1.25 ss Composite Bow - Is It Really Worth it?

[Val-Tur]

I have been toying with the idea of 210 sta, 60 ssi, 55 lmc on my PVE archer who uses composite bows. Right now I swing 1.5s with 187 sta, 40 ssi, 40 lmc. I also have 135 mana & 125 hp. This is not about the perfect suit. It will be *near* perfect. So I am giving realistic numbers on what I see I can actually achieve. I can get 210 sta, 60 ssi, 55 lmc. But my mana will drop to 90 & my hp will be around 110.

Is it really worth gaining the 1.25 ss giving up all that mana & hp? If I can live with 1.5 ss, then I can actually up my hp & mana a good bit. I am looking for honest opinions and not a blind yes max everything opinion.

 

[Chrille]

55 ssi will take you to 1,25 with 210 stamina

 

[Pawain]

Yes more shots/min exceed the small damage loss. You can copy to TC and adjust stats to see what your base damage would change to.

 

[Val-Tur]

Yes more shots/min exceed the small damage loss. You can copy to TC and adjust stats to see what your base damage would change to.

This is not about changing base damage per hit (skills, str, slayer, etc). This is about the tradeoff between more mana (for specials) & hp (for survival) vs more regular hits. BTW, this is not a spawn template. This is pretty much an all purpose archer.

Scenario #1: 135 mana (raise lmc to 55), swing @ 1.5s. AI's per full mana bar = 135 / (30*0.45) = 10. In this setup, I keep more mana & hp.

Scenario #2: 90 mana (raise lmc to 55), swing @ 1.25s. AI's per full mana bar = 90 / (0.45*30) = 6.7 or 6 AI's per full mana bar. In this setup, I lose significant mana & hp as well as 4 AI's worth of initial damage.

After emptying the first manabar with AI's, the initial mana advantage is over. The difference is now extra swings. In a 30 s fight (assuming no misses), 1.5 ss gives 20 hits, 1.25 ss gives 24. On a non-peerless type mob - scenario #1 is better, on a peerless type mob - scenario #2 might edge out in the long run. If this were a spawn template, then 1.25ss would clearly be the winner due to the advantage of more swings doing AE damage.

 

[Pawain]

My archers stay away from damage, they just deal it out, so HP is not something I care about.

 

[Merlin]

Why settle for one suit/setup if you can have both?

If you can afford it, run two different suits with those setups. In EC, the suit change macro is relatively easy to setup and add to your bar. From there, test both cases in different situations and you will start to see some themes emerge. Go with whichever works best - or keep both suits in the event you feel they both have advantages in as each scenario changes.

If you had to pick one, I would lean toward making the change to 211 stam and 55 SSI to swing faster. Do you mind sharing what other skills you're running?

 

[Val-Tur]

Why settle for one suit/setup if you can have both?

If you can afford it, run two different suits with those setups. In EC, the suit change macro is relatively easy to setup and add to your bar. From there, test both cases in different situations and you will start to see some themes emerge. Go with whichever works best - or keep both suits in the event you feel they both have advantages in as each scenario changes.

If you had to pick one, I would lean toward making the change to 211 stam and 55 SSI to swing faster. Do you mind sharing what other skills you're running?

I really do not want to get into the whole skillset discussion. This was just about trading mana + hp for maxing ss. In the old days, we actually broke things down a bit (like I did above) instead simplifying to maxing the primary stat. Sometimes the obvious is not the answer. Those days are gone though.

As to different suits, nice idea - it's time consuming and costly enough for one suit right now. Maybe in the future.

 

[chester rockwell]

The time cost of dying sucks. I'd prolly go with the hp.

 

[Scott1234]

Try 1.25 swing in exodus dungeon vs 1.5.

you don’t mention whether your bows have hit mana leech , hit life leech, or what form you’re in. Those can easily make up for loss of stats on gear. Likewise, think about how much SSI is on the weapon (reduction in leech) vs. elsewhere.

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

Scenario #1: 135 mana (raise lmc to 55), swing @ 1.5s. AI's per full mana bar = 135 / (30*0.45) = 10. In this setup, I keep more mana & hp.

Scenario #2: 90 mana (raise lmc to 55), swing @ 1.25s. AI's per full mana bar = 90 / (0.45*30) = 6.7 or 6 AI's per full mana bar. In this setup, I lose significant mana & hp as well as 4 AI's worth of initial damage.

After emptying the first manabar with AI's, the initial mana advantage is over. The difference is now extra swings. In a 30 s fight (assuming no misses), 1.5 ss gives 20 hits, 1.25 ss gives 24.

The Mana only lasts that long if you wait 3 seconds between Specials (AI). If you attempt to chain specials within 3 seconds of each other, it doubles the Mana cost. Scenario #1 would get 5 chained specials in a row within 7.5 seconds, while Scenario #2 would get 3 within 3.75 seconds. A difference of 2 Special Moves.
Going from 20 hits in 30 seconds, to 24, is a 20% damage increase. That's big.

I'd go with faster swings. Archers shouldn't be getting hit much in the first place (so HP isn't as needed), and as you already pointed out the big Mana pool only matters for a few seconds into the fight anyways, while the faster swings provide a long-term benefit. The higher DPS of faster swings also means you'll be restoring more Mana over time via Mana Leech as well. Plus, in many cases, the best defense is a good offense.

Scenario #1 only offers a benefit if you can quickly kill the enemy within a single mana dump, then have enough time between respawns to fully regen it back.

 

[Keven2002]

I'd be in the swing speed camp. Especially since you can be at 1.25 (55 SSI + 210 stam) without adding anything to your bow which means you can be at 50% mana leech on any composite bow you have. In a longer fight, you will eventually dump your mana by chaining AI but with 50% ML it will take longer to deplete and once depleted you will be swinging faster (regular hit) to build back that mana quicker (using the 50% ML).

To the point of others, archers really are designed for ranged attacks which to me is heavy on the offense and less on the defense so HP would be a second priority to damage.

 

[Tabin]

Definitely 1.25ss and rely on HML. Larger mana pool does little in sustained PVE fights.
If someone is tanking for you, consider wraith form if you are struggling with mana.

 

[Val-Tur]

One thing you all are not taking into account regarding hp that we should have learned from Deceit event. This development team is very fond of mobs that cast spells 2-3 faster than a player, they chain cast a lot, & the spells do not suddenly stop when you run out of range. Also the casting range on these event mobs is larger than typical mobs. So hp actually does play a larger factor than before imo. The only thing left in this game to look forward to basically are these events. That or farming the same old legacy content where the mobs are not so *super*. So I keep that in mind as I try to revamp my builds. I hate glass cannons.

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

One thing you all are not taking into account regarding hp that we should have learned from Deceit event. This development team is very fond of mobs that cast spells 2-3 faster than a player, they chain cast a lot, & the spells do not suddenly stop when you run out of range. Also the casting range on these event mobs is larger than typical mobs. So hp actually does play a larger factor than before imo. The only thing left in this game to look forward to basically are these events. That or farming the same old legacy content where the mobs are not so *super*. So I keep that in mind as I try to revamp my builds. I hate glass cannons.

The main spellcasters in the Treasures of Deceit event were Liches. Liches in particular have always been infamous for their spell combo dumping capability. Not all caster mobs are as capable as Liches at rapid casting, in fact very few are (only Rune Beetles come even close to it). Just compare the spellcasting AI of the Savage Shamans or Blood Eles in the Guide Champ Spawn vs that of Liches. Not even close. Not every event is going to utilize Liches.

Hell, i'd say they should change the Magery/Necro FC Cap to 3-4 while in Lich Form for players, since the +13 MR from it is obsolete with the 30 MR cap and how easily attainable that is with current Legendary Artifact gear.

 

[Keven2002]

One thing you all are not taking into account regarding hp that we should have learned from Deceit event. This development team is very fond of mobs that cast spells 2-3 faster than a player, they chain cast a lot, & the spells do not suddenly stop when you run out of range. Also the casting range on these event mobs is larger than typical mobs. So hp actually does play a larger factor than before imo. The only thing left in this game to look forward to basically are these events. That or farming the same old legacy content where the mobs are not so *super*. So I keep that in mind as I try to revamp my builds. I hate glass cannons.

Not to open a can of worms (as this was discussed at nausea on the official forums by a certain unnamed player) but I'd say that what your saying above falls into the "use the most effective strategy available for the most effective results".

If you plan on trying to solo the ToD spawn or play it like a sampire then you are correct, HP will be an issue (probably should use a sampire if you want to play like one).

If you just want a different template to play (ie archer) then you really don't have to worry about an entire spawn of liches casting on you because you are behind some sort of tank usually. In the event you run through the dungeon you shouldn't be rubberbanding around the screen (you should be selecting your target), you can easily take a lich out in 2 shots before they can even combo.

 

[Val-Tur]

This development team has made all caster mobs at events cast faster & harder. They also insist on mixing the mobs types with both caster & melee. This is here to stay. Lich lords for example may be some of the worst, but even 3 or so normal savages @ the Ilshenar spawn casting on you at the same time can very problematic with low hp.

Who cares about single legacy mobs that can be easily dominated in a couple of shots? The only thing worth doing from now on is going to be events with mobs all around and over you. You won't have pets all handy dandy there to draw aggro & protect you unless you bring your own or a friend. The tamers got all p1ssed off and played their sampires at deceit event. Long ago this game devolved into a group of players in one place playing solo *with* each other.

 

[Keven2002]

This development team has made all caster mobs at events cast faster & harder. They also insist on mixing the mobs types with both caster & melee. This is here to stay. Lich lords for example may be some of the worst, but even 3 or so normal savages @ the Ilshenar spawn casting on you at the same time can very problematic with low hp.

Who cares about single legacy mobs that can be easily dominated in a couple of shots? The only thing worth doing from now on is going to be events with mobs all around and over you. You won't have pets all handy dandy there to draw aggro & protect you unless you bring your own or a friend. The tamers got all p1ssed off and played their sampires at deceit event. Long ago this game devolved into a group of players in one place playing solo *with* each other.

Mmm ok so at this point I think you have your answer that you should go SSI over HP. You didn't say in your OP that you are strictly looking to do spawns... if you are looking to do spawns then I'd suggest using a sampire and leaving the archer at home (if you are having the issues you state above).

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

This development team has made all caster mobs at events cast faster & harder. They also insist on mixing the mobs types with both caster & melee. This is here to stay. Lich lords for example may be some of the worst, but even 3 or so normal savages @ the Ilshenar spawn casting on you at the same time can very problematic with low hp.

Who cares about single legacy mobs that can be easily dominated in a couple of shots? The only thing worth doing from now on is going to be events with mobs all around and over you. You won't have pets all handy dandy there to draw aggro & protect you unless you bring your own or a friend. The tamers got all p1ssed off and played their sampires at deceit event. Long ago this game devolved into a group of players in one place playing solo *with* each other.

Those Savage Shamans can be 2 shot. Even with 3 of them on you, it's not a problem if you kill them fast enough. Offense is the best defense in that case. Do you have 140+ DEX for 4 second self heals with bandages? Most casters (other than Liches) can't out damage 4 second bandy heals with just their spells. I'm thinking the problem isn't your Max HP, it's your HP recovery. If your build is the typical ABC Archer, then you should have access to 4 second bandy heals, Confidence, and Close Wounds. Killing an Honored foe restores Health as well. If you're absolutely sure your next shot will kill, you can even use Honorable Execution for a SSI Bonus and some healing.

Tamers were actually pretty decent at the Deceit event. On Napa, i used my Mage/Tamer with 3,650 Luck+Potion of Glorious Fortune to farm the Lich Lord room for lots of drops. I had his 120 Chiv+AI Triton down below, while i stayed on the level with the ledge, that way all the spawn down below would target my Triton, and that upper level has serious LoS issues, nothing (other than Paragons) can target you on that top level unless they're directly next to you. I had my Chiv/Macer sitting in the same room, just to handle any Paragons that'd spawn.
Most Sampires were either worthless against Paragons in Deceit, or had to re-tool their build to have Anat+Healing to deal with them.

 

[Val-Tur]

I shelved my sampire for deceit. I could not be bothered to redo his skills. I had a chiv/dexxer with 4sec bandages, anatomy, resist, etc with fire weapons already skilled up. Not the highest dps, but I came out with everything I wanted + extras & a huge amount of money that I am now using to retool 4 characters with Atlantic gear. It was nice to play that character again. He could solo any of the paragons with a few tactical retreats - especially during paragon *power hour* when they were noticeably stronger. Gotta adapt I suppose.

 

[Val-Tur]

If anyone is still interested, I finally completed my build after a lot of new equipment & moving things around. Some highlights: Mace & shield glasses for the HLD. 60 SSI (10 SSI on epps, 10 SSI on bracelet, the rest on bow). 5 piece studded armor for 55 lmc, 10 total MR, 19 total SR. The screenshots are with weapon equipped:

 

[Keven2002]

Thanks for sharing @Val-Tur. One suggestion that might also help is to use some refinements to boost resist (and lower DCI) since you are at 5 DCI anyway. You could bump all resists to 75 (80 eneergy).

I just checked out my archer's suit and it needs work... I use the tinker legs/feudal grips though so I'm limited in the pieces I can use / stats. Ideally I'd like more strength but it's tough to max it out given 2 armor slots are being taken up with legs/gloves.

 

[Kylie Kinslayer]

Why settle for one suit/setup if you can have both?

If you can afford it, run two different suits with those setups. In EC, the suit change macro is relatively easy to setup and add to your bar.

Thankfully they now have a quick suit change macro in CC now as well. I ran across it the other day. Very easy to set up and it has a short timer on it from switching back.

 

[Val-Tur]

Thanks for sharing @Val-Tur. One suggestion that might also help is to use some refinements to boost resist (and lower DCI) since you are at 5 DCI anyway. You could bump all resists to 75 (80 eneergy).

I just checked out my archer's suit and it needs work... I use the tinker legs/feudal grips though so I'm limited in the pieces I can use / stats. Ideally I'd like more strength but it's tough to max it out given 2 armor slots are being taken up with legs/gloves.

I might just do that. PVE archer is the only one of my characters I might do that with. DCI is useless anyway on archer.