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Being a vegetarian....

M

Masumatek

Guest
I'll reply to some other posts later but the reasons I'm becoming a vegetarian include but is not limited to: health, and the animal rights and environmental problems meat eating causes.

What's on the other side? Taste....and I hope the power of my mind can overcome my taste desires, plus I'm sure there's tasty veggy foods that I'll find as I become a more experienced vegetarian. Personally I've thought about becoming a vegetarian for a long time but have always given in to taste, but now I'm going to try it. I feel the world would be better off if everyone was a vegetarian or at least ate a lot less meat. Speaking of which, Americans eat wayyyyyyyy too much meat compared to the rest of the world.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Try sechuan tofu stir fry with lots of different vegetables. It's good.
 
R

Rykus

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

Seriously though, I just helped with a Cancer diet. I found foodnetwork.com to be extremely helpful with everything from nutrition info., to tons of recipes that you can search by ingredients.
Truth is, our human bodies are not meant to completely exlude meat from our diets. Wether its an adaptation or God, everything from our teeth to our digestive system is designed for us to be omnivours. This is why most vegans have to take a ton of supplements (or be underweight and lacking in energy). It depends on just how "vegetarian" you have to be. If you avoid fish and dairy, it will be more difficult to include protein and iron in your diet without supplements and protein drinks.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I have found in my research also, despite what my very pale and sickly looking vegetarian friend likes to say to the contrary. I have no doubt that removing red meat from our diet is a good thing, but I also feel that the complete absence of meats, such as fish and poultry, in our diet isn't necessarily a good thing either. I personally just limit my red meat intake and try to eat more vegetables and choose meats that i feel are more healthy. We eat mostly salmon and chicken instead of red meats. Will have a steak maybe 3-4 times a year, though that's more for my wife than myself. She grew up, among other places, in Texas.
 
M

Masumatek

Guest
I plan on excluding all meat anything from my diet. As far as eggs and milk, I don't think I'll do eggs but will still drink milk/eat cheese/etc.
 
I

imported_Leaf

Guest
What I have experienced is --- it is all about finding the ballance. You know when you are lacking certain nutrients because you start having cravings. I may eat mostly raw fruits and veggies for a few days and then I feel like I need to add cooked foods or some carbs for a bit. I'll make a veggie burger and use a grilled portabella mushroom for bread. Salmon and Tiliapia are a nice switch when you are craving protein other then lentils and beans. I can make a meal out of baked potatoes stuffed with goodies. The more you experiment the more you will like it.
 
R

Rykus

Guest
Mas, does that include fish? The reason I ask is that from what I know, and please enlighten me if I'm off-base here, fish aren't in the same category as other sources of meat with regards to how they're treated. You said that part of this is animal rights related, which I totally agree with (though my convictions aren't strong enough to not eat beef entirely), but I have no problems eating fish, particularly wild caught fish. I stay away from farm raised fish because of the mercury content and use of horomones/antibiotics/chemicals they use in fish farms.

So I guess more specifically, is there an ethical issue with eating wild caught fish, like atlantic salmon?
 
I

imported_mo'gluk

Guest
try elk its one of the best meats I have had.. a good cow elk (pferrably pre-5 years is great). Bulls are only good for my wall.... same goes for moose
 
I

imported_Death of Hemp

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

I plan on excluding all meat anything from my diet. As far as eggs and milk, I don't think I'll do eggs but will still drink milk/eat cheese/etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Egg whites and beans are a good healthy way to keep protein in your diet. Consider just using egg whites.
 
I

imported_Death of Hemp

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

Mas, does that include fish? The reason I ask is that from what I know, and please enlighten me if I'm off-base here, fish aren't in the same category as other sources of meat with regards to how they're treated. You said that part of this is animal rights related, which I totally agree with (though my convictions aren't strong enough to not eat beef entirely), but I have no problems eating fish, particularly wild caught fish. I stay away from farm raised fish because of the mercury content and use of horomones/antibiotics/chemicals they use in fish farms.

So I guess more specifically, is there an ethical issue with eating wild caught fish, like atlantic salmon?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are not eating meat from an animal rights standpoint, then yes. Fish have a nervous system, they feal pain (fish hooks and suffication). Growing up in a family of hunters, and being an avid fly-fisherman myself, I can assure you that fish react, and trout will make noise when you pull the hook out. It's obvious they feal pain.

Earthworms, however, have no nervous system and are high in protein. Other than the fact that our society deems earthworms as "gross" they are a great solution for the animal rights activist who only avoids meat because they are not comfortable with their food having been a living being that feels pain. And yes, I have eatin earthworms....they can be quite good if prepared well and are common food in other cultures.
 
M

Masumatek

Guest
I don't know as much about fish as in how they're treated...I agree on the raised fish, and there are mercury problems and other contaminants with all fish, raised or not.

What I do know is a HUGE environmental issue though is overfishing.
 
M

Masumatek

Guest
I also feel if we can survive on a no-meat diet, and we definitely can, then we should. It's not just about how they're treated...if we don't need to be eating animals, I don't think we should be. I guess I'm a big softy though. Heh, I hate bugs but instead of killing em I usually catch them in cups and let them outside...
 
G

Guest

Guest
Mercury is a problem only with bottom-feeders like flounder, skate, and catfish. Open ocean fish like cod, haddock, mahi-mahi (flipper), shark, and swordfish are ok for mercury.

Salmon, however, bothers me a bit cuz it's often farm raised and there's serious problems with quality control in many of those farms. Plus the jellyfish love to raid the salmon farms.
 
M

Masumatek

Guest
I heard at the Salmon farms down in Chile the salmon are often fed dog food...not sure if it's true or not, but yuck.
 
M

Masumatek

Guest
http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/fishadvice/advice.html

"Do not eat Shark, Swordfish, King Mackerel, or Tilefish because they contain high levels of mercury."

"nearly all fish and shellfish contain traces of mercury"

Swordfish is huge on mercury man. Very bad for you.

Also that EPA website is giving a warning to pregnant women/young children, but mercury can have negative affects on all people.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Well I am a big softie as well and thus my own self could not kill something to eat it, unless perhaps I was starving to death, then sorry bird or phesant or bunny might end up dinner.

But we have meat markets and grocery stores and there are countless numbers of folks that raise animals FOR our eating. Chicken farmers, hog and cattle raisers, turkey raisers, etc. all provide us with meat for our tables if we choose to eat meat and yes these animals were raised *TO* be eaten not spared as pets. That is one reason I myself refused to actually raise animals for food.. I would give them all a pet name and never send them to the slaughter houses. . hense I would make a lousy meat raiser farmer rancher type of person.

Do we HAVE to eat meat, probably not. But there are folks whom rely upon the meat eaters in any given society for their own incomes too. I am not one to put all those folks on some unemployment lines either.

We have always been given a choice even back to biblical times Paul refused to eat pork being of one faith, and yet later on he said to others whom ate pork saying all things in moderation not overdosing, is not a bad thing either, and depending upon whom is raising your meat and processing it and packaging it and shipping it to your local storemarket for us to buy to eat, it is ok to eat it.

Course hubby is a deer hunter. Many a deer hunter type will also say overpopulation of some species is not good, not healthy for them, not healthy for us, that some need to be culled out ie killed to keep their numbers down. One can argue the pros and cons of deer hunting till hell freezes over, but both sides will have valid arguements for and against deer hunting for *meat* on the table.

In the end it is still a personal choice and luckily many people have some freedom of choice in what they do decide to eat..their choices...we should though all keep in mind there are people even in this nation that get very little choices, they are going to bed hungry. The *system* does not help them, or does not know about them, they may have lost their jobs or did not have one for long if a place closed on them esp. some smaller towns and they can not afford relocations or natural disasters tons of things and their kids going to bed tonite hungry...our soft hearts should be also caring about the hungry nation wide and globe wide, they would be greatful for a loaf of homemade warm bread to eat, cans of fruits and veggies, and some would cry even weep to be given a ham or chicken for their christmas but chances are they won't get one..if we do not remember to donate to those whom get very little choices in what they get to eat...because they are going to bed hungry tonite.

Please go donate foods to local food banks, or send the local organisations some rl gp... tis the season and hungry hurts worse feels worse any time of year but even more worse when others are pigging out on holiday foods be these veg. or meat eaters and they're still going to bed hungry this holiday season.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

Mercury is a problem only with bottom-feeders like flounder, skate, and catfish. Open ocean fish like cod, haddock, mahi-mahi (flipper), shark, and swordfish are ok for mercury.

Salmon, however, bothers me a bit cuz it's often farm raised and there's serious problems with quality control in many of those farms. Plus the jellyfish love to raid the salmon farms.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that isn't really accurate. Any top of the chain fish predator can have higher concentrations of mercury because what they eat has it, and it builds up in the tissues the higher it goes up the chain. The EPA has charts with main food fish species, and average mercury levels, from testing. Sharks, king mackerel, swordfish, and tuna are among the very highest. Generally, it is recommended that pregnant women and younger children eat the "higher risk" types of fish no more than 3 times per month or avoid them altogether.

Catfish, flounder, and other "bottom dwellers" ironically have the lowest mercury concentrations in their tissues in general.

The departments of health for individual states typically post wild caught fish mercury statistics and health advisories.

(Here is an example for Florida)

-Skylark

*edit* LOL...I was slow, Mas already covered this
 
G

Guest

Guest
Hey, I really respect your motives. Very few people are willing to put their convictions ahead of their visceral satisfaction.

I'm lucky because I'm a rare late convert that never really missed meat. I guess I didn't eat it THAT much in the first place.

Theres a kind of veggie burger made by morning star called "griller's prime" that has a very good texture, and is very similar in taste to meat as textured veggie meat replacements go. They also make a very good hotdog/corndog that tastes pretty regular. But the health aspects (or lack thereof) of soy are suspect, so I wouldn't make soy protein stuff you main source of protein for too long.

Lotta beans like was already mentioned, snack on nuts and pumpkin seeds or something, lot of pasta and rice... I wish I had more advice but I don't eat as well as I should.

As for eggs and milk, I eat both, and you can get both from sources that respect the animals. Around here we have a company that sells natural milk without hormones or anything like that, and it comes in glass bottles, that you return when you get a new jug, and you can get this at the supermarket, and it tastes very good. If they don't have something like this near you I'm look to local health food stores for milk.

Eggs from vegetarian free range chickens are pretty easy come by in pretty much all grocery stores, but you can also find those in the health food stores. And as person who once got eggs from his own chicken, they don't give a flying fig about the eggs, so don't feel bad about eating them. The animal doesn't care.

And of course eat as many various vegetables of many colors as possible.

I think the main problem is the difficulty in feeling "full" when you start out. So make sure you eat a lot, and include a lot of pasta and soy meats and whatnot, as they will help.

And it is true that vegetarians can be unhealthy, you have to take time with your food and be sure you are eating the right stuff in the right amounts. My most difficult problem is maintaining protein levels. I don't want to eat eggs every day, so I have to stick with beans and nuts, and having milk for my breakfast every morning. If you have the money and don't mind it there are plenty of whey protein shake mixes...

Once you do it for a month or two it gets a lot easier. Good luck to you fellow!
 
M

Masumatek

Guest
Heh. Thank you:).

It sure does suck now though! Hehe. Actually, what really stinks is that my last meat meal was crappy Taco Bell. I should have waited till after New Years and ended my meat-eating life on a good note! Aww well.
 
J

Jason619

Guest
A good idea might be to search on google for some vegetarian/vegan forums. I'm sure if you found one you could find plenty of people to exchange ideas with a get a lot of meal ideas.

You could also look at restaurant menus and steal their vegetarian ideas.
 
G

Guest

Guest
LOL masumatek you would be a vegatarian.

Unfortunatly ill NEVER be a vegatarian because its simply disgusting.

Ever dated a vegatarian? They fart ALL the time, and i dont mean the kind you dont notice, i mean FARTS that will infiltrate your clothes and last for days and turn milk into cheese in 5 seconds flat.

Ohh and the farts aren't even the begining, wait until the [censored] come, purtrid liquids of decaying plant matter plus the smells will pour out of your bathroom and make little kids run away in fear.

all im saying is YUCK.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Good toco bell tip: Get your toco supreme with beans instead of meat, they taste great. I used to get them when I did eat meat. and they also have a 99 cent bean burrito that is pretty filling and has rice and guac and lettuce and tomato in it. And there are a lot of better fast food type toco places around that will have veggie stuff.

I also know burger king has veggie burgers or a "veggie wopper" which is just a whopper with no meat and extra veggies. Those are pretty tasty actually. And you can still have fries of course.

Also check the local Mexican restaurants if you like Mexican. They usually have a lot of great vegitarain options like spinach enchiladas or whatnot.

Asian and middle eastern cuisine are also other great options. They are both pretty much guaranteed to have tasty meatless dishes. Falafel is pretty great and filling.

I've got a lot of practice eating out with friends who are not vegetarians and it almost always is fine. Just avoid places like red lobster unless you don't mind a pasta in tomato sauce side and cheese biscuits for dinner like I have to have every holiday my family goes out to eat together heh.
 
B

BennosMorales

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

sucks. Any advice if any of you are vegetarians? I need a veggy cookbook or something or I'm gonna go nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

.... ... .... .. .... ..... ....... ...? ..... ..... ..... Beef .. .... ...... ....... !!!

(at no period was I not within' the RoC)

 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

I'll reply to some other posts later but the reasons I'm becoming a vegetarian include but is not limited to: health, and the animal rights and environmental problems meat eating causes.

What's on the other side? Taste....and I hope the power of my mind can overcome my taste desires, plus I'm sure there's tasty veggy foods that I'll find as I become a more experienced vegetarian. Personally I've thought about becoming a vegetarian for a long time but have always given in to taste, but now I'm going to try it. I feel the world would be better off if everyone was a vegetarian or at least ate a lot less meat. Speaking of which, Americans eat wayyyyyyyy too much meat compared to the rest of the world.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are doing this for a chick huh?
 
A

Alex the Gray

Guest
you are SO right. Meat is better eaten as a supplement and booster to our diet- not as a main course
 
A

Alex the Gray

Guest
fried (gah! I know! Fried is bad!) tofu is different from regular tofu. People that don't like regular tofu may LOVE fried tofu. Just a suggestion
 
A

absimiliard

Guest
<blockquote><hr>


.... ... .... .. .... ..... ....... ...? ..... ..... ..... Beef .. .... ...... ....... !!!

(at no period was I not within' the RoC)



[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!!!!!


My wife did this a few years back, okay more than a few. When she turned 30 she decided that she was tired of thinking of being a vegetarian and actually became one.

It's changed our diet a bit, these days my meat is mostly during lunch which we eat apart. But it worked fine for her, with some monitoring of her protein intake.

I've PM'd Mas a bunch of her advice. But while I AM A MEAT LOVER myself, I do applaud putting his mouth where his morals are. Just not my personal thing.

For whoever mentioned Taco Bell subbing beans for meat, you should check that they aren't making those beans with lard. There's chicken stock in a lot of restaurant dishes you wouldn't expect it be in as well. The BK Veggie burger pleases my wife though, again I prefer the bacon double cheeseburger for myself.

-abs
 
E

Exzordor_TnT

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

Good toco bell tip: Get your toco supreme with beans instead of meat, they taste great.

[/ QUOTE ]

just so you guys know, Taco Bell uses ANIMAL LARD.

You cant eat bean burritos and not eat animal by products.

Mexican food in general uses tons of Lard.

Lard = defined as PIG FAT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lard

I can live without taco Bell, have for years, and i make my own bean burritos at home and save the money.
 
E

Exzordor_TnT

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

I plan on excluding all meat anything from my diet. As far as eggs and milk, I don't think I'll do eggs but will still drink milk/eat cheese/etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you are concerned about your health, realize this.

You get more of the "bad" stuff from eggs and dairy. If you think the flesh of a cow is bad for you, I assure you, the milk of the cow contains just as much of the bad stuff.

I have a book called YOU DONT NEED MEAT"

read it, it goes into this, how many veggies give up meat, but keep eating milk and dairy, eggs - they never realize just by eating those few things, it ruins the entire lifestyle.

You either give it all up or none. Eating eggs of animals is not good for ANY SPECIES.

I substitute ground flax seed and a little vanilla soy milk ground up as egg replacer, and it works great.

Everyone loves my no-dairy.egg pancakes, I cook them every morning for my wife.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

For whoever mentioned Taco Bell subbing beans for meat, you should check that they aren't making those beans with lard.

-abs

[/ QUOTE ]

They used to I think, but apparently not now. (I definitely recall that a local mom &amp; pop Mexican food place near where I live used to advertise that, unlike Taco Bell, they used no lard in their refried beans, although they were playing on the saturated/hidden fat issues rather than vegetarian/vegan issues in that ad.) It seems that Taco Bell only uses partially hydrogenated corn oil in the beans now. Still not so great in terms of saturated fat, but it isn't animal based at least. (Linky to Taco Bell ingredient list).

And as abs says, chicken, beef, and seafood (usually clam or shrimp) stocks are staples added to many restaurant dishes, including "meatless" pasta sauces. Asian vegetable recipes often call for fish sauce, and anchovy paste. It gives them added flavor.

Animal products are pretty ubiquitous in just about every culture.

-Skylark
 
C

Cleopatra

Guest
I eat quite a lot of this stuff Mas. I can't cook very well myself though so I expect it tastes better if you can, hehe. Quorn chicken style pieces are much better than beef style, and the bacon style looks rather weird but it's all quite edible...try it.

I'm only a part-time veggie and that's because I had one of those Ginsters steak pies one day and saw a big vein thingie in it, it put me right off meat for ages.


Link to Quorn site: http://www.quorn.com/
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

steak pies

[/ QUOTE ]

Steak pies?


[/ QUOTE ]

She lives in England...remember, they are nuts and put all sorts of stuff in pie crust over there, including *gag* kidneys!


-Skylark

P.S. to Beatrice Quill in advance: no you CAN'T have your colonies back!!
 
G

Guest

Guest
I wanted to add one more quote from that article which struck me:

<blockquote><hr>

The predators living at the same time as Australopithecus afarensis were huge and there were 10 times as many as today. There were hyenas as big as bears, as well as saber-toothed cats and many other mega-sized carnivores, reptiles and raptors. Australopithecus afarensis didn't have tools, didn't have big teeth and was three feet tall. He was using his brain, his agility and his social skills to get away from these predators. "He wasn't hunting them," says Sussman. "He was avoiding them at all costs."

[/ QUOTE ]


It is proven that early man was a "gatherer" i.e. a fruit and nut eater.
 
E

Exzordor_TnT

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

I wanted to add one more quote from that article which struck me:

<blockquote><hr>

The predators living at the same time as Australopithecus afarensis were huge and there were 10 times as many as today. There were hyenas as big as bears, as well as saber-toothed cats and many other mega-sized carnivores, reptiles and raptors. Australopithecus afarensis didn't have tools, didn't have big teeth and was three feet tall. He was using his brain, his agility and his social skills to get away from these predators. "He wasn't hunting them," says Sussman. "He was avoiding them at all costs."

[/ QUOTE ]


It is proven that early man was a "gatherer" i.e. a fruit and nut eater.

[/ QUOTE ]

without going intit,... i gotta run....

the "man was a hunter" theory has long been proven to be false, its only used by meat eaters, NOT scientists.

in fact, women are credited with the gathering. Man wanted to write himself as a "hunter predator" and we know who wrote the history books, but the truth is, women gathered food and started agriculture, and if it had not been for that effort we would have died off long ago.

Man was not a hunter, he was a gatherer.
 
A

absimiliard

Guest
Mas's looking for advice on how to become a vegetarian, not for physical anthropology theory Ex.

You yourself said to keep scientific debate off the boards and in the books. It's a good comment. Stick w. it, this is no place for academically correct citations. None of which either you or your opponents are providing anyway.

Sheesh, next thing you know someone will bring up the aquatic ape theory if you don't require citation.

-abs
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

steak pies

[/ QUOTE ]
Steak pies?


[/ QUOTE ]
She lives in England...remember, they are nuts and put all sorts of stuff in pie crust over there, including *gag* kidneys!

-Skylark
P.S. to Beatrice Quill in advance: no you CAN'T have your colonies back!!


[/ QUOTE ]
MMMMMM!! Frey Bentos steak n kidney pie in a tin.
@ Massu. I don't know where you are to point you in the right direction for where to get fresh produce but I did google a few sites for ya.
http://www.vrg.org/

Here is Craigslist Vegan forum
http://seattle.craigslist.org/forums/?forumID=2400
 
G

Guest

Guest
Well, milk yeah, its bad for you, eggs, good and bad from what I know, but I have also heard that soy can also be very bad for you depending on how much you eat.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Click this link Az, pic of a steak pie. What do you Merikans call them? *grins*

http://www.weeklygripe.co.uk/a250.asp

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot pie!

Chicken potpie! Beef Potpie! I've seen shrimp ones in Texas, *gag*

[/ QUOTE ]

Eeeep! Never encountered the shrimp pot pie phenomenon.

On the "pot pie" theme, there is the "Shepherd's Pie" but I guess putting a baked topping of mashed potatoes on a savory dish which really has no crust, mitigates the whole pie thing, in spite of its name, but then again, I think the Shepherd's Pie got its start in England and Scotland, so that explains its craziness.


-Skylark
 
I

imported_Goron

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

I wanted to add one more quote from that article which struck me:

<blockquote><hr>

The predators living at the same time as Australopithecus afarensis were huge and there were 10 times as many as today. There were hyenas as big as bears, as well as saber-toothed cats and many other mega-sized carnivores, reptiles and raptors. Australopithecus afarensis didn't have tools, didn't have big teeth and was three feet tall. He was using his brain, his agility and his social skills to get away from these predators. "He wasn't hunting them," says Sussman. "He was avoiding them at all costs."

[/ QUOTE ]


It is proven that early man was a "gatherer" i.e. a fruit and nut eater.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have got to respond to this... A Afarensis was NOT MAN. A Afarensis was acestor to man. That is all.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

I heard at the Salmon farms down in Chile the salmon are often fed dog food...not sure if it's true or not, but yuck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Louisiana catfish farms do the same thing, fling a bucketful of kibble out in the water twice a day and watch it erupt.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I wanted to add one more quote from that article which struck me:

<blockquote><hr>

The predators living at the same time as Australopithecus afarensis were huge and there were 10 times as many as today. There were hyenas as big as bears, as well as saber-toothed cats and many other mega-sized carnivores, reptiles and raptors. Australopithecus afarensis didn't have tools, didn't have big teeth and was three feet tall. He was using his brain, his agility and his social skills to get away from these predators. "He wasn't hunting them," says Sussman. "He was avoiding them at all costs."

[/ QUOTE ]


It is proven that early man was a "gatherer" i.e. a fruit and nut eater.

[/ QUOTE ]

without going intit,... i gotta run....

the "man was a hunter" theory has long been proven to be false, its only used by meat eaters, NOT scientists.

in fact, women are credited with the gathering. Man wanted to write himself as a "hunter predator" and we know who wrote the history books, but the truth is, women gathered food and started agriculture, and if it had not been for that effort we would have died off long ago.

Man was not a hunter, he was a gatherer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, yea, thanks for validating my point...?
 
I

imported_mo'gluk

Guest
man may have been essentially a gatherer, but it is proven that man hunted even from the earliest times (much of that is predicated upon meat eaters that were bigger and stronger and thus propogated more) much of our meat heavy diet is not super healthy but an amount of meat is very healthy, our inability to synthesize a few key amino acids forces us to gather it from protein heavy sources....whether it be a protein type plant or killing furry critters.
 
G

Guest

Guest
<blockquote><hr>

man may have been essentially a gatherer, but it is proven that man hunted even from the earliest times (much of that is predicated upon meat eaters that were bigger and stronger and thus propogated more) much of our meat heavy diet is not super healthy but an amount of meat is very healthy, our inability to synthesize a few key amino acids forces us to gather it from protein heavy sources....whether it be a protein type plant or killing furry critters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Riddle me this, what does an orc know about human eating habits...?

HA!
 
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