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Do you ever feel that UO has turned into a virtual mafia state?

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a slave girl

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I do, but I'm one person and I've been told I'm too idealistic. The reason why I feel this way is that it seems the RMT brokers have UO in a choke hold. An example of this is the over inflated prices of items. For example the small soulforge that drops from Scalis. On a low population shard this item runs about 100m. This is unattainable for the casual player. So they are forced to go to RMT brokers.

Also I have noticed that certain players get away with things. A high percentage of those are RMT brokers. Well if nothing else I'd say art is imitating life. I mean in RL if you got enough money you can get away with anything, even murder. (Remember OJ?) Why should it be any different in UO, right?

I'm not gonna apologize for my views. If you don't agree that's okay. You are free to reply with your views.





"So they are forced to go to RMT brokers."




No they are not.

If you buy things for cash then don't come here calling the RMT UO "workers" (as opposed to UO players) names.

Just stop supporting them with your dollars and they will go away and get real jobs.

There is no requirement in UO that in order to be able to play the game you must purchase items that cost 100 million gp.

I'd guess that UO imitates real life to some degree in the possession of resources: 1% of the earth's population controls 99% of its resources.

This means that 99% of UO can players can play UO without owning a 100 million gp soulforge from scalis.

I am one of them.
 

WildWobble

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GO KILL SCALLIS! if you want a useless peice of deco so badly its crap anyhow think about it no bouns like going to the queens forge! why get it other then convienence, BTW if you don't like how your plain soulforge looks deed it up when you not useing it. seriously do you NEED a small soulforge that badly i like the plain ones you make them out of oak and then dye the deed with tokuno dyes for a better look.
 

a slave girl

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...

The other side of that Viq is one of the current methods gold sellers use in some cases:

Buy the "shop item" which sells ingame for more gold than said item would cost in gold using the current exchange rates from ingame currency to real currency, sell item on vendor/AH, then sell the gold for a profit, lather, rinse, repeat.

If I remember correctly, that is one method being used with Xfer tokens here (although there is also the fraudulent tokens issue which is a whole other issue which refers back to my earlier statements).



The ONLY 'shop' item that I currently see ingame that seems to operate this way is the Haochie's Pigment that sell for 8 mill in game I think $4 irl, oh yes and the abyssal hair dye, which also costs $4 I think from UO gamecodes and sells for 6 to 8 million ingame.

That is saying that 1 million gold is worth $1 cash (no clue really).

In game an advanced char token sells for 22 million gold max, while the 'shop' price at UO Gamecodes is $29.99.

Transfer tokens generally sell for just under 20 million gold pieces but a few I have seen are priced at 22 million. They cost $19.99 cash from UO Game codes.

I will not lie, I recently found one of my old standardized test papers from the 3rd grade, and even then I was a C student in math, but I am not understanding how people can continue to sell these $29.99 and $19.99tokens in game for 20 - 22 million in gold if the cash to gold exchange rate is 1 to 1.

With the advance tokens they'd be taking a loss of $7 minimum, and the transfer tokens they'd generally break even.

What's the point?

Yet they seem to have an endless supply and sell an awful lot of them.
 

Viper09

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What's this rumbling suggestion that we are all forced to RMT brokers? I never used them. In fact, I never bought anything for UO from anyone with RL money, aside from transactions with EA for a few tokens, upgrades, and subscription fees.
 

T-Hunt

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Stratics Legend
ok here whe go..

As to buying the transfer and advanced char tokens..this was told to me by a person on GL that sells this stuff and codes..

Most are sold cheap , because stolen credit cards are used to buy in mass..

Now for offline sellers of gold and items...does the IRS or any other tax branch look into there dealings?

I beleive most people use paypal or some form of credit card to pay for stuff?

I have seen well named players on GL picking up or handing items over to the offline sellers...how do i know thats what they are?
Easy same couple of players pop on always in same area in Luna...and even the odd player..who will for them...after awhile you can figure out whos who..


But TAXES!!! like to hear from someone who works for the IRS..be interesting view or info on there part about this income...
 
W

Woodsman

Guest
Now for offline sellers of gold and items...does the IRS or any other tax branch look into there dealings?
PayPal and Electronic Arts aren't required to report anything on their own, and I'm not even sure how EA could go about reporting it since there is no way to know if/when people are swapping virtual stuff for cash, since the arrangements are being made through third party software.

As far as the servers are concerned, there would be no difference between me giving something to a random stranger, a friend, or somebody who just sent me $10 through PayPal. I could even leave something behind a tree and somebody could pick it up and the server would have no idea as to my intention or if anything was communicated between myself and that person.

A situation like Second Life is slightly more clear cut since there is a means of officially exchanging virtual goods for cash that can be tracked, but the IRS doesn't even provide guidelines for dealing with virtual goods, at least as of 2009. Second Life is such a cluster**** when it comes to copyright violations that it's hard to use it as an example since it's a wonder the whole thing hadn't been shut down before now. I had a friend who was actually making money from selling stuff through Second Life at one point and she was running into brick walls when trying to figure out the tax situation. Her accountant worked it out, but the IRS wasn't too interested in helping her.
 

Lady CaT

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Hi Jirel,

I guess I have an entirely different view of the RMT vendors and player vendors. They don't effect my enjoyment of UO at all. Why you ask? Well I'll tell ya...lol. I simply ignore them entirely.

Part of what keeps the game exciting for me is the challenge. I'm in absolutely no hurry to be anywhere. If its for one hour a couple nights a week, thats great. Im one hour closer to my goal. I enjoy practicing skills to create my own items, creating mini adventures to find rare resources and travelling to remote dungeons to find that elusive artifact.

So I guess RMT brokers will never have a choke hold on me because I will never use their services. Player inflated prices have no effect on me cause I don't pay them. And as for the soulforge being unattainable by a casual player I sadly have to disagree with you. I am one. :)

I know a poor crewman of a ship who fishes, can tie fuses for a cannon, mix some potions, and wields a cutlass rather poorly. Just ask my ships healer! And if she can find a soulforge! So can you! So get your crewman together, load those cannons and enjoy the excitement of battling Scalis while you search for that soulforge in the depths of the sea!

And try to remember to have fun its really not a race.
 

popps

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But TAXES!!! like to hear from someone who works for the IRS..be interesting view or info on there part about this income...


That is something I always wondered myself.......is the money coming from sales of game virtual items or even accounts considered as "income" and thus taxable ?

And what if the seller is a minor ? Would the parents be responsible for declaring this "income" and so pay taxes ?

All questions I could never find answers for.
 
G

grig_since98

Guest
That is something I always wondered myself.......is the money coming from sales of game virtual items or even accounts considered as "income" and thus taxable ?

And what if the seller is a minor ? Would the parents be responsible for declaring this "income" and so pay taxes ?

All questions I could never find answers for.

I think the answer is yes and it really isn't that novel of a situation. Its somewhat like gambling. If I go out and win money playing poker, then by the rules according to hoyle, so to speak, I have to report that money on my tax return as earned income, at least in the United States. You can also deduct gambling losses from winnings for that year, but I do not think you can deduct an actual loss of income by gambling losses, like you can do to some extent with certain financial instruments.

The real question is whether there will ever be sales taxes on virtual goods. I do know that certain states have taxes on transactions via the internet in general.

I don't know about minors, have to ask an accountant or lawyer.

Edited for spelling and grammar.
 

Korik Bloodguard

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...

Which came first the gold surplus or duping of gold or people selling gold?

Duping.

The first login "news" I ever saw on the old original patch screen in December 1997/January 1998 was in regards to the current dupe bug at that time and the people involved.

Duping was around LOOOOONG before RMT ever got started.
I can say this is misleading because myself and others were selling gold very early in the history of the game: within months of release. Markee Dragon was there very early if you're looking for something a little more organized. In terms of duping, black holing was possible through the flooding of a sub-server but it wasn't the same kind of issue as it has become since the item-based game-play shift.

It wasn't a long time as you state, but a matter of weeks/months before we began selling gold.

KBG
 
G

grig_since98

Guest
I do, but I'm one person and I've been told I'm too idealistic. The reason why I feel this way is that it seems the RMT brokers have UO in a choke hold. An example of this is the over inflated prices of items. For example the small soulforge that drops from Scalis. On a low population shard this item runs about 100m. This is unattainable for the casual player. So they are forced to go to RMT brokers.

Also I have noticed that certain players get away with things. A high percentage of those are RMT brokers. Well if nothing else I'd say art is imitating life. I mean in RL if you got enough money you can get away with anything, even murder. (Remember OJ?) Why should it be any different in UO, right?

I'm not gonna apologize for my views. If you don't agree that's okay. You are free to reply with your views.
I see no instance in which RMT brokers have UO in a chokehold. As a poster has already stated, there is no game mechanic that requires you to pay money to an outside party to play the game. You do not require the small soulforge to play the game, in fact, you do not require the small soulforge to use the inbuing mechanic.

I started playing this game after a long hiatus during which my house decayed with millions of gold worth of rares. This was disappointing, yes, but it didn't stop me from enjoying the game again. In fact, since I was forced to concentrate on activities other than acquiring gold, I've enjoyed UO more than I have since 1998, although I'm playing probably a fifth of the duration that I did then. I've joined a great guild, and they helped me with items, and I hope I've helped them.

Perhaps, and I don't mean this in a negative manner, the problem is you, not RMT. Just enjoy item acquisition as one facet of the entire game experience. You actually don't need any more gold than you have ever needed. The cost of things like NPC purchased armor, reagents, etc hasn't changed. If you are an achiever or collector and want rarer items or you want powerful items, then set a goal for them, tag along with someone who can get them, or use RMT.

Certain people will always get away with things, and many more will not. Can you prove that a "high percentage" of players that get away with things are RMT participants? How many is that? What things are they getting away with?

The statement in your last paragraph is defeatist and cynical. No, plenty of people who have a great deal of money, have gotten busted for some very bad things. The example you gave was one instance, and I believe that had more to do with racial tension in the U.S. than OJ's money. Also, don't forget that individual is likely to spend a significant portion of his remaining life in prison because of violent behavior not related to the case you were refering to.

This post, in my mind, expresses a great deal of paranoia. These passive-aggressive, defensive posts are sort of a pattern for you on at least two boards. You need to stop being fearful and not expect the worst from everyone and every organization.
 
R

RavenWinterHawk

Guest
No, no you misunderstood. I could careless I'll just keep doing whatever spawn/reknowned/Peerless to get the drop I want. I'm just befuddled at items selling for 100m gold when I can remember items selling for 1-10mil and while expensive they were attainable.

That added to the fact I see certain players getting away with certain behavior over and over again. I find that some of these players are invovled with RMT. It makes me raise an eyebrow. Dear if you have ever read your world history book you would know that corruption in all its forms have exsisted since the world was very young. I don't believe in that aspect mankind or the world has changed that much.
Your missing the point all things are relative.

Prices go up as more gold comes in. A new player can step into the economy in a flash. If your new, go on a hunt, get a item, you can sell it for millions. Your in.

Now the behavior of players, I agree with you. But that is the world we live in.
 

Nexus

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I don't think so, honestly I don't think anything drastic has changed in UO since Publish 5 (UO:R Launch).

Back years ago it was E-bay, then all the RMT folks got banned from selling virtual goods there, so they opened shop elsewhere, namely their own sites.



Now what I do think has changed is the player base, and I"m not talking population changes, or Tram vs Fel. I'm talking our expectations as individuals of what UO should or could be. Open up a new tab on Uhall while reading this, I'll wait.......



......

Back with me? Ok how many "Positive" posts do you see in those threads? How many have positive topics? UO is still UO, nothing has changed really in a decade, PvP and PvM are separate and have been for over a decade, sure new skills have been added and item mods, which make the game "easier" and more complex at the same time, but that's just evolution and expansion on trends that were started 11 years ago. Most of us that have been kicking around UO for the past decade or so are pretty set in our ways, Me I think I have a slight advantage in some ways. I left UO right before AoS and came back during SE with all new accounts, I didn't expect to come back to the same game, and I can honestly say I feel UO is better as a game now than it was then. Sure X-fers got screwy for a few days, I'll take not having access to one character for a couple of days vs the server crashing every 30 minutes with a 20 minutes revert each time. I see folks complain that the player base is too spread out... I'll take that over seeing every level of every dungeon camped by folks. I see gripes that the economy is out of wack.. No it's not it's working exactly how it should based on the model it was established on. And don't feed me this duping junk, UO's lost over 100k subs since it's peak, how much gold left with those 100k subs vs how much was created via duping? I call it about even. What's got the economy outta wack is Gold isn't leaving the system because if they put in Gold Sinks that only cater to those with huge sums of gold it puts the Haves and the Have Nots farther apart.

I see people complain about no advertising. What does UO have to sell itself on. You can't slap a screen cap from the CC on a box and expect people in Best Buy to take it seriously when it's on the shelf next to WoW or Halo. What talk about it's history and how you can be what ever you want to be in the game? I'll tell you right now most who have never played UO care any more about it's history any more than we did listening to our aged grannies tell us how they had to walk uphill through the snow both ways. Sure they'll listen, the might find some humor or it might temporarily peak their interest but it doesn't effect them.

So here's the facts. And you can call this overly long posting of mine a rant or heck brand it "Nexus' State of the Game"

UO is working as intended.

It's a game where the economy is working tried and true based on the model it was developed on. Gold goes in, it shifts around and those that like in the real world have the means seem to collect most of it. And like every real world economy there is a certain measure of corruption and greed, deal with it, every game gets hit with these issues. Fixing it now won't stop it from cropping up again later. And be glad UO doesn't go to an extreme like some games have. Atlantica Online for example adopted a policy of you can only hunt an area and gather loot for a set amount of time before you have to move on to somewhere else. Try finishing a quest requiring an item when RNG hates you in that game.

It is a game where what you invest in time you get back out in reward.
So you don't get a 120 mage at every spawn.... Hey several hundred thousand gold dropped on the ground, I know I rarely leave a spawn without collecting close to 200k myself on top of scrolls, and possibly arties. Oh you got raided, big deal your insurance saved your gear making it possible for you to try again at a minimal cost to your character. They invested time in honing their PvP abilities, they were rewarded for doing so no different than the real world, you don't always go straight up the ladder of success sometimes you have to perch on a ledge for a bit, or climb down a couple of rungs in order to better prepare yourself for progress later.

UO in many ways has gone beyond being simply and aged MMO, it's become a real virtual society, You have crime, corruption, greed, jealousy, success, victory, joy, nobility, compassion etc. It allows you freedom, if I want to be a Noble Paladin that moonlights as a gourmet Chef, I can do it. If I want to Masterful Animal Tamer that has a side job as a musician, I can do it. If I want to be socialite that sits at a commerce hub trading the local gossip, guess what I can do it. UO thanks to it's Sandbox nature better reflects the real world more than any Virtual society I've ever been involved with and for many of us I'm sure that is why we are still here. People in our little social groups we consider actual friends often times, not just someone we game with.


The point of all of this comes down to just a few choice words....

UO hasn't really changed, we have, some of us have grown children who now play, some of us have parents who introduced us to UO. Some of us are just experiencing it for the first few months and for others of us UO is an old friend. And just like with our familiar friends try not to scrutinize it's small vices, look for the good in it. Make your own way in Sosaria it's what it was created for, take pride in what you accomplish during your travels through the realm, and don't worry if so and so is buying is way to fame and glory, he's really accomplishing nothing. Help the new generation of players, just as some of the older generation of players might have helped you. The golden rule still applies, it's honestly what the virtues are all about.
 

virtualhabitat

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UO in many ways has gone beyond being simply and aged MMO, it's become a real virtual society, You have crime, corruption, greed, jealousy, success, victory, joy, nobility, compassion etc. It allows you freedom, if I want to be a Noble Paladin that moonlights as a gourmet Chef, I can do it. If I want to Masterful Animal Tamer that has a side job as a musician, I can do it. If I want to be socialite that sits at a commerce hub trading the local gossip, guess what I can do it. UO thanks to it's Sandbox nature better reflects the real world more than any Virtual society I've ever been involved with and for many of us I'm sure that is why we are still here. People in our little social groups we consider actual friends often times, not just someone we game with.

The golden rule still applies, it's honestly what the virtues are all about.
That was quite moving. You should comment more often.
 

Amber Moon

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Early on you ask "What does UO have to sell itself on?". Then you go on to answer your own question:

UO in many ways has gone beyond being simply and aged MMO, it's become a real virtual society, You have crime, corruption, greed, jealousy, success, victory, joy, nobility, compassion etc. It allows you freedom, if I want to be a Noble Paladin that moonlights as a gourmet Chef, I can do it. If I want to Masterful Animal Tamer that has a side job as a musician, I can do it. If I want to be socialite that sits at a commerce hub trading the local gossip, guess what I can do it. UO thanks to it's Sandbox nature better reflects the real world more than any Virtual society I've ever been involved with and for many of us I'm sure that is why we are still here. People in our little social groups we consider actual friends often times, not just someone we game with.
UO is one of the last sandboxes standing. Its not for everyone but that environment is attractive to some. The more the development of the game concentrates on combat mechanics or trying to compete graphically with modern games, the more it moves away from its core strengths. The developers really needs to recognize what it's strengths are and play to them and get the word out that it remains one of the last virtual worlds.
 

Gorbs

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R

RavenWinterHawk

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Early on you ask "What does UO have to sell itself on?". Then you go on to answer your own question:



UO is one of the last sandboxes standing. Its not for everyone but that environment is attractive to some. The more the development of the game concentrates on combat mechanics or trying to compete graphically with modern games, the more it moves away from its core strengths. The developers really needs to recognize what it's strengths are and play to them and get the word out that it remains one of the last virtual worlds.
I agree with these two posts. However... We can become a lot. We have less and less to do. I would like less in what we can be or become and more adventure, random adventure.

I want to take my necro mage theif somewhere new and strange. Not just stand around casting on myself.
 

Dakkon Blackblade

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Nexus what crime exists in UO today? I thought you couldn't kill/steal in trammel?

On a side note I do not consider UO to be a sandbox, to many restrictions have been imposed on player freedom/interaction to meet the definition at least in my opinion.

Also the last time I played the game it seemed to be heading more and more towards quest based gameplay, to be fair though I rolled a new character on a friends account and perhaps the questing is primarily for newbies? If I am wrong well please feel free to correct.
 

Nexus

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Early on you ask "What does UO have to sell itself on?". Then you go on to answer your own question:

UO in many ways has gone beyond being simply and aged MMO, it's become a real virtual society, You have crime, corruption, greed, jealousy, success, victory, joy, nobility, compassion etc. It allows you freedom, if I want to be a Noble Paladin that moonlights as a gourmet Chef, I can do it. If I want to Masterful Animal Tamer that has a side job as a musician, I can do it. If I want to be socialite that sits at a commerce hub trading the local gossip, guess what I can do it. UO thanks to it's Sandbox nature better reflects the real world more than any Virtual society I've ever been involved with and for many of us I'm sure that is why we are still here. People in our little social groups we consider actual friends often times, not just someone we game with.
UO is one of the last sandboxes standing. Its not for everyone but that environment is attractive to some. The more the development of the game concentrates on combat mechanics or trying to compete graphically with modern games, the more it moves away from its core strengths. The developers really needs to recognize what it's strengths are and play to them and get the word out that it remains one of the last virtual worlds.
And it's going to be virtually impossible to pass those sentiments of in a 30sec commercial, or slap it on a box and expect it to draw interest without game play video demonstrating graphics.

I'll agree those are all strengths of UO, but they are still intangibles, something almost impossible to convey easily.
 

Nexus

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Nexus what crime exists in UO today? I thought you couldn't kill/steal in trammel?

On a side note I do not consider UO to be a sandbox, to many restrictions have been imposed on player freedom/interaction to meet the definition at least in my opinion.

Also the last time I played the game it seemed to be heading more and more towards quest based gameplay, to be fair though I rolled a new character on a friends account and perhaps the questing is primarily for newbies? If I am wrong well please feel free to correct.
Sure you can, Crime still happens in game even in UO, it's not common but you still hear about people joining guilds, gaining trust only to rob the guilds public coffers, or in order to steal from members. You hear about scams all the time, crime still happens on both sides of the moongate.

Quest based gameplay... Yes and No. ML and SA brought in quests to gain access to content, but really none of the other quests are "required" for game play.
 

NuSair

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Gold dupes don't come very often. I think there being maybe 2 in UO lifetime with gold dupes. Other dupes were just items that don't generate more gold into the economy.
Incorrect on a very absurdly huge level.
 

Amber Moon

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And it's going to be virtually impossible to pass those sentiments of in a 30sec commercial, or slap it on a box and expect it to draw interest without game play video demonstrating graphics.

I'll agree those are all strengths of UO, but they are still intangibles, something almost impossible to convey easily.
Well, I disagree. I think you can promote this. Gaming site interviews give opportunities. You can even reduce it to a sound bite like "Live in a world of adventure instead of just playing a game".

It would be good if they added more worldly type features to promote, but you could do it with what exists.

If you listen to Garriott quotes these days, they sound like promotions for UO should sound.
 

NuSair

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What casual player needs a one-tile soul forge?

/thread
Probably somebody who wants to stick one on a Britannian ship if they ever fix it.
Actually, there is currently a bug with the current soul forge where you can make it into a single tile soul forge by dropping it through floors and breaking it. Which makes it where you can access the soul forge from anywhere in the house.
 

Dakkon Blackblade

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Sure you can, Crime still happens in game even in UO, it's not common but you still hear about people joining guilds, gaining trust only to rob the guilds public coffers, or in order to steal from members. You hear about scams all the time, crime still happens on both sides of the moongate.
Well that's more like players conning players than crime, or at least the way I see crime from a character vs character roleplay type setting. It's sad that scamming people is all that's left for a villain in game though.

What is a noble paladin without crime to fight after all? I suppose you could say there is more to it than fighting evil with a sword, and that's fair enough, but I always found the idea of slaying dumb mobs to be boring.
 

Nexus

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Well that's more like players conning players than crime, or at least the way I see crime from a character vs character roleplay type setting. It's sad that scamming people is all that's left for a villain in game though.

What is a noble paladin without crime to fight after all? I suppose you could say there is more to it than fighting evil with a sword, and that's fair enough, but I always found the idea of slaying dumb mobs to be boring.

They can always jump to Fel and fight murderers. That's one of the freedoms we have in UO that are found no where else. If not they are free to work with various RP groups, or start one, to arrange events etc. where they can explore their RP fantasies as they see fit.

I know myself, I don't really Role Play, I mean I will if I'm interacting with a group of die hard RPer's, I'd consider not to do so extremely rude. Sort of the same way many, not all, of us are severely annoyed when that one Die Hard RPer shows up at a function where no one else is engaging in RP and refuses to go [OOC], especially when they RP someone of below average intelligence or of less than normal civility, sure it's cute for about 15 minutes then it makes you want to rip your teeth out.

I honestly probably RP more on my Thief than any other character, mainly because of the reactions it results in, and fortunately for me Felucca still provides the opportunity to do so.
 

the 4th man

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You want a pee wee soulforge, do what I did. Raise the proper amount of gozas, place your mega soulforge ontop of it. Drop a goza, it breaks, and whittle it down to size. It works.
 
F

FishinFool

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4 Things irrevocably destroyed the "gold" economy

1: Bank checks - convenient duping
2: LRC - massive gold sink effectively removed from the game
3: Alai's "economy" - total farse
4: Faction vendors
 

Petra Fyde

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Some of the posts I have removed from this thread were verging on libellous, for this reason, and to prevent a recurrence of such posts, this thread is now locked
 
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