Dragons....a force to be reckoned with?

[bordegan]

So I'm use to killing dragons in a 2-3 hits when collecting leather...

I made an insane suit and decided to try out destard on test center today... All I can say is good job and that every dungeon should be beefed up like that! I actually had to worry about a dragon killing me, instead of the mindless target..walk up...hit...hit...dead....loot... You actually have to watch your health with em now I love it!

 

[imported_Coldren]

<blockquote><hr>

All I can say is good job and that every dungeon should be beefed up like that! I actually had to worry about a dragon killing me, instead of the mindless target..walk up...hit...hit...dead....loot... You actually have to watch your health with em now

[/ QUOTE ]

So before this patch goes live, better collect that leather! 'Cause as soon as it does, it's going to be much, much harder to obtain.. Especially for those of us who couldn't quick-kill a dragon in a super suit before, already had to watch our health, and it wasn't mindless.

 

[Anim]

WWs are still a good spot to collect barbed leather. They have very low fire so they die quick.

 

[bordegan]

<blockquote><hr>

WWs are still a good spot to collect barbed leather. They have very low fire so they die quick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aye

Also Hiryus aren't to shabby to kill for leather, they don't cast magic either. Main reason I went to destard was the ability to leave my packy outside the dungeon in a relatively safe location. I will probably still farm leather from destard just for the fun of it! I only get the leather for myself anyways.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

All I can say is good job and that every dungeon should be beefed up like that! I actually had to worry about a dragon killing me, instead of the mindless target..walk up...hit...hit...dead....loot... You actually have to watch your health with em now

[/ QUOTE ]

...Especially for those of us who couldn't quick-kill a dragon in a super suit before, already had to watch our health, and it wasn't mindless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was thinking of players with lower skills here... It seems that there are fewer options for PvM players who want to build skill. Destard was always a very challenging area for newer players. It's also a good area to build taming skill and technique. Will it be now?

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[Guest]

Does the idea of newbies training up on dragons seem odd to anyone else?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Does the idea of newbies training up on dragons seem odd to anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

YES.

Back in the day when I had to walk 2 miles in the snow and fear headless. Training on dragons was never an option. But that was back in the day.

Maybe UO is being reborn and order is coming back.

 

[AdamD]

Did a developer ever answer the question as to why monster hit points were halved when AOS came out?
I don't ever remember reading why that was done, but that was an odd thing to do, imo.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Did a developer ever answer the question as to why monster hit points were halved when AOS came out?
I don't ever remember reading why that was done, but that was an odd thing to do, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pre-AOS players did different amounts of damage to other players and monsters. That was eliminated so their hit points were lowered. But it destroyed the balance many monsters had.

 

[kennykilleduo]

Yes , Some areas should be alot harder than they are.

Offtopic , But deceit needs its spawn lowered , but Lich's and higher up monsters need a beef up..

 

[AdamD]

Ahh
Just didn't make a lot of sense to me, as they brought in Chivalry with AOS, which added huge damage amounts to weapons, especially slayers, so once grand monsters like white wyrms/dragons and anything at that level, were and are, killable in seconds (Perhaps not so much the newer dragons now though)

 

[kennykilleduo]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Did a developer ever answer the question as to why monster hit points were halved when AOS came out?
I don't ever remember reading why that was done, but that was an odd thing to do, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
Pre-AOS players did different amounts of damage to other players and monsters. That was eliminated so their hit points were lowered. But it destroyed the balance many monsters had.

[/ QUOTE ]


Does the UO community like this or not?

 

[Guest]

Sheesh.

I remember when Earth Elementals were a challenge!

Now any old newbie with a kryss can kill them in three swings.

 

[Babble]

I think it was done for the right damage conversion.
Before AOS magic did double damage to monsters and not to humans.

I still think they converted crappily with too much damage dealt.

 

[Garaba]

Back then players did two different sets of damage, PvP and PVM damage. They streamlined the system so you did the same damage to both. However this meant that players where doing about half as much damage to monsters. So monster HP was cut in half to compensate.

 

[imported_Coldren]

<blockquote><hr>

Does the idea of newbies training up on dragons seem odd to anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

No one skill trains on a Dragon. (Raising SKILLS)

The PLAYER training on a dragon is something different. Learning how to kite tough monsters in tight areas, conserve mana, keep out of aggro of other things that might kill you, etc.

I do farm for leather in Destard with my almost-fully developed mage character (Minus uber gear and PS's, of course). I'm not very good on my mage, so this is where I went to learn. Maybe it should be the last stop, not the first.

So maybe if someone can just tell me where I can get it easier than in a den of nothing but dragons, it won't be so bad.

 

[imported_Sarphus]

except when dragons didn't attack on sight... I brought along a foot stool when I tamed my first dragon. It took me 45 minutes.

My first drake battle was more interesting. I grouped up with 2 other guys. I was a warrior with approximately 70's skills. I was with a powerful grandmaster mage (he was also a Gm blacksmith!) and some other guy. We bum rushed the mighty beast and the mage basically killed it. The drake killed me pretty fast

I love the idea of powerful dragons... If I had thought of this idea, I would have posted it on ideas den immediately. I don't think I've been this excited about an upcoming change in years.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

<blockquote><hr>

Does the idea of newbies training up on dragons seem odd to anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems odd to me that you are replying to my post when I specified players with lower skills. I did not say newbies. Were you intending to reply to someone else?

-Sam

 

[AdamD]

Ahh, sweet, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Dol'Gorath]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Does the idea of newbies training up on dragons seem odd to anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems odd to me that you are replying to my post when I specified players with lower skills. I did not say newbies. Were you intending to reply to someone else?

-Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

Players with lower skills have no reason to be in a higher level area to begin with. So Jeremy's reply was appropriate.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

<blockquote><hr>

Players with lower skills have no reason to be in a higher level area to begin with. So Jeremy's reply was appropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'm going to let Jeremy clarify her post. Thanks. And... Destard is not a "high level area."

The original question I posted remains... If you want to fight a more powerful dragon then you can fight an Ancient Wyrm... or even take on the Paragon version in Ilshenar.

Bumping up Dragons in Destard just removes an area for mid-level warriors and trainers to work their skills.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[Llewen]

There are tons of places to train skills and get loot for newer characters. Most of them never see any traffic. A dragon should feared, not something you train on, or farm for leather. I love this change, definitely the thing I am looking forward to more than anything I have looked forward to in UO since I came back a little over two years ago.

I actually had a blast taming a few of these on TC. Lead taming was never my strength, but it is fun to see that I've even managed to improve in that area of my game as a tamer, although my fire resist isn't nearly as good on my main character, so it will be a challenge.

 

[Guest]

Dragons should be even more powerful with a sweeping breath attack.

Id love the DEVS to create the first ongoing event.

1 to 3 dragons land randomly, and kill.

anywhere and anytime.

Give them the ability to sweep a fire attack too.


Simple.

Sometimes it will be in a remote area or it could be Brit.

Crank up the realm.

 

[imported_Spiritless]

You're missing the point frankly. Jeremy's post was unambiguous, I fail to see what you need "clarified."

Dragons are not a suitable creature for players with "lower skills" to be killing. Dragons used to be considered a very high-end creature, and rightfully so. This status dwindled for many reasons; people will cite AoS and the damage/hp modifications as one reason I guess. Other people may cite the fact that a dragon's ability to switch targets was removed from them too.

This change is attempting to put them back as a high-end creature. High-end creatures are intended for high-end and fully trained characters. People with "lower skills" shouldn't be able to train from dragons as casually as they can right now. That's really the crux of it.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

<blockquote><hr>

...1 to 3 dragons land randomly, and kill. anywhere and anytime... ...Sometimes it will be in a remote area or it could be Brit.


[/ QUOTE ]

I love that idea. I always wondered why creatures that can fly spend all their time in a cave.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[Stigmatas]

<blockquote><hr>

Does the idea of newbies training up on dragons seem odd to anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

LAWL..

Zinger!

 

[Guest]

You did actually say "newer players" - just riffing on that. It was an actual question, too, from my "Jeremy as crusty old-timer" persona

 

[Smokin]

Not sure where to post this but the new dragons do not give barbed leather when skinned and really for how hard they are the loot sucks.

I think they should be tweaked down a little and use only 4 control slots. The main reason for the 4 control slots will be for stabling issues.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

<blockquote><hr>

You're missing the point frankly. Jeremy's post was unambiguous, I fail to see what you need "clarified."

[/ QUOTE ]

Um... she replied to my post... not yours. Her reply seemed to imply that I was talking about "newbies" which I wasn't. I'm seeking a clarification from her not you or anyone else.

Do you claim to know what she meant when she replied to my post?

Ahh... just as I was reviewing my post she replies. Yes, I did say "newer players".. but also prefaced that with "players with lower skills." I DID NOT say "newbies." I agree... Dragons and "newbies" dont mix.

Minor point and I accept responsibility for the miscommunication but personally I object to calling first-time players "newbies." It's used in a derogatory way so often I just avoid it.

I was talking about how this would impact players who are below GM skill that wish to train. Fighters and Tamers find Destard very challenging and a great place to build skills.

The 70's suit uber-players may have become bored with killing dragons. Those folks have always had the option to go deeper in Destard to fight the Ancient Wyrm... and Shadow Dragons. Or, even to venture to Ilshenar and go for a Paragon Ancient Wyrm.

So... I put this out... considering that Ancient Wyrm and Shadow Dragons already exist... explain please why regular Dragons need a boost?

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[uo addict]

Was the loot any better?

 

[Smokin]

Gold was more and had more gems the loot was more so its possible but it looked crappy to me. I did not use luck though.

 

[imported_Sarphus]

<blockquote><hr>

Not sure where to post this but the new dragons do not give barbed leather when skinned and really for how hard they are the loot sucks.

I think they should be tweaked down a little and use only 4 control slots. The main reason for the 4 control slots will be for stabling issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we already have enough 4 slot pets. I've been begging for a 5 slot tameable for a while, so I'm really quite happy that there are 5 slotters now. I'm in llewen's boat. This change has me more excited than anything in uo in several years. If the dragons were made into 4 slot pets, the change would be humdrum and wouldn't add nearly as much to the tamers in general.

Remember, just because this pet exists doesn't mean that you need to have one. There are plenty of viable pets to run. This one just fills a niche.

 

[imported_Spiritless]

There's a subtle difference between a "newbie" and a "n00bie" or "noob." New players are newbies. Old players can have newbie characters. It isn't derogatory to use the term "newbie" for these situations. It just implies they, or their character, is new. That's just factual. Let's not start becoming politically correct about these terms now.

"nOOb" or "n00bie" are recognized as intentionally offensive, however.

Dragons needed a boost because they were weaker than intended. They were much stronger back in the day and, as I said, have had their status reduced to 2-3 hit kills for many who hunt there in the advent of AoS. For this reason, I believe the update to make them stronger and make encountering a dragon more perilous is a good thing. I don't believe non-GM characters have a place killing dragons; I believe it is right that they are made a high-end creature which require a fully trained and equipped character to fight effectively.

There are many, many more training locations that are much more appropriate for non-GM characters to hone their abilities.

Take care.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

<blockquote><hr>

There's a subtle difference between a "newbie" and a "n00bie" or "noob."... Let's not start becoming politically correct about these terms now.

"nOOb" or "n00bie" are recognized as intentionally offensive, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can call them whatever you want. I'm not trying to PC police you. All I said was I avoid using that term... "It's used in a derogatory way so often I just avoid it."

I dont know how strong Dragons were intended to be... things in this game flip-flop so often I wonder if anyone knows how anything is intended to be.

You're not the only one to suggest there are other areas for a sub-GM character to train... but so far nobody has made any suggestions for anyplace better. Destard has proximity to vendors, healers, low spawn outside the cave and as someone trains fighting they can also get leather/gold/jewels. Also, Destard is an excellent place to learn fighting tactics and Dragons help build magic resistance as well as healing, etc.

And... you nor anyone else has explained this... if you find that Dragons aren't that much of a challenge then why don't you upgrade to Ancient Wyrm, etc. This game has tons of stuff for high level solo players and Guilds.

Folks who are casual players and aren't able to play with large guilds deserve a challenge too.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[GarthGrey]

<blockquote><hr>

I actually had to worry about a dragon killing me, instead of the mindless target..

[/ QUOTE ]

So who's actually twisting your arm making you kill dragons in 2-3 hits, mindlessly, over and over? And who's making you use what is in all likelyhood the best weapon and armor you own, to do it?

 

[imported_mr.blackmage]

game mechanics and human nature?

 

[imported_Spiritless]

<blockquote><hr>

I dont know how strong Dragons were intended to be.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you played before AoS, you'd have a good idea.

<blockquote><hr>

You're not the only one to suggest there are other areas for a sub-GM character to train... but so far nobody has made any suggestions for anyplace better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Despise (EEs, Ettins, Ogres, Ogre Lords, Lizardmen), Shame (Air Elementals, Evil Mages, EEs, Gazers, Poison Elementals, Dull Copper Elementals), Blood Dungeon in Illshenar (Demons), Wrong (Controllers, Juka, Brigands, Golems), Covetous (Harpies, Stone Harpies, Gazers, Lichs, Water Elementals).

List could go on and on, frankly. Don't try and paint Destard as the only location on the shard that people can train in just because you personally haven't played in a climate which requires you to get a little creative with where you hunt and train in case a PK comes around the corner and takes all your loot and gear (read: before Trammel/Siege.)

<blockquote><hr>

if you find that Dragons aren't that much of a challenge then why don't you upgrade to Ancient Wyrm, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you think this is about people not feeling challenged enough, you've already demonstrated how much you've missed the point right there. The change is to bring the dragon's difficulty in relation to their loot back into proportion and, once again, make them a formidable creature again in their own right. Dragons were intended to be strong creatures. Dragons were strong creatures. Dragons had their strength cut in half when people started doing crazy damage and their HP was reduced after AoS. Their loot was actually INCREASED post-AoS. Dragons are now being fixed so they're not an easy kill for a large amount of cash, even for characters still in training. Simple imo. Players won't look for new challenges when they can get large amounts of gold and gems for minimal effort at the dragon spawn.

@GarthGrey:
<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I actually had to worry about a dragon killing me, instead of the mindless target..

[/ QUOTE ]

So who's actually twisting your arm making you kill dragons in 2-3 hits, mindlessly, over and over? And who's making you use what is in all likelyhood the best weapon and armor you own, to do it?

[/ QUOTE ]
The loot:difficulty ratio.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

<blockquote><hr>

...If you think this is about people not feeling challenged enough, you've already demonstrated how much you've missed the point right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im pointing out that there are other challenges and making a change to Dragons is unnecessary.

As for you recommendations... Ettin? Most of the stuff you listed wouldn't be enough of a serious challenge for a character trying to bridge the gap between the 80's and GM. Im not saying Destard is the only place to build skills. But is is one of the best ones for that difficulty range.

As for this remark:
...because you personally haven't played in a climate which requires you to get a little creative with where you hunt and train in case a PK comes around the corner and takes all your loot and gear (read: before Trammel/Siege.)

You have no idea how long I've been playing this game.

My point is this: Here we have EA making another change that just opens the gap between the Haves and Have-Nots. Those that can get the good weapons and armor may sweat a bit more when they are faced with a sudden spawn in Destard. Those players who cant afford the top level equipment and who are building skill, already find this area to be an exciting challenge and now they will be excluded.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[imported_mr.blackmage]

did you miss the part where the dev teams intention intention was to buff up legacy creatures to their pre-aos levels? You are acting like this is an end of the world change and people won't know what to do, but I'm pretty sure they will just go to another place if they can't handle the spawn. And "top level" equipment to kill a dragon takes 20k and vendor browsing.

 

[bordegan]

<blockquote><hr>

Does the idea of newbies training up on dragons seem odd to anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes...very.

 

[Sam the Scribe]

<blockquote><hr>

..You are acting like this is an end of the world change and people won't know what to do...

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont see where I've been acting like that at all. I'm making an observaton. So, the Devs decided to turn Dragons back up to pre-AOS. Why? Just because? Were they bored? There is nothing else important for them to do?

Sure folks that are no longer able to fight Dragons will find something else to do. Just like the Miners that dont want to deal with Blackrock ele's will do something else.

Maybe someone should think about the casual players who have just enough time to log in and burn off some steam after work. It's a game. Im saying that opportunities for these players are being taken away.

This is my original post in this thread:

<font color="blue"> Was thinking of players with lower skills here... It seems that there are fewer options for PvM players who want to build skill. Destard was always a very challenging area for newer players. It's also a good area to build taming skill and technique. Will it be now?

Safe Travels, Sam
</font>

See that... no predictions of the world ending... Never said Destard was the only area folks could train...

Now I need you to put up a pic of your paperdoll wearing 20k armor and weapons that you can take a Dragon with. Perhaps you are on a different shard, but I'm on Atlantic. 20k isn't going to get you anything. No gimmies now. You either have to get it all as loot, or buy it.

Safe Travels, Sam

 

[bordegan]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Does the idea of newbies training up on dragons seem odd to anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems odd to me that you are replying to my post when I specified players with lower skills. I did not say newbies. Were you intending to reply to someone else?

-Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

Either way "players with lower skills" shouldn't be able to work dragons...thats why you build up to being able to kill them. You can't just start a character and then automatically expect to be able to start killing dragons and the higher end spawn...

I think them beefing up dragons is the best thing. Players with lower end skills have a LARGE variety of other places to work and gain their skill..... Oh and I call players with lower end skill newbies too....there is nothing wrong with that....

 

[bordegan]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Players with lower skills have no reason to be in a higher level area to begin with. So Jeremy's reply was appropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'm going to let Jeremy clarify her post. Thanks. And... Destard is not a "high level area."

The original question I posted remains... If you want to fight a more powerful dragon then you can fight an Ancient Wyrm... or even take on the Paragon version in Ilshenar.

Bumping up Dragons in Destard just removes an area for mid-level warriors and trainers to work their skills.

Safe Travels, Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

Ancient wyms were a push over too.... There are some creatures in this game that shouldn't be able to be killed so easily....ancient wyrms and dragons are one of them.....who are you to say destard is not a "high level" area? Please refer me to a dev's post stating this or somewhere on the uo website?

All destard is atm is a bunch of people farming leather and fighting over kills...I went there a few times to go get leather and people were killing them so fast that they started taking other people's kills (mine)....this pub works out perfectly for me...

 

[Sam the Scribe]

I have already addressed every point you made in your post in replies to other players.

 

[Guest]

oh great..i have enough trouble with ancient wyrms on tmaps as it is...now they are gonna really give me trouble...hehe...this should be interesting in the quest for my treasures now.

 

[bordegan]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

...If you think this is about people not feeling challenged enough, you've already demonstrated how much you've missed the point right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im pointing out that there are other challenges and making a change to Dragons is unnecessary.

As for you recommendations... Ettin? Most of the stuff you listed wouldn't be enough of a serious challenge for a character trying to bridge the gap between the 80's and GM. Im not saying Destard is the only place to build skills. But is is one of the best ones for that difficulty range.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok there is ALL of Ilshenar, despise, shame, hythloth, tokuno lands, deceit, coveteous, lost lands, daemon temple, doom, peerless dungeons. I could cover the spawns for you but you can just go look at the stratics hunter guide...I'm also pretty sure I'm missing some places as well.....

 

[bordegan]

<blockquote><hr>

Maybe someone should think about the casual players who have just enough time to log in and burn off some steam after work. It's a game. Im saying that opportunities for these players are being taken away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a casual player, I work 5 days a week...work my second job on weekends...and when I get off I want to blow off steam just like you...there are tons of things to do in this game...

 

[Sam the Scribe]

Here is what I actually said:
<font color="blue">Im not saying Destard is the only place to build skills. But is is one of the best ones for that difficulty range.
</font>

Again... never said Destard was the only place just a really good one for many reasons that will be lost to a certain player class if Dragons are changed.

My simple comments seem to have generated a lot of excitement in this thread. I'm gonna retire from this thread though as having to constantly correct mis-quotes really doesn't advance the discussion. It's just me having to come back over and over and say... "where did I say that?"

Here is my first post to this thread:

<font color="blue">Was thinking of players with lower skills here... It seems that there are fewer options for PvM players who want to build skill. Destard was always a very challenging area for newer players. It's also a good area to build taming skill and technique. Will it be now?

Safe Travels, Sam
</font>

 

[Surgeries]

Jeremy...you may have answered this already...but...

What about Paragons?

Can a Beefed Up Dragon now become a Paragon Beefed Up Dragon, in Illshenar?

*Shudders*

*Smiles*

That could make an Illshenar Cold Blood Spawn a mighty sticky wicket!!!

I bet Leurocian knows that one...

 

[Guest]

I prefer training mid range chars on gamans.

If you find someone who does the horn quest alot you can sell the horns for 500-1000gp per. Or go get the rest of the items and get some mighty fine loot ^^

I bought a ring off Sounder from the boards for ALOT of money (IRs and a HoM when they were about 15$) out of one of those boxes.