Before you get excited about Shroud of the Avatar ...

[Orich]

If you are excited about a single player Ultima-series game, ok I understand. Hope you have fun

But if you're hoping that SotA is some UO-killer ... it has a multitude of focuses that are not conducive to the experience your romantic brains are hoping for, and certainly not good for a scalable MMO in general.

A few concerns :

1. Selective Multiplayer with instanced servers. The game will offer capped instanced servers for it's social online gameplay.

2. Built on the Unity3D engine. This is, by far, the worst part of the entire game. The Unity3D engine is a bloated, kludgy, and insecure framework for building a serious game. Furthermore, the engine does not include a uniform server methodology.

What does that mean?

The SOTA dev team will have to either A) build their own server software B) use a third party server software. Since they don't seem to have the resources for A, we can probably count on B. And duct-taping third party software to Unity3D is a precarious business.

Both have pro's and con's ... but if you thought the exploiting, hacking, and scripting of UO is/was bad ... you will be in for a wild ride of both client-side and server-side hacks in this game.

3. No persistent database = No rares ... at least, not what we're used to

One of the amazing things about UO is a result of it's age and, for lack of a better term, bad coding. UO is unique in the fact that changes/patches are not retroactive across the items database.

For instance, in WoW ... back in the day, you could get items with elemental damage. A wand with Cold Spell Damage for instance. When they changed it to a flat Spell Damage, ALL ITEMS in the game were changed retroactively. That wand changed to spell damage for good.

UO does not do this -- and I'm not aware of any other game of mention that doesn't, and I've played most of them.

Is it impossible for SotA to implement something like this? Nope. If you've seen Unity3D lately, it'd be a tremendous effort ... and something I doubt they will spend any time on. $3million is not a lot of money to develop a serious title, and they can't squander their resources.


"Why did they use Unity3D in the first place?" you may wonder.

Well, Lord British himself has said it indirectly. They want to focus on mobile platforms ... iPad, iPhone, Android, etc. Unity3D, in all its bloatedness, is useful for exactly that -- creating cell phone games that cross compile across all platforms.

If you're still skeptical about my opinions above, then let this detonate in your mind -- Imagine if World of Warcraft was created with the same tools as Doodle Jump, or Angry Birds. Now tell me how successful it would've been with those kinds of limitations.

You can't make a great game focusing on the wrong things. In my opinion, SotA doesn't have its eye on the prize.

It has its eye on Facebook and iPhones, and not the PC gamers that drool for UO 2.0

 

[Lefty]

There are multiple MMO network frameworks available for the Unity 3d Engine. Most Unity Developers agree the native networking falls short in performance.

 

[Winter]

If you are excited about a single player Ultima-series game, ok I understand. Hope you have fun

This is pathetic. Why are you writing a hack piece? If you don't like SOTA, don't play it. I have no interest in playing the game, but I see no point in trashing it either.

 

[Orich]

This is pathetic. Why are you writing a hack piece? If you don't like SOTA, don't play it. I have no interest in playing the game, but I see no point in trashing it either.

Was it your intention to be utterly vacuous? If so, you've succeeded.

 

[Winter]

Was it your intention to be utterly vacuous? If so, you've succeeded.

Not at all. Your opinion piece isn't factual, isn't informational, and really doesn't belong in UHall.

But I am curious why you feel you must trash someone else's work. Well, not curious enough to read your response.

 

[Viper09]

So I'm guessing you're not a fan of a game that isn't even out yet...

 

[Orich]

Not at all. Your opinion piece isn't factual, isn't informational, and really doesn't belong in UHall.

But I am curious why you feel you must trash someone else's work. Well, not curious enough to read your response.

So you are unintentionally devoid of thoughtfulness? There are a few adjectives for that.

"Your opinion piece isn't factual, isn't informational."?

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'd suggest you re-read it, but a little more slowly your next time around. All of my opinions are based on facts. If you'd like to rebut them, please feel free. If you'd rather throw more thoughtless blanket statements around, I suppose you're free to do that too, but I'd rather you just go away if that is the case.

 

[Orich]

So I'm guessing you're not a fan of a game that isn't even out yet...

I'm not a fan of the decisions and direction of the game that I've read about. I can't have an opinion about the game itself, since it doesn't exist yet.

When you see a trailer for a movie, do you not derive an opinion? If you heard that the next Batman would be played by Jerry Seinfeld, would you not form a prejudice about the film before it was released?

Or should I rebut with ... are you a fan of the game that isn't released yet?

 

[Viper09]

Never said you couldn't have an opinion. But just because you don't like "its direction" doesn't mean the game is going to turn out bad, as you seem to be claiming in your post. I, however, am waiting to form my opinion for when the game is released.

 

[Winter]

="Orich, post: 2355876, member: 166238"]I'm not a fan of the decisions and direction of the game that I've read about. I can't have an opinion about the game itself, since it doesn't exist yet./quote]

It does exist in beta, and several of the UHall regulars have and are playing it. You could have contacted them before posting about something you have no experience with.

And please, stop sending me childish and insulting PM's because I disagree with you.

 

[Orich]

Never said you couldn't have an opinion. But just because you don't like "its direction" doesn't mean the game is going to turn out bad, as you seem to be claiming in your post. I, however, am waiting to form my opinion for when the game is released.

I don't even insinuate the game will "turn out bad". I'm only stating the game will NOT turn out to be what many expect, which is something like a UO 2.0

Since there is a single player mode, it is more than reasonable to expect an excellent lore and store/quest mode.


And Winter, please I beg you, leave this thread. You have nothing to add, and have no idea what you're even responding to.

 

[Winter]

Once again, Orich... what does this have to do with UO?

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Once again, Orich... what does this have to do with UO?

It seems traditional to have a couple of posts a week/a post a couple of weeks (the exact interval varies) on U-Hall that talk about how SOTA is going to be awesome and kill UO.

Fortunately these posts usually are moved, though it usually takes awhile.

There was one just late last week as I recall. Someone found it necessary to post a SOTA's most-recent demonstration video and gush about it. And my favorite of all time was the thread where folks asserted, without links or evidence, that SOTA would be "open PvP" (whatever that was).

Frankly I'm glad to see some balance.

This thread likely, and justly, will be moved just like the others were. Because, ultimately, you are correct, and this is not a UO thread. But neither were the others.

-Galen's player

 

[Winter]

And we could talk about how ESO is going to finally kill off UO... before that is was just about every MMORPG that came out year after year.

However, this one in particular reminds me of the review that Johnny Wilson posted about Ultima Online in it's first year, without ever having played the game. JWilson gave it his "Coaster-Of-The-Year" award during its beta in 1997. Anytime someone posts their "opinion", that is a negative review, without having the actual in-game experience, it's just another hack piece of little value. IF Orich had actually played in the closed Beta of SOTA then I would have been very interested in his opinions.

 

[Thrakkar]

But if you're hoping that SotA is some UO-killer ... it has a multitude of focuses that are not conducive to the experience your romantic brains are hoping for, and certainly not good for a scalable MMO in general.

It was nowhere annouced that it would be a MMO or that will have a persistent world. IMHO you're stating the plain obvious.

The SOTA dev team will have to either A) build their own server software B) use a third party server software. Since they don't seem to have the resources for A, we can probably count on B. And duct-taping third party software to Unity3D is a precarious business.

Duct taping? You seem to have pretty much insight into their development process.
As far as I can seen on their homepage, Unity3D doesn't have a network client, so they have to build that too. Why this has to be duct taping is beyond me.

One of the amazing things about UO is a result of it's age and, for lack of a better term, bad coding. UO is unique in the fact that changes/patches are not retroactive across the items database.
For instance, in WoW ... back in the day, you could get items with elemental damage. A wand with Cold Spell Damage for instance. When they changed it to a flat Spell Damage, ALL ITEMS in the game were changed retroactively. That wand changed to spell damage for good.

Changing the weapons speeds, base damages, special moves, specials cost, etc. for the weapons revamp in Pub81 looked quite retroactive to me. Just to name one example...

If you're still skeptical about my opinions above, then let this detonate in your mind -- Imagine if World of Warcraft was created with the same tools as Doodle Jump, or Angry Birds. Now tell me how successful it would've been with those kinds of limitations.

Great analogy here. Not only that you're comparing 2D with 3D, WOWs graphics was outdated as soon as it was released. Low poly count, low res textures, poor effects. (In contrary to it's excellent and timeless style, but these credits go to the designers and artists).

Since there is a single player mode, it is more than reasonable to expect an excellent lore and store/quest mode.

That it will have "excellent" lore, story & quests has to be proven.
Just because there is a single player mode or that RG is creating it, doesn't make it "more than reasonable to expect" that.

 

[Viper09]

Great analogy here. Not only that you're comparing 2D with 3D, WOWs graphics was outdated as soon as it was released. Low poly count, low res textures, poor effects. (In contrary to it's excellent and timeless style, but these credits go to the designers and artists).

Bit off topic, but that comment made me wonder something. I always thought that most MMOs have such low quality graphics because it would be rather difficult to have fantastic graphics for an online game and still have a good frame rate. Are there any MMOs that actually have high quality graphics?

 

[Lord Nabin]

*Swats Fly*

*Moves hand left to right and says*

"These are not the forums you're looking for"

*heads back down the Forested path and continues on his wandering*

 

[Winter]

*Swats Fly*

*Moves had left to right and says*

"These are not the forums you're looking for"

*heads back down the Forested path and continues on his wandering*

LOL... thanks for the laughs!

Bit off topic, but that comment made me wonder something. I always thought that most MMOs have such low quality graphics because it would be rather difficult to have fantastic graphics for an online game and still have a good frame rate. Are there any MMOs that actually have high quality graphics?

Since we aren't talking about UO anyways...
If you have had a chance to play the ESO closed beta in the past few months, and most recently this past weekend, I've seen the graphics improve tremendously. I was simply awed by the weather effects, the rain pitter-patter onto the ground and puddling with lightning reflecting off the water. Everything else has left me wanting more after playing the desktop version of Elder Scrolls, the graphics quality is not quite as crisp. But still, ESO is the best I've seen so far. Maybe someone else has had a better experience.

 

[cazador]

I'm glad you continue to say it's not going to be UO 2.0 blah blah..because if you have listened and read from the moment it was announced Richard garriot himself stated multiple times.."This is NOT UO2" more of a spiritual successor.....carry on, you do seem a tad butt-hurt for some reason or another.


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[Orich]

It was nowhere annouced that it would be a MMO or that will have a persistent world. IMHO you're stating the plain obvious.

100% of the people I have personally talked to are expecting this to be like UO. They are preparing to leave UO for it. That is where this post came from.

Duct taping? You seem to have pretty much insight into their development process.
As far as I can seen on their homepage, Unity3D doesn't have a network client, so they have to build that too. Why this has to be duct taping is beyond me.

If your exposure into Unity3D development is glancing at their frontpage, I won't bother retorting.

Changing the weapons speeds, base damages, special moves, specials cost, etc. for the weapons revamp in Pub81 looked quite retroactive to me. Just to name one example...

...

Great analogy here. Not only that you're comparing 2D with 3D, WOWs graphics was outdated as soon as it was released. Low poly count, low res textures, poor effects. (In contrary to it's excellent and timeless style, but these credits go to the designers and artists).

You don't know what you're talking about. Even if I was making that comparison, it would be perfectly fine to do so. 2D and 3D from a development-tool perspective is a distinction without a difference. Everything uses OpenGL, or a competing library.

(Que the "NOT EVERYTHING" statement. Please stick to the context, not the semantics).

That it will have "excellent" lore, story & quests has to be proven.
Just because there is a single player mode or that RG is creating it, doesn't make it "more than reasonable to expect" that.

Judging by the 30 year line of games that had excellent story -- It is more than reasonable to expect he can do more of the same. He's proven it for a while now.

Decent attempt, but the sophistry really isn't entertaining enough.

 

[Orich]

I'm glad you continue to say it's not going to be UO 2.0 blah blah..because if you have listened and read from the moment it was announced Richard garriot himself stated multiple times.."This is NOT UO2" more of a spiritual successor.....carry on, you do seem a tad butt-hurt for some reason or another.


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Me?! Its the blind fanboys who are butthurt at my opinions, not me.

Reminds me of all the rage and idiocy that followed EA Louse's statements about SWTOR.

 

[cazador]

Me?! Its the blind fanboys who are butthurt at my opinions, not me.

Reminds me of all the rage and idiocy that followed EA Louse's statements about SWTOR.

No but it is semi amusing to say the least. I played ESO beta for about 4 hours with problems, glitches, loading screen errors, and not being able to join AT ALL for hours on end. And I still can't make a judgement on how that mechanics, pvp, pve, raids or whatever else they put into the game are going to be. Buttttt apparently you, who obviously have read very little and has little knowledge on the game based off what your saying, and hell hasn't even played the the first 2 beta tests..already has conformed an opinion...congrats! I applaud you!!!



...make way!! Game guru coming through!!!!!


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[Viquire]

IBTL

Just saying.

 

[Kirthag]

Now that this discussion is where it should be, by all means, please do discuss.
Please Follow forum rules - even if this isn't in U-Hall, this is still Stratics and I'm very positive the ban-stick reaches even this far down the forum boards.*tests reach* Yup, reaches this far... and further.

Now - commence DISCUSSION.

 

[Orich]

No but it is semi amusing to say the least. I played ESO beta for about 4 hours with problems, glitches, loading screen errors, and not being able to join AT ALL for hours on end. And I still can't make a judgement on how that mechanics, pvp, pve, raids or whatever else they put into the game are going to be. Buttttt apparently you, who obviously have read very little and has little knowledge on the game based off what your saying, and hell hasn't even played the the first 2 beta tests..already has conformed an opinion...congrats! I applaud you!!!

But I haven't commented on any of the mechanics of the game. I haven't even insinuated that I'm hinting that the game mechanics will be bad. Do you and Winter share the same brain, or is the inability to read and comprehend that pervasive in our little gaming community?

Seriously, read more slowly and thoroughly. Try to understand what the writer is saying before you attempt a rebuttal. If you are this allergic to context, you better not go anywhere near literature -- you may suffer anaphylactic shock if you touch a hardcover.

 

[Kirthag]

I said...
DISCUSSION

PLEASE comment on mechanics of the game, if you know so. THAT is DISCUSSION.

I'm not Petra... but I do like to keep a clean house just as she does.

No personal attacks or swaggering in here.

 

[Tazar]

While this is not the UO Forum - the same Rules of Conduct and Terms of Service do apply. Please keep that in mind. We never allow attacks on a development team but constructive criticism is welcome. We never allow "Board PVP" to over-run a thread, but we do allow debates. Keep it civil please.

 

[Spawn DF]

Bit off topic, but that comment made me wonder something. I always thought that most MMOs have such low quality graphics because it would be rather difficult to have fantastic graphics for an online game and still have a good frame rate. Are there any MMOs that actually have high quality graphics?

Final Fantasy XIV and have a look at DayZ (Beta).

 

[Tamais]

I have played both betas for the SOA. The development is very different. High donating players meet with the devs to help develop the game. They are very open to the players suggestions. Major differences: 1. You can choose how you interact with people. I can play like it is a single player game, play only with my friends, or an open world. 2. In housing you buy the land not the house. Right now the plots are limited and very expensive as you can only by them through the store. 3. At this time you can not use the up-down- right-left arrows and the mouse for movement.
It is way to early to judge the game. Will it take me from UO, nope. UO is still the better game for me.

 

[Captn Norrington]

I have been part of every public test session this game has had available, it's currently at pre-alpha stage, that means that 99% of other games wouldn't have even announced the game exists yet, and the game already plays very smoothly with very small amounts of glitches. I am very confident in the dev teams abilities since they've managed to create such a fantastic model of how the game is supposed to be nearly a year before the game is scheduled to be launched. Plus, there is the added bonus that Richard Garriot hand picked who he thinks are the best game developers in the country to work with him, they all seem very passionate about their work as well, it's not just a random job to them. I'm not going to quit UO when it comes out, I never plan on quitting UO for any reason, but I will definitely be spending a lot of time learning about and enjoying SotA.

 

[AirmidCecht]

I have been part of every public test session this game has had available, it's currently at pre-alpha stage, that means that 99% of other games wouldn't have even announced the game exists yet, and the game already plays very smoothly with very small amounts of glitches. I am very confident in the dev teams abilities since they've managed to create such a fantastic model of how the game is supposed to be nearly a year before the game is scheduled to be launched. Plus, there is the added bonus that Richard Garriot hand picked who he thinks are the best game developers in the country to work with him, they all seem very passionate about their work as well, it's not just a random job to them. I'm not going to quit UO when it comes out, I never plan on quitting UO for any reason, but I will definitely be spending a lot of time learning about and enjoying SotA.

Could not have said much of this better myself. I'll support all things Ultima, wherever that world takes me

 

[Orich]

I have been part of every public test session this game has had available, it's currently at pre-alpha stage, that means that 99% of other games wouldn't have even announced the game exists yet, and the game already plays very smoothly with very small amounts of glitches. I am very confident in the dev teams abilities since they've managed to create such a fantastic model of how the game is supposed to be nearly a year before the game is scheduled to be launched. Plus, there is the added bonus that Richard Garriot hand picked who he thinks are the best game developers in the country to work with him, they all seem very passionate about their work as well, it's not just a random job to them. I'm not going to quit UO when it comes out, I never plan on quitting UO for any reason, but I will definitely be spending a lot of time learning about and enjoying SotA.

Remember, they didn't have to build an engine, or a framework, or world making tools, etc. Unity3D has several frameworks that are literally "MMO-building Wizards" -- akin to how Dreamweaver is to building websites. They can literally drag & drop entities into the world and viola, it's built.

I am not judging them for their model, I think it's smart for them. Their target is the mobile platform, and there are few faster ways to get your product out to market than using one of these tools. My contention is that if they are going to focus on the mobile market, they aren't focusing on me. That's why I am pessimistic about the direction of the game, and that's why I think it will fall short ONLY for people expecting ANYTHING like an Ultima Online incarnation.

 

[cazador]

I don't know where your getting your info though really..it's completely PC..not mobile at all..he stated for mobile it would be a mini game.. For crafting/checking vendors etc..there isn't one aspect that's mobile at all currently it's 100% PC/Mac ATM

When he originally started the kick starter he said he wanted a solo player edition that was capable of mobile..anything that is online is just that persistent online mode on a PC..single player sees nothing online.


As for not liking the "instanced" feel..they don't have a solid # of people who can concurrently be in the same instance, but based just on community feedback I wouldn't see it as being less than 40-50..let me know next time u see 50 people on screen in UO next time and make sure to screenshot it..



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[Viper09]

I'm sure several years ago 50 people on a screen in UO wasn't an uncommon site

 

[Orich]

I don't know where your getting your info though really..it's completely PC..not mobile at all..he stated for mobile it would be a mini game.. For crafting/checking vendors etc..there isn't one aspect that's mobile at all currently it's 100% PC/Mac ATM

When he originally started the kick starter he said he wanted a solo player edition that was capable of mobile..anything that is online is just that persistent online mode on a PC..single player sees nothing online.


As for not liking the "instanced" feel..they don't have a solid # of people who can concurrently be in the same instance, but based just on community feedback I wouldn't see it as being less than 40-50..let me know next time u see 50 people on screen in UO next time and make sure to screenshot it..



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God, I don't even know where to begin with you.

He has said it multiple times. I decided to Google it for you, since you're keenly intent on arguing everything that I say, as though I'm simply making things up.
http://gameindustry.about.com/od/ga...f-the-Avatar-Selective-Multiplayer-Part-1.htm

Feel free to read the rest of the interview in its entirety ... perhaps you will understand both where my concerns come from, and just how valid they are.

And your argument is that because they don't have a player base, that they decided to architect an instanced selective multiplayer? And you wonder where I get my information from? They are doing instanced servers to reduce server load, because of their limited resources. And it's not about 40-50 people being on my draw screen, it's about being able to run anywhere and see everyone who is on my server.

When you're done being blinded by your own perceptions of the game, go watch this: in its entirety.

It's pretty plain to see that after all your ridicule of me not having played the game, I know quite a lot more about it than you.

 

[Viper09]

Interesting. Because when I was looking at the actual website the only mentions of platforms are for Windows/Mac/Linux, no mention of mobile platforms that I saw. I know he wants to get into the mobile market, but it simply looks like that client hasn't reached the stage for testing yet (assuming it's even being worked on), thus we simply have the Windows/Mac/Linux versions.

However, I sincerely doubt that the mobile version will look anything like the one in Beta right now. I suspect it will be something smaller like, as cazador said, a mini-game.

 

[Orich]

It's not really surprising they aren't developing the PC client and mobile client simultaneously -- their team isn't big enough. But also, they don't have to.

In Unity3D, it's almost as easy as clicking "Compile for Android". Not quite, but certainly closer to that than any other framework out there.

And once again, my contention has been with the directions and focuses that they have -- not necessarily with what they've done so far, since I have no experience with it. The fact that they were even considering having the instances hosted locally justifies every shred of doubt I've laid on the table.

Sorry, but don't shoot the messenger. I won't revel or hand out "I told you so"'s to Winter either ... well, maybe I will

 

[Viper09]

Are you assuming that if a mobile client is ever released for Shroud of the Avatar that will be the same type of content that the PC ones use? I have a hard time envisioning mobile devices being able to handle it...

 

[cazador]

I'm sure several years ago 50 people on a screen in UO wasn't an uncommon site

Many!! And when it did occur..it usually ended with the pretty "Connection Lost" box we all grew to love..or loathe.


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[cazador]

It's not really surprising they aren't developing the PC client and mobile client simultaneously -- their team isn't big enough. But also, they don't have to.

In Unity3D, it's almost as easy as clicking "Compile for Android". Not quite, but certainly closer to that than any other framework out there.

And once again, my contention has been with the directions and focuses that they have -- not necessarily with what they've done so far, since I have no experience with it. The fact that they were even considering having the instances hosted locally justifies every shred of doubt I've laid on the table.

Sorry, but don't shoot the messenger. I won't revel or hand out "I told you so"'s to Winter either ... well, maybe I will

The instances being handled locally isn't scrapped just modified..instead of having direct peer to peer it's peer to server to peer..to increase security and performance..again instances don't bother me for the simple fact I'll be in Open PVP mode..so wherever I go adventuring/gathering in Open PVP areas..I'll be able to kill people. It changes nothing from what I currently do..search spawns for a fight or stand at the gate?


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[Peekay]

How about we all just go play EVE Online instead?!

plsnoban

 

[cazador]

I tried..not into space games :/


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[Dermott of LS]

...

I'd like to point out that the Releases of SotA have been limited time Pre-Alpha tests of specific (and increasing) systems. Release 4, in March, is likely to be the initial Alpha of the game.

Secondly, as a LONG term UO player, there are two BIG issues that SotA delivers that UO has been unable to: 1. It's a modern game that at least fits on a modern screen without being hideously pixelated and distorted (or miniscule), and 2. The Open Management style of Portalarium should be observed and followed by the UO team.

Now back to playing Release 3!

 

[popps]

Both have pro's and con's ... but if you thought the exploiting, hacking, and scripting of UO is/was bad ... you will be in for a wild ride of both client-side and server-side hacks in this game.

Should that be the case, that would be for me a game breaker..... I have always hated the cheating, exploiting, hacking, duping and scripting in Ultima Online and I simply am not interested in seeing it again in another game that I might play.... It is frustrative for me and it kills my enjoyment of the game so, unless I can find a game where I can reasonably be assured that it will be cheats free or as close as possible as to being cheats free, I doubt very much that I could find some interest in playing it.....

 

[Reva]

To: Orich and everyone else participating in the discussion: thanks for helping me get a clearer view of SotA!

 

[Keira]

Sota releases h been getting better and better. PvP is at the end of this month. SotA will dominate.

 

[Dermott of LS]

...

I'd like to make a quick update note that (obviously) I did not have an extended release schedule so was proven rather incorrect on when the actual full "Alpha" begins. Points remain as previously stated. Also R7 was one of the best releases thus far, R6 was one of the worst IMO.

 

[Orich]

Sorry but , I told you so. These last releases have been such failure.

 

[Kirthag]

Really? I've actually been having more fun in the game than before. Especially with combat.

 

[Winker]

Sounds great