I am focusing my reply on the above because I consider it as the most important matter of the issue.
I think that probably we hold different opinions (which is fine in a free country and environment, I guess...or should I say I hope.... ?) on what are the basis of a discussion and its evolution.
I think sometimes people mistakes a "discussion" with an "interrogation".
Well, let's just clarify that matter so that it's no longer confusing.
discussion
an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., especially to explore solutions; informal debate.
discussing
to consider or examine by argument, comment, etc.; talk over or write about, especially to explore solutions; debate:
interrogation
the act of interrogating; questioning.
interrogating
1. to ask questions of (a person), sometimes to seek answers or information that the person questioned considers personal or secret.
2.
to examine by questions; question formally:
Now, based on your frequent pattern of:
1. Ask a question you already know the answer to.
2. Receive an answer.
3. Discuss (ie: insult, berate, or deliberate endlessly regardless of lack of change in the answers received, as typically are the cases with you) the answers ad nauseum (Latin, roughly for, "Until I'm nauseated").
The following theorem can be postulated:
Popps is the one confusing an interrogative with a discussion.
Question --> Answer = end of the story is NOT, in my most humble opinion, a discussion AT ALL.
Okay... let's pretend you have a humble opinion... the point doesn't change that your initial inquiries aren't meant as a discussion, they're meant as a method by which to have an argument to which you believe you hold the only correct answer to, and said correct answer is the only viable option that should be the case.
It is merely, simply and only an interrogation. Where is the bus stop ? Twenty yards down straight. Question --> Answer = end of the story.
Okay, but to use your example, let me illustrate it in a manner in which you -- personally -- perform it.
Popps (to himself): I already know where the bus stop is.
Popps (out loud): Where is the bus stop?
Passerby: Twenty yards down straight.
Popps: That doesn't make sense, it's not very convenient.
Passerby: Perhaps, but that's where it is.
Popps: Why don't they move it?
Passerby: I don't know... probably because it's at an intersection which makes crossing the street more safe.
Popps: That's idiotic. I would never cross a street to catch a bus. Why don't they move it?
Passerby: Attend a town council meeting and suggest it.
Popps: I don't have time to do that. They should just move it! Why don't they move it?
Passerby: I've got to go now.
Popps: Why don't they move it?
Now, see, Popps, if you intend something to be a discussion, and not just some sort of rhetorical masturbatory interrogative nightmare that pisses people off because it's post #999,258,321 from Popps this week, might I suggest:
Popps: You know, I was recently considering the bus stop down the street, and I was thinking, they should move it down a little bit. Sure, it would be closer to my house, thus making it easier on me, but here's the added benefits: First, there are several business nearby who might gain an increase in business due to more localized foot traffic; second, the area is better lit, thus giving a better sense and reality of safety; and third, I see many people who don't even know the bus stops at the far corner, and they hike two blocks in the other direction to catch a different line.
If you want to have discussions, FRAME THEM as discussions. Don't frame them as questions to which you supposedly don't know the answer to, and make sure you present your initial suggestions up front.
See, here's the thing... when something is framed as a question on a discussion board, people typically take that to mean, "I need information." When they provide it to you and you then react to them negatively, and start beating them over the head with your opinions on a matter you pretended to know nothing about, people get tired of it.
It's ALL about the initial presentation.
And I think you'd find a few more people ready and willing to discuss things with you in that framework.
A Discussion, instead, is way, but way different and can lead to many open ended paths because it evolves, it develops. It has a start but is open ended.
This is what I personally see a free and democratic discussion to be.
Well, okay, first, you can drop "free and democratic" from the thinking. That invariably leads to "I have a first amendment right to be a jackass," which no one has. Second, while the developers sometimes do (though not often enough, if you ask me) listen to their playerbase, there's very rarely anything democratic about the process.
As for a discussion leading to open ended paths, sure... but not if they're couched in a deceptive manner from the get-go. Don't start with a question, start with an issue, provide your viewpoints and/or suggestions, and then, if there's something you don't quite have an answer for or would like further input on, say, "And while I'm thinking this way, could some of you please let me know how you feel about it?"
Save "How does X system work?" for a situation in which you truly don't know how said system works, and for which you've truly looked for an answer.
A Forum were different people holding different opinions on a given matter confront their different opinions in a civil manner and go from there with the discussion evolving, taking a life of its own.
Q.V.: Your own posts. They are often far from civil. Saying something with "polite words" doesn't make it civil. If I tell someone that their opinion smells of bovine excrement, it might sound nicer than "bull****," but it certainly isn't any more civil.
Now, let's take a couple of examples here:
From
another thread:
Other than Bosses spawn or champs/mini champs, is there a regular spawn in the game where players can have a feeling of accomplishment to have cleared the area of threats ?
So far all I have found is spawns which are ever lasting. Killed some more will come, endlessly.
I am trying to find some spawns where a player can actually clear an area from threats, at least for some time before the area starts filling up again.
Is there any such spawn other than the bosses' spawns or the Champ and mini Champ spawns which end with the killing of the Boss or Champ or Renowned ?
Several posts later, you post:
What I am trying to say, is that I think that a game as vast as ultima Online perhaps should be able to cater hunting not interested in farming more than what is currently available. That is why I was trying to make a list of those spawns which a player can deal with, that give some sense of accomplishment because one can actually enjoy a cleared out and pacified area, at least for some time.... Of course the spawn has to restart at some point, that is perfectly undertandable, but at least for a reasonable time, the spawn will be off, leaving the player able to enjoy the pacified area.
Why not start off with saying what you were trying to say rather than ask it in terms that made you seem like (1) you didn't have a clue, and (2) was intent on a discussion in which you would then
later reveal your true motivation in posting?
From a thread
where you asked about fishing quests:
I see, now trying to discuss the bettering of the game we play brings home these replies ?
Perhaps it would help more discussing the issue I am raising up offering one's own point of view ?
At least, if it makes sense to see Ultima Online improved and made a better game to play....
You belittle Galen's response to your post which wasn't snide (but which your response was), and while you did provide some suggestions in your initial thoughts, your initial post is quite reminiscent of the "I've got the right answer, this isn't really a discussion, but here, discuss" technique you frequently use.
You then ask about
rares in another thread, and while talking about "rares," you point out that there are more "rares" in the game than regular items, which is a silly assertion, but I digress... You seem to have been lost on the concept of a rare item. If there are only 50 of something in existence and then two days later, someone else makes 10 of a completely different item, both are rares. Yeah, there's now 60 rares in game, but that doesn't make Rare A and Rare B any less rare.
But here's the kicker... you present it all in a manner that isn't a discussion, isn't offering suggestions, it's just a massive troll aimed at "rares."
I could spend all evening analyzing your posts, but the point is, I know you've been told much of this stuff before in various shapes, sizes, and forms from other posters, moderators, and so forth.
You don't care. You just continue to plunge along making thread after thread after thread after thread to the point where most people don't want to discuss the time of day or ask you how the weather is for fear that you'd simply respond, "Is that on a 24-hour clock or a 12-hour clock, and what's the point of an digital clock anyway? The Egyptians got by on a sundial long before the analog clock, but I can see the point of an analog clock!" or "I've noticed that when it's raining outside that I can't seem to get UO to load. Why haven't the developers done something about this issue?"
This is the beauty of a Discussion, the open ended paths, the evolution of the talking, the confronting different and most various opinions in a civil manner.
It is NOT, I repeat, in MY most Humble opinion, a Question --> Answer = end of the story thing.
Right... except you don't really want open ended paths. You want people to agree with you wholeheartedly.
I mean, yeah, I can be codgerly as well, but on the other hand, I'll have discussions with people to explore different viewpoints. Personally, I think Morgana LaFey's crusade for a Classic Shard is a bit silly at this point, and she certainly falls back on the quintessential "You're a trammie" argument far too often, but she and I have had discussions where not only do I agree with the concept she's hoping for in a more perfect UO environment, but where she has also agreed with me.
Sure, we all have our days, but your days are more often "If you don't agree with me, you're an idiot." Sure, you don't come right out and say it, and you somehow believe that makes you more civil... but certainly, belittling others, regardless of highbrow language, lowbrow deception, or points in between, is not a discussion.
So, please, when we talk about DISCUSSIONS on "Discussion Forums" do not come to me and bring the argument that an answer closed the argument because if that question was open ended and involved a "discussion" an answer might end it but might also NOT end it and this is why Discussions are a pillar of democracy and freedom, because they maintain the freedom to an open ended evolution.
Never did. You don't typically discuss. See the entire rest of this post again if you don't understand the difference.
That's of course, my humble and personal opinion and I can understand that others might or not agree with it.
That's probably the crux of it, Popps... you don't
ever have a
humble opinion about anything. Which is fine. You're not required to. But don't use fallacy to hold your straw men up at arms.
Now that I've wasted several minutes of my life that I suspect were entirely in vain, I must off to do something more productive. Like watch my lawn grow. Here's hoping though, truly, and honestly, that some small nugget of this gets through to you, Popps. I'm fond of discussion, debate, civil argument, and the likes.
Radian so much right now. Very, very well and accurately put.