Devs: All creatures should be bard-able

[canary]

Otherwise, you are asking players to waste 200-480 points for nothing on their template.

I'm kinda over things saying 'You can't incite that!'. I'm kinda over during the current invasions when I provoke Bane Chosen they merely walk around in a daze for 5 seconds or so before ignoring the fact they should be attacking each other to go back to attacking players.

Listen, I don't care of it is just a mere 1-5% chance for the hardest things in game. But it gets very, very tiring to have an entire template rendered nil. It's like a fencer's weapon not being allowed to do damage, a tamer's creatures refusing to attack or a mages spells fizzling out. Simply put, it just isn't fair.

Like I said, feel free to make the difficulty hard. But please stop making me want to soulstone my bardic abilities because they are not worth squat on the battlefield unless Im working merely as a buffer to OTHER players with song masteries (ie just standing around doing nothing).

 

[Hunters' Moon]

I agree with this. If nothing else,discord should work on anything.

 

[Madrid]

I agree with this. If nothing else,discord should work on anything.

Baloney!

Some creatures should have resistances and immunities to certain magic abilities.

A Bard is one of the most powerful templates if played properly.

With particular Spawns, Bosses, Events certain templates fair better than others.

Learn to diversify and adapt. Bring the right tool/template for the job at hand.

 

[Vlaude]

I think peacemaking especially should get a boost. I tried duoing an arachnid champ spawn some time ago and although I could occasionally peace mephitis (with 120 music/peace and a spider slayer instrument) it wouldn't last long enough for us to get her health down at all before we had to flee from her again. Would be nice if it would last a little longer against tougher enemies. Also would be nice if bosses could be killed with templates other than sampire.

 

[canary]

A Bard is one of the most powerful templates if played properly.

No one is denying bard effects are powerful. Merely asking that the entire skill set not be disregarded.

I've noticed a huge trend in EM events and things like the current Bane Chosen invasions that bardic abilities are rendered completely useless. And seriously, that shouldn't be the case.

Imagine if you played an archer and you kept getting the notice 'Your arrow bounces harmlessly due to magics!'. Or if your tame got a message that said 'You beast refuses to touch the enemy!'. Or a mage with 'Your spell fizzles upon reaching the enemy!'.

If it is that important to keep bards abilities to a minimum, just make it harder... not impossible. Like I said, I'd even accept a 1-5% chance for the hardest of the hard. I just would like to know that I have a template that is somewhat viable, not a complete waste of points.

 

[Meat Elemental]

Disco works fine for me on the guards, they drop alot faster when discoed, and peace works on em too it's just provoke that has no effect on em.

 

[Snakeman]

Provocation for almost every EM & EA Events has been "taken out of service" as one might say for the last year or so. Even though many creatures for these events the bardability is only a meer 130... Why? You can Peace or Disco them for "Others" to get the benefit of, but for the guy who puts in hours of provo training he gets left out of the event... Like one other said, would an archer like "your arrows bounce off falling to the ground & do no damage" or the swords, fencer, macer "your blows glance off the intended creature", or a mage/necro or Myst, "your spell fizzles as it reaches it's intended target", or our tamers, as we have all gotten this message before at one time or another "your pet refuses to attack that creature". This is what provo bards are dealing with at mostly all events now, being left out . I enjoy playing my Provo Bard, why should I be left out of events playing the character I most like to play?

 

[Hunters' Moon]

Baloney!

Some creatures should have resistances and immunities to certain magic abilities.

A Bard is one of the most powerful templates if played properly.

With particular Spawns, Bosses, Events certain templates fair better than others.

Learn to diversify and adapt. Bring the right tool/template for the job at hand.

I have a full gamit of templates that I have worked up. No other template has the limitations of the bard. You don't see a mage or other caster that gets the message "you can't cast that spell at your target". You never see a tamer getting a message stating "you can not attack this target with a pet".Nor will you ever see a warrior get the message "you may not hit your target with your weapon".

 

[Skrag]

No other template can walk in buck naked with a harp and have full offensive potential, plus the potential to take a boss or event monster totally out of the battle. Even a tamer has to worry about their pet dying if they themselves die.

 

[Hunters' Moon]

No other template can walk in buck naked with a harp and have full offensive potential, plus the potential to take a boss or event monster totally out of the battle. Even a tamer has to worry about their pet dying if they themselves die.

Offensive potential against what,exactly? Maybe Ogre Lords for some other non-casting mob. Walk into a room of lich lords or other higher end casters and you'll be seeing monochrome.

 

[LordDrago]

I have a full gamit of templates that I have worked up. No other template has the limitations of the bard. You don't see a mage or other caster that gets the message "you can't cast that spell at your target". You never see a tamer getting a message stating "you can not attack this target with a pet".Nor will you ever see a warrior get the message "you may not hit your target with your weapon".

No, but my mystic thief keeps getting the message that he cannot cast that in town.

He doesn't do so good in this invasion going on. LOL

Although I have discovered a new, 100% invincible template - The Mystic Thief Ghost

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

No one is denying bard effects are powerful. Merely asking that the entire skill set not be disregarded.

I've noticed a huge trend in EM events and things like the current Bane Chosen invasions that bardic abilities are rendered completely useless. And seriously, that shouldn't be the case.

Imagine if you played an archer and you kept getting the notice 'Your arrow bounces harmlessly due to magics!'. Or if your tame got a message that said 'You beast refuses to touch the enemy!'. Or a mage with 'Your spell fizzles upon reaching the enemy!'.

If it is that important to keep bards abilities to a minimum, just make it harder... not impossible. Like I said, I'd even accept a 1-5% chance for the hardest of the hard. I just would like to know that I have a template that is somewhat viable, not a complete waste of points.

In response to this plus what you quoted, I would agree some critters should have immunity to certain things. I personally would not be against certain monsters being near invincible to a mage or melee type unless the monster has been discoed or other wise compromised.

I have a full gamit of templates that I have worked up. No other template has the limitations of the bard. You don't see a mage or other caster that gets the message "you can't cast that spell at your target". You never see a tamer getting a message stating "you can not attack this target with a pet".Nor will you ever see a warrior get the message "you may not hit your target with your weapon".

See above. Also this is not a perfect argument, but some event monsters in the past have been nearly invincible to attacks (beserkers anyone?) Would you feel better if ophidians dropped special instruments that allowed you to provoke the bane? (obviously it would have to be the ophidian or meer as they are the ones battling.) Would be a welcome change to me.

Diversity in the game is a good thing, these idea's I posted took me the time to read your post to come up with. How about being creative instead of just complaining.

As for the tamer argument, Pets have done 0 damage to event critters before, and I think the "Void demon wisps" take no damage from pets. Also a pet can refuse to fight.
Edit: Another poor example, but some elementals take no damage from pets.

 

[Adol]

No other template can walk in buck naked with a harp and have full offensive potential, plus the potential to take a boss or event monster totally out of the battle. Even a tamer has to worry about their pet dying if they themselves die.

Of course, without perfect armour you won't have any defensive potential, and no way apart from Magery to heal yourself; and Greater Dragons for instance will eat you alive even with perfect defence, unless you've a mount and run about like a blue bummed hare, due to failing a provoke onto another Greater even at 120 Provoke and Music skills... and they constantly dispell summons. Where as on my Tamer I can usually pick it up with my pets and just sit there quietly vetting. A Sampire eats them alive with constant health stealing. An archer can sit at range... as can a bard it's true, once a Provoke between two roughly equal creatures finally sticks.

But you won't get looting rights at mobs like Navrey, because even if your summons can stay undismissed, you don't do enough direct damage. The new Discord direct damage spell eats your mana so fast that there's no real point using it in such fights. And of course, as mentioned, EM events in cities don't let you use summons either; and you can only provoke the Hell Hounds and Bane Dragons, as Humanoids are all immune and the Guardians are too tough. (credit though for not having auto dispell on the High Seas mobs, so you can actually go to those on a bard).

Yes, in other settings Bards are extremely strong; I use mine as a solo treasure hunter (I don't know yet if he can handle Ingenious as I'm still working through a pre-Publish backlog of those that are on the old THB spots) but some basic functionality in other locations would be nice too...

 

[Babble]

Agreed

 

[Babble]

No other template can walk in buck naked with a harp and have full offensive potential, plus the potential to take a boss or event monster totally out of the battle. Even a tamer has to worry about their pet dying if they themselves die.

Actually I always found a tamer better, Just cast invisible when monsters target you. If the dragon dies run away and ress it.
Barding without a tank is a bit more of a problem.

 

[EDA_GL]

Perhaps its just me...
I'm able to defend/attack quite well on my 'PVP Bard'.
If a pet happens to wander into the field of fight, it becomes discorded. Should it attack myself, or a guildy. It is peaced.
All-the-while im casting offensive spells/support (healing) guildies.

My other hybrid tamer bard template (840+skill point) is able to fully complete Rikky, Neria, Meph and doom solo. Not quite sure what the main complaint is. Learn to play your template.

 

[Meat Elemental]

I have a tamer with peace/disco also and love it. Area peace for when im in trouble and target peace so i only fight one ata time. Works wonders with the bane.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Things unaffected by warriors = 0
Things unaffected by pets/summons = 2 (Some misc crap that no one hunts, and Paroxysmus')
Things unaffected by spells = 2 (Some misc crap that no one hunts)
Things unaffected by Provoke (or where Provoke is otherwise useless) = Well lets see, there's every Peerless, every Fel champ except Neira, Slasher, every EM event monster, every Bane invasion monster, Navrey, most Halloween monsters in the last 8 years, Scalis.

Things where Provoke HAS worked on worthwhile or recent additions = Harbingers, Giant Turkeys, T maps.

The Provoke allowed list is about as big as most other classes disallowed list.

I agree with the OP, everything should have A chance even if it's something pathetic like 1%.

 

[Warpig Inc]

Just right and no change needed. There needs to be more of regulating effects. Less damage further away from creature. We already have the coding for immune to pets and spells. Toss in some of that 160+ spell resist. Like to see some future creature with there own slayer ability. Kinda damage bonus vs elf or human or gargoyle besides the current slayer type. (As big as Narvey is you'd think she be specialized in killing dragons to fill her dinner plate)

What is needed is more specialized creatures on defence and offence. More of a spawn population of medium or little higher size instead of one single fatty. Or the bosses have their own followers to keep players on their toes. Take Oaks Queen. Not to hard for a dexer to toe to toe. Then she summons a pack of pixies and the chase is on.

The Zerks had been an easy solo on a 4x120 firehorn bard with chiv and swords. And the zerks had been only an iussue for those without a named weapon from an earlier invasion. And from that invasion. Still waiting for the follow up storyline on why all those bardiche had terathan on them.

But the statement the "right tool for the job" is end all for any argument here. You don't take a tamer to do proxy. PERIOD. You guild gank the guy that DCs their tally of creature summoning just as proxy is redlined. Take the area the elder spawns in the mines for the tuko event drop. Nothing but mages and tamers running about like chicken with their heads cut off when a shadow eli wanders in close. One mage loots a crappy mage weapon off a corpse and owns it. Or left it alone untill the scripters are NOT seeing the monochrome screens. (ya griefing to do the ballless GMs job because they couldn't take advantage of another of many perfect cheater traps. like a frostwood tree)

I'd like to see a new creature effect that they it can only take max 20 damage from any one source. Then players would have to get a pack of critters or break out those trained chicken lizards. Bring on the frenzy ossi pack. Or the archer/mage/weaver with 5 pixies for the win. Imbuers get rich off repeters and skinning knives with 30SSI.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Things unaffected by warriors = 0
Things unaffected by pets/summons = 2 (Some misc crap that no one hunts, and Paroxysmus')
Things unaffected by spells = 2 (Some misc crap that no one hunts)
Things unaffected by Provoke (or where Provoke is otherwise useless) = Well lets see, there's every Peerless, every Fel champ except Neira, Slasher, every EM event monster, every Bane invasion monster, Navrey, most Halloween monsters in the last 8 years, Scalis.

Things where Provoke HAS worked on worthwhile or recent additions = Harbingers, Giant Turkeys, T maps.

The Provoke allowed list is about as big as most other classes disallowed list.

I agree with the OP, everything should have A chance even if it's something pathetic like 1%.

I don't disagree that it is not balanced/fair, I am just saying to fix it in the opposite direction.

Just right and no change needed. There needs to be more of regulating effects. Less damage further away from creature. We already have the coding for immune to pets and spells. Toss in some of that 160+ spell resist. Like to see some future creature with there own slayer ability. Kinda damage bonus vs elf or human or gargoyle besides the current slayer type. (As big as Narvey is you'd think she be specialized in killing dragons to fill her dinner plate)

What is needed is more specialized creatures on defence and offence. More of a spawn population of medium or little higher size instead of one single fatty. Or the bosses have their own followers to keep players on their toes. Take Oaks Queen. Not to hard for a dexer to toe to toe. Then she summons a pack of pixies and the chase is on.

The Zerks had been an easy solo on a 4x120 firehorn bard with chiv and swords. And the zerks had been only an iussue for those without a named weapon from an earlier invasion. And from that invasion. Still waiting for the follow up storyline on why all those bardiche had terathan on them.

But the statement the "right tool for the job" is end all for any argument here. You don't take a tamer to do proxy. PERIOD. You guild gank the guy that DCs their tally of creature summoning just as proxy is redlined. Take the area the elder spawns in the mines for the tuko event drop. Nothing but mages and tamers running about like chicken with their heads cut off when a shadow eli wanders in close. One mage loots a crappy mage weapon off a corpse and owns it. Or left it alone untill the scripters are NOT seeing the monochrome screens. (ya griefing to do the ballless GMs job because they couldn't take advantage of another of many perfect cheater traps. like a frostwood tree)

I'd like to see a new creature effect that they it can only take max 20 damage from any one source. Then players would have to get a pack of critters or break out those trained chicken lizards. Bring on the frenzy ossi pack. Or the archer/mage/weaver with 5 pixies for the win. Imbuers get rich off repeters and skinning knives with 30SSI.

More along the lines of this.

 

[Lady Mal]

Try to remember that some critters, like the golems and other clockworks, don't have ears. They are just mechanical. It makes no sense, realistically, for them to be affected by a sad melody, etc.

 

[Babble]

Yes but why do Dragons not attack Golems when ordered?
And if a Golem has no ears how do they get commanded?

 

[Hunters' Moon]

No, but my mystic thief keeps getting the message that he cannot cast that in town.

He doesn't do so good in this invasion going on. LOL

Although I have discovered a new, 100% invincible template - The Mystic Thief Ghost

Not being allowed to cast the full compliment of spells to defend a town during an invasion is beyond my understanding. Dragons and other pets that used to be wild and attack anyone on sight can tromp through the city without a problem. Melee'ers can use whirlwind which is in effect a type of aoe "spell". But noooooo mages are basicly told to 'stay home,we don't need you.'

This limitation makes just as much sense as not being allowed to cast 'create food' within 8 tiles of a npc chef or barkeeper.

 

[canary]

Try to remember that some critters, like the golems and other clockworks, don't have ears. They are just mechanical. It makes no sense, realistically, for them to be affected by a sad melody, etc.

You realize you just said 'it makes no sense' and 'realistically' about a game where you can polymorph into a piece of slimes, wield swords that create fireballs and and you can fight monsters that SOMEHOW hold onto a zillion of the same artifact (be it Night Eyes, Tinkers Legs, etc etc). How do these monsters carry this loot? In their stomachs?

I mean, 'realistically', a chicken couldn't use its mouth to make proper human sounds, but I know someone on Baja who rps as a talking chicken.

So... yeah. Your argument doesn't really hold well. Sorry.

 

[Gowron]

Quite frankly, players need to evolve play style for the environment not expect the environment to evolve to their playstyle.

nuff said.

 

[Babble]

You realize you just said 'it makes no sense' and 'realistically' about a game where you can polymorph into a piece of slimes, wield swords that create fireballs and and you can fight monsters that SOMEHOW hold onto a zillion of the same artifact (be it Night Eyes, Tinkers Legs, etc etc). How do these monsters carry this loot? In their stomachs?

I mean, 'realistically', a chicken couldn't use its mouth to make proper human sounds, but I know someone on Baja who rps as a talking chicken.

So... yeah. Your argument doesn't really hold well. Sorry.

We all know that monsters eat anything. So Ettins with rings and other stuff in their corpse are no surprises. Also they have bags where they keep their precious things, when evil humans/elves/gargoyles kill them for it.

As for the chicken...not the first wizard who cannot remember the spell to transfer back

I still would say though that if he is obnoxious he would fit in a soup pot!

 

[canary]

We all know that monsters eat anything. So Ettins with rings and other stuff in their corpse are no surprises. Also they have bags where they keep their precious things, when evil humans/elves/gargoyles kill them for it.

As for the chicken...not the first wizard who cannot remember the spell to transfer back

I still would say though that if he is obnoxious he would fit in a soup pot!

Awesome, now explain how swords 'realistically' create fireballs and lightning. Or how slayers 'realistically' work to create more damage just to one creature type, or how you would 'realistically' take more damage from an opposing type.

My point is: It is fantasy. It is the fantastic. Trying to even use the 'it makes no sense it isn't realistic' in a FANTASY GAME is the most inane way to try to make a point.

 

[Uvtha]

In response to this plus what you quoted, I would agree some critters should have immunity to certain things. I personally would not be against certain monsters being near invincible to a mage or melee type unless the monster has been discoed or other wise compromised.

I agree. I think its a better idea to give other stuff protection from other means of attack like magery or weapons, than to remove barding immunity from the few creatures that have it.

 

[Babble]

Awesome, now explain how swords 'realistically' create fireballs and lightning. Or how slayers 'realistically' work to create more damage just to one creature type, or how you would 'realistically' take more damage from an opposing type.

My point is: It is fantasy. It is the fantastic. Trying to even use the 'it makes no sense it isn't realistic' in a FANTASY GAME is the most inane way to try to make a point.

Magic swords! They have to do that!
As for slayers the monsters are allergic to the material.
We all know undead dislike silver, demon slayers are probably blessed, Fey slayers dripping in orc blood killing the little buggers!

As for taking more damage uhm.. the ...no idea ..must be your imagination getting more hurt

 

[phantus]

If the bard was limited to only the 4 bard skills I would agree with you. This is not the case and therefore, I disagree.

Bards are very powerful. Some things need to be non-bardable because it would make the bard too powerful when used with other skills.

There are plenty of players out there that can take a bard template and make it into a killing machine capable of nearly anything. I can and I know LG can. Removing their limitations would make them too powerful.

 

[canary]

No other template can walk in buck naked with a harp and have full offensive potential, plus the potential to take a boss or event monster totally out of the battle. Even a tamer has to worry about their pet dying if they themselves die.

Wrong.

And a provoker can only be as powerful as his/ her skill level and ALSO the power of the enemies that are able to be provoked.

BTW, a provoker doesn't do so hot with just one monster around. So, nice try on the defense... but you are wrong.