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Anyone up for an in-game protest about the state of PVP?

JC the Builder

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I have been thinking about this for a little while. To try and bring focus to Vice vs Virtue (and PVP in general), a meetup could be held in-game. This could be similar to the pre-UO:R shard protest that was held about 10 years ago.

Of all the questions asked last night at the meet and greet, only one had anything to do with PVP. Ironically, it was about flagging in VvV, I removed my character earlier in the day over that very issue. The developers said they aren't going to do anything about it.

There are more general issues with PVP that can be voiced too. Holy fist allowing 70 damage attacks. The curse bug. The fact no one is a murderer anymore.

If you would be interested in attending then please post a reply here. If about 20 people signup I'll get something together.
 

DJAd

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
VvV was a massive flop in my opinion. I only do the towns when I need to topup my points to replace my warhorse or crimson.

It should of been fighting over champs in dungeons.
 

Bleak

UO Software Engineer
VIP
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Where are we meeting? We love hearing player ideas on pvp and combat in general. Several of the items you have listed here have been addressed in Publish 92 which a preview will be on TC1 this week. As stated last night there are more enhancements we would like to make to VvV in the future and the PvP community has a big role to play in that. We are looking forward to seeing the community openly discuss what changes they want to be made and if there is consensus.
 

Ghaldoun

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
To me I'm an old Minax factioner of old days Leader of the Imperial guards of Minax (IGM) back in the day, with my friends from UZI. And seeing this VVV flop sorry but sitting on a box like a cat is not my idea of pvp. Some the rewards are cool but seriously they need to be revamped and add more and better. I been on several free shards that had factions, and honestly there faction reward system blew away this vvv stuff and I mean there rewards were cool as hell. To me factions is the best place to pvp in , I eman come on guarding a base of town sigils now that's a nice battle defend or go on the offensive. Cant do that in vvv but sit in a sandbox I call it like a cat, I mean seriously sitting on that thing just waiting and knowing u gonna get punced upon is kinda like hmmm this aint good. Bring FACTIONS back revamp it tweek it, have players send what was needed to make it better. Better reward system is a nice marketing tool, heck I was on free shard I got this club of zog deco for 40k silver see a cool item to get just an example. I mean I could say we could make each faction strong hold alil better then this time round. But Factiosn is far better then vvv hands down. I vote for factions to come back
 

JC the Builder

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I have setup bulletin boards at two locations on Atlantic for public comments.

pvp comment board yew.jpg

pvp comment board.jpg

The following comments have been gathered so far:

Nova said:
Mortal needs a cooldown on being applied! or much higher diminishing returns!
Shawn- said:
Everyone is VvV, not many reds. Need to figuroe out how to balance this. Mystic is OP (overpowered) for PVP
Atreyu said:
We need to go back to the Great Lords vs Dread Lords days. Good vs evil...
 

JC the Builder

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
More comments.
Bw-LLTS said:
I understand the itch to return. I returned about a month and a half ago after being gone for 5 years.

If you expect it to be 50 v 50 battles like at Castle Britain when you're trying to hold the sig for 24 hours...of constant fighting....well you are going to be bummed out(2001). But its still an enjoyable game...alot has changed - there is activity ---and the suits are insane now. Good fighting at Destard eariler- alot of guilds running champs....Yew Gate ...well it is what it is.

To be honest, one thing I've noticed is the level of play isn't as good. There isn't those VIP guild of guys....where you decided to make sure you have numbers or an escape plan. I'm rusty as hell and have never been elite - but there's no one I'm hesitant to flag.

I don't know much about VvV yet - except it is Chaos Vs Order from the earlier days - I miss factions greatly but as I said - this game is the type where you get what you want or put in to it - and for someone like me - who was in middle school when then game came out - now has a wife and career - I still love it for a couple nights a week for a few hours.
Carter730 said:
I hope I don't offend anyone here. But the reason that it seems like no one is that good anymore is because of the game mechanics and OP templates that anyone can play. So, when you get a bunch of people who can all have the same items and they can use these OP temps, it really negates any domination. Even the best players run into RNG or dumb templates etc. I'm not a dominate player, but like you said back in the day there was certain people you wouldn't flag because well it was a certainty you were going to die. UO decided to try to balance the scale so the poor/average pvper and the great pvper gap would shrink, if that makes sense?
DannyDan said:
I really agree with this statement. [in reference to Carter730's above post]
 
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Summoned

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
They really need to make it so you get kill points again anywhere you kill someone! So dumb you have to be in a town. Bad idea to start.

Also if your red and in VVV and your attacked by a blue the blue should flag "OJ" to everyone in VVV.
 

Shawn of Atlantic

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Everyone is VvV, not many reds. Need to figure out how to balance this. Mystic is OP (overpowered) for PVP
To add to my comment, are there any plans to moderate players who are obviously speed hacking/cheating? The cheating is a real turn off toward wanting to play in Felucca. I just started recently to really get into PVP and when players are obviously skipping tiles, casting while running or firing off 3 spells in a matter of 2 seconds, it makes me want to just leave and not play in that facet.

To expand on the not too many reds part, a limit on the amount of pardons one can consume over a period of time should be implemented. It's crazy how 1 scroll can wash away 200+ murders.

- I'd like to see poisoning be a bit more useful for PVP. Players can chug cure it very quick making the skill useless at times.
- Some type of reason to murder. Items? Loot?
- Anyone else think Mystic is a little OP for PVP? I

Thank you for listening to us.
 
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Summoned

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
@Mesanna back in the day the gm's went after the hackers! Hard bans everywhere. Players are posting videos of them cheating and nothing is done. Why pvp? Easy fix! Update the client every week. The hackers won't keep up with it. Then maybe it will be fair pvp again. Or at least ban the players that are posting cheats! Easy as that!
 

JC the Builder

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Additional comments.

Zagan said:
Bounties and head collection.
OutlaW said:
This VvV is a joke! We need to go back to the dead lords vs great lords days. There always needs to be a good vs evil, it's what makes this game fun. Reds vs blue, etc.
 

JC the Builder

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Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
More comments.

Opalala said:
VvV is worthless. Its just for a few to make tons of gold and ruin treasure hunters income
Oi Oi Oi said:
WE need to make all character transfers free, it would do a lot for this game. Beta tester here.
Carter730 said:
Well, although there are certain specific templates that are overpowered (mystic Mage is not one) It's the fact that you could have a character like an archer and run into a parry Mage and get owned, or you could run into another Mage temp with a parry Mage and not have enough fire power to kill them or be dominate. There used to be templates that could fight everyone and the players who were best played them best. Now if you play a single character there will always be a character to counter that out there. So, while you might face someone on your Mage or your archer and get absolutely dominated, if you switched characters you could dominate them. Basically, what UO did was make there more parity. No template is so overpowered it can't be beat. But, you need to be on the right template to fight an individual temp.
 

Shawn of Atlantic

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
So my guild member is fighting in yew and is blue to me. I see his life go down so I throw him a heal but wait! He was flagged to VvV and because I healed him, I turn orange. WTF is that about? Why would the devs code the game like this? I didn't want to get flagged into VvV and there was no warning or indication that he was flagged. This PvP system is real broken. @Mesanna and crew are way too quiet to the mass voices in game.
 

JC the Builder

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
So my guild member is fighting in yew and is blue to me. I see his life go down so I throw him a heal but wait! He was flagged to VvV and because I healed him, I turn orange. WTF is that about? Why would the devs code the game like this? I didn't want to get flagged into VvV and there was no warning or indication that he was flagged. This PvP system is real broken. @Mesanna and crew are way too quiet to the mass voices in game.
I attacked a VvV on a non-VvV and somehow flagged orange! And when I died I went into stat loss.

I attacked a non-VvV on a VvV and he couldn't give me a murder count.

I tried to resurrect a non-VvV blue and it said I could not perform beneficial acts on that player.

It is just insane what is going on but apparently this is all working as intended per the recent developer chat on Pacific.
Kyronix said:
We have some ideas on the table for enhancing VvV, but as far as flagging is concerned, We don't plan on changing it
 

Kyronix

UO Designer
VIP
Stratics Veteran
So my guild member is fighting in yew and is blue to me. I see his life go down so I throw him a heal but wait! He was flagged to VvV and because I healed him, I turn orange. WTF is that about? Why would the devs code the game like this? I didn't want to get flagged into VvV and there was no warning or indication that he was flagged. This PvP system is real broken. @Mesanna and crew are way too quiet to the mass voices in game.
If your guild mate had previously engaged a VvV player, he should have flagged orange as well. This was the solution to the "blue healer" problem that we dealt with prior to the release of VvV.

I attacked a VvV on a non-VvV and somehow flagged orange! And when I died I went into stat loss.

I attacked a non-VvV on a VvV and he couldn't give me a murder count.

I tried to resurrect a non-VvV blue and it said I could not perform beneficial acts on that player.

It is just insane what is going on but apparently this is all working as intended per the recent developer chat on Pacific.
The first item is working as intended. As I mentioned above, this is the solution to the "blue healer" problem. If you engage in VvV as a non-VvV player you suffer the same consequences so that everyone is on an even playing field and one group is getting stat-loss, while the other just insta-rezs and jumps back in the fight.

The 2nd and 3rd items you mention sound like there may be an issue there. Please submit a bug report ([email protected] or directly through the EC) with the details of your encounter. Thanks.
 

Shawn of Atlantic

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
If your guild mate had previously engaged a VvV player, he should have flagged orange as well. This was the solution to the "blue healer" problem that we dealt with prior to the release of VvV.



The first item is working as intended. As I mentioned above, this is the solution to the "blue healer" problem. If you engage in VvV as a non-VvV player you suffer the same consequences so that everyone is on an even playing field and one group is getting stat-loss, while the other just insta-rezs and jumps back in the fight.

The 2nd and 3rd items you mention sound like there may be an issue there. Please submit a bug report ([email protected] or directly through the EC) with the details of your encounter. Thanks.
My guild mate came up green to me, not orange. Maybe you should consider the non VvV player who flagged get the tag on their name until they die so guild members know whether they will flag or not if they assist their guild mate in any way.
 

Summoned

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
@Kyronix if a blue flags a red VVV...that blue should flag Orange to everyone in VVV. This is not happening and that's the reason there's no more reds. Please Adjust!
 

Shawn of Atlantic

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
@Kyronix if a blue flags a red VVV...that blue should flag Orange to everyone in VVV. This is not happening and that's the reason there's no more reds. Please Adjust!
That's ridiculous. If I attack a red, it should be for justice not for VvV. Man, this whole VvV thing is broken. May as well just get rid of red chars altogether.
 

Summoned

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
That's why there are no red chars now.

Also this game is to item based. It's for rich kids! Game over
 

DJ Diddles

Sage
Stratics Veteran
This thread is full of a lot of posts from people that I presume either don't actively PvP, or haven't in a very long time. The current VvV system is pretty awesome, and that's coming from someone who regularly faces off against much larger zergs.

The red vs blue PvP of old was massively outdated, and the only people I see in favor of making it relevant again are blues that miss sitting in guardzones and occasionally piling onto a red (PS: you can still do that). Don't even get me started on the myriad of problems that the faction system had.

The only factors of VvV that I think could use some improvement are:

1. The rewards. Silver is massively important for getting your artifacts, mounts, supernovas, and stat loss potions, but outside of that there might as well not be anything else for sale.

2. Stealthing is incredibly overpowered in active VvV towns. A great solution to this is to reduce the cost of manaspikes, as 1,000 silver for them is an absurd cost, as on average that's nearly 2.5 towns worth of silver.

3. The ability to tell which town is the current VvV town is only accessible via logging out and back in, or catching the one off chat message in guild chat that announces the town (and even then, I have noticed it does not announce every town.

As far as solutions to these problems:

I think for #1, the VvV silver shop should have more consumable/limited time items. Keep any rewards that are easily convertible to gold out of this shop (I'm well aware that you can buy supernova potions, and I think that's fine), unless they are VvV use-specific items.

For #2, I've already named the most obvious solution: reduce the silver cost of manaspikes, or make sigil carriers unable to hide/stealth while they are holding a sigil.

For #3, Kyronix has already stated that a feature to simply this process has been added to the backlog.
 

JC the Builder

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Here is another comment from a bulletin board:
Snugglefish said:
Get rid of the Royal Pardons it has destroyed the treasure hunters from selling forged pardons
So now this guy's treasure hunting experience has been diminished. Overall the pardons have basically destroyed the balance for murderers and has been mentioned several times. They should be removed in my opinion.


This thread is full of a lot of posts from people that I presume either don't actively PvP, or haven't in a very long time. The current VvV system is pretty awesome, and that's coming from someone who regularly faces off against much larger zergs.

The red vs blue PvP of old was massively outdated, and the only people I see in favor of making it relevant again are blues that miss sitting in guardzones and occasionally piling onto a red (PS: you can still do that). Don't even get me started on the myriad of problems that the faction system had.
Perhaps you and some people are having fun as things are with VvV. Some people are also having fun hitting people for 70 damage attacks with Holy Fist. The problem is a lot of people are not finding either of these things fun and are being driven away from PVP.

If you think red vs blue is not where UO is supposed to be, I don't know what else to say. That is basically the entire core of the game. How can you say something like that?
 

JC the Builder

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Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
The first item is working as intended. As I mentioned above, this is the solution to the "blue healer" problem. If you engage in VvV as a non-VvV player you suffer the same consequences so that everyone is on an even playing field and one group is getting stat-loss, while the other just insta-rezs and jumps back in the fight.
How is this better than Factions straight up not allowing you to heal them? I just don't see it. Instead of being completely disallowed you have been flagging orange left and right unintentionally.

This flagging system is hugely exploitable. From giving people murder counts to having people flag on you for free killing. I can stand next to a VvV as a blue, bless him, and attack him before he knows what hit him.
 

Kyronix

UO Designer
VIP
Stratics Veteran
How is this better than Factions straight up not allowing you to heal them? I just don't see it. Instead of being completely disallowed you have been flagging orange left and right unintentionally.

This flagging system is hugely exploitable. From giving people murder counts to having people flag on you for free killing. I can stand next to a VvV as a blue, bless him, and attack him before he knows what hit him.
Every player has the choice to either join VvV or not join VvV. If you opt not to do so, but insist on still being involved in a PvP battle - whether that be through direct combat engagement, healing/buffing, or merely just standing around taking advantage of Felucca push-through rules, you are now subject to the same consequences. The single biggest point of feedback when we set out on the VvV discussion nearly a year before we even started implementing was, "Fix the blue healers." As it stands now everyone who wishes to engage in PvP that has opted into VvV is on a level playing field. Stat loss effects those who wish to participate - one way or the other - evenly.

In your example scenario - if you are standing next to me in a non-consenual ruleset, I'm in VvV and you start casting on me, then attack me, the onus of situational awareness is on me to defend. Whether I respond in kind to the attack or get steam rolled relies on my innate skill - regardless of character stats, skills, and equipment.
 

leet

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
UNLEASHED
Every player has the choice to either join VvV or not join VvV. If you opt not to do so, but insist on still being involved in a PvP battle - whether that be through direct combat engagement, healing/buffing, or merely just standing around taking advantage of Felucca push-through rules, you are now subject to the same consequences. The single biggest point of feedback when we set out on the VvV discussion nearly a year before we even started implementing was, "Fix the blue healers." As it stands now everyone who wishes to engage in PvP that has opted into VvV is on a level playing field. Stat loss effects those who wish to participate - one way or the other - evenly.

In your example scenario - if you are standing next to me in a non-consenual ruleset, I'm in VvV and you start casting on me, then attack me, the onus of situational awareness is on me to defend. Whether I respond in kind to the attack or get steam rolled relies on my innate skill - regardless of character stats, skills, and equipment.
Well said sir, link is living in the UO from 9 years ago where running into a house flagged did not matter and getting a red guard whacked was the highlight of his pvp day.
 

Giggles

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@Kyronix if a blue flags a red VVV...that blue should flag Orange to everyone in VVV. This is not happening and that's the reason there's no more reds. Please Adjust!
The reason there are no more reds is... town buffs are only available in tram. Some of the buffs matter greatly in some pvp suits.

If you are not VvV and you attack a RED who is VvV you do not turn VvV. The system considers the fact that he is red first. Now if you attack a blue VvV you go VvV. If you heal or buff a blue/red VvV you also go VvV. Its not to hard to understand. The ONLY reason you are forced to go VvV is if you make the choice to participate in the fight, period. This removes the fight griefing that was ever abundant back in the day.
 

Giggles

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Well since you can participate in VvV without being a member......

You made the choice to flag VvV when you killed the VvV member. You will stay VvV until you die to a member of VvV. Just as you saw everyone orange, you were also orange to them and freely attackable. After your death everything went to normal, and your bars went back to the Red/Grey/Blue defaults. Its working as intended imo.
Am I missing something here?
 

Skalazar

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Your missing the point that VvV is not optional. The flagging system should *ONLY* come into play in VvV city battles. VvV is a piece of crap system that never should have made it past the concept stage it was so terrible (which many players spoke up about at the time and were ignored).
 

JC the Builder

Crazed Zealot
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Stratics Legend
Its working as intended imo.
I made another video because apparently it wasn't clear to some people on the Atlantic PVP forum how this can be exploited. If this is working as intended I guess I'll have fun taking advantage of it.

 

Kyronix

UO Designer
VIP
Stratics Veteran
I made another video because apparently it wasn't clear to some people on the Atlantic PVP forum how this can be exploited. If this is working as intended I guess I'll have fun taking advantage of it.

Did you get put into stat loss?
 

Stussywear

Seasoned Veteran
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
VVV is the dumbest system ive ever seen hit UO pvp. It's made me not want to pvp anymore, because its a lesser version of factions merged with order chaos.

VVV has made smaller pvp guilds, an impossible task to compete with large guilds, or alliances. I shouldnt have to join a large group to be able to play. Now, I log on a VVV and i get ganked by 10 people. I play on a non VVV and i cant attack anyone without going orange, and then having 10 people gank me. It's ridiculous.
 

Lord Gandalf

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Stratics Legend
I have been thinking about this for a little while. To try and bring focus to Vice vs Virtue (and PVP in general), a meetup could be held in-game. This could be similar to the pre-UO:R shard protest that was held about 10 years ago.

Of all the questions asked last night at the meet and greet, only one had anything to do with PVP. Ironically, it was about flagging in VvV, I removed my character earlier in the day over that very issue. The developers said they aren't going to do anything about it.

There are more general issues with PVP that can be voiced too. Holy fist allowing 70 damage attacks. The curse bug. The fact no one is a murderer anymore.

If you would be interested in attending then please post a reply here. If about 20 people signup I'll get something together.
The bigger problem in the current pvp system nowadays isnt pvp balance imop, every single temp "pretty much" got a counter temp in uo.

The bigger problem is the absence of a real pvp stage... Biggest proof is the amout of pvpers messing around yew gate running around like headless chicken to kill steal gank and rage on gen chat.

Someone pls give me a good reason to pvp today? The OP antique items introduced even restrict a high amount of the high end pvpers to assist to champ spawn as well (makes them loose massive durability and ruin there super uber jewelleries) so what do u get for pvping now? Some vvv points? Is that it?

Lets all thumbs up the devs coz 99.9% of the decent arties and loot are trammel exclusive!
 

Cutter

Visitor
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Stratics Legend
There has always been a central PVP area outside of VvV, Factions, or Chaos/Order.

It's been the yew gate for some years now but in the past it was Brit. At different times it was Bucs, or outside Moonglow, or before that the Crossroads west of Brit/north of Skara Mainland.

That's where people go for mindless PvP if you will, or just an area for "pvpers" to congregate if there is nothing fun going on.
 

Lord Gandalf

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There has always been a central PVP area outside of VvV, Factions, or Chaos/Order.

It's been the yew gate for some years now but in the past it was Brit. At different times it was Bucs, or outside Moonglow, or before that the Crossroads west of Brit/north of Skara Mainland.

That's where people go for mindless PvP if you will.
Yeah but whats the point? Get a few kills and gold insurance?
 

Cutter

Visitor
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Stratics Legend
Yeah but whats the point? Get a few kills and gold insurance?
No point really, but what's the point in any PVP. I look at the yew gate as FPS style almost. Granted I usually run around solo, but it's where the PVP'ers tend to be, and where you can find people to fight if there isn't a spawn battle going on.
 

Lord Gandalf

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Then they get bored, coz its not rewarding and switch to play another game like wow or league of legends where u have decent rewarding pvp system
 

Cutter

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Stratics Legend
I don't disagree that there should be more rewards/incentives to playing VvV. A lot of these also coincide with the state of PVP in general as is being discussed on many threads both here and elsewhere. (including your post)

Only that an area like what today is Yew gate is needed and has always been part of PVP.
 

Cutter

Visitor
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Stratics Legend
Frankly, this thread, along with JC's "where is the goal" thread should be merged w/ a couple of the PvP oriented threads on uHall into 1 big thread, and stickied @ the top over there.

I think few read this section.

Sadly, I also think many PVP'ers don't even come to Stratics and won't see these threads due to the reception some have been given over the years in general.
 
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