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Chiv Gains

Caitlyn Snow

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
So, to my dismay , Chivalry is taking FOREVER to max out.
I have 120d everything else, including healing, and it is taking me three times as long to train chivalry because of the slow casting.
Any tips would be appreciated (and the stamina Regen was put on the owner before me, I rescued this and tried to buff out what I could).

 

Spartan

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
If pets work same as characters then it does get slow - painfully slow. My Paladin has been 8 points shy of 120 for a really long time even tho he casts a lot! I'd say go hunting stuff that forces your pet to use ever more difficult Chiv spells.
 

Khyro

Sage
Stratics Veteran
So, to my dismay , Chivalry is taking FOREVER to max out.
I have 120d everything else, including healing, and it is taking me three times as long to train chivalry because of the slow casting.
Any tips would be appreciated (and the stamina Regen was put on the owner before me, I rescued this and tried to buff out what I could).
You will need to get someone to discord it, then just park it on something like a shadow elemental and keep whispering when you can. Chiv is probably the slowest magic to raise, but it will eventually get there. Some people do the Spellbinder method -- similar to leveling resisting spells, gather a couple spellbinders and hop on a boat. Moe away from shore and tell your pet to attack them. It will cast chiv spells and use remove curse on itself to clear the debuffs. This doesn't work for all pets (cannot have any ranged attack), and I didn't see a noticeable improvement over just have it fight a shadow ele while discorded, but it's another option.
 

Caitlyn Snow

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Would it not be better to leave it without discord? Discord drops the mana pool and meditation and focus. I’ve not discorded it and so far the spell casting has been pretty continuous.
 

Pawain

I Hate Skilling
Governor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
On the human chiv gain guide, it says there is no spell to spam to go from 115 to 120 if I am correct.

Discord it if you want gains.
 

Mandrake of DF

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Im training my dog discoed vs blood ellie in shame - its steady gains... 2,7 in 2 hrs from 110.5 to 113,2.
 

Basara

UO Forum Moderator
Moderator
Professional
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Note that, for PCs at least, the cap for skill gain is the PS value as the chance for success with a spell/skill use.

As most skills advance 0.2% per 0.1, this means that being scrolled to 120 means that you can gain on a spell for 10 skill points higher than if not scrolled at all (just really slow from it).
 

celticus

Crazed Zealot
UNLEASHED
Note that, for PCs at least, the cap for skill gain is the PS value as the chance for success with a spell/skill use.

As most skills advance 0.2% per 0.1, this means that being scrolled to 120 means that you can gain on a spell for 10 skill points higher than if not scrolled at all (just really slow from it).
Good info..Can you explain these two paragraphs a little bit? Thanks in advance..
 

PlayerSkillFTW

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Have the pet discorded while having it fight a Shadow Ore Ele or Gregorio, and use Whispering on cooldown. That's basically all you can do. It takes forever to get a pet to 120 Chiv, even with discord. Like 20+ hours after GM Chiv. Some Whispering sessions you won't even get a gain.
I got my 100% Cold Platinum Drake to 120.0 Chiv two weeks ago, and he stomps the Belfry GD. Now i just have my 100% Energy Platinum Drake, 100% Fire Crimson Drake, and Ossein Ram to get to 120 Chiv now :/
 

Khaelor

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Have the pet discorded while having it fight a Shadow Ore Ele or Gregorio, and use Whispering on cooldown. That's basically all you can do. It takes forever to get a pet to 120 Chiv, even with discord. Like 20+ hours after GM Chiv. Some Whispering sessions you won't even get a gain.
I got my 100% Cold Platinum Drake to 120.0 Chiv two weeks ago, and he stomps the Belfry GD. Now i just have my 100% Energy Platinum Drake, 100% Fire Crimson Drake, and Ossein Ram to get to 120 Chiv now :/
I was actually surprised when I saw your pets on TC before last patch that you didnt have Chiv leveled fully on them, since there is such a difference in damage. Congrats on the cold drake! Those are a beast on belfry.

Between Khyro and myself we've 120'd chivalry on over 200 pets. :wall: It does just take time and patience...and a subscription to Netflix~
 

Poo

The Grandest of the PooBah’s
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Campaign Benefactor
i like how you take a pic of your screen with your phone.
most people just hit the old 'print screen' button.
 

Caitlyn Snow

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
My computer barely lets me run UO anymore. And I find it quicker to do so. I don’t use the website for Stratics on my laptop for that reason. It’s just faster.

In other news I am almost done with Chiv!
Paying off a roommate who doesn’t work to sit at my desk and push buttons all day pays off well.
 

Basara

UO Forum Moderator
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Good info..Can you explain these two paragraphs a little bit? Thanks in advance..
I've explained it about 100 times over the last 15 years, so here's 101.

First, most skills have a ratio of 0.2% per 0.1 skill (2%/1), after you hit the minimum skill for the usage. Many of these start at 0.0% chance when you first gain access to the ability, others have a starting percentage. This is known as the "gain window" for the skill. If a skill use success starts at 0%, then there is a range of 50 skill where it is possible to gain skill from that specific use. If the use starts with a success chance above 0%, then the gain window is reduced accordingly. For example, most Tailor items start at 50%, so you only have the remaining 50% (25 skill points) as the window to gain off it - UNLESS you've used a Power Scroll.

Also, in the past, some devs mentioned that some skills (or subsets of actions/systems within some skills) used a different ratio than 2/1. I think things like 2.5/1, 3/1, 3.5/1, 4/3 etc. Chivalry MIGHT have been one of these, but might also have been altered when the devs decided to break it, to allow it to be used in PvP (Chiv intensity used to use Karma like magery does Eval, and skill level was a secondary influence on success chance for things like cleanse by fire and spell durations).

Examples, for skills without a power scroll used:
  • A specific blacksmith item can be created starting at 50.0 skill. at 50.0, the crafting is 0.0%; at 60.0 skill, the chance has increased to 20% (as the success chance advances 0.2% for every 0.1 skill, times 10.0 skill points). Without a power scroll being used, they can theoretically get skill gains from making that item all the way to 100.0, but gains will get few and far between after hitting 60% (80.0 skill)
  • A spell becomes available to a caster at 55.0 skill. If the skill is part of the 0.2% per 0.1 branch (some of them were mentioned that the might not be) then at 70.0 skill there should be a 30% success chance. At 100.0 skill the spell will cast 90% of the time, and will be able to gain on it all the way there.
  • Note that some low-level spell circles and crafting items state a 0.0 starting level, but that is because the displays for such are hard-coded to only show 0-100. In actuality, the success chance start point is a negative number, resulting in the positive chance for success at 0 skill - and therefore also reduces the skill gain window for that skill accordingly. Use from scroll (at least for mages) also lowers the effective circle by 2, for success chance (a Telekinesis from scroll has the same casting chance as a Night Sight cast normally, and a blade spirit from scroll has the same chance as a teleport cast normally - and the chance to gain is affected accordingly)
  • At 70 Tailoring, a character can start making an item 50% success chance. They will hit 100% success at 95.0 skill, and therefore cannot gain on it from 95.1-100.0, unless a power scroll used.
  • Some of the combat skills (Tactics, especially), use a ratio of the attacker's and defender's skill to determine their skill gain chance. As such, the skill gain window is still there, but it shifts location based on the comparative skill levels. This is why, for example, training a character or pet's Tactics is best done against something with +/-20 points of the skill level of the creature training.
And, so on. Note that crafting skills, with exceptional crafting chances, have a more complicated formula for that exceptional chance (usually starts at success chance -60, but there's an additional +0.3 per 0.1 skill from 95.1 to 100.0(artifact of the pre-PS era), so that for GM or higher skill it's "ex chance = normal chance -45")


Second: A character can gain from skill use on any attempt that has a lower success chance than their power scroll used in that skill, written as a percentage. Essentially, the skill gain window gets opened up wider (on the top end) from the application of the Power Scroll

If the skill is one that uses a 2%/1.0 ratio, then the following happens.

  • If a 105 Power Scroll is used, then any ability of the skill that would normally only give gains up to 100% success, will give gains up to 105% success chance. This equates to +2.5 added to the point where the chance to gain normally goes away. Note that for things with a visible success chance (crafting skills), the display doesn't go past 100%, so you have to do the math.
  • If a 110 Power Scroll is used, the skill gain chance range is extended to 110% success (+5.0 skill points beyond the unscrolled stop point, at 2/1)
  • If a 115 Power Scroll is used, the skill gain chance range is extended to 115% success (+7.5 skill points beyond the unscrolled stop point, at 2/1)
  • If a 120 Power Scroll is used, the skill gain chance range is extended to 120% success (+10.0 skill points beyond the unscrolled stop point, at 2/1)

Of course, if the skill uses one of the other ratios to calculate the Skill Gain Window, it gets complicated.

To go back to the earlier examples, scrolled to 120....

  • A specific blacksmith item can be created starting at 50.0 skill. at 50.0, the crafting is 0.0%; at 60.0 skill, the chance has increased to 20% (as the success chance advances 0.2% for every 0.1 skill, times 10.0 skill points). Without a power scroll being used, they can theoretically get skill gains from making that item all the way to 100.0, but gains will get few and far between after hitting 60% (80.0 skill). When a 120 Power Scroll is used, the skill can now be trained (very slowly) up to 110.0 skill.
  • A spell becomes available to a caster at 55.0 skill. If the skill is part of the 0.2% per 0.1 branch (some of them were mentioned that the might not be) then at 70.0 skill there should be a 30% success chance. At 100.0 skill the spell will cast 90% of the time, and will be able to gain on it all the way there. With a 120 Power Scroll, the caster would be able to gain skill from that spell up to 115.0 skill (105 was the 100% success point, with the theoretical 120% being at 115 (105+10)).
  • As noted before, Scrolls for Magery (at least) lower the required skill by 2 spell circles. So, the use of Circle 8 spell scrolls would only give gains in skill as long as you'd be able to gain skill from casting level 6 spells directly.
  • At 70 Tailoring, a character can start making an item 50% success chance. They will hit 100% success at 95.0 skill, and therefore cannot gain on it from 95.1-100.0, unless a power scroll used. With a 120 Power Scroll, the Tailor could gain skill making the item up to 105.0 skill. Note that this is the very principle behind nearly 20 years of crafting skill training guides on Stratics and elsewhere, as the guides were made to optimize skill gain to resource use (often crafting with a miniscule chance for a gain, until gains no longer possible, as it STILL ends up cheaper than moving to a harder items for faster gains). One of the more infamous elements of Tailor training is using Oil Cloths (1 cloth per), which can be used to gain to 99.6 without a Power Scroll, to 109.6 after using a 120 Power Scroll.
  • With the skills that use a "versus" means of determining gain chance windows, this would of course only expand the window of the PS user, and not necessarily by a regular amount.
 

PlayerSkillFTW

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
I was actually surprised when I saw your pets on TC before last patch that you didnt have Chiv leveled fully on them, since there is such a difference in damage. Congrats on the cold drake! Those are a beast on belfry.

Between Khyro and myself we've 120'd chivalry on over 200 pets. :wall: It does just take time and patience...and a subscription to Netflix~
Lol, yeah. I was watching YouTube, Netflix, and HBOGO while training the Platinum Drake, with an alarm going off every 30.5 mins for Whispering. The only "problem" with Chivalry damage, is that it isn't consistent. Hate how randomly the pet decides to use EoO, but when it does use it, it does a crapload of damage.

Still hoping that they release a token in the store that let's you reset a pet's training (and go back to the pet's original stats), wish i had put Chiv on my pre-patch 760 STR, 80 Cold Resist Pure WW. I have two other pre-patch WWs back on Napa, but neither have 760 STR or 80 Cold Resist. One of them, Hades, was tamed the very first week of T2A though, is a literal "First Generation WW" and has a few really old quirks about him (doesn't eat gold, roars instead of "grunts" when given commands, much more aggressive AI, etc), which is why i haven't leveled him yet with the new system, afraid it'll break some of his legacy features.
Hades.PNG
 
Last edited:

celticus

Crazed Zealot
UNLEASHED
I've explained it about 100 times over the last 15 years, so here's 101.

First, most skills have a ratio of 0.2% per 0.1 skill (2%/1), after you hit the minimum skill for the usage. Many of these start at 0.0% chance when you first gain access to the ability, others have a starting percentage. This is known as the "gain window" for the skill. If a skill use success starts at 0%, then there is a range of 50 skill where it is possible to gain skill from that specific use. If the use starts with a success chance above 0%, then the gain window is reduced accordingly. For example, most Tailor items start at 50%, so you only have the remaining 50% (25 skill points) as the window to gain off it - UNLESS you've used a Power Scroll.

Also, in the past, some devs mentioned that some skills (or subsets of actions/systems within some skills) used a different ratio than 2/1. I think things like 2.5/1, 3/1, 3.5/1, 4/3 etc. Chivalry MIGHT have been one of these, but might also have been altered when the devs decided to break it, to allow it to be used in PvP (Chiv intensity used to use Karma like magery does Eval, and skill level was a secondary influence on success chance for things like cleanse by fire and spell durations).

Examples, for skills without a power scroll used:
  • A specific blacksmith item can be created starting at 50.0 skill. at 50.0, the crafting is 0.0%; at 60.0 skill, the chance has increased to 20% (as the success chance advances 0.2% for every 0.1 skill, times 10.0 skill points). Without a power scroll being used, they can theoretically get skill gains from making that item all the way to 100.0, but gains will get few and far between after hitting 60% (80.0 skill)
  • A spell becomes available to a caster at 55.0 skill. If the skill is part of the 0.2% per 0.1 branch (some of them were mentioned that the might not be) then at 70.0 skill there should be a 30% success chance. At 100.0 skill the spell will cast 90% of the time, and will be able to gain on it all the way there.
  • Note that some low-level spell circles and crafting items state a 0.0 starting level, but that is because the displays for such are hard-coded to only show 0-100. In actuality, the success chance start point is a negative number, resulting in the positive chance for success at 0 skill - and therefore also reduces the skill gain window for that skill accordingly. Use from scroll (at least for mages) also lowers the effective circle by 2, for success chance (a Telekinesis from scroll has the same casting chance as a Night Sight cast normally, and a blade spirit from scroll has the same chance as a teleport cast normally - and the chance to gain is affected accordingly)
  • At 70 Tailoring, a character can start making an item 50% success chance. They will hit 100% success at 95.0 skill, and therefore cannot gain on it from 95.1-100.0, unless a power scroll used.
  • Some of the combat skills (Tactics, especially), use a ratio of the attacker's and defender's skill to determine their skill gain chance. As such, the skill gain window is still there, but it shifts location based on the comparative skill levels. This is why, for example, training a character or pet's Tactics is best done against something with +/-20 points of the skill level of the creature training.
And, so on. Note that crafting skills, with exceptional crafting chances, have a more complicated formula for that exceptional chance (usually starts at success chance -60, but there's an additional +0.3 per 0.1 skill from 95.1 to 100.0(artifact of the pre-PS era), so that for GM or higher skill it's "ex chance = normal chance -45")


Second: A character can gain from skill use on any attempt that has a lower success chance than their power scroll used in that skill, written as a percentage. Essentially, the skill gain window gets opened up wider (on the top end) from the application of the Power Scroll

If the skill is one that uses a 2%/1.0 ratio, then the following happens.

  • If a 105 Power Scroll is used, then any ability of the skill that would normally only give gains up to 100% success, will give gains up to 105% success chance. This equates to +2.5 added to the point where the chance to gain normally goes away. Note that for things with a visible success chance (crafting skills), the display doesn't go past 100%, so you have to do the math.
  • If a 110 Power Scroll is used, the skill gain chance range is extended to 110% success (+5.0 skill points beyond the unscrolled stop point, at 2/1)
  • If a 115 Power Scroll is used, the skill gain chance range is extended to 115% success (+7.5 skill points beyond the unscrolled stop point, at 2/1)
  • If a 120 Power Scroll is used, the skill gain chance range is extended to 120% success (+10.0 skill points beyond the unscrolled stop point, at 2/1)

Of course, if the skill uses one of the other ratios to calculate the Skill Gain Window, it gets complicated.

To go back to the earlier examples, scrolled to 120....

  • A specific blacksmith item can be created starting at 50.0 skill. at 50.0, the crafting is 0.0%; at 60.0 skill, the chance has increased to 20% (as the success chance advances 0.2% for every 0.1 skill, times 10.0 skill points). Without a power scroll being used, they can theoretically get skill gains from making that item all the way to 100.0, but gains will get few and far between after hitting 60% (80.0 skill). When a 120 Power Scroll is used, the skill can now be trained (very slowly) up to 110.0 skill.
  • A spell becomes available to a caster at 55.0 skill. If the skill is part of the 0.2% per 0.1 branch (some of them were mentioned that the might not be) then at 70.0 skill there should be a 30% success chance. At 100.0 skill the spell will cast 90% of the time, and will be able to gain on it all the way there. With a 120 Power Scroll, the caster would be able to gain skill from that spell up to 115.0 skill (105 was the 100% success point, with the theoretical 120% being at 115 (105+10)).
  • As noted before, Scrolls for Magery (at least) lower the required skill by 2 spell circles. So, the use of Circle 8 spell scrolls would only give gains in skill as long as you'd be able to gain skill from casting level 6 spells directly.
  • At 70 Tailoring, a character can start making an item 50% success chance. They will hit 100% success at 95.0 skill, and therefore cannot gain on it from 95.1-100.0, unless a power scroll used. With a 120 Power Scroll, the Tailor could gain skill making the item up to 105.0 skill. Note that this is the very principle behind nearly 20 years of crafting skill training guides on Stratics and elsewhere, as the guides were made to optimize skill gain to resource use (often crafting with a miniscule chance for a gain, until gains no longer possible, as it STILL ends up cheaper than moving to a harder items for faster gains). One of the more infamous elements of Tailor training is using Oil Cloths (1 cloth per), which can be used to gain to 99.6 without a Power Scroll, to 109.6 after using a 120 Power Scroll.
  • With the skills that use a "versus" means of determining gain chance windows, this would of course only expand the window of the PS user, and not necessarily by a regular amount.
Thank you Basara, info greatly appreciated. Now I should try to get a 120 taming scroll..
 

Anon McDougle

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Now i don't have a tamer that i play anyway but it would be nice if rather than saying just all kill you could give specific commands IE cast holy light Simba.
 

Cymidei

UO Pacific News Reporter
Alumni
Supporter
Stratics Veteran
Campaign Supporter
Why is it people in 2018 still don’t know how to make screenshots? Screeeeeenshots! Google it and don’t take pictures of your monitor


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Khaelor

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
One of them, Hades, was tamed the very first week of T2A though, is a literal "First Generation WW" and has a few really old quirks about him (doesn't eat gold, roars instead of "grunts" when given commands, much more aggressive AI, etc), which is why i haven't leveled him yet with the new system, afraid it'll break some of his legacy features.
They are what I refer to as Ultra Legacy. I have one white wyrm that is exactly like your Hades. As I have been collecting wyrms for the past year, they are extremely rare. They still retain their rehuing. Their hue used to be placed on top of a brown/red dragon model (much like the new color wyrms are rehued when they spawn. For a long time the old colored white wyrms have been the default hue of the model.


I have a set of nightmares that are the same way.

Left to right Ultra Legacy Nightmare, Standard Nightmare, Voidmare, Dreadmare

Also have some old dragons that honk when they fight.

If you decide to train Hades, he will retain the things that make him special, you can test it on TC, but Ralph has been partially trained since the release of 97. (He was the only white wyrm I had that would not slot jump when you started training back after 97)
 

Caitlyn Snow

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Why is it people in 2018 still don’t know how to make screenshots? Screeeeeenshots! Google it and don’t take pictures of your monitor


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If you had read my post about it earlier you’d see why. Read before you complain, or hop off my thread.

:cheerleader:
 

Keith of Sonoma

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Between Khyro and myself we've 120'd chivalry on over 200 pets. :wall: It does just take time and patience...and a subscription to Netflix~
Dang it, I only got a Netflix subscription a couple of months ago. Are you saying if I had bought it earlier my pets would already be at 120 Chivalry? ROFL :)

Truthfully though, I am a "latecomer" to Netflix, but I absolutely LOVE it. I have even watched a couple of the dubbed, foreign language SciFi/Horror series.
 

PlayerSkillFTW

Babbling Loonie
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
They are what I refer to as Ultra Legacy. I have one white wyrm that is exactly like your Hades. As I have been collecting wyrms for the past year, they are extremely rare. They still retain their rehuing. Their hue used to be placed on top of a brown/red dragon model (much like the new color wyrms are rehued when they spawn. For a long time the old colored white wyrms have been the default hue of the model.


I have a set of nightmares that are the same way.

Left to right Ultra Legacy Nightmare, Standard Nightmare, Voidmare, Dreadmare

Also have some old dragons that honk when they fight.

If you decide to train Hades, he will retain the things that make him special, you can test it on TC, but Ralph has been partially trained since the release of 97. (He was the only white wyrm I had that would not slot jump when you started training back after 97)
Yep, i also have an "Ultra Legacy" first generation Pure, Long Mane Mare, named "Apollo". Tamed him in Terathan Keep way back in 98. Pure Nightmares then stopped spawning for quite a few years, and while banksitting on Apollo (which was basically the only time i brought him out in the pre-bonding days), i would get offers of 2-3 Mill for him, which was an exorbitant amount at the time. Refused them all, so i still have him. I also haven't touched him either with the new pet leveling system.

Truthfully though, I am a "latecomer" to Netflix, but I absolutely LOVE it. I have even watched a couple of the dubbed, foreign language SciFi/Horror series.
Watched "Star Wars: The Last Jedi" on Netflix during the last time i trained Chiv on my Energy Drake. Wasn't really impressed with it. Altered Carbon was a pretty good series though, gives me some hope that Netflix can do what they need to do for the upcoming Witcher series, which has the potential to become the next GoT.
 

Keith of Sonoma

Grand Poobah
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Yep, i also have an "Ultra Legacy" first generation Pure, Long Mane Mare, named "Apollo". Tamed him in Terathan Keep way back in 98. Pure Nightmares then stopped spawning for quite a few years, and while banksitting on Apollo (which was basically the only time i brought him out in the pre-bonding days), i would get offers of 2-3 Mill for him, which was an exorbitant amount at the time. Refused them all, so i still have him. I also haven't touched him either with the new pet leveling system.


Watched "Star Wars: The Last Jedi" on Netflix during the last time i trained Chiv on my Energy Drake. Wasn't really impressed with it. Altered Carbon was a pretty good series though, gives me some hope that Netflix can do what they need to do for the upcoming Witcher series, which has the potential to become the next GoT.
There will be a new season of Altered Carbon BTW :).
 
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