Finally looking at changes to my Sampire

[NuSair]

With Dragon*Con over and things settling down, I've decided to finally look at what should I change about my sampire with the changes to Chivalry.

I made this post recently and decided to look at going that direction:

I've been toying with the idea of completely removing Chivalry from the template I play and looked at what it would take to replace.

Like Lynk says, the only real downside is when you face a creature without a slayer.... depending on how hard that creature is to begin with.


Anatomy 120
Bushido 120
Necromancy 99
Parry 120
Tactics 120
Weapon 120

Leaves like 21 points....

So, taking a real close look at Chivalry spells...
Cleanse by Fire- as a Sampire, don't ever really worry about poison.
Close Wounds- I've used it rarely- honestly more to heal someone else than myself.
Consecrate Weapon- Probably the most used Chivalry spell. Can be circumvented using elemental weapons. Downside is having to carry like 10 weapons.
Dispel Evil- Never used it as a sampire.
Divine Fury- Probably my 2nd most used Chiv spell. A little harder to get around, pots can get around the stamina issue, but there are times the SSI bonus is useful as well.
Enemy of One- If you have a specific slayer, you don't need honor or EoO. If you have a major slayer, then you need honor, and you'll be at the cap. If there is no slayer... yeah, that's a problem, but other than Neria, what do you kill as a sampire that doesn't have a slayer that is hard to kill?
Holy Light- Don't use
Noble Sacrifice- Honestly, I hate the idea of not being able to rez- if I keep Chiv, this would probably be the reason.... sad, isn't it?
Remove Curse- If you run out of apples....
Sacred Journey- Charges in Runebook make this expendable.

more later.... time to farm Medusa.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

I will probably get laughed out of the discussion because I don't play a Sampire....I do, however, player other kinds of PvM dexers.

I feel weirdly obligated to point out some things.

-Why would it be said that you would regret not being able to rez someone? Nothing sad at all about wanting to rez someone. There are plenty of social and practical reasons why being able to is quite a good thing.

-Remove Curse doesn't have the apple timer.

-Dispel Evil is awesome, but in the kinds of boss fights you do as a Sampire I can understand why you wouldn't miss it much, if at all.

However, overall....I've never felt that the power of the Sampire was related to Chivalry very much, if at all. I'm very surprised I haven't heard of more Sampires taking Chivalry out of their templates entirely.

I have a non-Chiv, non-Sampire Samurai; I don't miss Chiv much at all. Once in a great while when I'm fighting something with high resists and I'm having a very bad streak when it comes to Lightning Strike's Critical Hits. (It's then that Consecrate would come in handy.) But that isn't often.

Ironically the time I miss it most-regularly is against Bound Souls from the Corgul! And I always feel a little silly for missing it.

-Galen's player

 

[NuSair]

I will probably get laughed out of the discussion because I don't play a Sampire....I do, however, player other kinds of PvM dexers.

Not me. I appreciate any constructive discussion on the subject.

-Why would it be said that you would regret not being able to rez someone? Nothing sad at all about wanting to rez someone. There are plenty of social and practical reasons why being able to is quite a good thing.

The idea of a Sampire, much like an ABC, is to deal as much damage as possible in order to leach the most possible so you can stand there and tank something (or a whole lot of somethings). At least, to me, that is the idea. To have a skill on a character for the SOLE reason to rez someone, while socially a good thing, takes away from the efficiency of the template.

-Remove Curse doesn't have the apple timer.

True- but really, as a sampire, the only curse I am ever worried about is blood oath. And unless it's a doom run, I rarely run into that.

-Dispel Evil is awesome, but in the kinds of boss fights you do as a Sampire I can understand why you wouldn't miss it much, if at all.

I fight pretty much everything on my sampire... other than revs, what use is dispel evil?

However, overall....I've never felt that the power of the Sampire was related to Chivalry very much, if at all. I'm very surprised I haven't heard of more Sampires taking Chivalry out of their templates entirely.

A Sampire is all about maxing out damage. Chivalry is helpful in that aspect. But given the changes, I think it's important to look at alternatives. If you have a specific slayer, you don't need EoO or Honor, if you have a Super Slayer and can get honor, you don't need EoO. If you don't NEED EoO, then you have to question if you NEED Chivalry at all. Because every other Chivalry spell that you use as a Sampire has a work around.

I have a non-Chiv, non-Sampire Samurai; I don't miss Chiv much at all. Once in a great while when I'm fighting something with high resists and I'm having a very bad streak when it comes to Lightning Strike's Critical Hits. (It's then that Consecrate would come in handy.) But that isn't often.

Ironically the time I miss it most-regularly is against Bound Souls from the Corgul! And I always feel a little silly for missing it.

-Galen's player

I've been using Chiv on all the melee/archery characters I've had since it's introduction. And I am finding it a little hard to let go atm, I have to admit. Plus, given the changes to Parry--- I like the idea of keeping 120 parry.

After I watch some football today, I am thinking that Yoda will be losing his Chivary and I'll be heading to do some champ spawns.

I think, in the end, the spell I will miss the most is Divine Fury.

 

[Obsidian]

Since pub 71, I started running:

120 Mace Fighting
100 Bushido
100 Chivalry
100 Tactics
100 Anatomy
100 Parrying
100 Necromancy

I use AI from my War Axe nearly non-stop so I don't miss the reduction in LS effectiveness. My chance to parry a blow is only reduced by a small amount. I still get the full weapons specials mana reduction. I still can hit the 300% damage cap without a slayer on my weapon. I don't miss momentum strike as a mace wielder due to the Black Staff's whirlwind. So far I like this new template. It is cheaper to build without a 120 bush ps and I can now rez others (which I could not before).

 

[semmerset]

No chiv
Do you fight only slayer monster?

After stagy abyss(imbuing),I discussion my friends.
Only champion spawn,non slayer monster is Neira and barracoon(human)
If a thing with a small damage is disagreeable, you do not do it.
Or you can do it,but we think its slow.
So no chiv is no problem.

By the way
Can no chiv sampire kill shimmering effusion and night terror(new monster)?
I think no chiv sampire can not kill them or very hard.

No chiv sampire is strong for slayer monster than chiv sampire.
But no chiv sampire is weak to non slayer monster.
I think that no chiv sampire is strong but not general-purpose.

 

[NuSair]

Since pub 71, I started running:

120 Mace Fighting
100 Bushido
100 Chivalry
100 Tactics
100 Anatomy
100 Parrying
100 Necromancy

I use AI from my War Axe nearly non-stop so I don't miss the reduction in LS effectiveness. My chance to parry a blow is only reduced by a small amount. I still get the full weapons specials mana reduction. I still can hit the 300% damage cap without a slayer on my weapon. I don't miss momentum strike as a mace wielder due to the Black Staff's whirlwind. So far I like this new template. It is cheaper to build without a 120 bush ps and I can now rez others (which I could not before).

I thought about that... I've also considered adding skills to my jewelry and using potions to make up the loss of the strength/dex I get from them (16 strength / 6 dex).

The problems I have are this:
The difference in parrying between 100 and 120 is 10% one handed and 11% 2-handed, which is significant enough to make me notice.
The difference in damage between 100 and 120 with Anatomy/Tactics is a total of 22.5% (10% Anatomy and 12.5% Tactics). That is damage modifiers that is not (along with the bonus from Strength) counted against the cap, and is not capped.

Anatomy
100-55%
120-65%

Tactics
100-68.75%
120-81.25%

Strength (included just for completeness)
(Strength * 0.3) + 5
100-35%
150-50%

And those increases are applied to the weapons base damage before the damage modifiers (if I remember what Logrus posted correctly http://vboards.stratics.com/1978572-post58.html ).

So, for a leafblade... the difference would be....
Base 13-15
Strength 50% / 100 Tactics 68.75% / 100 Anatomy 55% (173.75%)
35-41

Base 13-15
Strength 50% / 120 Tactics 81.25% / 120 Anatomy 65% (196.25%)
38-44

300% DI from items/spells would be:
105-123
114-132

Hmmmm, while it is a difference, it is not as much as I would have thought. Might need to relook at somethings....

If you are fighting a creature which has no slayer and you don't get honor, Chivalry is of great use....

For something I was almost sure of.... not to sure atm... need to do more digging.

 

[Shelleybean]

Here is another idea you might try - removing or lowering parry so that you can raise chivalry. I originally got the idea from Duku in the new player forum: http://vboards.stratics.com/15096-post27.html I'm not as uber as other players on the forums, but I do ok with 120 fencing, 120 bushido, 100 tactics, 100 healing, 100 anatomy, 100 tactics and 80 chiv (110 with jewelry.)

 

[Klapauc]

So, for a leafblade... the difference would be....
Base 13-15
Strength 50% / 100 Tactics 68.75% / 100 Anatomy 55% (173.75%)
35-41

Base 13-15
Strength 50% / 120 Tactics 81.25% / 120 Anatomy 65% (196.25%)
38-44

300% DI from items/spells would be:
105-123
114-132

Hmmmm, while it is a difference, it is not as much as I would have thought. Might need to relook at somethings....

If you are fighting a creature which has no slayer and you don't get honor, Chivalry is of great use....

For something I was almost sure of.... not to sure atm... need to do more digging.

Your numbers are a bit off because you forgot to include 100% di from items.

Leafblade, 120 tactics, 120 anatomy, 125 str is 50-58 base, 150-174 cap
Leafblade, 100 tactics, 100 anatomy, 125 str is 47-54 base, 141-162 cap

Thats less then 5 points of damage after resists, and only noticable if you go for chain ai.

Same goes for parry, 10% will not make much difference here as the rng likes worst case scenarios to much. Nothing that kills you.

Sure one can somehow do most or all spawns without chiv if you got the right weapons and have some points in spiritspeak.
But having chiv makes things so much easier, personally i rather do something else in game then grinding elemental damage weapons for every purpose.

 

[Klapauc]

Since pub 71, I started running:

120 Mace Fighting
100 Bushido
100 Chivalry
100 Tactics
100 Anatomy
100 Parrying
100 Necromancy

I use AI from my War Axe nearly non-stop so I don't miss the reduction in LS effectiveness. My chance to parry a blow is only reduced by a small amount. I still get the full weapons specials mana reduction. I still can hit the 300% damage cap without a slayer on my weapon. I don't miss momentum strike as a mace wielder due to the Black Staff's whirlwind. So far I like this new template. It is cheaper to build without a 120 bush ps and I can now rez others (which I could not before).

115 Bushido, 85 parry gives nearly the same parry chance and you get momentum strike.

 

[NuSair]

personally i rather do something else in game then grinding elemental damage weapons for every purpose.

Actually, most of my elemental weapons come from monster loot.

 

[Obsidian]

115 Bushido, 85 parry gives nearly the same parry chance and you get momentum strike.

True, but I like the flexibility of swapping out 100 parry or 100 anatomy in the base template for for 100 SS, 100 Resist, or 100 Healing as necessary for the task at hand.

 

[aarons6]

the changes to chiv isnt all that game breaking.
my sampire has 71 chiv.. at 71 chiv you get like 85% chance of CW and like 38% DI with EOO.. thats pretty much enough to hit the 300% cap without a slayer wep with 110 tacts and 100 di and perfection.

110 tacs, 75%
125 str, 42.50%
DI, 100%
EOO, 38%
perfection 50-100% (you do miss)
= 305-355% WITH NO SLAYER


120 swords
120 bushido
110 tactics
100 resist
100 parry
99 necro
71 chiv

with this build i can swap out if i want (have all the skills on stones)
100 ss for the resist so i can roll in wraith form or
swap 120 swords, 100 parry and 99 necro for
120 archery 100 anatomy and 99 healing for abc archer.

 

[CorwinXX]

thats pretty much enough to hit the 300% cap without a slayer wep with 110 tacts and 100 di and perfection.

STR/Tactics/Anatomy/Equipment DI bonuses are used to calculate Adjusted Weapon Damage (which you see on your paperdoll) and are not counted to Skill Cap.

 

[Galingree]

STR/Tactics/Anatomy/Equipment DI bonuses are used to calculate Adjusted Weapon Damage (which you see on your paperdoll) and are not counted to Skill Cap.

I understood from the publish that you would get the full bonus (50%) from EoO with 80 chivalry. But this is not correct. I have now 80 chivalry and I get 44% only. So for reaching the 300% cap without a slayer you need more than 80 chiv. Correct?

 

[CorwinXX]

About damage and damage cap:

So, my belief = I have a base weapon damage of 18-22 on my soul glaive.

Then I have 100% increase from my equipment, plus strength bonus, plus anatomy bonus, plus tactics bonus. My displayed damage is 66-81.

So, with EoO, honoring, and slayer, AND when using AI, I should hit for between 198 and 243. When testing, all of my hits were in this range.

When I had only EoO and slayer, AND when using AI, I should hit for between 165 and 203. This was also true in testing.

When I used slayer only and with AI, I should hit between 132 and 162. Again, this was true in my testing.

I'm probably wrong somewhere, but my tests seem to support my theory.

 

[CorwinXX]

p.s. This was posted before Chivalry changes. So instead of "50%" for EoO put your number (depends on your Chivalry).

As I've understood this data EoO + Super Slayer will not give you 300% even at 120 Chivalry skill (will be 264%).

 

[Obsidian]

I understood from the publish that you would get the full bonus (50%) from EoO with 80 chivalry. But this is not correct. I have now 80 chivalry and I get 44% only. So for reaching the 300% cap without a slayer you need more than 80 chiv. Correct?

Yes, you need 100 Chiv for 50% EOO. Hence my template posted above.