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[General] BOD Value Calculations

Discussion in 'UO Craftsman' started by Dizzy, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    I was working on a new spreadsheet for calculating whether certain BODs were worth filling, though combining HLOOKUP and VLOOKUP in the same spreadsheet has become daunting to me. I wanted to create something with pulldown menus where you could select 10/EX/COPPER/PLATEMAIL/LBOD but haven't gotten there.

    As a check to see if my calculations were working, I first did a spot check on ingot prices on Atlantic based on available deeds (throwing out the outrageously priced ones and looking primarily at 1000 ingot deeds when available). More or less, these are the going prices today, with the odd observation that DC/Shadow actually costs more than copper:

    Iron 150 ea
    Dull Copper 145 ea
    Shadow 225 ea
    Copper 125 ea
    Bronze 150 ea
    Gold 175 ea
    Agapite 325 ea
    Verite 750 ea
    Valorite 2000 ea (really? Sheesh)

    Then I picked a middle of the road LBOD, 10/N/Copper Plate. I assumed at 120 Blacksmithing, no talisman, 100% success except for the tunic at 90% success, averaging 103 ingots per set. Multiply by 10 sets and 125 gold per ingot gives a total crafting price of 128,472.

    10/N/Copper Platemail provides 910 points, approximately enough to buy (2) POF (I know you can't actually buy 2, you can only get 1 and lose the remaining points, but the calculations are useful nonetheless.) On LS, POF prices have started to increase again, I've been selling them for 90,000 each. Based on these calcs, that's a profit of 40%.

    If I use the higher priced shadow ingots and take into account lost ingots due to lower success rate, I calculate for a 20/Ex/Shadow Plate LBOD a total of 168 ingots per set, then again multiply by 20 and then the ingot price to get a total cost of 758,000. 20/Ex/Shadow Platemail LBOD also yields 900 points at a substantially higher cost. Again, I get (2) POFs I can sell for a total of 180,000 gp, a net loss of 76%.

    As you can see, crafting costs are all over the map. If you're selling rewards, there are only a few reliable sellers. POF at 90k, Copper hammers at 225k, Bronze hammers at 265k. Based on what it costs to craft and using the gp/point ratio of POF, that's about 200 gp/pt. A copper runic hammer is 650 pts for 225k, or 346 gp/pt which is more profitable to sell.

    Then some things are squirrely to calculate. a 10N/Gold Platemail LBOD is 1030 ingots at a total cost of 179,861 and provides 810 points, just enough to cash in for a gold miner's map at 700 points (you could also cash in for a 800 +15 scroll, but you'd be an idiot for doing so). The miners map comes with a random number of charges, around 245 uses, netting you 490 golden ingots, about 1/2 the ingots it took you to claim the map at almost a 50% loss.

    Just an observation. I enjoy doing LBODs - it's something I can do while laggy on a hotspot tethering connection - but if I did my numbers right, LBOD collection is not a profitable endeavor unless I'm selective at which LBODs I'm going to do and whith which ingot.

    Hence the need for the spreadsheet I started working on.
     
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  2. Tamais

    Tamais Reporting for Lake Austin since April 2014
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    you are right on target. My friend, who is a blacksmith and tailor, picks out what she wants and usually tries to find either a small bod or a large one with the right points. Surprising that some of the small high level ores actually are better to use than the large ones. I look forward to seeing your spread sheet.
     
  3. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Do also note that on most shards, the population is small enough that the gold elementals in Blackthorns are not under constant farm.

    It takes about one hour to go through ALL the charges on a gold smelting talisman with 1 hunter that has both 120 melee skill (plus a slayer) and requisite mining for the talisman to work.

    For that reason, many of us crafters consider a gold map to be a waste of turn-in points. The relative ease in getting thousands of gold ingots also makes them less valuable, in some ways. In fact, most of my Agapite ingots in recent months have been from farming gold elementals, claiming a Gold-to-Agapite cauldron, and converting excess gold to 1/3 as much agapite. When I come across Agapite in the field (or gold, for that matter), I end up converting to Verite if possible (occasionally Valorite if naturally Agapite).

    My recent shortages, until a friend on Atlantic helped me out while I was cross-sharding back during the festival, have been DC & Copper, and after said help, now my sole shortage is in Shadow Iron. Ironically, the changes to the BOD system made it to where 70% of the DC & Gold BODs I used to fill no longer are worth filling (as, when there were BODs with 20% chance of POF, "Quantity had a quality all its own" - a situation the point system eliminated by putting the POF point value at the 90% drop level).
     
  4. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    I'm going to share my work in progress with the following caveats:
    a) it hasn't been checked
    b) I've only filled in ingot costs for ring/chain/plate, and anything related to weapons bods hasn't been completed yet
    c) Ingot usage is based on 120 real skill, no talismans. Not sure it's worthwhile to build-in a calculator for success chance for either lower skill or higher with talismans, and then including ancient hammers really makes it difficult to calculate.

    But I'd like feedback before I continue; it's easier to incorporate suggestions now than when I add in tailoring, tinkering, etc. I haven't wrapped my head around how to value when you're banking points instead of cashing them in, but I'm going to have to figure that out, if for no other reason to understand how much of a loss filling a BOD is. Banking points only offers a fraction of the value of cashing direct for a reward, so the numbers just get worse. I know it's the only practical way, though, to claim the high-end rewards.

    My takeaway after my first pass at this spreadsheet is that filling BODs for the purpose of selling the rewards is a huge gold-loss proposition. It's far more cost-effective to buy the rewards. Trying to convince people that POF should sell for 3 times the amount, though, isn't likely, at least not until people understand their costs.

    Instructions for using the spreadsheet are simple: your input goes in the yellow cells. Everything else is calculated and pulled from tables. The worksheet tabs are protected without a password, only to prevent errant keystrokes. The conclusion appears in the bottom right.
     
    #4 Dizzy, Mar 1, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
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  5. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    Updated, all I have time for today. The weapon BODs are complete now. I'm deciding whether to put in small BODs, and if so, do I really need to list all the 10/N/Dagger bods. Maybe just the shield bods would be fine.

    Among other things, playing with the ingot cost yields interesting finds. For a 20/Ex/Iron/Plate, you must buy iron ingots at 70gp ea if you want to sell a POF for a profit at 90k.

    Updated Rev 0.02 attached, I removed the prior 0.01. Adding Tailoring shouldn't be hard, but for Fletching and Carpentry that requires multiple resources, I'll have to do some more tweaking.

    Comments appreciated.
     
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  6. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    Ok, the tailoring LBODs are done, and starting on the Alchemy BODs. Haven't figured out yet how to account for the crushed glass in the Nexus Core since that component is actually a crafted item that in turn requires high blacksmithing skill, an expensive component, and a high failure rate.

    Anyway, v0.03 attached, probably won't get a chance to update it again until next week. THe good news is that early calculations show the tailor LBODs to be more profitable than the blacksmith BODs.
     
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  7. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    I played this weekend instead of working this spreadsheet, and even though it's useful only for a couple BOD collections, I realized it has a couple of extra uses -
    a) When crafting something like 20/Ex/Iron/Axes LBOD, I know exactly how many ingots to bring with me since it shows on the calculator. I picked up 620 iron ingots and used exactly 620 ingots. Nice.
    b) Filling in a 10/N/Copper/Ringmail LBOD was sort of depressing. I don't think crafters realize how much they're spending in resources for their LBODs. If they did, they wouln't be selling hammers and POF so cheaply. It cost me 580 ingots for 72,500 gp for a dull copper runic hammer that sells for 1/10th of that.
     
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  8. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Back in the day, when I last revised the FAQs for BOD material (about 8-9 years ago, before low runics became useful in imbuing), I made a note which smith BODs were actually worth filling based on cost vs. rewards (gold and physical reward). For example, compare the value of an EX 15 shadow plate LBOD to the rewards for the 6 smalls.

    Since then, ingot prices have tripled (originally due to speculators buying up colored ingots priced reasonably, then wanting hundreds of k for 1000 ingot deeds on their own vendor - which then drove many of the miners on my shard out of the ingot selling business, saving the ingots for themselves and guildmates, creating rarity that forced people to pay the obscene), throwing the values I worked with out of kilter.
     
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  9. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    I *think* this spreadsheet avoids that problem since the ingot value and the reward sale price is highlighted in yellow and easily changed. If ingots go up, type a few new digits and you're done.
     
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  10. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    I've added Alchemy and Fletching. Holy smokes I had no idea nexus cores cost so much. Elven slayers aren't any better.

    If any one is inclined to assist, here are the resources costs I'm using. If you think they ought to be tweaked, let me know:

    How much do resources cost?
    Iron 150
    Dull Copper 145
    Shadow 225
    Copper 125
    Bronze 150
    Gold 175
    Agapite 325
    Verite 750
    Valorite 2,000
    Cloth 10
    Leather 50
    Spined 75
    Horned 100
    Barbed 300
    Bone 20
    Mage Reagents 10
    Necro Reagents 10
    Empty Bottle 10
    Dark Sapphire 10,000
    Blue Diamond 10,000
    Crushed Glass 15,000
    Parasitic Plant 10,000
    Luminescent Fungi 10,000
    Fire Ruby 10,000
    Brilliant Amber 10,000
    Turquoise 10,000
    Perfect Emerald 10,000
    White Pearl 10,000
    Ecru Citrine 10,000
    Wood 50
    Oak 150
    Ash 250
    Yew 350
    Heartwood 450
    Bloodwood 550
    Frostwood 650
     
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  11. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    I think I'm going to pause in the development for a while; I learned enough to know that very vew BODs are worth it so you have to be choosy. BODs that use special gems or special wood can cause millions of gold in resources to fill.

    I didn't do banking points; large BODs are worth only 20% when banked, so the numbers get worse. Eventually, runic hammer prices will rise because it's so expensive; already I'm seeing POF prices go up from 60k to 100k in the last couple of month.

    I added a Cooking tab, but I don't have a cook, so I didn't complete it, but I'm not aware of any special materials that would make cooking BODs expensive.

    Anyway, I think this will be the last version for a while unless somebody has a request.
     

    Attached Files:

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  12. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Cooking: There are the following BODs that require non-food materials, though maybe not as special as the others....

    1. Fish Oil Flask. Requires Coffee grounds, which require you to have coffee plants (that you can only get from an old event item that only refills one month a year)
    2. Wheat Wort: requires empty bottles, which aren't cheap.
    3. The Enchanted Foods (uo.com calls it "Fruits") LBOD and its parts is pretty expensive to fill, from requiring potions and other rare items to make the items. It includes BODs for Enchanted Apples, Grapes of Wrath, Savage Kin Paint (requires the berries from the female savages), and egg bombs (the only easy one that requires only common items, of the 4)
    4. The Fruit Bowl requires wooden bowls, that can't be crafted, and come only from eating certain foods.
    5. The "Sweet Cocoa Butter" small for the "Dough" LBOD requires chocolatiering components.
     
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  13. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    To calculate total bod price, I need the chance to succeed for both normal and exceptional at GM.

    Can you estimate prices for those unique ingredients?

    Sent from mTalk
     
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  14. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    I'll give a few pointers, but can't really give realistic prices...
    1. (Fish oil flasks) Coffee grounds. You might want to check prices for the grounds, and for the coffee plants themselves, on Atlantic. Never seen them for sale out here in the wilderness. Each plant only produces 1 coffee per server up (does not accumulate on the plant), and it has to be harvested and ground. It's also 8 raw fish steaks per Fish oil flask.
    2. (Wheat Wort) Empty Bottles. Again, any NPC prices for them I might have would be out of kilter on LA compared to Atlantic. However, those prices should be easier to find on Atlantic than the coffee. But, 1 flour use from an open sack and water are close to negligible in comparison.
    3. (The Enchanted Foods/Fruits). Enchanted Apples require a Greater Heal potion (and the bottle is consumed) plus an apple (which can be expensive some places). Grapes of Wrath require grapes and a Greater Strength potion (again, the bottle is lost). Savage Kin Paint requires Flour and Tribal Berries - the latter I've not seen for sale on my shard since 2003.
    4. (The Fruit Bowl) Wooden bowls can't be crafted. Come from Bowls of Peas, one other purchasable food bowl (forget which), and IIRC one of the food bowls that can spawn from one of the Cornucopia / Horn of Plenty types (I believe from the older type from 2009 that refills all year, but only one charge a day for random crap)
     
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  15. SugarMMM

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    Thanks for putting this together! I have mountains of BODs that I need to start going thru and turning in and this helps a ton!

    If you get bored after you do all the BOD value calculators can you then do something for jewelry/armor/weapons to show if they're good/bad or keep/toss? Hehe
     
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  16. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    Ha, I might be able to figure out how much it *cost* but not what people will pay. That's still a mystery to me. :)
     
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  17. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    I'm not sure anybody else is using this tool; It's helped me tremendously on whether to fill a BOD or not, and I'm still finding small errors and completing the tables (Basara, I'll get to the cooking ones soon). This morning, I pulled a 10/Ex/Oak/Mystical Bow, and realized it would cost approximately 10 million gold to fill. Not a whole lot of sense in that, so I discarded all my elven bow bods this morning.
     
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  18. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    Last version for a while, it's mostly complete. I'll be adding various smalls if they're unique (like nexus core, which is already in there). Cooking skill has been added (though some sushi is listed at 0% chance for exceptional, since I'm not a cook, I don't know how you succeed at sushi).

    I already reorganized the interface; there's a navigation pane so you can just click "Tailoring" or "Cooking" to move around. I also had to move things because different versions of Excel handle data validation differently, so this fixes that problem.

    Feedback appreciated, enjoy.
     

    Attached Files:

    #18 Dizzy, Mar 14, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
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  19. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    WOW nice work.
    @Dizzy what program did you use? I opened it with Open Office and I am not sure if it downloaded properly. So far I am just looking at the Smith BODs.
     
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  20. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    For sushi, you have to have an exceptional bonus talisman and (preferably) a BOD reward apron to go with it, to exceptional. You make so much normal sushi it's a PITA, and you want the numbers to be as close as possible by having an exceptional-only talisaman and apron, but nothing that gives a bonus to the base craft chance.
     
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  21. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    Thanks, Lord Frodo. I used Excel 2016. Not sure how Open Office handles it, but make sure you're using that last BOD version I uploaded, 0.6b. The upper left should have a blue menu where you can click on Carpentry, Tinkering, etc. If that doesn't work in Open Office, then there should be separate tabs (sheets) that do the same thing. All of the craftable skills are there, and I'm slowly adding in the small BODs that are expensive liked winged helm for carpentry, etc.

    Yuck. Well, all of the other craftables I assumed a success chance based on the max normal skill possible (i.e. 120 for blacksmithing, 100 for Cooking). Maybe I should just use 1% for exceptional sushi?
     
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  22. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    I had fun tonight...

    I finally broke down and spent over an hour farming tribal berries, to complete 3 "Fruits"/enchanted items LBODs (normal, 2 20-count, 1 15 count) that I partially filled a couple months ago.

    Ended up with 3 aprons (2 26%, 1 29%), got an unbaked pie LBOD back that I bribed up (and its parts) to 20 EX, filled it, and turned it in for a plum tree.

    In all, a productive night (I got a 10 normal BBQ Large back as replacement after the plum tree, but I'll wait until tomorrow to bribe and fill it)
     
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  23. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    Excellent
    Excellent, and great rewards. :)

    I'm not sure I have the cost of the ingredients right; I have this:
    upload_2017-3-15_6-0-25.png

    But I have tribal berries listed like any other fruit and 10gp ea. It should be listed for the value you would sell a tribal berry for, the way parasitic plants are 1000gp ea.

    When the ingredients are free, every BOD is worth doing. On Atlantic this morning I can find 5 tribal berries for 125,000, or 25,000 each. If you value tribal berries at 25k each, though, the cost to fill the BOD goes up dramatically:

    upload_2017-3-15_6-14-49.png

    561k in gold due to the 22 tribal berries used. (note that the last uploaded spreadsheet doesn't break out the cost of tribal berries, so I'll have to upload my updated spreadsheet)

    So on one hand tribal berries are free, you just have to go hunt them. If you were to sell a stack of tribal berries, say 100 of them, how much would you charge? I think if somebody asked me to gather 100 berries, Id ask for something for my time, maybe 100k for 100 berries.

    What do you think?
     
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  24. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Slight misunderstanding

    The aprons were all from the Fruits LBODs.

    The Plum Tree was from a Unbaked Pies LBOD I got from turning in the Fruits LBODs as replacement BOD pull, and then I bribed up it to Ex 20 and the 4 smalls for the LBOD (thankfully the old BODs actually bribed up - only gotten one Ex small for that one, and that was last night as well).

    As for the Tribal berries, I'd probably charge about as much for 20 of them as people charge for Translocation powder (30 uses, enough for a bag), because there's about as much effort and danger collecting berries as there is in doing the Solen Matriarch quest. Alternatively, about 500-1000 per berry would be relatively fair, but only on a shard where there's not much demand or harvesting - you could probably command higher prices and have faster turnover on Atlantic. They are definitely far easier for a combat character to get than parasitic plant is from lumberjacking, but someone with only crafter mules doing the gathering is going to have a hard time. (and the paragons can be lethal from someone not combat optimized, as the savages tend to swarm you).
    My Mystic Mage in stone form had a couple close calls last night from multiple shamans spamming me with paralyze, just as my RC timed out, but that's from me literally sitting in the shaman spawn area farming them, with 1-3 spawning at a time, sometimes right next to me. (it would be easier with a reaper but I have SW stoned off for fishing until after the net toss I'm hosting as Brit Governor this weekend on LA).

    Also, do you have the correct fruit numbers for the fruit bowl small? It's actually 3 each of three different fruits, plus the wooden bowl. Not tried to download the spreadsheet yet to see if Quattro X8 (Wordperfect's spreadsheet, newest version) will convert it properly.
     
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  25. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    @Basara I'll set the default price for tribal berries at 1000 each. That's the ultimate goal of the spradsheet, if for some reason you could start buying them from vendors for 10 gold, only a single yellow highlighted cell needs to be changed. (Some people like to value resources at 0 gold if they farm themselves, but they should be valuing the time it takes to gather and how much they can sell them for).

    I think I've got the fruit quantities right, from UOGuide:
    upload_2017-3-16_10-44-46.png

    So 1 fruit per unbaked pie.

    So for a 20N LBOD, you'd need a total of 20 fruits for each pie at 100% success rate:
    upload_2017-3-16_10-46-14.png
     
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  26. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    The ingredients I was mentioning was for the Fruit BOWL, not the Fruit Pie.

    3 different fruits @ 3 quantity each, plus the uncraftable wood bowl that you have to buy and eat another specific food to get.

    I would use the uo.com wiki info, instead of uoguide, for the info. They've actually got all the BODs' value stated, plus another page giving each item with its ingredients.
     
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  27. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    Gotcha. Fruit bowls are smalls? Got a list of Cooking Smalls? I can use that to complete the Cooking resources tab.
     
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  28. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    Today's insight from my spreadsheet: I pulled a 20/N/Agapite/plate Helm. If I fill it as part of a LBOD, it's worth 900 pts and cost 668k gold in resources. I can cash it in for a Legendary Blacksmithing scroll (which may one day be worth something under the new BOD point system, but not at the moment).

    If I cash in 6 separate 20/N/Agapite smalls, though, that's111.3k gold in resources each. Each small is worth 500 points, or enough for a POF or DC Hammer.

    I think I'd rather have 6 POFs.
     
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  29. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
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    Alchemy / Gold Dust: Definitely not worth it.

    upload_2017-6-25_9-22-54.png
     
  30. Maximus Neximus

    Maximus Neximus Lore Keeper
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    @Dizzy I appreciate you sharing this with everyone. Is there any chance you've updated it to include small BODs?
     
  31. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Campaign Benefactor Treasure Hunters

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    I've included the most egregious small BODs, like Nexus Core and Woodland Arms and Raven Helm and Farspeaker. Most of the other smalls don't matter, and my spreadsheet showed that filling most smalls because of the fractional point banking system are awfully expensive to fill. The only reason to fill most of them is solely because you want a better BOD out of it.

    Happy to share the latest, and it's pretty easy to add another small, so if there's a particular one added, let me know.
     

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