[Throwing] Garg Sampire so effective it's boring!

[curlybeard]

I found this gargoyle Sampire template to be very effective in PvM.

115 Throwing
115 Swords (legendary gives you a HCI bonus with 140 dex, i think)
100 Tactics
100 Anatomy
115 Bushido
100 Necro
70ish Chiv

(can fit healing if you want with some +skill items and lowering tact to 90 and anat to 60)

Swords allows you to hit nearby and adjacent targets, with your throwing weapon, without a hit chance penalty at 115 skill. This ability is the primary benefit of throwing, a skill that is at once both ranged and melee. Also, even though throwing weapons are one handed, you don't want to use a shield due to the high associated penalties to HCI and DCI discussed elsewhere.

Momentum strike is your friend in areas with high spawn. Typically the champ/boss is at at a distance, with the spawn adjacent. You will hit both.

Use a soul glaive with 30 SSI and a bezerkers breastplate (additional 10% SSI) and have Dex set at 140. Throw in max Hit Mana Leech and you will never want for mana either, given the massive damage this template does.

Stacking 100% DI, Slayers, EoO, lightning strike critical hits, and perfection will take you to the 300% damage cap easily. It is not uncommon to hit a single critter for 250+ (50 life leeched in vamp form) or two critters for 400+ with momentum strike.

 

[Garm The Green]

I can't see how this can be so?

At 120 tact/anat and 140 dex/str 40% SSI 0% DI these are the stats given by stratics:

Soul Glaive
Base 18 - 22
Damage 51 - 63
Speed 4
Swing delay 2.00
DPS 28.5

If you factor 300% DI of base and take max values is as below:

66 (300% DI max) + 63 (Max hit) = 129

http://uo.stratics.com/content/arms-armor/arms.php

I hope I' wrong - would love to see such silly numbers, but surely this would be achievable with a cross bow, and nearly so with an ornate?

Sounds fun mind.

Can you provide screenies to make me dribble?

Hoping my maths is messed up - congrats if it is!

garm.

 

[curlybeard]

225

Just flew down to the abyss and found the nearest renowned rat to grab a quick screenie. I wasn't able to honor it, so the damage is a bit low. (with perfection I do about 200 damage with 250+ crits on these, not include hit spell).

Modifiers in effect were: Enemy of One, 87% DI (didn't have my bracelet), Slayer (Vermin), Consecrate Weapon, Lightning Strike

Will try to grab some screenies of Navery tomorrow and see if I can get some of the 400+ (total) damage momentum strikes.

 

[Garm The Green]

I'm glad my math is off!

Cheers for posting the screeny - makes your gargoyle seem quite appealing - I'm so fed up of archery!
I used to be able to do 200 damage using a reptile slayer o-dachi so i guess it makes sense, but i just can't get it to show on that stratics calc - any ideas? How does the stratics calc work then?

Do those momentum strikes just do the 400+ on the second critter?

Nice to see somebody is making a thrower work for them

 

[quig]

Hmm interesting...may have to try this.

 

[Connor_Graham]

I can do the same thing with an ornate axe against the renowned rats with my elf....

 

[Garm The Green]

...but surely this would be achievable with a cross bow, and nearly so with an ornate?

Aye, but that fact that throwing is working, is an interesting one... )

 

[Stupid Miner]

Soul Glaive
Base 18 - 22
Damage 51 - 63
Speed 4
Swing delay 2.00
DPS 28.5

Hm, just noticed, those are about the exact same stats as the pre-patch Wildfire bow.
Except the bow does 19-22.

... Interesting...

I can do the same thing with an ornate axe against the renowned rats with my elf....

True, but that's not ranged.

I used to be able to do 200 damage using a reptile slayer o-dachi so i guess it makes sense, but i just can't get it to show on that stratics calc - any ideas? How does the stratics calc work then?

Oh I know, I know! It doesn't work! As far as i've been able to tell.
... if anyone could point me in the direction of the correct formula, that'd be handy.

 

[Connor_Graham]

True, but that's not ranged.

He does have Swords on his template though. I'm sure my archer could do the same with a crossbow or heavy crossbow, and I could always toss Swords on him. I think gargs are still too weak equipment wise to play a good sampire. A renowned rat isn't exactly Lady Mel or Grizzle now, is it? rolleyes:

 

[Farsight]

I haven't played with the template, but I have crunched the numbers.

The soul glaive at max SSI/max stamina is slightly less effective than an ornate axe, only because the ornate axe can swing at 1.25 while the soul glaive gets to a mere 1.5 seconds per swing (max SSI + berzerker's breastplate + turquoise ring + 180 stamina).

Nothing an archer can do even compares to the damage per second of a gargoyle.

So the advantage of the gargoyle is only in that you don't have to get close while being only slightly less effective than an ornate axe wielding sampire.

At any less than 45% SSI and 180 stamina, the cyclone is a better weapon choice for DPS and can be out-damaged by a number of mace and swords weapons (diamond mace, gnarled staff, rune blade, bladed staff, ornate axe, two handed axe, etc). But it's still better than any bow.

Again, only number crunching and theory.

 

[Connor_Graham]

Nothing an archer can do even compares to the damage per second of a gargoyle.

Not even with a 50 SSI heavy crossbow, 5 SSI ring, and 175 stamina?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I agree with Farsight, I recently crunched what must've been similar numbers, in terms of highest base damage and factoring in the max possible swing for each Ornate Axes are top (even without LJ), then Soul Glaive, then Bardiche/War Hammer, then Crossbow, then Heavy Crossbow.

The problem with Throwing however is that when you change targets, or move and stop to swing, it doesn't fire straight away like Archery does which gives it the feel like its not doing what it says on the tin. Continual swinging is (afaik) correct with it though.

Also, Swords doesn't give you a HCI bonus it just negates up to half of the HCI close quarters penalty. 120 Swords being 50% of the penalty, 150 Dex being the other 50%, which is pretty hard to maintain against casters. As is the 150 Str for max range for the same reason.

Still viable though (as you obviously know), just have the usual gargoyle things to put up with. No mount, halfed leeches, Berserk etc etc.

 

[Garm The Green]

He does have Swords on his template though. I'm sure my archer could do the same with a crossbow or heavy crossbow, and I could always toss Swords on him. I think gargs are still too weak equipment wise to play a good sampire. A renowned rat isn't exactly Lady Mel or Grizzle now, is it? rolleyes:

True, there wouldn't be much point in this plate for soloing, but as a DPS in doom/spawns could be great.
The difference to an archer or archer with swords is you have melee capability without switching weapons and so could imagine the playstyle may be lot more fluid and flexible. Jack of all trades, master of none, or a wonderful balance - i guess that'd up to the puppet master?

If you could fit parry on there, maybe it would have some decent PVP potential, bridging the gap between melee and arch - range with evasion sounds awesome to me, though I'm so out the loop PVP wise, I have no idea how it would work in practice or how the template would need to be tweaked to allow for evasion/parry.

BTW I'm loving this thread, wonderful to discuss something new, other than necro sammies!

 

[Garm The Green]

Still viable though (as you obviously know), just have the usual gargoyle things to put up with. No mount, halfed leeches, Berserk etc etc.

Sry i don't have s/abyss - what the heck is this about 1/2 leeches?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Sry i don't have s/abyss - what the heck is this about 1/2 leeches?

Hit Leech properties are out of a set %. The number on the weapon, as well as being the frequency it goes off, are a roll out of these set %'s.

For melee the set %'s are Stamina 100%, Mana 40%, Life 30%.

For Archery and Throwing, because they're ranged, those leeches are halfed, so Stamina is out of 50%, Mana is out of 20% and Life is out of 15%.

Sorry the way I wrote that made it sound like it was something to do with gargoyles. The half leeches applies to ranged weapons.

 

[[JD]]

Does that leech halving apply to the throwing weapon itself, or ONLY when the throwing weapon is thrown?

Is there a list of SA Gargoyle artifacts somewhere along with their bonuses?

 

[curlybeard]

Also, Swords doesn't give you a HCI bonus it just negates up to half of the HCI close quarters penalty. 120 Swords being 50% of the penalty, 150 Dex being the other 50%, which is pretty hard to maintain against casters.

"7. If you have 120 swords and your dexterity is 140 or higher, you get a little treat for specializing so heavily in throwing in close-quarters combat. Not only do you have no penalty at all while in melee range, but you get a 5% bonus to hit chance in melee range."

That quote is from the History of Throwing Changes posted by Stupid Miner here:

 

[curlybeard]

Hit Leech properties are out of a set %. The number on the weapon, as well as being the frequency it goes off, are a roll out of these set %'s.

For melee the set %'s are Stamina 100%, Mana 40%, Life 30%.

For Archery and Throwing, because they're ranged, those leeches are halfed, so Stamina is out of 50%, Mana is out of 20% and Life is out of 15%.

Sorry the way I wrote that made it sound like it was something to do with gargoyles. The half leeches applies to ranged weapons.

Just did a quick imbuing test and the max leech for stam, life, and mana is 50%, but it is scaled by weapon speed. So 50% for a 4s Soul Glaive and 25% for a 2s Boomerang. This appears to be half of the max for melee weapons of similar speed, though honestly I am never mana limited.

 

[curlybeard]

If you could fit parry on there, maybe it would have some decent PVP potential, bridging the gap between melee and arch - range with evasion

You hit on what is one of the main limitation of throwing. That link I posted to Stupid Miner's Throwing History has this formula for the HCI and DCI:

"Shield Penalties
All the throwing weapons are one-handed in nature which allows the Thrower to equip a shield or other item in their off hand. In order to provide balance to Gargoyles using shields, where archers can’t, the player will suffer a Defense and Hit Chance penalty for using a shield while using a throwing weapon.

These penalties can be offset by investing skill points into Parrying. The formulas below describe how to calculate the Defense and Hit Chance reductions based on the Parrying skill of the player.

Defense Chance Reduction

* 100 – ((ParryingSkill / 100) * 60)


Hit Chance Reduction

* 100 – ((ParryingSkill / 80) * 40)"

As you can see this is a pretty severe penalty even at 120 Parry. Without the artifacts to overcome this penalty, using a shield is fairly pointless."

 

[[JD]]

Also wanted to add although ornate axe can do the similar damage, it's 2 handed, so you can't chug pots. although you can always use an automatic disarm, chug, re-arm macro.

actually the soul glaive does MORE dps than ornate, given the proper SSI and sta. the problem is I don't know if you can achieve it. which is why I'm asking about a list of gargoyle artifacts.

 

[curlybeard]

http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/uo/uoherald/other/Publish60Notes.pdf

Garg artifacts list starts on page 11.

Breastplate of the Berzerker (Gargish Platemail Chest)
HP: 5
Stamina Regen: 3
LMC: 4%
SSI: 10%
DI: 15%
Physical Resist: 18%
Fire Resist: 16%
Cold Resist: 5%
Poison Resist: 11%
Energy Resist: 5%

Giant Steps (Gargish Stone Leggings)
Str: 5
Dex: 5
HP: 5
HP Regen: 2
DI: 10%
Physical Resist: 10%
Fire Resist: 18%
Cold Resist: 4%
Poison Resist: 8%
Energy Resist: 12%

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Just did a quick imbuing test and the max leech for stam, life, and mana is 50%, but it is scaled by weapon speed. So 50% for a 4s Soul Glaive and 25% for a 2s Boomerang. This appears to be half of the max for melee weapons of similar speed, though honestly I am never mana limited.

Thats not what I'm refering to.

"Hit Stamina Leech - Each time the weapon hits, it will do its normal damage. Then the weapon restores 100% of the damage dealt as Stamina to the weapon's wielder. The displayed percentages are the percent chance to cast the effect. Note: No Stamina is actually removed from the target.

Hit Mana Leech - Each time the weapon hits, it will do its normal damage. Then the weapon restores up to 40% of the displayed percentage of the damage dealt as Mana to the weapon's wielder. Note: No Mana is actually removed from the target.

Hit Life Leech - Each time the weapon hits, it will do its normal damage. Then the weapon restores up to 30% of the displayed percentage of the damage dealt as Hit Points to the weapon's wielder. Note: No Hit Points (beyond the actual weapon damage) are actually removed from the target."

http://www.uoherald.com/guide/guide.php?guideId=57

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Does that leech halving apply to the throwing weapon itself, or ONLY when the throwing weapon is thrown?

What?

It applies to Hit Leech properties on ranged weapons. It may not apply when Throwing is being used as close quarters but idk.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

actually the soul glaive does MORE dps than ornate, given the proper SSI and sta.

No it doesn't.

Ornate Axe (3.5s) can have 30 SSI, you can also have 5 SSI on a Turquoise Ring, 5 SSI on a Jade Armband, 10 SSI on a Daiymo's Helm. With 180 Stamina and 35 SSI you can swing the Ornate Axe at 1.25s, the cap. The base damage is 18-20.

Soul Glaive (4s) can have 30 SSI, you can also have 5 SSI on a Turquoise Ring, 5 SSI on a Jade Armband, 10 SSI on Berserker's Breastplate. Even if you had 180 Stamina and 60 SSI you can only swing the Soul Glaive at 1.5s. The base damage is higher at 18-22, but as it isn't being applied every swing (or more accurately every 1.25s like the Ornate) it falls behind.

 

[Stupid Miner]

I haven't played with the template, but I have crunched the numbers.

The soul glaive at max SSI/max stamina is slightly less effective than an ornate axe, only because the ornate axe can swing at 1.25 while the soul glaive gets to a mere 1.5 seconds per swing (max SSI + berzerker's breastplate + turquoise ring + 180 stamina).

Nothing an archer can do even compares to the damage per second of a gargoyle.

So the advantage of the gargoyle is only in that you don't have to get close while being only slightly less effective than an ornate axe wielding sampire.

At any less than 45% SSI and 180 stamina, the cyclone is a better weapon choice for DPS and can be out-damaged by a number of mace and swords weapons (diamond mace, gnarled staff, rune blade, bladed staff, ornate axe, two handed axe, etc). But it's still better than any bow.

Again, only number crunching and theory.

Pre-patch Wildfire: 19-22 damage, 4s, comes with +10 Archery, +20 Fire resist, and 15% Velocity.
Can imbue two properties on it. (SSI and ML come to mind)

Pre-patch Windsong: 14-16 damage, 3 second speed, comes with 35% DI and 25% Velocity.

Wildfire has fewer properties, but potentially better damage.
Windsong isnt as strong, but very easy to imbue.

 

[Stupid Miner]

For Archery and Throwing, because they're ranged, those leeches are halfed, so Stamina is out of 50%, Mana is out of 20% and Life is out of 15%.

They're able to have a maximum LL and ML of half what a Melee weapon would have. I don't think it would further cut the effect in half, since that would quarter it.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

They're able to have a maximum LL and ML of half what a Melee weapon would have. I don't think it would further cut the effect in half, since that would quarter it.

I haven't said it further cuts it in half. What you quoted is WHY its halfed in the first place.

*again* I'm not talking about the number on the weapon, anything, ranged or not, can have whatever number on the weapon depending on base speed and SSI, it is STILL out of the other number, it is THAT other number that is halfed for ranged, which is WHY ranged weapons leech half as well as melee.

 

[Garm The Green]

You hit on what is one of the main limitation of throwing. That link I posted to Stupid Miner's Throwing History has this formula for the HCI and DCI:

"Shield Penalties
All the throwing weapons are one-handed in nature which allows the Thrower to equip a shield or other item in their off hand. In order to provide balance to Gargoyles using shields, where archers can’t, the player will suffer a Defense and Hit Chance penalty for using a shield while using a throwing weapon.

These penalties can be offset by investing skill points into Parrying. The formulas below describe how to calculate the Defense and Hit Chance reductions based on the Parrying skill of the player.

Defense Chance Reduction

* 100 – ((ParryingSkill / 100) * 60)


Hit Chance Reduction

* 100 – ((ParryingSkill / 80) * 40)"

As you can see this is a pretty severe penalty even at 120 Parry. Without the artifacts to overcome this penalty, using a shield is fairly pointless."

Ypu wouldn't use a shield though - just go with a 1 handed weap - can you not parry *with* the throwing weap - it's bladed after all.

I could see this being an issue for a warrior, but not a sammy? Surely it's just the same as using eg:a soulseeker, keeping the other hand free for pots/healing stones etc?

 

[Garm The Green]

I haven't said it further cuts it in half. What you quoted is WHY its halfed in the first place.

*again* I'm not talking about the number on the weapon, anything, ranged or not, can have whatever number on the weapon depending on base speed and SSI, it is STILL out of the other number, it is THAT other number that is halfed for ranged, which is WHY ranged weapons leech half as well as melee.

Dude thanks for the word about leeches.

Basically for eg a soul seeker:

40% of hits leech 100% damage in stamina averaging 40% damage per hit returned in stamina
30% of hits leech 40% damage in mana averaging 12% damage per hit returned in mana
30% of hits leech 30% damage in stamina averaging 9% damage per hit returned in life

Ranged weapons would half the latter value so that a "ranged" soul seeker would experience:

40% of hits leech 50% damage in stamina averaging 20% damage per hit returned in stamina
30% of hits leech 20% damage in mana averaging 6% damage per hit returned in mana
30% of hits leech 15% damage in stamina averaging 4.5% damage per hit returned in life

more lovely number crunching )

Cheers dude!

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

"7. If you have 120 swords and your dexterity is 140 or higher, you get a little treat for specializing so heavily in throwing in close-quarters combat. Not only do you have no penalty at all while in melee range, but you get a 5% bonus to hit chance in melee range."

That quote is from the History of Throwing Changes posted by Stupid Miner here:

Ah thats probably right then. Sorry, I just thought you were talking about the other thing, didn't know they'd added that.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Cheers dude!

Thanks.

 

[Farsight]

Pre-patch Wildfire: 19-22 damage, 4s, comes with +10 Archery, +20 Fire resist, and 15% Velocity.
Can imbue two properties on it. (SSI and ML come to mind)

Pre-patch Windsong: 14-16 damage, 3 second speed, comes with 35% DI and 25% Velocity.

Wildfire has fewer properties, but potentially better damage.
Windsong isnt as strong, but very easy to imbue.

Heh, I learned something new.

Then again, I saw one of these pre-patch wildfire bows for the first time yesterday. It was imbued with SSI and spider slayer (for Navery) and seemed to be very effective. Hits as hard as the crossbow I took along, but shot faster.

Now I want one!

 

[[JD]]

No it doesn't.

Ornate Axe (3.5s) can have 30 SSI, you can also have 5 SSI on a Turquoise Ring, 5 SSI on a Jade Armband, 10 SSI on a Daiymo's Helm. With 180 Stamina and 35 SSI you can swing the Ornate Axe at 1.25s, the cap. The base damage is 18-20.

Soul Glaive (4s) can have 30 SSI, you can also have 5 SSI on a Turquoise Ring, 5 SSI on a Jade Armband, 10 SSI on Berserker's Breastplate. Even if you had 180 Stamina and 60 SSI you can only swing the Soul Glaive at 1.5s. The base damage is higher at 18-22, but as it isn't being applied every swing (or more accurately every 1.25s like the Ornate) it falls behind.

According to Stratics weapon calc, 180 STA and 70 SSI will accelerate a Soul Glaive to cap, at which point it out damages the Ornate. But, I don't know what the max SSI a Garg can obtain.

Can you enhance a weapon to 40 SSI just like a bow, or bows only?

And is Berserker's Breastplate and Turqoise Rings the only other Gargoyle SSI item?

 

[Zalan]

Keep in mind that SSI is capped at 60. One would have to have 60% SSI & a minium of 210 Stamina to reach the 1.25 Swing Cap. Don`t believe that their is anyway to get to the 210 Stamina.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

According to Stratics weapon calc, 180 STA and 70 SSI will accelerate a Soul Glaive to cap, at which point it out damages the Ornate. But, I don't know what the max SSI a Garg can obtain.

Can you enhance a weapon to 40 SSI just like a bow, or bows only?

And is Berserker's Breastplate and Turqoise Rings the only other Gargoyle SSI item?

The max SSI a gargoyle can obtain is what I just said 50.

SSI is capped at 60.

Throwing weapons are Metal so can't be enhanced with Wood.

Berserker's Breastplate is gargoyle only. The Ring & Brace are not.

 

[Smoot]

the ranged is a nice perk, but your missing out on the huge benefits of whirlwind attack, as well as parry. I know some people use bushido just for lightning strike, but, like you said yes that is boring. When you counterattack maybe every 4 hits thats a huge bonus to single target dps, and, well, i just couldn't play a pvm vampire without seeing the blurs of red coming from 20 monsters being killed around me, and all giving me life.

 

[Cmcgrade]

Question... do the other wep skills besides swords give the bonus to throwing????

 

[NickyDishes]

225

Just flew down to the abyss and found the nearest renowned rat to grab a quick screenie. I wasn't able to honor it, so the damage is a bit low. (with perfection I do about 200 damage with 250+ crits on these, not include hit spell).

Modifiers in effect were: Enemy of One, 87% DI (didn't have my bracelet), Slayer (Vermin), Consecrate Weapon, Lightning Strike

Will try to grab some screenies of Navery tomorrow and see if I can get some of the 400+ (total) damage momentum strikes.

tactics and anatomy are the only things that increase damage beyond 300 cap......no matter if u honor or not with a slayer and enemy of one i found my damage to be the same.

 

[RaistlinNowhere]

interesting thread, only 1 thing to add, max SSi for a garg is 55 (ssi ring, jade armband, new cloak and berserker plate) 5 + 5 + 5 + 10 = 25 + 30 from weapon = 55

 

[Obsidian]

tactics and anatomy are the only things that increase damage beyond 300 cap......no matter if u honor or not with a slayer and enemy of one i found my damage to be the same.

Doesn't strength also factor into the damage equation?

-OBSIDIAN-

 

[Stupid Miner]

interesting thread, only 1 thing to add, max SSi for a garg is 55 (ssi ring, jade armband, new cloak and berserker plate) 5 + 5 + 5 + 10 = 25 + 30 from weapon = 55

Jade armband isnt ideal.

Turq ring, Cloak, Berserker plate, and Divine Fury
5+5+10+10+30=60

and ranged weapons can have +25 DCI to help offset the Divine Fury Penalty

 

[Speedy Orkit]

What high damage fence would you advise in leu of ornate? I use the leaf blade because I use it for Navrey/Medusa for the feint

 

[Connor_Graham]

The leaf blade is the option you'd use in place of an ornate.

 

[NickyDishes]

Doesn't strength also factor into the damage equation?

-OBSIDIAN-

Yes i beleive so...someone lemme know if im wrong