Do crafting talismans affect skill gain?

[imported_Risso]

Pretty self-explanatory

 

[Guest]

My smith wears a +11 Blacksmithing, +20 Exceptional Smithing talisman and I have noticed somewhat of a slowdown ... but it could be because of his skill now (high 80s).

In general I believe anything that raises your skill level artificially interferes with gains in that skill to an extent. I just swapped +5 Mining gloves for +3 and gained .3 within minutes.

 

[imported_ParadoxUO]

Crafting skill gain is supposed to be based on success... since talismans increase your success chance... I would say it is fair to say... Yes.

 

[Prudentis]

Paradox, I don't think that's what Risso meant.

I think the question was, is sklii gain based on your unmodified skill or the modified.
For example, take a 80skill smith who crafts things in the "perfect-gain" for his skill of 80. Then take the same smith with a +10 taliman now crafting "perfect-gain" stuff for his skill of now 90.
Is there a difference in skill gain speed between the two scenarios?Anything is possible btw.
1. Skill gain is based solely on the bare skill of 80, then any succes on a "worthy" target would be a chance to gain skill independent of any +skill items.
2. Skill gain is based on the modified skill. Then it would actually be harder to gain skill while wearing +skill items.
3. Skill gain is based on bare skill AND the harder the target, the better the skill gain chance. Then, wearing +skill items would actually benefit skill gain.

Does anyone have _real_ knowledge about how UO handles this?

 

[Frarc]

Yes, Talismans and even skill jewelry will affect how you gain. If either raises your skill so high that failing on what you do is gone or made very low. Skill gain will be very slow. I recommend everyone who working on a skill is not to wear any talisman or skill enhancing jewelry. Gaining skill is just a matter of casting,making or doing the right thing for your skill level. Nothing too hard and nothing to easy.

 

[Basara]

Also, remember, that skill gain is based on chance of normal success.

A talisman that gives only an exceptional bonus (no regular bonus) should not have any effect on gains (other than to give you better quality on the items).

Also note that for most skills, the percentage on talismans for normal crafting bonus, count as half the number of skill points, if one does choose to wear one while training.

For example, if one is 70.0 blacksmith skill, and is wearing a "blacksmith bonus 24%" talisman, it means their gains will be as if they were 82.0 skill - except that they are still limited to items that 70.0 skill can craft.

Another example:

A person scrolled to 115 Blacksmithy can continue to gain on an item until the chance of success hits theoretical 115% (only displays as 100%). If that person has a 90% chance to make something normally, and then they use a 25% talisman, that puts their theoretical skill at 115% chance. Therefore they cannot gain from crafting that item while using the talisman, even though they would normally be able to do so, without the talisman.


And, while talismans do affect the ability of a skill to gain based on success, they shouldn't affect the speed of GGS based on the total number of skill points on the account.

 

[imported_athos_uo]

No, talismans raise only the success chance of making items and don't affect skill gaining at all.

Cf. my experiments

 

[Basara]

You might want to rerun your experiments under better controlled conditions...

Others experience and EA both say otherwise.

In fact, your own experiments say otherwise as well. You state you don't gain when the chance of success is over 100%.

 

[Basara]

You contradict yourself.

1. "If the difficulty is out of the lower range, your success chance of making the item is 100%, so you don't have the chance of skill gain."

This is a direct contradiction of your earlier post.

When the Talisman is applied to your skill, it can take you out of focus area, making you incapable of gaining skill. Therefore, Talismans DO affect skill gain (by blocking it, if worn when the skill is too close to the top end of the focus). And, this is the situation where "can I gain?" questions will come up. Trying to argue otherwise is playing games of semantics. But, that's just the tip of the iceberg.


2. There are several other items that are questionable.

a. Difficulty. Difficulty has a basis in skill, but its basis is indirect - the actual chance to gain is based on the total percentage chance of success, not the one solely from skill. The way Talismans were described in the same Dev post and follow-ups, indicated that the talisman bonus is applied to the success chance in such a way that the chance to gain treats the modified difficulty, not the unmodified one, as the basis for gain chance. Once you have a percentage chance to make, the skill value is irrelevant.

b. Furthermore, The devs have also stated, and years of testing and skill gain charts have borne this out, that powerscrolls alter the Focus range for blacksmithy & tailoring (and have a similar effect for non-crafting skills). And, they alter it in a way that shows the gain is based on success percentage, not the skill number directly.

For these two crafting skills:
If you use a 105 Powerscroll, your focus is expanded to where you can gain on an item where its hypothetical chance for success is 105%, instead of 100%
If you use a 110 Powerscroll, your focus is expanded to where you can gain on an item where its hypothetical chance for success is 110%, instead of 100%
If you use a 115 Powerscroll, your focus is expanded to where you can gain on an item where its hypothetical chance for success is 115%, instead of 100%
If you use a 120 Powerscroll, your focus is expanded to where you can gain on an item where its hypothetical chance for success is 120%, instead of 100%

In these most-obvious cases, the actual "Focus" in terms of skill, has the end increased by half the percentage, or 2.5 points per 5%. The question now becomes, does the ratio increase to be "x/(cap for skill)" losing the ability to easily define the change in tenths of points of skills & percentages; or does it just shift the midpoint 2.5% per 5% of scrolled change to the skill cap (where, on a 105 scroll, 52.5% becomes the new midpoint, etc.)

c. It also further breaks down in that, while some skills have the ability to make items start at some number other than 0%. Specifically, how is Focus defined for Tailoring, if most items start at 50% at the point where one can first make them? Is the focus (without power scrolls) still 50, with skill gain started at the optimum point? Or is it 25 (the distance between the point where the skill allows the making of most items, and where that item hits 100%)?

While the "Focus" was defined in terms of skill by the dev in question, it is apparent from these facts that he was doing so as a means to simplify the true mechanics that underlies the skill gain apparatus to be more understandable, while sacrificing some preciseness - that of the difference between 0% chance and the capped level of the skill, which serves as the opposite end of the gain spectrum. The "Focus" as described in skill is a surface effect of a deeper underlying mechanic grounded in the skill percentages. The effect, if you will, not the cause - and it is easiest to explain for a non-scrolled skill.

And, BTW, I couldn't get a Guaranteed Gain in 20 successes with a talisman on, with an item that would have gotten me the gain without the talisman equipped. That's good enough evidence for me that talismans effect the skill gain root numbers on the skill "modified percentage to succeed" level, not the skill level directly.

 

[imported_athos_uo]

<blockquote><hr>

"If the difficulty is out of the lower range, your success chance of making the item is 100%, so you don't have the chance of skill gain."


[/ QUOTE ]
That "success chance of making the item is 100%" is a result of that "the difficulty is out of the lower range". The former is not the same as the latter. AND skill gain function refers not to the success chance, but to the disctance from the difficulty of the item to pc's current skill. AND talismans boost only the success chance of making the item and don't affect the difficulty of the item itself, THEREFORE they don't affcet the chance of skill gain.

<blockquote><hr>

a. Difficulty. Difficulty has a basis in skill, but its basis is indirect - the actual chance to gain is based on the total percentage chance of success, not the one solely from skill.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not true.

You describe based on the fictional theory made by yourself, which pvoes nothing.
<blockquote><hr>

The way Talismans were described in the same Dev post and follow-ups,

[/ QUOTE ]
The dev is mistaken. You know that devs were often mistaken, and I pointed out sometimes correctly. This time is also the case.

<blockquote><hr>

(2) b. Furthermore, The devs have also stated, and years of testing and skill gain charts have borne this out, that powerscrolls alter the Focus range for blacksmithy &amp; tailoring (and have a similar effect for non-crafting skills).

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a fact, PSCs widen the focus range, as stated above, but don't contradict to my theory.

<blockquote><hr>

c. It also further breaks down in that, while some skills have the ability to make items start at some number other than 0%. Specifically, how is Focus defined for Tailoring, if most items start at 50% at the point where one can first make them?

[/ QUOTE ]
Focus range of Tailoring is 50 but the half below is cut. Wilki has stated about these specific skills as follows:<blockquote><hr>

Ninjitsu, Bushido, Spellweaving

Focus: 50

The newer skills behave a bit differently than magery. The minimum requirement to cast Word of Death is 80, but that doesn't mean the difficulty is 105. The value that the new spell system feeds into the skill check as the difficulty value is the minimum requirement + 12.5 skill.

- At 80 skill, you have 25% chance (which is the lowest you can make the attempt)
- At 92.5 skill you have 50% chance
- At 117.5 skill you have 100% chance"

[/ QUOTE ]
Tailoring is not newer, but of the same kind.

--

And you don't mention my test results. Your theory can't explain my test results. Please bring up the evidence that my results are wrong.

 

[Basara]

1. You're playing semantics. You are trying to claim that 2+2 does not equal 4, by word game.

2. YOUR theories are at least as fictional as mine. But, at least mine are based on dev statements and direct observations. I've yet to see any source for your formula for gain or difficulty. You are making assumptions that a simplified description for a skill that doesn't have a displayed success chance is the whole story - especially in light of information that even YOU give that contradicts it.

3. You've yet to give any of YOUR test results. I've given mine. Talismans can move the PERCENTAGE out of the skill gain window. This is not a SKILL change, so by process of elimination, this illustrates that the focus range is SUCCESS PERCENTAGE based, not actually based in the skill. The Power Scroll effect confirms this. The skill window "focus" as described by the dev is a SIMPLIFIED way of looking at the percentages, especially for the skills where the PERCENTAGES CANNOT BE SEEN DIRECTLY (mages and paladins can't see their success chances like crafters can with their tools) - which were what was being discussed in the Five on Friday segment. Hell, if I was trying to describe personally how the percentage chance of success worked for gaining those skills, even I would use the skill range to describe it, because the numbers that matter are invisible to the player. It's just plain logic. But, crafting is a whole other matter.

I have a better idea - Why don't we resubmit this argument to Jeremy, to pass on for clarification? That way we can stop calling each other liars.

 

[imported_athos_uo]

<blockquote><hr>

I have a better idea - Why don't we resubmit this argument to Jeremy, to pass on for clarification?

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't understand this. Why don't you do it by yourself? You can easily see that the chance of skill gaining without talisman is equal to the chance of that with talisman. That's all.
<blockquote><hr>

That way we can stop calling each other liars.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't call you a liar, I only say that you don't understand what I mean. Or do you call me a liar?

 

[Basara]

How can I? You're the one stating your formula, which has no basis in any documentation whatsoever, is the correct one.

It is that formula, that is the basis for your claim.

I have repeatedly asked for an official source for it, you decline to do so, and state that it is fact, without proof.

On the other hand, there is plenty of real, testing, proof, that your hypotheses do NOT work, especially in conjunction with a talisman, including a Dev stating that a talisman bonus can put you out of the skill gain window. Something you admit yourself.

I cannot "easily see" anything, when you stick up something as fact, with no proof that it is, and that has already been disproved.

You keep effectively saying "the reason why it is blindingly white in color is because it's pitch black." You can't have it both ways.

I've already submitted the question to Five on Friday. Maybe we'll get a real answer.

What's the last line - an attempt to play "I know you are but what am I?" - you don't look like Paul Ruebens (I hope)

You're calling me a liar by ignoring where I've proved your hypotheses wrong, and insisting your own hypotheses, with less proof, are uncontestable fact. What that makes you, I think I'll leave that up for others to decide.