CC, vet robe/cloak, too many things I cant replace as a garg).

 

[Kiminality]

This thread pretty much includes all my views on gargoyles.
Essentially, I think in the effort to make them different from the existing races, yet still balances, they've been backed into a rather awkward corner.

 

[guum]

Some have balanced pros and cons.

#1. flying is an obivous benefit PLUS access to garg only area is a huge thumbs up! Con: stamina fatigue
#2. Berserk ... kicks in if low HP AFAIK, which is nice. Con: lowered defenses.
#3. Gets a bonus to imbue.. which any serious Imbuer will definately turn to garg for crafting. Con: none
#4. What? PRO: You get like 30 skill in throwing? How does this help? Does it make me wanna take off my spellbook and arm a boomerang? Unless we are missing something here, this one is lame. No pro, no con. I need to ponder.
#5. So your lowly non Mystic crafter or even a warrior can cast some spells which is sweet! Sorta like how Spellweaving human can cast some nice low spells. Really nice. Con: need reagents and book w/spells.

You mention some of the other cons elsewhere in your post, but I just wanted to comment on a couple of these. #1 Flying - how is this in any real way a pro? You can't actually "fly", and the gargoyle areas didn't exist before SA, so basically content has been created to force players into using gargoyles (if they want to access that content) -- it's of no use for old content. Furthermore, gargoyles can't use regular mounts, including such stalwarts as Cu Sidhes, Fire Beetles, Blue Beetles, and Hiryus. And then, there's the stamina thing. To my mind, flying is nothing but a con as implemented.

#2 Berserk - Maybe there's a use for this, but personally I'd hate to be losing DCI every time my health got low. Seems like a pretty big con to me.

#3 Imbuing - Same as #1, really. I mean, yes, having an imbuing bonus makes me feel like I need to have a gargoyle imbuer (since that last property is all but impossible to imbue with a human), but it feels more like extortion than a "bonus" -- there's no other reason for my crafter to be a gargoyle, and a lot of reasons for him to *not* be one.

Anyway, yeah I'm down on gargoyles. I really wanted to have one, but there's just too many cons and not enough pros.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Some of the gargoyle-only artifacts are jaw-dropping. And I've seen gargoyle armor dropped on the ground that would make me droll if it were for humans or elves.

And let me add....for once they make something that is not over-powered right out of the starting gate, and we complain?

When elves came out, almost everyone wanted to be an elf. You were openly laughed at if you kept your character human. These days, the pendulum's swung back the other way. Nothing changed, except our thinking. We rethought and re-conceptualized, and came out with a different answer about what the "best" player race was. The same thing could easily happen for gargoyles one day.

The main map in this game is still Britannia, and that's the human map and, to a lesser degree, the elf map. Even if humans are dominant over the other races....I'm ok with that.

-Galen's player

 

[wrekognize]

Good! Not everyone in the game should be flying around as a gargoyle on day 2. I find it refreshing when I log on to not see 30 gargoyles throwing. It should take time for us to find what is best to be worn in their kingdom. They have handled the expansion perfectly in this regard.

 

[Anon McDougle]

I too was shocked when i changed my pally warrior on Napa into a gargolye suddenly my all 70's ssuit was useless all my millons of dollors of equipment trash so what did i do i went to public soul forge and spammed for a crafters help and guesss what now i am again all 70s with a leet weapon !!

 

[Konge]

Some of the gargoyle-only artifacts are jaw-dropping. And I've seen gargoyle armor dropped on the ground that would make me droll if it were for humans or elves.

And let me add....for once they make something that is not over-powered right out of the starting gate, and we complain?

When elves came out, almost everyone wanted to be an elf. You were openly laughed at if you kept your character human. These days, the pendulum's swung back the other way. Nothing changed, except our thinking. We rethought and re-conceptualized, and came out with a different answer about what the "best" player race was. The same thing could easily happen for gargoyles one day.

The main map in this game is still Britannia, and that's the human map and, to a lesser degree, the elf map. Even if humans are dominant over the other races....I'm ok with that.

-Galen's player

it's not the fact that they're not gimped, it's the fact that honestly, theres no real reason to be one besides aestetic purposes. i really want to make a gargoyle, and I probably will... JUST for the looks and artifacts. Is no one else upset that the only reason to use a gargoyle is their array of artifacts not because they do something better, making them ideal for a certain class or style of play? And yes, I think everyone knows that gargoyle armor has higher base resists, but they loose the arties that go in 3 slots, and the once awesome replacement of helm and gorget with imbued earings and necklaces are replaced with worthless armor versions which have low base resists, are not medabable and ruined one of the benefits/trade offs that made a gargoyle an option . Oh, you could have slightly more skills or hci/dci ECT if you choose gargoyle but you loose 3 arty slots, crimson, and Boots... Hmmmm. Now it's "Oh, you loose 3 arty slots, half your clothing slots keep a half-assed archery replacement, get the 2 worst armor replacments in the game... Oh. Yeah, you also have the skill equivilent of 100 ninjitsu without the skill and it takes longer to do so... GO MAKE GARGOYLES! Also we toned down Imbuings % rate increase to where there's barely a difference.... Go team!

 

[Wahnfried]

Gargoyle is daemonic race and have biger body, BUT...

Less than human:

Stamina and Mana regeneration - human have 20 focus and meditation skill from "jack of all trade". Gargoyle necessary to have 40 focus skill like "jack of all trade".

MaxWeight - that's necessary to increase 20 from human.

Less than elf:

Mana and Max energy resist - that's necessary to increase 20 Hits and increase 5 pysical or fire resist max.


Berserk abilitie:
It's penalty! It is like hurrying up to death. Divine Fury is usefull because full stamina regeneration. Please add enough stamina and mana regeneration to Berserk abilitie.

 

[Norrar]

For those who did turn garg and regret it...

Those Race Change Tokens?

Gargoyle uses, can become human or elf.
Elf uses, human or gargoyle.
Human uses, gargoyle or elf.

 

[guum]

For those who did turn garg and regret it...

Those Race Change Tokens?

Gargoyle uses, can become human or elf.
Elf uses, human or gargoyle.
Human uses, gargoyle or elf.

Really? That's good.

I'd hold off though for a bit...gargoyles are so patently underpowered right now that I have to think the devs are going to do some work on them. I wouldn't blow a token until either that happens or the devs say "we think gargoyles are fine".

 

[aarons6]

can you change back with quests too??
also what is this imbuing bonus really?
give me a number..

i know using the public forge is supposed to give +1% chance at something. i havent really rested it.. will go now.

edit tested..
i took a 4 mod jewel and went to add max lrc, at home 14.2% chance. at forge 16.2% chance.. so using the public forge is a good idea ad high properties.

 

[Coragin]

Ahh mid-maxing

 

[Norrar]

.

I did some testing with imbuing at the three different kinds of forges. Trying to add 1 damage increase yielded these results.

Human: 20 Skill

House- 86.2 Chance 0% Bonus
City- 88.2 Chance 2% Bonus
Palace- 92.2 Chance 6% Bonus
____________________________________________________
Gargoyle: 20 Skill

House- 94.8 Chance 0% Bonus
City- 97 Chance 2.2% Bonus
Palace- 101.8 Chance 6.2 % Bonus

Actual bonus for gargoyle at each forge is this. (because of racial bonus)

House- 8.6% Bonus
City- 8.8% Bonus
Palace- 9.6% Bonus


Also, to use the Soul Forge in the Queens Palace requires Noble Status. So if you want to use that forge for your imbuing, you'll have to get 10,000 Loyalty Points.

 

[Zayin666]

.

Also, to use the Soul Forge in the Queens Palace requires Noble Status. So if you want to use that forge for your imbuing, you'll have to get 10,000 Loyalty Points.

Which takes arround 1 hour if you kill Toxic Sliths and just leave the loot

 

[aarons6]

.

I did some testing with imbuing at the three different kinds of forges. Trying to add 1 damage increase yielded these results.

Human: 20 Skill

House- 86.2 Chance 0% Bonus
City- 88.2 Chance 2% Bonus
Palace- 92.2 Chance 6% Bonus
____________________________________________________
Gargoyle: 20 Skill

House- 94.8 Chance 0% Bonus
City- 97 Chance 2.2% Bonus
Palace- 101.8 Chance 6.2 % Bonus

Actual bonus for gargoyle at each forge is this. (because of racial bonus)

House- 8.6% Bonus
City- 8.8% Bonus
Palace- 9.6% Bonus


Also, to use the Soul Forge in the Queens Palace requires Noble Status. So if you want to use that forge for your imbuing, you'll have to get 10,000 Loyalty Points.

wow i had no idea changing to a gargoyle had such a big bonus. when they were talking about it they made it seem small.
so almost a 10% bonus from human of the same skill with using the queens forge?