shocking development?

[Theo_GL]

Too often what would seem to be a nice idea does not get thought through enough and subsequently fails in execution. IMO there was nothing wrong with the idea of giving players a way to boost the resist caps on thier suits, even at the expense of a little defense chance. Idea = ok (even if not everyone will use it). However what we got from that idea was a completely fubar system to utilize it. Quite frankly I think they know it, and did it on purpose. They want the system to be as cumbersome as possible with the aim of keeping us logging in trying to collect 474347744687 refinement pieces so that we can eventually complete a full suit with +5 mods on each piece. The same thing goes for not making so much of the new content in the last 6 months unstackable. I call BS on the idea that the refinement components could not be made stackable if they had gone with a simpler system... so why make them complicated and unstackable? I think it is blatantly to create a need for more storage space, which they will sell you in the form of boosters or additional accounts.

Agreed - given the lower refinements aren't worth crap - they could have had 4 types of refinements - all invulnerable level and they stack and it would take you 5 invul refinements to do 1 armor piece. Done. 4 stackables to collect and no special versions for each type of armor.

This whole 'lets make 8 zillion versions so people will trade' is complete BS and a thinly veiled attempt to get people to want more storage.

 

[Theo_GL]

I think the next publish we get, if there are things in it that people do not like, you need to go test it yourself on Test Center. Then post your feedback in the special forum for Test Center, post it here, and use the feedback form on the uo.com website to send in your feedback that says you actually TESTED IT. Don't be an "armchair quarterback" and just sit here and criticize the devs' work. Go try the changes. Put some effort behind your feedback and maybe it will carry more weight with the devs. I know I was discouraged to realize that weeks after Publish 80 went live, some people who post here regularly still didn't understand some aspects of refinement because they clearly never bothered to actually try it on Test or anywhere else.

I'm not trying to be rude to anyone. I understand a lot of people don't think it's their job to test stuff and I agree that it isn't the job of players to have to test things for quality control. However, if a new system is going in and we have the opportunity to try it out, why just read about the changes and miss the opportunity to actually do a real test drive?

I've done that time and time again and they NEVER address anything negative during beta/test center unless it is an exploit. You don't think the entire community was up in arms when refinements was on TC? C'mon. 20 to 1 negative posts and the number of refinements came up many times. No dice.

It is completely pointless to test anything on TC unless looking for exploits because any other feedback is ignored.

 

[atinycow]

The names change, the insults do not. I am not a cheerleader nor have I ever been one.

I gave you an honest, reality-based assessment.

It clashed, however mildly, with your ideology. I do not weep.

-Galen's player

from now on i'm going to hear all your posts in this guys voice

 

[atinycow]

I've done that time and time again and they NEVER address anything negative during beta/test center unless it is an exploit. You don't think the entire community was up in arms when refinements was on TC? C'mon. 20 to 1 negative posts and the number of refinements came up many times. No dice.

It is completely pointless to test anything on TC unless looking for exploits because any other feedback is ignored.

THIS.

 

[Tina Small]

I've done that time and time again and they NEVER address anything negative during beta/test center unless it is an exploit. You don't think the entire community was up in arms when refinements was on TC? C'mon. 20 to 1 negative posts and the number of refinements came up many times. No dice.

It is completely pointless to test anything on TC unless looking for exploits because any other feedback is ignored.

Yes, I know you are one of the people who actually goes and tries stuff on Test Center. But I wonder if the devs actually saw more log-ins there from people other than those who normally play there every day and people actually spending time using the new content, whether they'd give more credence to the feedback. I test what I can, but I don't play a lot of different templates either. As a result, I always feel like I'm just skimming the surface with some aspects of testing new stuff.

 

[Uvtha]

I've done that time and time again and they NEVER address anything negative during beta/test center unless it is an exploit. You don't think the entire community was up in arms when refinements was on TC? C'mon. 20 to 1 negative posts and the number of refinements came up many times. No dice.

It is completely pointless to test anything on TC unless looking for exploits because any other feedback is ignored.

To be fair, they DID listen to feedback on armor and removal of feint, and that ended up just fine. So its not COMPLETELY pointless.

I think probably if something has art (as refinements did) then its probably happening no matter what.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

from now on i'm going to hear all your posts in this guys voice

The site you linked to wishes you to upgrade your account.

I'm sure it was very funny though. You've always been great with the flash, and occasionally good with the substance. Only occasionally though. Ironically, with the lack of use generally of Refinement you basically were right, just exaggerated. It's one of your many calling cards.

-Galen's player

 

[atinycow]

hmm works for me, tell me if this one shows

 

[atinycow]

you sure its not just you? it looked like you were having a hard time seeing an image in a different thread where i could see it. anyway whatev, hosting it myself on imgur, because i care

 

[Viper09]

No, it isn't. In the other thread Tanivar hadn't posted it until later. And after you edited your post a few minutes ago it is now viewable.

It initially gave the same message about you needing to upgrade your account like before. Moot point now though...

 

[Adol]

I'm not trying to be rude to anyone. I understand a lot of people don't think it's their job to test stuff and I agree that it isn't the job of players to have to test things for quality control. However, if a new system is going in and we have the opportunity to try it out, why just read about the changes and miss the opportunity to actually do a real test drive?

The problem is, once systems start becoming complex for complexities sake, the ability of people to actually test something starts to shrink; I give as an example the fishing quests. No one can say that I've personally not tested that to exhaustion... around 600-700 of the total data set is my own quests. But can I tell you what the loot table is? Absolutely not. I can make some rough guesses, but the reward lists is so large, and the generation of it probably involves two random rolls, so apart from "disappointment" even now I can't possibly tell you what to expect for your own quest.

And how many people have the time or inclination to do that level of grinding? Especially with the beta testing time you get on Test Centre.

When it comes to the item crafting system, it was already complex beyond all reason; I've an imbuer, but I refuse to speak up when someone is looking for armour made because I hate spending hours balancing and designing suits. Fortunately with average wear and tear I can go 2+ years without needing too myself, so I can ignore it. And the money simply isn't worth the stress for me. So how was I supposed to test a system even more complex on top of that? I couldn't even understand what it was for; I didn't see the need for that high end a suit. How many people do? Vexxed is here pretending to some of elitist knowledge but only one other person responded, and only to deflate it... no one really cares, they'll play PvM in the ways they find fun, as always. In PvP? Good luck getting the people who face your suit to ever acknowledge in General Chat the power of it except through the same endless gibbon-hooting of "crutch!" and personal abuse they always use. No, Ultima Online in general never was, and never will be the sort of game where people are obsessed with stats as in any of the Diablo clones; Age of Shadows was the big gamble that they would, and that gamble failed. So where are the testers of a system they don't want and can't understand going to come from?

Especially when, some of the glaring flaws which didn't require any knowledge weren't even acknowledged; really, these items don't even stack? But it went through anyway. So people didn't have the energy to tease out the nuance of a pointlessly over-complex system they didn't like, just to say that it does indeed work, in a way they didn't understand, on a shard they don't normally play and isn't permanent. You could argue that people should have been less selfish... but again, fishing document; it's a shame, but really, people just aren't that unselfish. And as a game designer you should be designing around that simple fact.

 

[atinycow]

the thing that grinds my gears is the sheer ARROGANCE required of the devs for them to post some idea, listen to everyone tell them why it stinks, push ahead with it anyway, have it fail miserably, and then just ignore that failure and push ahead with their NEXT brilliant idea everyone hates.

next time they have an idea and everyone tells them its awful, that screenshot of hundreds of refinement components nobody would even pick off the bank floor will absolutely not come to their minds. it will not slow them down one bit, any more than the wreck they made of factions did.

 

[Petra Fyde]

PS: Is the Stratics profanity filter working for anyone else? It's not working for me. Oh well.

Thank you for editing Galen. The profanity filter has now been extended.

 

[G.v.P]

I've seen two people on Atlantic so far with refined armour. Yes I think your right. Maybe not very popular.

I'm late to this party, but from my initial testing, I had trouble obtaining all the parts needed for refinement. That initial struggle dissuaded me from replicating the task once live on production.

 

[G.v.P]

For almost 30 mins now I've spammed in general chat telling people this is all over Moonglow bank area for free, I had 1 person show up and snag a handful and that's it. Doubt I collect anymore.
View attachment 14644

So that's how to do it? Do you clear out boxes so they respawn?

 

[S_S]

So that's how to do it? Do you clear out boxes so they respawn?

Mine didn't come from boxes. Mine all came from lvl 6 t-chests. And all those in the picture aren't even half of what I've gotten. I still have all the hardening, fort and invuln ones!

 

[Experimental]

Why couldn't they just have employed my idea of Transmogrification posted here - http://stratics.com/community/threa...s-proposals-and-pitfalls.285779/#post-2185221?

Ummm, cuz this isn't WoW??? Just a guess.

 

[Nails Warstein]

WOW

Ummm, cuz this isn't WoW??? Just a guess.

WoW doesn't have exclusive rights to the term Transmogrification, and this would be different when applied to UO. If you don't like the word. Change it.

 

[atinycow]

typing ideas at the dev team is wasted effort

 

[claudia-fjp]

typing ideas at the dev team is wasted effort

You mean like the entire refinement system? /rimshot

 

[Theo_GL]

You mean like the entire refinement system? /rimshot

Actually bad example - I don't think that was player created. That was dev created and player hated.

Atinycow means those ideas put forth by the playerbase are largely ignored.

 

[claudia-fjp]

Actually bad example - I don't think that was player created. That was dev created and player hated.

Atinycow means those ideas put forth by the playerbase are largely ignored.

It was a joke Theo, a rimshot is that thing the drum player does after a late night host makes a joke. It wasn't an example or referenceing who created what. Hell his post could have been "Why did I make this post, it was a wasted effort." and my reply would be the same...

 

[Aurelius]

We play games for fun. Refinements are an overcomplicated, barely comprehensible way to get a minor addition to an already complex calculation to create 'optimised' suit. As it's neither fun, nor important enough, it's ignored.

As I've said before, it's a not unreasonable idea, but implemented in a truly terrible way, by someone very good at designing codes and systems but missing the understanding that, in a game, it needs to be what a player considers fun or rewarding (usually in terms of allowing access to even more fun) to do or people won't do it. We very badly need a GAME designer to sit in with the systems people and get things back into context - grinding, extra calculations, sub-systems and overcomplication are no good, no matter how clever they look as a 'process'.

Ship combat is rarely seen, great idea but poor implementation. Similarly, beyond a few almost full time imbuers, the complexity of that system reduces involvement - though as it is useful for most players to have access to an imbuer to help make equipment 'better', it is at least 'used' in an indirect way by most of us. Fishing quests, reforging, city loyalties, the casino - all decent basic ideas, only attracting a tiny proportion of the players because they require too much time, are overly complicated, and worst of all they fail to be enjoyable. Making a really neat 'sub-game' for 2-3 percent of the playerbase is a risky proposition to start with, and when those new sub-systems impact on a much bigger proportion of the playerbase, they need much better design than we usually see. If even the 2-3% 'target audience' don't like it, it's a serious waste of time and effort for an already pushed development team.

Get back to simple and fun. That's what is needed to keep and increase the playerbase, make people WANT to buy expansions and addons, take part in more of the activities and spend more time playing.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Thank you for editing Galen. The profanity filter has now been extended.

I'll take the credit, but that must've been one of your folks, I had to leave the computer for an extended period immediately after posting.

One of your folks or, perhaps, once you fixed the profanity it also "edited" the post as appropriate.

-Galen's player

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Why couldn't they just have employed my idea of Transmogrification posted here - http://stratics.com/community/threa...s-proposals-and-pitfalls.285779/#post-2185221?

Kyronixhas suggested that this would be much more difficult than it sounds, hence why they aren't doing it.

So technically they have, at least, addressed the issue.

-Galen's player

 

[Berethrain]

They pushed ahead with refinements because there were several people that said oh that isn't that bad they "fixed" it.

It seems that's all the devs needed to see, despite all the rest of the posts, and thought that's all we needed to hear. 5 out of a hundred isn't bad.

I tried the refinement with the extra dci on a production shard, it wasn't worth the lack of mana regen.

I admit my MR was only 24 and putting it up to 32 may have changed it some, but I doubt it. Though on the other hand, it is very difficult to find invuln studded leather refinements because of the wide variety of refinements. I usually ended up with stone garg armor or some random stuff I'd never use.

 

[cdavbar]

For almost 30 mins now I've spammed in general chat telling people this is all over Moonglow bank area for free, I had 1 person show up and snag a handful and that's it. Doubt I collect anymore.
View attachment 14644

What shard were you on? What a waste of materials. I run a healthy GL vendor house selling these things. They are sought after by people. Im also saving up my own "private collection" to do some mods to some suits soon too.

I do agree things could be made easier such as stack-able, less types (use general material instead of specifics within a material ie leathers instead of hide, studded, studded sam). But to say no one uses the system or it is useless is not the case. For example, once i get a 20 DCI from shame. Ill be dropping some cap to raise my DCI up on my sampire (75 Energy is so over-rated anyways).

 

[cdavbar]

MONKEY SEE....MONKEY DO!


This is what will happen with refinements. Think of it like this.....

1) 50% of the populace have the money to refine suits if they wanted
2) 20% of them understands how refinements work in detail.
2) 10% of those that understand the system & have the innovation to think of the perfect spot / purpose to use a refined suit for.

So... ultimately maybe that 1 person in 100 has been busy lately... Dont worry youll see him on his sampire rocking his 80% energy / 60Dci suit...He will be rocking a 100% poison Air ele slayer and dropping runes to his vendor filled with 50m+ jewelry... This is where

MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO... comes in for the other 99%..... if you still dont follow...99% will have to do for ya. KEEP an eye out youll see how its done.. heh

MMuhahah

You mean 70 energy 60 DCI Suit (-10 DCI from DF will give samp 50 DCI meeting the new cap).

 

[cdavbar]

Oh dear.

But yes; I've been picking up refinements, they're in MiBs and the holds of both pirate ships and merchants, they're in treasure maps... and you know it's a terrible inefficient system when you've got 54 already (non stacking) and you think "I'll wait until there's 100 to put it in auction, won't be long"... and then a screen shot like this confirms what you already suspected, that no one is going to bother bidding on even 100!

I think I am done reading this thread and the ridiculous posts from people here. Maybe you are on the wrong shard for these to be worth-while, I don't know. I make "bulk" purchases from auctions and from individuals who do not feel like crafting them up to usable refinements or dealing with the vendor/storage space issues. I pay at most half for what I would charge for it. Seller frees up secures, makes a little cash in the process, I get stock for my vendors that cant seem to ever stay stocked sometimes.

 

[S_S]

What shard were you on? What a waste of materials. I run a healthy GL vendor house selling these things. They are sought after by people. Im also saving up my own "private collection" to do some mods to some suits soon too.

I do agree things could be made easier such as stack-able, less types (use general material instead of specifics within a material ie leathers instead of hide, studded, studded sam). But to say no one uses the system or it is useless is not the case. For example, once i get a 20 DCI from shame. Ill be dropping some cap to raise my DCI up on my sampire (75 Energy is so over-rated anyways).

I did this on Baja. I had all those refinements sitting on vendors for quite awhile now @ 20k each and not even ONE sold. Hence why I placed them out for free, tired of paying vendor fee. Those in the pic are all the lower end 2 types. I still have hardening on my vendor and zero have sold. After an hour of spamming a few people showed and took about 1/3-1/2 of them. I logged after that and no idea what happened to the remaining ones still sitting on the ground.

 

[Adol]

I think I am done reading this thread and the ridiculous posts from people here. Maybe you are on the wrong shard for these to be worth-while, I don't know. I make "bulk" purchases from auctions and from individuals who do not feel like crafting them up to usable refinements or dealing with the vendor/storage space issues. I pay at most half for what I would charge for it. Seller frees up secures, makes a little cash in the process, I get stock for my vendors that cant seem to ever stay stocked sometimes.

If you don't know, don't you think you should make the effort to find out before insulting someone as stupid? Especially as you are responding to someone who, if you'd read the reply carefully, logs 700 fishing quests... Not the sort of person you want to try arguing facts with, because I happen to have chat logging on full time too

Shard is Europa, natch.

[13/05/29][20:07:19] [Amantala]: Next up 14 Refinements
[13/05/29][20:07:41] [Amorph Mus]: rest on vendor for display
[13/05/29][20:08:09] [Amantala]: You may start the bidding!
[13/05/29][20:08:31] [Amantala]: 14 of these
[13/05/29][20:08:34] [Amantala]: anyone want them?
[13/05/29][20:08:41] [Aron Swordmaster]: *looks around with interest*
[13/05/29][20:08:42] [T Hunter]: ermt hunter 5k

At this point, no one had bid for over 1 minute.

[13/05/29][20:08:58] [Amantala]: T Hunter 5k
[13/05/29][20:08:59] [Ke'ree]: what they used for?

Regular auction goers aren't even sure how they work..

[13/05/29][20:09:01] [Qwerty-]: Qwerty 10k
[13/05/29][20:09:02] [Amantala]: 14 of these
[13/05/29][20:09:04] [Amantala]: Qwerty 10k
[13/05/29][20:09:05] [Perry Ragus]: nothing ?
[13/05/29][20:09:07] [Amantala]: Qwerty 10k
[13/05/29][20:09:10] [T Hunter]: ermt hunter 5ok
[13/05/29][20:09:14] [Amantala]: Qwerty 10k
[13/05/29][20:09:21] [Aron Swordmaster]: read up on Reforging for these
[13/05/29][20:09:23] [Amantala]: T Hunter 50k
[13/05/29][20:09:26] [Yelinda]: Shadow Spinner
[13/05/29][20:09:30] [Amantala]: T Hunter 50k
[13/05/29][20:09:31] [Amorph Mus]: thanks
[13/05/29][20:09:32] [Caliban]: afk 55 k
[13/05/29][20:09:43] [Amantala]: Caliban 55k
[13/05/29][20:09:50] [Ralan]: looks like someone emptied the art cupboard at the special school
[13/05/29][20:09:53] [Amantala]: Caliban 55k
[13/05/29][20:09:54] [Amantala]: Going once!
[13/05/29][20:09:55] [<29497915>SirPotAlot]: Forgot my jewels
[13/05/29][20:09:57] [Amantala]: Going Twice!
[13/05/29][20:10:00] [Amantala]: Sold!!
[13/05/29][20:10:00] [Amantala]: *Hits hammer on table*
[13/05/29][20:10:16] [Aron Swordmaster]: These are a disaster; there's a thread on stratics of someone just dumping them in moonglow, and no one loots them

That was last night; 55k for 14 of them...

Would you like me to quote all the attempts to sell them in General chat over the last week next, perchance? To be fair though, one of the attempts to sell was the same 14 refinements because no one could be bothered, and they were put into the auction. And there was a chest of 121 of them for 1.5m... that didn't, as far as I know, sell either.

 

[Vexxed]

You mean 70 energy 60 DCI Suit (-10 DCI from DF will give samp 50 DCI meeting the new cap).

1) Not Using Divine Fury
2) Elf Base Energy Resist of 75 Refined for 5 More up to 80% Phys / fire / Cold / poion can all be Refined down to 65 Cap which equates to +20 Dci... Though I was considering not Refining Fire down to 65% because of the Mages in the area and the Fire Elementals / Magma Elementals. I've been almost instant killed a few times with low fire so figured 60% Dci would probably be enough.

 

[atinycow]

Would you like me to quote all the attempts to sell them in General chat over the last week next, perchance? To be fair though, one of the attempts to sell was the same 14 refinements because no one could be bothered, and they were put into the auction. And there was a chest of 121 of them for 1.5m... that didn't, as far as I know, sell either.

rofl

I want to know what Cdv is selling his refinements for. Bet it's 5k each or something.

 

[cdavbar]

rofl

I want to know what Cdv is selling his refinements for. Bet it's 5k each or something.

Defensive 5k
Protection 10k
Hardening 15k
Fortification 20k
Invulnerability 100k-2m

Prices were holding steady at 25k per lvl but the over saturation of it has lowered prices quickly the last two weeks. Still a healthy profit for no effort. Laugh all you want

 

[cdavbar]

I did this on Baja. I had all those refinements sitting on vendors for quite awhile now @ 20k each and not even ONE sold. Hence why I placed them out for free, tired of paying vendor fee. Those in the pic are all the lower end 2 types. I still have hardening on my vendor and zero have sold. After an hour of spamming a few people showed and took about 1/3-1/2 of them. I logged after that and no idea what happened to the remaining ones still sitting on the ground.

First week of Refinements on GL I was sellign them 250k no matter the level. Second week, was sellign tehm for 25k per level (defense/protection/hardening etc.) A little over a week ago though ive had to lower prices to 5k per level except invulnerability which remains at 100k - 2m depending on teh armor type. Over saturation and competition caused prices to be lowered. However they still move really well and some things are hard to keep in stock.

I think that some shards just dont have teh people to demand them like other shards do.

I also sell a good amount of stone and dragon, people prefer to "practice" with those as they are more abundant and no one cares if they get screwed up and/or lost.

 

[cdavbar]

If you don't know, don't you think you should make the effort to find out before insulting someone as stupid? Especially as you are responding to someone who, if you'd read the reply carefully, logs 700 fishing quests... Not the sort of person you want to try arguing facts with, because I happen to have chat logging on full time too

Shard is Europa, natch.



That was last night; 55k for 14 of them...

Would you like me to quote all the attempts to sell them in General chat over the last week next, perchance? To be fair though, one of the attempts to sell was the same 14 refinements because no one could be bothered, and they were put into the auction. And there was a chest of 121 of them for 1.5m... that didn't, as far as I know, sell either.

First off, I never called you stupid. Further, for people to want to bid on them you need more details tahn just 100 refinemetns in a bag. How many of what level and of what armor types etc etc. If its 100 gargish stone defensive reinforcement refinements your only gonna get 250k from a re-seller, 500-750k retail, at least on GL (yes i noticed you said your on Europa but the principle is the same no matter the shard).

There have been people spamming in chat on GL for days lookign for plate, ringmail, leather, studded leathers, etc etc, I cant keep some of it stocked for the life of me.

So like I SAID IN MY POST ABOVE, maybe you are on the wrong shard for these to be worthwhile. Some shards have a higher demand than others.

 

[kelmo]

Hi. *smiles*
Let's all discuss this in an adult manner. This is exactly the sort of thing that needs discussing and views from all sorts of different folks with all sorts of views and experiences... I am sure there are gonna be some good things that come of all this. Sharing ideas, ways to succeed and things that work. That sharing works both ways. Share failures and confusion...

 

[Adol]

First off, I never called you stupid. Further, for people to want to bid on them you need more details tahn just 100 refinemetns in a bag. How many of what level and of what armor types etc etc. If its 100 gargish stone defensive reinforcement refinements your only gonna get 250k from a re-seller, 500-750k retail, at least on GL (yes i noticed you said your on Europa but the principle is the same no matter the shard).

There have been people spamming in chat on GL for days lookign for plate, ringmail, leather, studded leathers, etc etc, I cant keep some of it stocked for the life of me.

So like I SAID IN MY POST ABOVE, maybe you are on the wrong shard for these to be worthwhile. Some shards have a higher demand than others.

Firstly, what evidence do you have that every other shard is wrong, but Great Lakes is in fact valuing Refinements correctly? Have you sampled the purchasers on your vendor to test how many unique individuals are involved on Great Lakes for that matter?

Secondly, if you think population defines how much trade is done in an item, why isn't anyone buying them up on Europa and everywhere else ready to move them to Atlantic for the raresfest, or just over to Great Lakes? They shard hop to harvest EM items and exploit tiny differences in price of consumables like Heritage Tokens; why aren't they doing so for Refinements, which people are just dropping on the ground to decay elsewhere? And what is the causal link for why the trade completely dead on those shards that you're claiming?

Thirdly, do you really consider 5k an item (low end) worthy profit? That's 1 minute of Tsuki Wolves, or being sat underneath a dragon in Painted Caves. Your own claims indicate prices plummeted within a week. How many 1-2m suits do you think are going to be made on Great Lakes before they stop selling too? What data do you have as to whether the other shards in step 2 haven't already explored the new system and completed any need for it, thus being ahead of Great Lakes rather than behind?

Fourthly, does your ability to profit from something make it a decent system? Does your ability to make a profit carry more weight than other people's direct proof that they can't give away the refinements, or make your refinements stack in some manner?

Fifthly, and finally, does your pleasure in them somehow negate the fact that almost everyone else hates them? And if not, why are you so angry about "ridiculous posts"... if people hate a system, and have facts to back up that opinion, surely they have the right, nay the imperative to express that displeasure?

 

[Obsidian]

I am doing exactly what cdavbar is insinuating. I am trading my elven energy resist max to 70 for 50 DCI on my warriors. It isn't a huge difference, but every little bit of DCI helps. Oh and now I am also going to run with 50-55 LMC (depending on what armor types I use).

 

[The Zog historian]

I did this on Baja. I had all those refinements sitting on vendors for quite awhile now @ 20k each and not even ONE sold. Hence why I placed them out for free, tired of paying vendor fee. Those in the pic are all the lower end 2 types. I still have hardening on my vendor and zero have sold. After an hour of spamming a few people showed and took about 1/3-1/2 of them. I logged after that and no idea what happened to the remaining ones still sitting on the ground.

Protection and Hardening are worthless except for the rare specialized suit that need just two or three resists modified. The non-stackable effects mean that people will hold out for Fortification and Invulnerability.

And with the idiotically low 30% odds, it's a better chance of using an Invulnerability refinement to get four modifications.

 

[cdavbar]

Firstly, what evidence do you have that every other shard is wrong, but Great Lakes is in fact valuing Refinements correctly?

Never said that, again you twist my words. I didn't say the shards are "wrong" but maybe if your trying to sell them for profit you are on the wrong shard to make it worth while.

Have you sampled the purchasers on your vendor to test how many unique individuals are involved on Great Lakes for that matter?

I'll be sure to set up a camera monitoring my customers and get you a grand total.

Secondly, if you think population defines how much trade is done in an item, why isn't anyone buying them up on Europa and everywhere else ready to move them to Atlantic for the raresfest, or just over to Great Lakes? They shard hop to harvest EM items and exploit tiny differences in price of consumables like Heritage Tokens; why aren't they doing so for Refinements, which people are just dropping on the ground to decay elsewhere? And what is the causal link for why the trade completely dead on those shards that you're claiming?

As mentioned in other posts, there are people (or at least one person) that shard-hops to find the one's they need.

Thirdly, do you really consider 5k an item (low end) worthy profit? That's 1 minute of Tsuki Wolves, or being sat underneath a dragon in Painted Caves. Your own claims indicate prices plummeted within a week. How many 1-2m suits do you think are going to be made on Great Lakes before they stop selling too? What data do you have as to whether the other shards in step 2 haven't already explored the new system and completed any need for it, thus being ahead of Great Lakes rather than behind?

No matter how far or behind a shard is from another as far as need goes, there will always be a need for it and a buyer and a seller. I think you are just too pissy that you are having too much trouble selling something others have found easy to do. As far as 5k for Defense, that virtually costs nothing to place on vendor, and covers my vendor fees for a few day so if I have a dry spell I'm not losing money. I keep a full selection. I don't limit it to the mega money makers of just Fortified and Invulnerability. Millions per week for passive income, yes its worth it for the few minutes it takes to check my vendors and replace missing stock with my overflow if I have any left.

Fourthly, does your ability to profit from something make it a decent system? Does your ability to make a profit carry more weight than other people's direct proof that they can't give away the refinements, or make your refinements stack in some manner?

If you had ever read any of my posts, I have mentioned many times the system could be improved. Hell even making the finished refinements stack-able at the very least. I think the concept is nice but I do, and have agreed that it is extremely ridiculous to have 120 different types of items you could easily do with 30.

Fifthly, and finally, does your pleasure in them somehow negate the fact that almost everyone else hates them? And if not, why are you so angry about "ridiculous posts"... if people hate a system, and have facts to back up that opinion, surely they have the right, nay the imperative to express that displeasure?

Now I turn the tables on you, where are your hard numbers on the fact almost everyone else hates them? Stratics posts/polls/comments show nothing of real demand or feeling towards any item or system in the game. My comment on ridiculous posts is due to the fact people like you and many others come on here and say things like "No one wanted this system", "this system sucks", "no one uses the system". My replies have been to show there is an interest in this system by people. Never to glorify it and say that the dev's got it right and need to forge ahead on the next big thing.

 

[atinycow]

Now I turn the tables on you, where are your hard numbers on the fact almost everyone else hates them?

There have been zero posts about them on the trade forum since after the first week. That means it's been over a month without anyone making a peep about them.

This is not what a successful system looks like.

You do not live in a fantasy world where everyone loves them except for everyone who posts on Stratics. Even you admit that the prices you were getting at first decreased by 90% after the first week. That is what it looks like when something is rejected.

 

[Picus of Napa]

I don't think that everyone hates them but more that the reward is not close to being worth the effort. Most of us want the top tier refinements, cause why not, but it's such a struggle to first get the item and then actually roll the dice for the level 5 mod. Fail a few times after spending a few days checking crates and you just give up.

 

[cdavbar]

There have been zero posts about them on the trade forum since after the first week. That means it's been over a month without anyone making a peep about them.

This is not what a successful system looks like.

You do not live in a fantasy world where everyone loves them except for everyone who posts on Stratics. Even you admit that the prices you were getting at first decreased by 90% after the first week. That is what it looks like when something is rejected.

Not rejected but over saturated due to excessively high drop rates. Classic developer screw up. As far as trade forums. Your basing your assumption that everyone uses the trade forums. I visit that forum once ever 6 months for S & Giggles. Your basing your "successful system" analysis yourself on Stratics which I never did, as you claim.

 

[atinycow]

On one hand, we have my theory, that refinements are low in value because demand is low.

On the other hand, we have your theory, that refinements are low in value because supply is high.

As evidence, we have the fact that nobody can be seen wearing the bloody things.

Yeah I know which theory I'm going with. But hey, maybe this refinement thing that 90% of everyone hated had some sort of big turnaround that mysteriously has gone unnoticed by everyone except you. The rest of us were all fooled by the pages and pages of complaints and people throwing the ingredients in the trash.

 

[Viper09]

On one hand, we have my theory, that refinements are low in value because demand is low.

On the other hand, we have your theory, that refinements are low in value because supply is high.

As evidence, we have the fact that nobody can be seen wearing the bloody things.

Yeah I know which theory I'm going with. But hey, maybe this refinement thing that 90% of everyone hated had some sort of big turnaround that mysteriously has gone unnoticed by everyone except you. The rest of us were all fooled by the pages and pages of complaints and people throwing the ingredients in the trash.

90%? Really? My statistics show only 50%. Of course I base that on the same pool of sampling as you, absolutely nothing (nothing reliable at least). Anyhow, no one really cares who does or does not hate it. How about turning this discussion into something more useful, ideas to make it better received? I ask this because we all know, base on history, that this system isn't going anywhere.

If you wish to rant, by all means go ahead and do so and lead this thread to being locked. Your choice really. Just personally tired of reading the same rants over and over about how many do or do not use this new system...

 

[atinycow]

90%? Really? My statistics show only 50%. Of course I base that on the same pool of sampling as you, absolutely nothing (nothing reliable at least). Anyhow, no one really cares who does or does not hate it. How about turning this discussion into something more useful, ideas to make it better received? I ask this because we all know, base on history, that this system isn't going anywhere.

If you wish to rant, by all means go ahead and do so and lead this thread to being locked. Your choice really. Just personally tired of reading the same rants over and over about how many do or do not use this new system...

Actually it was 80% who were against it according to the last forum poll before it was published. Yeah I know, forum poll, but I haven't seen anything that makes me think the general UO public likes it any better.

How would I fix it? I dunno, massive overhaul of the components involved? Or better yet, remove the requirement for ingredients completely. I mean let's face it, the idea that the quest to gather refinement materials was going to send people off into the dungeons and stuff just didn't happen. Just make it a thing crafters can do. Or make it all only take one item, and make that item pretty uncommon.

 

[Tina Small]

I mean let's face it, the idea that the quest to gather refinement materials was going to send people off into the dungeons and stuff just didn't happen. Just make it a thing crafters can do. Or make it all only take one item, and make that item pretty uncommon.

Err, there is no quest that you have to accept to get refinement components. You also don't get the raw components in dungeons, other than while you're doing a champion spawn that happens to take place inside a dungeon. You get them from stealing in certain trade NPC shops in Felucca, in treasure chests, in SOS chests, from the holds of pirate and merchant ships, and from the bodies of champion spawn bosses.

If the devs did like you said and make the whole system rely on only one uncommon item, where would you suggest that you find or get that item?

 

[legendsguy]

You get them from stealing in certain trade NPC shops in Felucca, in treasure chests, in SOS chests, from the holds of pirate and merchant ships, and from the bodies of champion spawn bosses.

This is one of the more infuriating parts of it all. You have such a piddling chance of obtaining the refinements you need (really we're looking at invulnerability and -maybe- fortification), and yet the ways of obtaining said refinements are still very time-consuming and can't be done by many of the players. We have stealing which not many people have (and is naturally in Fel so most PvMers won't want to even bother); treasure chests if you have a treasure hunter, though most don't; SOS's which you need a fisher for, and even so, it takes a good amount of time just sailing to the damn spot; and pirate/merchant ships--well, I tried to do this with some friends actually, but we couldn't obtain all the necessary ingredients to even shoot the cannons, which as you know, is important considering you burn through materials when you have to shoot 20-30 times to scuttle a pirate ship. And of course, champion spawn bosses, which really shouldn't even count considering how long it takes to do a spawn, then to successfully kill the boss, then to hope you even get worthwhile refinements.

If the refinements were more easily obtainable--a lot more easily--then the rarities (1 in 120 for anything!) wouldn't be such a hardship. Why not put them on paragons? Or even just put them as creature loot so people have a reason to open up corpses again outside of Shame/Wrong? At the very least we need more ways of obtaining the refinements.

 

[atinycow]

Err, there is no quest that you have to accept to get refinement components. You also don't get the raw components in dungeons, other than while you're doing a champion spawn that happens to take place inside a dungeon. You get them from stealing in certain trade NPC shops in Felucca, in treasure chests, in SOS chests, from the holds of pirate and merchant ships, and from the bodies of champion spawn bosses.

By "quest" I mean "objective" not a formal quest delineated by the in-game quest engine, and by "dungeons and stuff" I mean any sort of adventuring activity. God, way to split hairs.

If the devs did like you said and make the whole system rely on only one uncommon item, where would you suggest that you find or get that item?

I dunno, make it a Doom drop maybe, but real rare? That'd be fun.