A request for reason: (please read)

[Dor of Sonoma]

I have noted in several places the gibbering outrage expressed towards a certain nationality, based on a brief "news" clip of a "celebration" that was most likely staged.

I want you all to pause and try to think a bit more clearly about that...and I ask you: When, for instance, the mass demonstrations took place against the World Trade Organization...did you feel that those demonstrators represented you? Or your entire nation? What do you suppose foreign viewers thought of us as a country, when scenes of the Seattle "demonstrations" were shown to them? Do you think those films depicted our sentiments accurately, and as a WHOLE society?

What I am attempting to point out to you all is this: A snippet of film, no matter how authentic, does NOT represent an entire peoples' attitudes and beliefs. It is just not possible. Aye, there are those whom will revel at news of a U.S. disaster...but they are individuals, and few. I believe it is far more important to remember that the majority of this world's population decry such utter disregard for human life, and grieve at such atrocities, even as you do.

Please do not turn your blind anger on those whom are just as innocent as today's victims. They are unwitting victims, too. Instead, please save your outrage for those whom were actively responsible and involved in fomenting this tragedy...whomever they may turn out to be.

Do not massacre the herd in an attempt to put down the rogue elements.

Just, please...exercise some thought and restraint, lest you become as rabid as those whom have precipitated your anger today.

Oh, and by the way...it was not just "Americans" whom died today. It was people. People from many places...people with many beliefs. I mourn the meaningless loss of life, even as I would if it had happened anywhere else.
Thank you.

~Dor

<font color=blue>The Lone Ranger</font color=blue>
<font color=purple>Guildmaster,</font color=purple><font color=red>Sonoma War Games</font color=red>

 

[Ereshkigal]

I have to agree. I saw that clip and immediately I felt hate for those people who were celebrating the death of so many people. Then I looked closer. The camera person was taking a close-up of a few people celebrating. If you looked closer there were more people standing around looking at the people celebrating like they were crazy.

This is a typical example of poor journalism. You will see this in alot of media coverage of riots and events they are trying to play up. Once I was walking down a street in Berlin, Germany and I saw a crowd of about 15 people yelling about something. I didn't want to get involved and at the time my german sucked so I just passed it by.

Several hours later Im watching the news and low and behold I see myself and the girl I was with walking down the street in the background of a huge riot. Now I was there and there was only 15 people, I counted, but when you saw it on TV, it looked like there were 100's. (turns out they were right wing extremeists)

 

[Dor of Sonoma]

Not only that...you have no idea WHAT, exactly, those people may have been celebrating.

Someone could have just given each of them a twenty-dollar bill...there is just no way of knowing.

It was a pure propoganda piece, that much is certain.

~Dor

<font color=blue>The Lone Ranger</font color=blue>
<font color=purple>Guildmaster,</font color=purple><font color=red>Sonoma War Games</font color=red>

 

[Bedouin_ArS]

Now let me ask you about the innocent lives lost already. Many of these "innocents" in these countries turn a blind eye to the terrorists that find refuse in their lands. I am sorry but these countries behavior reminds me too much of Viet Nam where children were strapped with bombs as living boobietraps. Such radical behavior filters down in their teachings. Eliminate one terrorist and 3000 more will line up to take their place.

Just some fyi that you wont find on the news. On his way out of the Pentagon where he works, my brother passed a naval officer lying down a tarp for triage. He approached the officer asking if he needed assistance. The officer responded asking him if he had any training. Having been an EMT for 10 years my brother responded affirmative. He found that the naval officer was an Admiral and was commanded to head one of three triage units. He just called moments ago saying he just returned to his home. His death toll for his triage unit was over 1500 bodybags. One out of three units. You do the math.

I am sorry for any innocents that might be harmed in retalliation but if they do not agree with the politics of their lands then they should take measures to change it. The innocents in this country are my main concern not those abroad. That is my feelings, take it or leave it.

 

[Jade of Sonoma]

Well said, Dor.

I have lived in various countries, and each has its good and bad people. The news media does embellish. Everyone suffers when the innocent in a nation are killed. I hope the world unites to find effective methods of blocking Terrorism. By taking no action, the problem will get worse.

This will be an 'underground' war for a long time.

<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Jade of Sonoma on 09/11/01 10:38 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[Sonoma Sam]

Bed-

That's exactly the logic these guys used to justify their attack on us. If you want to be a leader, it comes at a price. Tit for tat is schoolyard. Justice is called for, Not "I'll hurt your women and children worse than you hurt mine."

He who laughs last thinks slowest.

Linebacker, Misty, Lagunis, Samuel, Black Rose- Sonoma

 

[Bedouin_ArS]

I do not see it as schoolyard behavior. Unfortunately my reasoning comes from personal experiences with such religious fanatasism that is demonstrated by terrorists and those that harbor them. For one to look at the picture as a whole. As a whole, arabic peoples have two viewpoints, their leaders are blessed by above and we are evil. As with any arguements there are many sides. History is frought with them. The French/Indian War to us they were the bad guys. American Revolution the brits were the bad guys and the french our allies. But if you view history and warfare you will conclude that the most bloody, worst resulting battles are over religious beliefs. Millions die defending their "Gods" and their beliefs. Their fanatical behavior leads to these terroristic actions. Those that ally themselves with such people see that it is their duty in accordance with their beliefs. Doing so no longer makes them neutral. Lastly I am not saying to shoot first and ask questions later. Find those responsible, eliminate them and if their followers take arms in any form, then they become fair game. But be warned when the so called "innocents" rise up to take their place. It will be a no win situation no matter what happens. Innocents, true innocents, have and will die. The cycle continues this way and I see no end in sight.

 

[eXcalibur]

Dor I believe what you have said is nice and all, but to be honest, I have seen some of this hate first hand... There are ENTIRE groups of ppl whose religion require them to hate Americans. They belive we are children of the Devil, and given the chance they would kill. My father whom I followed his steps into the Army saw these things in their homeland... they would paint the US flag on the ground, spit and piss on it, even rub fiecies on it. While we should not single out all ahrab ppl, we must not be nieve....

 

[Kalnar]

First, let me say, I am in the U.S. Marines. I will go where my nation directs me, but Bed's comments remind me of another individual that was in the Marines durign VietNam.

GunnerySergeant Hathcock was a sniper. A very, very GOOD sniper. One time, while calibrating an M2 machinegun (.50 caliber), a teenage Vietnamese was spotted transporting several AK-47 assault rifles FOR vitenamese forces. The rifles were hung on the handlebars of a bicycle he was riding, and he was approximately about a mile away.

Gunny Hathcock, using the .50 cal he'd just finished calibrating, INTENTIONALLY shot the forward forks of the bicycle, disabling it, and knocking the boy to the ground. The boy then, upon getting up from the ground, grabbed up one of the AK-47's and was looking around for who might have made the shot. He was only suspecting it was someone very near. Gunny Hathcock only THEN put a round through the boy because he had proven he wasn't being "forced" into it by taking up arms.

I feel the same way. The terrorists are the forward forks of the bicycle. I'd be happy to shot them, and leave it at that, but should any others take up arms against me, I will remove them as well.

I search for the One.

 

[Ereshkigal]

OK...

I was active duty Army for 9 years as a Counter Intel Agent and Russian translator. Ive been in the Reserves for the last 4 years since I got out of active duty. I was deployed (active) to Saudi Arabia, Somalia and the Former Yugoslavia (for about 2 years on that one). I work in the US Embassys in Moscow, Zagreb, Sarajevo, Minsk and Kenshasa (consulate in Yaundi as well). Ive been to more countries than I can remember and it was one of my favorite pass-times to take a 3 or 4 day weekend to a country Ive never been to to just wander around.

In all the time Ive traveled in all the countries Ive been to, Ive never ran into an "entire society" or culture that was "anti-american". Most people went out of their way to be friendly to me JUST because I was a US citizen.

Sure, Ive been to some places that there was a large MINORITY of people that bore some sort of resent ment to the US, but Ive never been to a country where that has been the norm. Sometime things happen when there is large anti-amreican gatherings (because we have taken some action against the country) but that that was only temporary.

 

[eXcalibur]

obviously you have not been to palastine or Iran or Iraq... I am sure you have not if you have not seen this.. As a matter of fact if you had you would have been lucky to come back alive.... Americans are strongly cautioned to not go to these places... and I know if you were active army you sure as hell didn't go to these places because your CO's would have beaten it into your heads to stay away from there. There are societies that HATE americans because we help Israel which are their mortal enimies even since the time of the Bible. I am sure you have never gone to these places and identified yourself as American because if it was known that you were an american soldier you would have been drug behind a vehicle. I don't say that you should hate any group of ppl, as a matter of fact these ppl very few americans will ever meet because they will never come to America and Americans will be Strongly cautioned if not refused entry into these countries.