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Winter

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Well... Flagg's whole arguments sound good, but are all based on guesses with no way to verify the "If you make it Free, They will come!" model work. There just isn't room for new player housing, and players won't stay without that. Flagg is just ignoring the arguments how this is going to make a profit, where those new customers are coming from, and where they will go to play.

Just too many IF's that can't be answered by anything but guesses.
 

claudia-fjp

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Despite what you think, most shards are NOT empty! They are populated by houses, but not by people. There are people who are paying monthly subscription fees to maintain their houses, but they are not actively playing the game. How is the F2P going to get these people playing once again? I don't see F2P getting current players excited.
I beg to differ. Where once you couldn't find an open 18x18 spot in Tram, Fel, or Malas now Malas is 80%+ empty on many shards and there are open keep and even castle spots on some. That's a huge amount of people and houses gone.

F2P isn't aimed at the die hards that are left who will pay for their multiple accounts until the game shuts down anyway. It's to give the same incentive the free shards give to those who already left. Current players WOULD be excited to have an influx of more people to play with instead of the slow steady drain.
 

Flagg

Sage
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Stratics Legend
Well... Flagg's whole arguments sound good, but are all based on guesses with no way to verify the "If you make it Free, They will come!" model work. There just isn't room for new player housing, and players won't stay without that. Flagg is just ignoring the arguments how this is going to make a profit, where those new customers are coming from, and where they will go to play.

Just too many IF's that can't be answered by anything but guesses.
Nobody in this thread can " verify" anything, for or against. Masses and their whims are unpredictable.

It is not exactly some wild, experimental model. Publisher and players of PC-based MMos in general favor it over sub model. Several games launched as sub based have switched to F2P. Many of those have enjoyed varying measure of success. This is a trend that has been on-going for several years now. This much is proven, well documented and undeniable.

All servers but ATL currently have LOADS of room for new player houses. Like I said earlier, housing in and of itself would make a perfect paywall for non-subs in F2P model. To a degree where itmight not need anything else. " Want to place a house? pay up!" or alternatively, " Want to place a house larger and cooler than that wretched 8x8? pay up!"
 

Flagg

Sage
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Just too many IF's that can't be answered by anything but guesses.
This is what they initially said to Richard Garriot when he once pitched idea of an MMo to EA. What they said to Kolumbus when he spoke of route to India..etc etc. Sometimes leap to unknown rewards you.
...Not that F2P was a new, revolutionary idea or some " unknown". Dozens and dozens of very well liked Pc games use and proper using that model.
 

Flagg

Sage
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Stratics Legend
Yeah. Pick a server at random. Get a placement tool. Head to random location on one of the housing facets. Start running. I bet you won't need 5 mins to place a house. Hell, it didn't take me much longer in ATL last time I tried 2 yrs back.
 

kelmo

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Dozens and dozens of very well liked Pc games use and proper using that model.

Name dozens and dozens of "well liked" free games... I am gonna expect at least 48 games. Every one of these games must include player housing and pvp.
 

kelmo

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Yeah. Pick a server at random. Get a placement tool. Head to random location on one of the housing facets. Start running. I bet you won't need 5 mins to place a house. Hell, it didn't take me much longer in ATL last time I tried 2 yrs back.

I do not have enough gold on any random shards...
 

kelmo

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Just saying. Do you have all that kinda gold to go place houses on shards ya never play on? Ya only get two houses per account now.
 

Flagg

Sage
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Stratics Legend
Name dozens and dozens of "well liked" free games... I am gonna expect at least 48 games. Every one of these games must include player housing and pvp.

You have very difficult and tedious approach to topics you disagree. You just keep asking for " proof" while bringing nothing to conversation except attempts to undermine and question what I say. You yourself bring nothing contradicting to table. You don't even make it clear what and why is it you'd disagree with. Arguments of mine you question aren't met with counterpoints, just repeated " prove it!"

I'll humor you for a time tho. here goes. List of F2P games from top of my head. Majority of these are MMos since that is most relevant genre for purposes of our convo.

SWTOR
Lotro
DDO
Neverwinter
Secret World
Star Trek Online
Hearthstone
Rift
Aion
Everquest I
EQ II
Magic:The Gathering Online
DOTA,League of legens and pretty much the entire multiplayer online battle arena genre as a whole.
Majority of recent MMORPGs.
World of tanks
Path of the Exile


You asked me to do research. Try it yourself, too. F2P as a business model overtook Pc gaming like 3-4 years back. Net is full of success stories and reports about it.
 
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S.P.A

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I think folks sometimes over-complicate this debate. :)

The challenge Kelmo sets out seems to me to be fourfold:

1. How do we retain all the existing subscription revenue
2. How do we gain extra players
3. How do we gain extra revenue
4. How does it make life more fun for existing players

The answer to 1 is really trivial. Someone has already commented on this thread that the shards are proof positive that folks are willing to pay monthly fees to own and keep a house, even if they don't play regularly. Many players pay for multiple accounts to maintain multiple houses on the same or different shards. So... in the F2P world you can't own a house unless you pay a monthly subscription (or maybe a lifetime subscription as they have in, for example, Star Trek Online or Neverwinter Online!).

The answer to 2 seems pretty simple as well. Allow F2P players to do everything except own a house. No skill total limits, no mining limits, nothing; just you can't own a house. Anyone, everyone, who gets addicted to UO ends up wanting a house. The current 14 day limit on trial accounts is not long enough to get people addicted. The current limitations on trial characters are a turn-off. You need a decent period of time, e.g. 6 months, to become truly addicted to UO.

The answer to 3 also seems pretty simple. The best F2P models avoid "pay to win" because that generates jealousy; what they offer is "pay or time" where you can pay to receive benefits that you could also achieve in-game if you committed sufficient time and effort; you could classify this as paying for being impatient, but that's really not fair. A fairer comparison is this; if you were unemployed you could stay at home all day, play the game and acquire everything through hard labour; but if you are working 10 hours a day in a well paid job, you can't play the game as much but you can use your substantial income to purchase things that you don't have time to play the game to acquire. So either way, the rich and the poor end up with the same loot, just one invests time and the other invests cash. Trivial example; sell 120 skill and +25 stat PowerScrolls for cash.

There's an extra level of sophistication you can build into this "pay for time" model that generates money for both the gaming company and the "time-rich/cash-poor" players. In Star Trek Online, for example, there's various stuff from Cryptic that you can only buy for Dilithium, which comes from mining but each character has a cap of mining 8,000 per day. It takes time to mine 8,000; the "time-poor/cash-rich" players can't invest sufficient time. But they can buy Zen from Cryptic, at $50 for 5,000 Zen, and then use the Zen to buy Dilithium off the other players via the Dilithium Exchange. Poor players can therefore invest time mining, just as scripters do in UO, and sell their Dilithium to rich players thereby earning Zen, which is used for the best ships and stuff in the Cryptic store so in our terms say PowerScrolls and all the products in the Origin store.

The answer to 4 comes from the above. For example, existing players can get access to stuff they currently pancake about not finding easily, e.g. PowersSrolls for money, probably no different to the way they use the sites that shall not be named today, but the money is being recycled into Broadsword/EA instead of China Inc. Another example, there would be more F2P players around in game looking for high-end gear from vendors run by existing subscribers since only subscribers would have houses to place vendors in. Another example, there'd be more activity on the shards as the F2P players would be populating places that maybe a little dead right now. More players = more community = more opportunity for interaction.

Very little of the above even takes much programming. The trial accounts already have the no-housing limitation. The introduction of the vendor search already gives us a shared marketplace for subscribers to sell to F2P players. The introduction of a currency to simulate Zen and Dilithium is something to develop, but we already have Silver which is now unused since Factions were killed, and maybe we just steal another consumable (e.g. Power Crystals because they happen to look just like Dilithium!), and the work on the Origin store so Silver can be used to pay for stuff instead of dollars.

Call me mad, I'm sure you all will, but to me it really isn't that complicated. F2P would be a fail if housing was free, but really, no-one's that silly I hope.
 

kelmo

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Dot_Warner

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Make the 14 day free trial last indefinitely, keep the current restrictions. See what happens.

Since they are already used by spammers, scammers and general ne'er do wells due to the ToS not being enforced...it really couldn't hurt UO.

Give it a try and see what happens. See how many free players switch to a paid account.
 
T

Tazar

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It seems the OP's original intent has been made clear:

1.) To discuss Moderator Actions (which is against the ROC/TOS of Stratics).
2.) To Reopen a Locked Thread (which is also against the ROC/TOS of Stratics).

As such - this one is also locked.
 
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