A comparison, UO problems then and now

[Captn Norrington]

There have been a lot of threads recently complaining about various things, like the taming publish, the phoenix etc.

A friend showed me this earlier and it was kind of cool looking back at the very beginning of UO. It's interesting how this was written 20 years ago, but talks about some of the same issues that still come up as Stratics threads sometimes. It also kind of shows that the good old days weren't quite as good as some people think they were.

Chaos in Britannia: Ultima Faces Protests

 

[Dol'Gorath]

Main notable difference... 65 thousand players. Was nice when the game had the large income to spend on big budget projects and updates and dev/staff members.

 

[arkiu]

Interesting read, Capt. But this is 2017 and in my opinion the game has gotten clunkier and sloppier and the player base is weak. May have had many problems back in the day but it was exciting. Too much effort is put into content that goes unused and has so little substance. No real risks like there used to be. In game store makes me gag. Everything is a grind a thon. Cheating is hard to squish. Economy is so saturated with gold and rares it makes hunting basics seem like pointless. Systems are too complicated. Shards are lifeless... Devs are... the devs. The artwork is... hold on i just threw up. And more than anything there is seems to be so little sense of community now...

Dont mean to uo bash but hey. **** was exciting back then. Only game ive ever played that really got the blood flowing - even if it was a bit buggy.

 

[Tyrath]

20 year of the same basic complaints and 20 years of hearing UO is dead and they are going to pull the plug. LOL the good ole days of UO were really not that good other than in memory. Now when Chess first came out there was a clunky game but after 800-900 years of updates they pretty much got it right, what a rush it was to beat your enemies sticks and rocks on the board scratched out in the dust on the floor. Something was really lost when it advanced to a carved board and pieces.

 

[Sauteed Onion]

I wish they would make a UO CC graphics game from scratch. Have it set in Modern Day, bards can wear Kiss Style face paint and play electric guitars and cars instead of horses. Would be cooler than you think. Cooler if you could bake pans of cinnamon rolls instead of cookies.

Also want to say no Sampire. I brought this up before, the "RP" stuff behind the sampire template is just so insano.

"Yes my name is Cabizar the Fish Slayer, I am 408 years old. I began my life as a fisherman off the docks of Skara Brae when my uncle came running towards me with a flaming arrow sticking out of his back. I was shoved into the sea and floated to the Serpent Pillars where I was teleported to a strange land. Stranger still was that fact I did not drown. The people of the settlement taught me all there was to know about wielding 2-handed swordsmanship weapons, and the art of Bushido, the beautiful skill of making my melee damage do more damage and giving me the ability to have confidence and be more evasive.

After a time of several years I decided to migrate through the handy dandy moongate there to the realm of Malas, I had a hard time deciding where to go, so I played Rock Paper Scissors with a young nondescript boy from the town of Zento. He won and giggled as young Zentoan school children do, and sent me to Umbra. As I kneeled to give the young one a hug, he farted and danced away into the distance. An ominous feeling came over me as I approached the moongate, some random female wondering healer shed a tear as I stepped in.

It was like my blood boiled as I emerged through the gate on the other side.. A horde of half naked men and women in bone armor eyed me up and down as I did. One of the less naked ones seemed to emerge from the crowd talking smack, he stunk of death, and also appeared to be adorned with multi-colored items. Some one told him to shut up and he was quiet for like 8 minutes. Anyhow the others around the gate approached me and I was powerless to stop them. I had no parrying skill yet, and they drug me up to an altar and set me on there. At first I thought I was tied down but I wasn't.. I was being drained of energy. A mighty Vampire emerged from the mass of weird looking natives, and he ... he... told me about different skill sets I might be interested in. He taught me necromancy and played bingo with me nightly for like 2 weeks.

The natives explained this was just how they said hello. Gripey, the multi-colored guy griped a lot because he was upset about changes to Necromancy during pvp patches or something that didn't make any sense to me. Melithor the vampire wept tears of blood when I told him I was interested in leaving. On my way to the moongate a female corpse animator shed a single tear. Not because I was in any way shape or form handsome to her, but because she wouldn't get the chance to mess with my dead body. She told me so. It was upsetting, so I turned around to talk to her, when all of a sudden Melithor told me to come back and I did. Where he bit me and I flipped out and chopped his vampire head of easily with my 1337 skills. Short story I became a vampire and suddenly knew I had to whirlwind attack the people in the settlement to defend myself. This worked out pretty good, their blood just kinda conveniently flew into my mouth and kept me sustained as I endured the whoopings. I left Gripey alone though. He was actually pretty cool to talk to when he wasn't cussing all the time.

About an hour after I did all that, and sorted through the loot I decided I felt bad for killing everybody. I really wanted to do something GOOD. Real good. So I stepped through the moongate again, and emerged in Luna. The city of Paladins. The city was boldly... ugly. I've not seen a more drabbly designed environment. Ever. But that my friends is whole other waste of time."

 

[Cymidei]

Back in 1998, no one thought an online game would lag?

Ultima Online maker sued | ZDNet

 

[Vershawn]

I feel like far more was forgiven back then because there were people at every bank and around every corner.
I know I could ignore alot of bugs and other nonsense when my ICQ list had 30 or 40 people on at all times playing.

 

[The Craftsman]

There have been a lot of threads recently complaining about various things, like the taming publish, the phoenix etc.

A friend showed me this earlier and it was kind of cool looking back at the very beginning of UO. It's interesting how this was written 20 years ago, but talks about some of the same issues that still come up as Stratics threads sometimes. It also kind of shows that the good old days weren't quite as good as some people think they were.

Chaos in Britannia: Ultima Faces Protests

I can see your point Captn, but this article was from 97 .... you'd expect bugs, teething problems etc etc especially in a pioneering game like UO was back then, and of course it was fresh off the gaming store shelves. What you dont expect is 20 years later that bugs and teething problems still as prolific as ever, and no lessons ever seem to be learned. Its unforgivable and smacks of decades of ambivalence, and occasionally incompetence by multiple Dev teams, and most of all EA.

 

[RhelHalcyon]

I can see your point Captn, but this article was from 97 .... you'd expect bugs, teething problems etc etc especially in a pioneering game like UO was back then, and of course it was fresh off the gaming store shelves. What you dont expect is 20 years later that bugs and teething problems still as prolific as ever, and no lessons ever seem to be learned. Its unforgivable and smacks of decades of ambivalence, and occasionally incompetence by multiple Dev teams, and most of all EA.

I think EA gets a bad rep for UO's issues when all they ever were for the game is a funding source. Sure maybe they could have thrown more money at UO over the years, but I'm sure they have justifications for not doing it. In a way, its surprising that EA has let UO live as long as it has. If anything, I think we should show them some gratitude for not killing the game 10 years ago.

A lot of the issues that have plagued UO is because it WAS a pioneer into the MMO scene. A lot of the coding is home grown, and like older mainstream coding languages, not many people learn home grown stuff - and why would a professional program take the time to learn this ancient language when they could perfect their knowledge of newer languages, and potentially get experiences and knowledge to advance their career?

The rotation of dev teams, in my opinion, is tantamount to the plague-like bugs UO experiences, and the reliving of historical issues. That coupled with the out-of-date coding language and it's possible inability to adapt and utilize current changes in hardware infrastructure is what makes developing and working on UO a nightmare. I don't envy the dev's job.

Putting aside those issues you have an extremely embedded community clinging onto the game of old and you have to please them. Advances to change the game for the better, on all fronts, are met with criticism from one group or another and often times something amazing will become a PR and balancing nightmare - ex. the taming update and it's related outcry from the PvP community.

Personally I feel EA is sitting on a gold mine. If they were to take the core mechanics of UO and create an updated, modern ARPGMMO I think it would gain a lot of interest.

 

[MalagAste]

I think EA gets a bad rep for UO's issues when all they ever were for the game is a funding source. Sure maybe they could have thrown more money at UO over the years, but I'm sure they have justifications for not doing it. In a way, its surprising that EA has let UO live as long as it has. If anything, I think we should show them some gratitude for not killing the game 10 years ago.

A lot of the issues that have plagued UO is because it WAS a pioneer into the MMO scene. A lot of the coding is home grown, and like older mainstream coding languages, not many people learn home grown stuff - and why would a professional program take the time to learn this ancient language when they could perfect their knowledge of newer languages, and potentially get experiences and knowledge to advance their career?

The rotation of dev teams, in my opinion, is tantamount to the plague-like bugs UO experiences, and the reliving of historical issues. That coupled with the out-of-date coding language and it's possible inability to adapt and utilize current changes in hardware infrastructure is what makes developing and working on UO a nightmare. I don't envy the dev's job.

Putting aside those issues you have an extremely embedded community clinging onto the game of old and you have to please them. Advances to change the game for the better, on all fronts, are met with criticism from one group or another and often times something amazing will become a PR and balancing nightmare - ex. the taming update and it's related outcry from the PvP community.

Personally I feel EA is sitting on a gold mine. If they were to take the core mechanics of UO and create an updated, modern ARPGMMO I think it would gain a lot of interest.

I agree with much of what you've said however EA's Mismanagement of UO from the get go has been something that has held it back from being a shining star.

They have MOVED the HQ for UO at least 3 or 4 times... sometimes 1/2 to all the way across country... uprooting people from homes and whatnot and they then lose many good employee's... They did this at the WORST possible times for UO in the past... often just before or just after a massive publish or update or plan.... resulting in unfinished crap being released or left in game because no one else knew what the heck was going on with it or they didn't want to go that direction anymore leaving many players extremely irritated and frustrated...

They push the DEVs to release crap WAY before it's even ready ..... High Seas was like this resulting in folk hating it and becoming disgusted with the game... Same with KR which died because it was thrown at the players not even 1/2 finished. How do they expect anyone to accept a whole new look to the game if it can't even be played properly??? This kind of crap has lead to folk rejecting the EC before it even had much of a chance either... Then it was gutted and revamped and broken over and over... This is the kind of thing that really irks players and makes them just want to quit.

Couple that with the lack of customer support more often than not and you see why the game is losing customers all the time..... and if you add in folks frustration in the fact that the ToS are NOT enforced... and well... it's a wonder anyone stays at all.

I suppose many of us who are left are either in here to make a buck ..... which there are FAR too many of those people around... Here because we can't find anything else to play that we enjoy... we don't want to start all over learning a new game... nostalgia and the hope that some miracle will happen and suddenly UO will become popular again... we swore to ourselves that we'd be here when they turn out the lights... and we are too stubborn to give up... or some other reason... but seriously most folk have left because well.... it got old.

The new content all being a massive grind makes me just want to close the doors and give up... but I think I fall in the I swore I'd be here when they turned out the lights group... and I'm still here.

I won't praise EA... That'll never happen.... a company that refuses to wise up and take money should fold IMO... I've NEVER seen a company so determined to alienate it's customers and make it so freaking hard to give them money before... it's like they don't want to be in business...

And I did write the CEO's of EA and tell them what I thought and how I felt... Spent quite a while emailing back and forth with their community liason... I forget his name think it was Keith or Kevin or something like that... at any rate he seemed somewhat sympathetic... but then shortly after that EA saw fit to dump UO on Broadsword... good or bad dunno... but the head of Broadsword makes no effort to care in the slightest about UO... he's been asked many a time about the game and his only response has been that questions or whatever regarding UO are referred to Bonnie. Period. He has no part in UO at all. So while you are wanting to pat their back keep that in mind.

Calling EA to talk about problems at the Origin store buying things for UO will get you the response that UO doesn't exist anymore... Talking to Origin about wanting more than one of something they totally can't fathom why anyone would need more than one expansion for UO... no concept of having more than one account... And you have 1 main account that ought to cover it the idea that you'd need another is totally foreign to them.

 

[Kirthag]

I think the biggest issue I dealt with (a lot) in my earliest of UO days were server reverts. Damned frustrating to work so hard at skill gains, mining ores, smelting and storing only to get booted then the server revert back 8 hours, or 12 hours, or whole days!
Dem was very frustrating times!

 

[callum_fitzhugh]

Interesting. I was playing a lot of Quake online at the time and tried to get hold of a physical copy of UO as it looked so magical. Somehow I couldn't get a copy and so forgot about UO until I stumbled across a boxed version in 2000 or so.

An interesting fact is the early version of UO with [obviously] non-consensual pvp [Felucca only] the game designers hadn't thought [apparently] that players would even bother to try and kill each other. The assumption was that all the players would work together to do stuff, which is why there was no control over the pvp element to the game. Heh. I read this some time ago somewhere.

 

[Kirthag]

Interesting. I was playing a lot of Quake online at the time and tried to get hold of a physical copy of UO as it looked so magical. Somehow I couldn't get a copy and so forgot about UO until I stumbled across a boxed version in 2000 or so.

An interesting fact is the early version of UO with [obviously] non-consensual pvp [Felucca only] the game designers hadn't thought [apparently] that players would even bother to try and kill each other. The assumption was that all the players would work together to do stuff, which is why there was no control over the pvp element to the game. Heh. I read this some time ago somewhere.

They had accounted for pvp, it was all part of the beta, however it was all pretty much communicated on the onset that this brave, new world meant combat.
Something to keep in mind, RG is a member of the SCA (or was at that time) and just about all the menfolk could think about was combat.

What they didn't account for was the amount of ppl who hated non-consensual pvp, and in particular murdering.

PvP and murdering are two different things... and it was the murdering, repetitive PKing, and the new Player Killer Class (non official) which came about. The original game was not meant for outright player killing - meaning the slaying of another player for no reason other than to slay the other player. This was brought to a head when a PKer killed RG who forgot to turn on his invulnerability during a public event. THAT was a surprise... and stuff of legend.

 

[MalagAste]

They had accounted for pvp, it was all part of the beta, however it was all pretty much communicated on the onset that this brave, new world meant combat.
Something to keep in mind, RG is a member of the SCA (or was at that time) and just about all the menfolk could think about was combat.

What they didn't account for was the amount of ppl who hated non-consensual pvp, and in particular murdering.

PvP and murdering are two different things... and it was the murdering, repetitive PKing, and the new Player Killer Class (non official) which came about. The original game was not meant for outright player killing - meaning the slaying of another player for no reason other than to slay the other player. This was brought to a head when a PKer killed RG who forgot to turn on his invulnerability during a public event. THAT was a surprise... and stuff of legend.

The "Surprise" was in the fact that people didn't care about being virtuous and following the virtuous path of the original games... they figured people would police themselves and be good.... but with ZERO incentive to behave themselves why would they? When they could do no work at all but kill less skilled easy targets and take all they have so easily what reason was there to do any work at all when taking it from others was so easy? And without any serious negative consequences to being a complete arse why stop?

 

[Uriah Heep]

he's been asked many a time about the game and his only response has been that questions or whatever regarding UO are referred to Bonnie.

 

[Kirthag]

The "Surprise" was in the fact that people didn't care about being virtuous and following the virtuous path of the original games... they figured people would police themselves and be good.... but with ZERO incentive to behave themselves why would they? When they could do no work at all but kill less skilled easy targets and take all they have so easily what reason was there to do any work at all when taking it from others was so easy? And without any serious negative consequences to being a complete arse why stop?

hehe...

You have to remember, RG (and others who created the Ultima series) are involved IRL in the SCA (at least at that time) where chivalry abounds and honor is of the utmost importance. Some of us in the SCA tend to think the rest of the world is that way, too. Harsh lessons in gamer mentality were served during early UO. I will admit to having run amok myself with a red for a while, but I quickly got tired of it and let him go. Chivalry won out for me - but not so much for others.

Not everyone is like that... and the incentives for certain behavior were intended to come from the community and peers at large. Originally, it was not intended for the game devs to play babysitter, police, and psychiatrist to the players. If I remember correctly, there was an entire guild of kids (ages 10 to 16) who were the best PKers for the longest time... their moms and dads paying for their accounts not knowing or understanding what those kids were up to. There was a huge hullaballoo when some of those kids were found out. I also remember a rather early HOC where "shard governance" was discussed - kinda similar to what I mention in the other thread over yon (see you replied there as well). Never came to be though...

 

[RhelHalcyon]

Going "red" (Murderer) in the original game wasn't always an easy decision though. There were no "pardons" or the "easy way out" like there is now. Which is a major point of amusement for me concerning current PvPers. I'm willing to bet a lot of PvPers now were not PvPers then and would never have decided to go PvP.

If anything the original UO was like a real life scenario. People did go around killing random people for stuff, but there were groups of good people who would fight them as well. I was in a group like that and we would often times go out to combat the murderers and dreadlords.

 

[RhelHalcyon]

I agree with much of what you've said however EA's Mismanagement of UO from the get go has been something that has held it back from being a shining star.

They have MOVED the HQ for UO at least 3 or 4 times... sometimes 1/2 to all the way across country... uprooting people from homes and whatnot and they then lose many good employee's... They did this at the WORST possible times for UO in the past... often just before or just after a massive publish or update or plan.... resulting in unfinished crap being released or left in game because no one else knew what the heck was going on with it or they didn't want to go that direction anymore leaving many players extremely irritated and frustrated...

They push the DEVs to release crap WAY before it's even ready ..... High Seas was like this resulting in folk hating it and becoming disgusted with the game... Same with KR which died because it was thrown at the players not even 1/2 finished. How do they expect anyone to accept a whole new look to the game if it can't even be played properly??? This kind of crap has lead to folk rejecting the EC before it even had much of a chance either... Then it was gutted and revamped and broken over and over... This is the kind of thing that really irks players and makes them just want to quit.

Couple that with the lack of customer support more often than not and you see why the game is losing customers all the time..... and if you add in folks frustration in the fact that the ToS are NOT enforced... and well... it's a wonder anyone stays at all.

I suppose many of us who are left are either in here to make a buck ..... which there are FAR too many of those people around... Here because we can't find anything else to play that we enjoy... we don't want to start all over learning a new game... nostalgia and the hope that some miracle will happen and suddenly UO will become popular again... we swore to ourselves that we'd be here when they turn out the lights... and we are too stubborn to give up... or some other reason... but seriously most folk have left because well.... it got old.

The new content all being a massive grind makes me just want to close the doors and give up... but I think I fall in the I swore I'd be here when they turned out the lights group... and I'm still here.

I won't praise EA... That'll never happen.... a company that refuses to wise up and take money should fold IMO... I've NEVER seen a company so determined to alienate it's customers and make it so freaking hard to give them money before... it's like they don't want to be in business...

And I did write the CEO's of EA and tell them what I thought and how I felt... Spent quite a while emailing back and forth with their community liason... I forget his name think it was Keith or Kevin or something like that... at any rate he seemed somewhat sympathetic... but then shortly after that EA saw fit to dump UO on Broadsword... good or bad dunno... but the head of Broadsword makes no effort to care in the slightest about UO... he's been asked many a time about the game and his only response has been that questions or whatever regarding UO are referred to Bonnie. Period. He has no part in UO at all. So while you are wanting to pat their back keep that in mind.

Calling EA to talk about problems at the Origin store buying things for UO will get you the response that UO doesn't exist anymore... Talking to Origin about wanting more than one of something they totally can't fathom why anyone would need more than one expansion for UO... no concept of having more than one account... And you have 1 main account that ought to cover it the idea that you'd need another is totally foreign to them.

I agree and disagree with some of what you say. I think the issue is that EA makes plenty of money off of other games that they don't really need the money off of revamping/recreating UO. It's sad, as a UO player, to admit but I feel this is the truth. EA has huge triple 'A' titles coming out that UO will just never compete with on the global scale - at least not in its current state. Just my thoughts though. :/

 

[Captn Norrington]

People did go around killing random people for stuff, but there were groups of good people who would fight them as well.

I remember those groups too, they were pretty fun. Although sometimes the group coming to "save" someone from a murderer was actually the same person on a different character, or some of their friends...

They would kill people on their reds and loot everyone, then show up on their "good" characters and kill their own reds, in an effort to build a reputation as good people while still being able to rob everyone they came across. It worked pretty well too, people would always be so grateful to them and even give them more stuff as a reward sometimes, without realizing it was the same group who had just robbed them.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

You used to be able to steal from players on production shards. Insurance killed an entire profession...la

 

[RhelHalcyon]

I remember those groups too, they were pretty fun. Although sometimes the group coming to "save" someone from a murderer was actually the same person on a different character, or some of their friends...

They would kill people on their reds and loot everyone, then show up on their "good" characters and kill their own reds, in an effort to build a reputation as good people while still being able to rob everyone they came across. It worked pretty well too, people would always be so grateful to them and even give them more stuff as a reward sometimes, without realizing it was the same group who had just robbed them.

Like a giant social experiment. hahaha My group would usually use test center to get our kicks as reds. On our home server we were usually fighting them. As far as I know, none of the reds we fought were characters of my friends - but who knows for sure! We did "befriend" some reds. It was more the honor of a good fight. You killed or were killed and after it was said and done you ressed each other and went your separate ways until next time. Although there was always one or two who would mess up the system.

It definitely wasn't the "LoL" style trash talking crap being praised as PvP these days.

 

[callum_fitzhugh]

Like a giant social experiment. hahaha My group would usually use test center to get our kicks as reds. On our home server we were usually fighting them. As far as I know, none of the reds we fought were characters of my friends - but who knows for sure! We did "befriend" some reds. It was more the honor of a good fight. You killed or were killed and after it was said and done you ressed each other and went your separate ways until next time. Although there was always one or two who would mess up the system.

It definitely wasn't the "LoL" style trash talking crap being praised as PvP these days.

It was fun roaming the lands with non-consensual pvp. It gave the game a true edge. It meant something. And when there was a very simple combat system, before chivalry and all that crap, it was fun.

Best piece of advice I was given in pvp lessons - "Run towards a Mage and away from a warrior" Fun times.

 

[MalagAste]

It was fun roaming the lands with non-consensual pvp. It gave the game a true edge. It meant something. And when there was a very simple combat system, before chivalry and all that crap, it was fun.

Best piece of advice I was given in pvp lessons - "Run towards a Mage and away from a warrior" Fun times.

I don't find that "fun"... Working 2 hours gathering stuff to have some putz come take it away in .2 seconds and kill me NOT fun... Having them take everything I have on my body armor, gold, hard earned whatever lumber/ore/loot.... bandages, everything... NOT fun... bad enough mobs steal my bandages all the time... don't need other players doing it just to be @$& Holes... or anything else... I don't find it fun to die to someone 10x more powerful or to be ganked 10 vs 1 ... I don't either find it "fun" to gank someone 10 vs 1... boring... and there isn't much "skill" in that. Sure some people like being the 1 and fighting against the odds whatever but I don't...

I enjoyed RPPvP .... where the fight had some "meaning"... a battle over a road, the attempt in arresting a murderer... defending the Kingdom... etc... that was "fun" and you didn't get looted ..... you died you picked up your stuff and waited out your timer ... or left... No harm no foul do it again another day. Enjoy the fun aspects without the smack talking... without the loss of hard earned things... just nice fun.

Does not appeal to me to do all the work at a spawn to have a couple of hacking scum who have been ghost camming using scripts to watch and wait for you to spawn the boss come zipping in and kill you take all the loot and leave. Not fun... not worth my time or bother.

 

[The Craftsman]

I don't find that "fun"... Working 2 hours gathering stuff to have some putz come take it away in .2 seconds and kill me NOT fun... Having them take everything I have on my body armor, gold, hard earned whatever lumber/ore/loot.... bandages, everything... NOT fun... bad enough mobs steal my bandages all the time... don't need other players doing it just to be @$& Holes... or anything else... I don't find it fun to die to someone 10x more powerful or to be ganked 10 vs 1 ... I don't either find it "fun" to gank someone 10 vs 1... boring... and there isn't much "skill" in that. Sure some people like being the 1 and fighting against the odds whatever but I don't...

Not being inflammatory here, but to be perfectly honest, you joined and paid to play a full loot, non consensual PvP game. What did you expect? When you join a game of that nature you really do (should) know what youre going to get, and if you dont find non consensual full loot PvP fun, why pay for the privilege. Serious question.

 

[Sauteed Onion]

Well, there is the acceptance of that @The Craftsman but over the years people ignored the TOS to brazen levels of what I perceive as insanity. This became a destructive aspect to the already harsh perspective of losing it all to random dry looter as random dry looter usually resorted to hacking after x amount of time, and griefing. Granted the hacking was not explicit and all encompassing but many did and still do it from my understanding, for griefing purposes no less. At some point though people do need to accept that is just the unknoawble nature of online games. A tinge of what may very well be too random. Like biting into a meat lovers pizza and getting a mouthful of coconut shavings hidden away in the chese and crust.

On the flip side I lost more stuff in IDOCS and just random self stupidness than I have ever lost to another player but it always seems to sting when another person does it to you, when they move faster, exhibit strange multi dextrous features that would baffle most zentoan school children. I am kinda losing my original train of thought. I might have eggs in the morning.

 

[Flagg]

Main notable difference... 65 thousand players. Was nice when the game had the large income to spend on big budget projects and updates and dev/staff members.

It was nice when UO and Ultima franchise as a whole had that large budget to spend. Less nice what they did with it. Three failed attempts at client to replace CC with. Cancelled sequel.Another cancelled sequel.
Three failed clients, two canned games. So much money just thrown away. So many rocks thrown at windows of opportunity. Most of it is all on EA, not on UO devs though. Various dev teams certainly aren't free from sin though; It remains completely crazy to me that anyone would release an EC where characters, pets look the way they do.

 

[ShriNayne]

I'm not sure they had any hope of ever making a new client that CC users would be happy with. It's not so much a case of hating the new clients that were presented, it's more a case of hating ANY new client. I used to be in that group too, but after playing other games I found that my needs and expectations regarding the client had changed. For a lot of people who have played for 15 years or more they just don't want anything new or different or with a steep learning curve, they just want what is familiar and set up just how they like it. Some UO players have not played any other online games. Considering how much money veterans have put into this game their feelings do need some consideration. I really don't think there will ever be any more attempts at new clients now.

 

[Flagg]

I'm not sure they had any hope of ever making a new client that CC users would be happy with. It's not so much a case of hating the new clients that were presented, it's more a case of hating ANY new client. I used to be in that group too, but after playing other games I found that my needs and expectations regarding the client had changed. For a lot of people who have played for 15 years or more they just don't want anything new or different or with a steep learning curve, they just want what is familiar and set up just how they like it. Some UO players have not played any other online games. Considering how much money veterans have put into this game their feelings do need some consideration. I really don't think there will ever be any more attempts at new clients now.

Mmmm, I'd not say so! I feel I'd be fairly easy to please! In terms of graphics, all I've ever wanted to see were updates and improvements, not this utterly misguided flirting with 3d models. They, along with zoom bring nothing essential to the game. There is a really good gif file out there, showcasing fan made vision of what an " encanced character models done right" looks, I see if I can find it for ya!

When reading/talking about this stuff, I often end up thinking of WoW and how they did the character graphics update. Ofc, Blizzard deals with pool of resources entirely different in scale, but that's not the point here: When Blizzard began talking about character graphics update, they just..talked about it for ages without doing a thing. All talk for years. Reason? Despite feeling it was necessary for their game, they admitted to being utterly terrified to change anything character-related. They realized people have very..close relationship with their in-game characters and how they look and move. They realized any change or update is essentially them being elephants in house of glass. They realized it needs to be done with huge wealth of caution,taste, preparation and planning. They realized they need to be very loyal to the original material.

This is what UO devs never realized. EC characters and pets look entirely unlike characters and pets people are used to in CC. EC doesn't provide updated or enhanced versions as much as changed versions. This alone is all the baggage EC needed to fall flat in eyes of many. Imo they had a wrong and worst of all,careless approach to it. That alone was enough baggage to ensure EC falls flat in eyes of many. That's all the pages it takes or needs in my books. We needn't even touch how terrifying the EC's UI is for " new players" or returning vets. Bells and whistles it provides are very useful, plentiful, non-intuitive and in part nonsensical. It is much more intimidating than CC.

I agree there prolly will never be another try at making a new client.

 

[Flagg]

Found it! Basically, this is all I'd ever ask when it comes to " enhanced character graphics" for UO. No huge, needless sacrifices on altar of 3d models or zoom function or whatnot. Don't CHANGE but instead, touch up what you have.

This is taken from Andrea's UO page.
Andrea's Ultima Online page > General > UO Art

IMHO the artist here has a far better vision and approach to tweaking UO than any of the devs who worked on 3rd dawn, KR, SA character graphics.

I'm confident this would have been the right way to do it.

 

[ShriNayne]

You hit the nail on the head there Flagg, the problem was that they just didn't have a clue what people wanted or even what people would accept... instead of making what THEY wanted, in secret, then springing it on everyone half-made, they could have just talked to their own customers! But unfortunately talking to customers hasn't really been their strong suit. And yes I agree when you zoom in on the EC it looks horrific, but since I usually play very zoomed out it's all good!

 

[Flagg]

You hit the nail on the head there Flagg, the problem was that they just didn't have a clue what people wanted or even what people would accept... instead of making what THEY wanted, in secret, then springing it on everyone half-made, they could have just talked to their own customers! But unfortunately talking to customers hasn't really been their strong suit. And yes I agree when you zoom in on the EC it looks horrific, but since I usually play very zoomed out it's all good!

Aye.. Needless sacrifices for 3d models or zoom function, misguided attempts to to change rather than enhance is very understandable mistake to make in early 00's with 3rd dawn. With KR, it was a bit like " oh you..actually tried that again eh. whoa, well, ok" but to see them take this road with SA client for THIRD TIME...come on!;p Would have been nice to see graphics designers display some measure of faith to CC. Like..could it be there is a reason it mass murders all these 10+ years younger failed attempts at new clients.. What the hell is there in 3d models for 2d bird's eye game that feels so essential for them.


Heh, found an ancient UO 3rd Dawn review all the way from April of 2001!

" The perceptive ones among you will have noticed that I have been calling the graphics 'different' and not 'better'. The reason for this should be obvious: they're not better, they're just 3D... sort of. Third Dawn retains the overhead perspective of UO, but has replaced the flat sprites of most of the animals, characters and monsters with little 3D figures. Oddly though, many of the objects in the game (and a few of the animals) are still the old sprites, making for a sort of graphical mishmash."

Review might be older than modern day high schoolers and it might be talking of client that got killed to make room for the previous client that got killed. But this pretty much holds true today still.

 

[ShriNayne]

I've always found the CC graphics charming, but I do prefer a more modern UI, the biggest problem with the CC I have now is that weird clunky jerking the screen does... I do wonder though if they had cleaned up the CC graphics and added a better UI, more Pinco style, would the majority of CC users have accepted it?

 

[Sauteed Onion]

In terms of user interface, I like that I can put my spell and skill buttons anywhere on screen I want.
The hot bar system is not end all be all to me.

 

[Flagg]

At least I totally would have! I'd love to have all those cool EC UI functions in CC.

That said, I feel EC's UI comes with a very unpleasant payload of sorts. It looks utterly insane in eyes of new players or returning vets. Too much immediately underneath the hood. CC is better at giving what little sophistication it has to players when they are ready for it and need it, no sooner.

 

[Flagg]

In terms of user interface, I like that I can put my spell and skill buttons anywhere on screen I want.
The hot bar system is not end all be all to me.

It's interesting...
EC's hotbar system is similar to typical "vanilla" version most of the more modern MMOs provide. Nifty action bars at bottom, turn em vertical if you like, all that! However, once playerbase of typical MMO begins to develop add ons and updates to their favorite MMO and tweak it's UI further, the end results are often very flexible solutions where you can determine placement, size and shape of your spells and abilities more freely, touch detached from action bars. ie, in terms of action bars, a " fully evolved&modded" modern MMO in some ways is bit closer to CC than it is to EC. Tis mindblowing. ;p

 

[Sauteed Onion]

I think the only thing I actually enjoyed MORE than cc in ec was the map. Maybe some features of the containers. But that is all. It is still brazenly ugly.

 

[petemage]

At least I totally would have! I'd love to have all those cool EC UI functions in CC.

That said, I feel EC's UI comes with a very unpleasant payload of sorts. It looks utterly insane in eyes of new players or returning vets. Too much immediately underneath the hood. CC is better at giving what little sophistication it has to players when they are ready for it and need it, no sooner.

It's an utter mess when you first boot it. I have honestly no idea how BS can present such a disgrace right at the very first moment of the game. But I guess doing a completely fresh install is hardly part of their testing routine :/

The old UI (before Pinco reworked it) was not such a mess. But then, that also was a different Dev team under a different producer.

http://oi63.***********/1y8lro.jpg

 

[petemage]

 

[petemage]

I've always found the CC graphics charming, but I do prefer a more modern UI, the biggest problem with the CC I have now is that weird clunky jerking the screen does... I do wonder though if they had cleaned up the CC graphics and added a better UI, more Pinco style, would the majority of CC users have accepted it?

The hardest part when I tried the CC was that everything was so tiny without a zoom feature. My eyes just had to squint so much it was no fun. And of course all the mouse-work I had to do by myself. Graphics looked nice but at the end of the day I wanted to play the game not only look at my house

As for your question, I doubt CC users would accept it, as "CC users" naturally also includes like 50 different opinions what's good and what's bad in terms of UI.

 

[Dol'Gorath]

It was nice when UO and Ultima franchise as a whole had that large budget to spend. Less nice what they did with it. Three failed attempts at client to replace CC with. Cancelled sequel.Another cancelled sequel.
Three failed clients, two canned games. So much money just thrown away. So many rocks thrown at windows of opportunity. Most of it is all on EA, not on UO devs though. Various dev teams certainly aren't free from sin though; It remains completely crazy to me that anyone would release an EC where characters, pets look the way they do.

UO was a pioneer and because of that a lot of stupid beginner mistakes were made. Later MMO's didn't throw money down the toilet like that on wasted client updates no one really wanted. Hell, even Everquest uses the same client, but the flexibility of being 3D from the get go is that it could be improved slightly over time as opposed to UO's CC being stuck in 1997.
The game could be so much more now had funds been allocated properly but now its basically down to a skeleton crew cranking out 2-3 small patches a year, patches that in the old days would have been considered "minor feature updates" and not a full scale patch.