EA already proposed that back in 2006 with Punkbuster. It was EA's Last Stand against cheating in UO. The cheaters started a massive misinformation and propaganda campaign against PB (because PB actually works), and their campaign unfortunately worked. The vast majority of UO Stratics users refused Punkbuster out of paranoid fear that it would scan their computer specifically for their collection of albino, midget hermophrodite porn or the TOP SECRET NSA/FBI files that they kept un-encrypted on their personal home computer, or some such equally ridiculous crap.
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NEWS Transcript of Developer Meet & Greet 04June2014 - Atlantic Shard
I know you've been a proponent of Punkbuster, but it's not "paranoia," please realize. Some of us do work or have worked at home on our "best" PC that is also used for UO, and even if I could trust something like Punkbuster that there is no way in heaven, on earth or in hell that I could ethically allow such a monitoring program to run on my machine. What am I going to do, submit the program to the SVP of InfoSec so one of his people can verify what it does? What will they say when they find it can grab screenshots? They'd remind me that I myself have lectured too many people about visiting unsafe sites that might compromise their machines.
And frankly, I don't know Even Balance, Inc., well enough to trust that they don't have a rogue employee that might see and act upon something sensitive. For whatever guarantees a company can give, there's the old adage about a chain being as strong as its weakest link. I don't even like calling my cable company and having to verify myself with the last four digits of my SSN.
Also, it's not like Punkbuster can't be fooled. All it takes is one byte to make an MD5 hash completely different, and besides getting around detection, didn't some Battlefield 3 players get framed a couple of years ago because of Punkbuster holes? EA would do better to implement server-side checks to defeat whatever is coming from the client and possible third-party programs, but then again, they should have done that years ago to tighten up their code. I dare say that long before Punkbuster, they had ceased to be serious about catching cheaters.
Back then I proposed a MUCH simplier solution and no fear for Big Brother.....
What solution ?
Just change both clients so that they could only run if NOTHING ELSE is running on the computer but an anti-virus or a firewall. Period.
As soon as the UO client detects that any other program is running, be it in the background and in the foreground or wherever, the UO client would shut itself down within seconds and not restart until any other software running on that computer is closed for good.... No information is sent out, externally to the PC. The detection is strictly for the UO client to determine whether it can or not run on that computer.
I see no problem in this. Want to play Ultima Online ? Cool, just know that when you play Ultima Online one can ONLY play Ultima Online and not do anything else. No multi tasking, sorry.....
That would finally be the end of running third party software while playing Ultima Online....
Unfortunately, it has not happened....
Uh, yeah. UOAM/Cartographer? ICQ or other IMs? What about small executables like OSDs for keyboards?
And what exceptions would you make for Windows processes? Do you realize that once you start making exceptions, it's easy to disguise something as a non-Windows firewall, malware scanner or even a Windows process? Do you not know that malware likes to hide itself as svchost.exe and the like? UO, Punkbuster and anything else can be easily defeated because they can scan only for known knowns. I don't know if you can understand that bit of logic, but there it is.
Please, please consider what you're saying there. Good lord. It would be the death of UO if you had your way here.
People without technical knowledge shouldn't be proposing technical solutions... for their own sake. That was pretty funny to read tho.
The funny thing also is that most people whining about Punkbuster probably have a lot worse installed on their comps right now.
Let's start at Microsoft Windows and go from there.
The funny thing also is that most people whining about Punkbuster probably have a lot worse installed on their comps right now.
Let's start at Microsoft Windows and go from there.Well, with todays' computers it could be possible to run those in other OS instances (i.e. not in the same OS instance with the UO client), if really necessary..... I mean, we have players running up 5 UO clients at once, I guess it would not be a problem to have 1 OS instance with only UO running and then another separate OS instance with ICQ or Vent.....
That said, if it really was necessary for players to have to use VENT in the same OS instance as the UO client (I do not see this necessity, really, for ICQ...), there could be a limited exception for VENT that the UO client could "tolerate" as being up together with the UO client at once in the same OS instance. this could also be for UOAssist, for example. But other then that, open up anything else in the same OS instance where UO is running and the client would self shut down within seconds and not relaunch until those programs are shut off for good.
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Well, at least is a proposed alternative to anything which might bring up fears of Big Brother........
Is it better perhaps to maintain the current status quo that advantages rampant cheating ??
I don't think so.....
At least is a suggestion to a known problem in UO and game killer for many.....
Why don't the tech knowledged players then bring up their suggestions to a better way to stop cheating in UO once and for all ??
Oh good lord. You want to cure the disease by killing the patient.
Please get some clue about how computer programming works, then if you're still so sure about "nothing but UO can run," go and create your own game. See how many people would even bother with that first login, let alone character creation, once they have to stop running everything. With your proposal, people can't even launch a browser to check UO Guide or Stratics.
It's amazing how much the common UO player takes talking to the dev as a god given right in this day and age.
We are so fortunate that the Dev do listen and talk directly to us.
It also is a shame some want to use that oppertunity as a way to cut them down or the game.
The questions they need are not of the me me variaty but of the game as a whole that conserns you as a player.
I understand a Title might be top most on your list... but honestly what is bugging me is given the chance to ask or suguest something that can help all and make the game a more plesant place is not their top priority. '
Many asked good questions...
I'd like to see more.
I think we owe Bonnie and the Dev and our EMs who help on their own time a big thank you.
They are home doing this when they could be relaxing and having family time.
If you all didnt know it that video chat a bit back was their real homes not the office.
We are so fortunate that the Dev do listen and talk directly to us.
It also is a shame some want to use that oppertunity as a way to cut them down or the game.
The questions they need are not of the me me variaty but of the game as a whole that conserns you as a player.
I understand a Title might be top most on your list... but honestly what is bugging me is given the chance to ask or suguest something that can help all and make the game a more plesant place is not their top priority. '
Many asked good questions...
I'd like to see more.
I think we owe Bonnie and the Dev and our EMs who help on their own time a big thank you.
They are home doing this when they could be relaxing and having family time.
If you all didnt know it that video chat a bit back was their real homes not the office.
Nope, they could, they would only need to open another OS instance, separate to that running the UO client, and launch anything they may want in that one.....
Several UO players do this right now to have multiple UO clients run at once, why would this be such a big deal if it helped kill cheating in UO ?
Rubbish. You are giving us more pure, unadulterated rubbish. You'd make the game so ridiculously inconvenient to play that who would bother? People would sooner pull out an old VCS to play Pong.
Go back and read what I said about people not bothering with that first login, let alone character creation.
sounds like you need a devoted work computer that doesnt have games on it zog.
Like my laptop...
No games, just work.
No games, just work.
Notwithstanding I'm not about to set up a second monitor, mouse and keyboard, there's no reason a PC can't be used for both. If I'm home at night and set an alchemist to "make max" on something, there's no reason I can't check e-mails for a few minutes. But I'm not going to trust someone like Punkbuster that could take random screenshots.
Anything to say about my other points, e.g. weakest links and Punkbuster's own failings?
just saying the majority of people suffering becuase of a minorities security issues doesnt really make sense. i use a work computer just for work - no games, for stuff that im really concerned about.
A laptop is too limited in keyboard and screen size for what I do. And as I already said, there's no reason I can't have a secure computer for doing both. Punkbuster, however, makes my system setup less secure.
Throughout all the Punkbuster threads, I've yet too see anyone make the point I have: why doesn't EA tighten up the game itself? Is it because of laziness and/or apathy that they were thinking to rely on a third-party solution, rather than keeping up with the current cheats? UOE had the infamous Uzi bows, which were fixed via the game, namely by adding the item moving delay. That's all it takes.
You realize, don't you, that something like Punkbuster cannot prevent things like duping and resource scripting that do affect the majority? Punkbuster at best would only improve the game experience for a minority.
You can be content with your own setup, and I will be with mine. The idea of Punkbuster's intrusions is simply ludicrous, even if I didn't do work, because there are other sensitive things on my computer that are none of their business.
Zog the time and resources might not be there for it. EA pulled the plug long ago on any extra spending outside of general running budget.
Plus they cut personel down every few monts to the point the Dev staff was a ghost of its former self.
I was cleaning up one of my homes and ran across the Dev roses and gifts of the past... you know... there was very few of them on todays staff list. We have had EA cut back so much in the staff its a wonder they can put out a publish at all more then 1 time a year.
The work it takes to do all they do is so under rated by we the players...
I still have no idea outside the money part of why they let Grim Omen go.
He did so much for players in the art and design even though I can unserstand a need for one in house in VA.
Still the loss to the game was felt big time.
If anything I do hope we can earn our place in Broadswords favor to get more staff and GM's on line..
Plus they cut personel down every few monts to the point the Dev staff was a ghost of its former self.
I was cleaning up one of my homes and ran across the Dev roses and gifts of the past... you know... there was very few of them on todays staff list. We have had EA cut back so much in the staff its a wonder they can put out a publish at all more then 1 time a year.
The work it takes to do all they do is so under rated by we the players...
I still have no idea outside the money part of why they let Grim Omen go.
He did so much for players in the art and design even though I can unserstand a need for one in house in VA.
Still the loss to the game was felt big time.
If anything I do hope we can earn our place in Broadswords favor to get more staff and GM's on line..
The reality is, you'll never stop cheating totally. People determined to cheat will always find a way to do so. That's just a fact of any online gaming experience these days. Most cheating in UO happens, however, because there's literally no deterrent. It's so easy to cheat with minimal chance of repercussions, and people know it. I'd wager that's why the majority started using scripts etc. to train skills and whatnot.
Making an effort to at least set up some barriers to cheating is necessary. If there was a credible chance that people's scripting programs could be detected and they could lose their 5-10 year old veteran account, I'd bet people would think a little harder about whether to use these applications. A fundamental part of that could require something like Punkbuster to scan applications in memory and whatnot and perform basic checks on the client's integrity. It's certainly not foolproof by a long shot, but it's a deterrent whose mere presence would make people think a lot harder; particularly the majority of people who do not have the technical skills necessary to even begin to attempt to try and circumvent it. Major MMOs like WoW have their own anti-cheat engine (Warden) that does similar checks.
Even without these intrusive checking utilities, it is possible to do more server-side to gather data about a player's movements, actions etc. and analyze it to determine abnormal patterns or actions that were consistently too perfect/repetitive for normal human interaction and flag them up perhaps for further observation by GMs.
Lastly, you have to ask yourself why people script. The majority probably do it to train skills and whatnot. Maybe if the skill gain system wasn't so garbage and got revised to reward players for actually playing the game normally as opposed to the most effective method to train being to cast the same spell or unpick the same lock over and over a hundred thousand times. That just inherently invites automation as its frankly boring, particularly for the 10th time.
Anyway, all of the above requires OSI/EA/Mythic/Broadsword/<insert next week's name here> to actually have an anti-cheating strategy, which they evidently don't. Dealing with cheating in UO has never been a priority. Give me GM powers for 24 hours and I could probably round up a good handful of people who are blatantly scripting which would be obvious to anyone even briefly observing them. That guy with 5 million ingots in a chest on his front step whose account has been logged in and mining for 19 hours straight probably isn't legit, you know. Who'd have thunk it? This doesn't happen anyway because there's no dedicated support staff and certainly no-one assigned to seriously investigate reports of cheating as their primary task. They pay lip service to it whenever the topic comes up with the usual "we're doing all we can to prevent cheating" etc and have done so for years, but in reality they don't care. They either don't provision the resources to address the problem due to lack of funds or they're afraid of losing too many accounts in an already low-population game. The boat sailed on this long ago, and it's not gonna change. That's the reality.
Making an effort to at least set up some barriers to cheating is necessary. If there was a credible chance that people's scripting programs could be detected and they could lose their 5-10 year old veteran account, I'd bet people would think a little harder about whether to use these applications. A fundamental part of that could require something like Punkbuster to scan applications in memory and whatnot and perform basic checks on the client's integrity. It's certainly not foolproof by a long shot, but it's a deterrent whose mere presence would make people think a lot harder; particularly the majority of people who do not have the technical skills necessary to even begin to attempt to try and circumvent it. Major MMOs like WoW have their own anti-cheat engine (Warden) that does similar checks.
Even without these intrusive checking utilities, it is possible to do more server-side to gather data about a player's movements, actions etc. and analyze it to determine abnormal patterns or actions that were consistently too perfect/repetitive for normal human interaction and flag them up perhaps for further observation by GMs.
Lastly, you have to ask yourself why people script. The majority probably do it to train skills and whatnot. Maybe if the skill gain system wasn't so garbage and got revised to reward players for actually playing the game normally as opposed to the most effective method to train being to cast the same spell or unpick the same lock over and over a hundred thousand times. That just inherently invites automation as its frankly boring, particularly for the 10th time.
Anyway, all of the above requires OSI/EA/Mythic/Broadsword/<insert next week's name here> to actually have an anti-cheating strategy, which they evidently don't. Dealing with cheating in UO has never been a priority. Give me GM powers for 24 hours and I could probably round up a good handful of people who are blatantly scripting which would be obvious to anyone even briefly observing them. That guy with 5 million ingots in a chest on his front step whose account has been logged in and mining for 19 hours straight probably isn't legit, you know. Who'd have thunk it? This doesn't happen anyway because there's no dedicated support staff and certainly no-one assigned to seriously investigate reports of cheating as their primary task. They pay lip service to it whenever the topic comes up with the usual "we're doing all we can to prevent cheating" etc and have done so for years, but in reality they don't care. They either don't provision the resources to address the problem due to lack of funds or they're afraid of losing too many accounts in an already low-population game. The boat sailed on this long ago, and it's not gonna change. That's the reality.
LOL
Do you even have the slightest idea, how many processes are running in the background or as service, which do not have a window or a systray icon?
This is the most ludicrous idea i heard for a long time...
As Spiritless said, cheating can't be stopped totally. For one, at a certain point it starts getting too expensive to deter crime, relative to benefits. The late Gary Becker was rather controversial when he first posited that the marginal cost increases exponentially as the crime level approaches zero. Even with a policeman on every street corner, or an army of 1000 GMs around the clock, there would still be some amount of wrongdoing. That segues into the second half, which is that it's very difficult to guard against unknowns, at any cost.
But there are still basic things to try, and I wonder if any of the Devs has experience like I do, which is to deliberately "break" a system to discover vulnerabilities the low-level programmers hadn't considered. There are still a couple of major problems today's Devs can work on that would do much good, but I don't see them caring before the game gets the plug pulled for good. If past Devs hadn't been so short-sighted a decade and longer ago, ignoring a lot of rampant cheating that could and should have been detected server-side, a lot of my friends wouldn't have quit for WoW and other things. I've tried getting some to return, but it's been so long that UO is a different world.
All agreed, especially this part. As I pointed out, Uzi bows were done away with because of the "You must wait to perform another action" delay, though UOE itself continued for a while longer. It shouldn't have taken much to nerf speedhacking it first started, what, a dozen years ago? A server can keep a log of a character that's moving faster than the speed cap, and repeated noticing can prompt a GM to check out the player. If a player is repeatedly recalling, lumberjacking and using a bag of sending, a GM can take a gander.
Remember the "spreadsheet" about dupers? Was that just an idle threat? At the time I didn't want to believe it was, but...
What part about EA* DONT you understand?
Crime has been around in our evolution from the dawn on man.. heck its even quoted in 99% of all religious texts...example is the story of Cain and Able. Point made ? Man if given half the chance will break rules and do wrong if they feel it nessassary for their greater good.
As for the programing, GM's did have to see the hacking in action..not that they needed a program to know it was happening. You See some fellow sued them... sooooo legal said to the Dev and GM's You must personaly witness the actions of illegal activity, or ownership. To use the powers of banning.
Oh, and Zog...
They nailed alot of players doing it.
The only thing was all they did was go restart a new account and go from there.
Many kept a side account unlinked to the offending one and could at the drop of a hat restart the same thing over and over.
* EA is the most vile contemptable rotten money grubbing nosey controlling,over bearing, sneeky, did i say rotten? well add more rotten in...
Bunch of non gammers and controll freeks is their middle name.
You expecting them to be a loveing and helpfull Grand High God ??
Give me a break kiddo....
Crime has been around in our evolution from the dawn on man.. heck its even quoted in 99% of all religious texts...example is the story of Cain and Able. Point made ? Man if given half the chance will break rules and do wrong if they feel it nessassary for their greater good.
As for the programing, GM's did have to see the hacking in action..not that they needed a program to know it was happening. You See some fellow sued them... sooooo legal said to the Dev and GM's You must personaly witness the actions of illegal activity, or ownership. To use the powers of banning.
Oh, and Zog...
They nailed alot of players doing it.
The only thing was all they did was go restart a new account and go from there.
Many kept a side account unlinked to the offending one and could at the drop of a hat restart the same thing over and over.
* EA is the most vile contemptable rotten money grubbing nosey controlling,over bearing, sneeky, did i say rotten? well add more rotten in...
Bunch of non gammers and controll freeks is their middle name.
You expecting them to be a loveing and helpfull Grand High God ??
Give me a break kiddo....
*cracks knuckles and starts typing wall of text reply*
Ok... read thru all this junk and I have a "few" comments.
1) Did anyone from ATL get to ask a question or was it anyone and everyone from every shard BUT ATL? Does no one on ATL feel slighted by that? First off they should have said "You can ask your question about XyZ shard when we come there.... NEXT!" As I thought that was what was supposed to be the thing since when some of us went to the first one of these we were told basically that we weren't going to get any questions answered and would have to wait till our turn came. Still waiting.
2) Cheating. There are a few ways this can be combated... that honestly wouldn't be that hard. First... they should code something into the game that says when an account is running basically 20 or more hours a day this is NOT humanly possible and the account should then garner further investigation. This is a simple thing to do and honestly why it's never been done is just beyond me since it's been suggested 100's of times. Really... No one can be logged in 24/7. This will quickly put a stop to the farmers, macroers and those annoying bots that go from shard to shard spamming... Secondly any way you slice it the old 2d client has the reputation of cheating... the quite illegal 3rd party program site that EVERYONE knows about has been abusing it's leaks for years... Closing the client or it's loopholes would put a stop to this. Of course this would only promote someone to jack up the EC and find a way to script that too... though I'm fairly sure folk could probably figure it out fairly quickly and be right back at it. But I'll say this the illegal bot that constantly spams and also takes note of all the stuff on vendors in Luna on every shard does so using the 2d client and the illegal 3rd party program. Common knowledge. Perhaps the steam thing would be a way to combat it ..... but that would mean that I couldn't anymore share steam with my son I'd have to get my own steam account which quite frankly I'd rather not do and I'm sure I'm not alone there.
3) F2P.... I'm so sick of hearing how this would "save" UO. At this point the ONLY thing that would save UO would be a miracle. Yes a miracle... EA would have to actually invest in UO or *gasps*.... sell it and allow someone to actually work on the game. Lets face facts here people..... Mythic..... IS BROADSWORD... Same people..... same BS still EA... Still a lazy bunch of non-communicators that have always held UO back. Nothing short of a miracle will save UO. UO needs to be brought into the millennium.... We need to get out of 1990.... People aren't going to play UO or be interested in a game with 1990's graphics... and no customer support. Yes I said it.... NO SUPPORT. First off people can't activate their old accounts 9 times out of 10... Some have tried for YEARS... why I don't know. Many got frustrated and said to H. E. Double toothpicks with this smeg... and have moved on never to darken the UO door again. Many can't get their accounts back because they can't contact customer support or they aren't willing to take 6 months of emailing back and forth and back and forth to do it and they aren't going to start all over agian.. the nostalgia is wrapped up in the account they remember..... not something new. They also want the "x" number of years they invested back... and all the perks that came with them... not to mention the squirreled away gold and other junk. Most folk that look at UO laugh ...... yep that's right.... they laugh.. the graphics are soooo horrible. Fixing the resolution will not change the fact that they are outdated. The lack of support both in game and out will keep folk from even trying UO... and at this point it is SO UTTERLY broken that ANY attempt to bring in new or old players is not only futile but actually counter productive. Anyone trying it with the state of the game right now will NOT stay. I convinced one of my old friends to return and was so happy she came back to give it a try but each time she logged in and tried doing things I kept hearing the same things over and over.... "They haven't fixed this yet? Good god it's been broke for how long? WTF how do I get my old account restarted it keeps saying it's DAoC account..... I never played DAoC!!?!?!? What happened to my account!??! I bought this code off of Origins and it keeps saying it's invalid! WTF is up with that!?!?..... Willa... this game still sucks... WTF is there to do? So... nothing is going on? Are there any quests to do? These EM events suck I don't do anything but die and lose tons of insurance and **** and I never get anything!!!!!!!!! I HATE THIS GAME! This is why I left there isn't anything to do!"
Over and over and over again you hear it from people who try to return. The same stuff repeated over and over and over. They don't like the EM events. The Governor system doesn't "do" anything.... there is nothing going on.... it's the same junk no support, no help, no quests, no major arc.... Nothing is happening. I try to explain that UO isn't a hand holding game. It doesn't "do" anything..... it is what you make it. But no most folk are used to WoW and crap like that which hold your hand and tell you what to do and when to do and what to wear and basically lead you around by the HAND. But they are right... there honestly isn't anything to do in UO if you don't RP, or sell stuff. EIther you buy and collect ****, build a pretty house and all or you RP or spend your days killing the same 10 people over and over and over again. There is NOTHING epic going on... no invasions to crush, no mysteries to solve nothing to rescue or protect... Go to the EM event once or twice a week die 10 times at each one.... and GET NOTHING. Why? Because the same 10 people will get whatever it is every time. Thank gods it's a tad more randomized... but honestly the drop rate is TOO LOW... people don't like to die over and over and over for NOTHING. Infact many folk who would have enjoyed the story behind the event can't... because too many other folk are too busy wanting the drop that they make everyone else miserable. Many folk would love events with NO FIGHTING... Some of my favorites are the mysteries and the who dunnits... that you solve at your own pace... no reward but knowing you solved the crime... Or following a list of clues and riddles and going somewhere neat using your vast knowledge of the game to find something and write up a report on it and get your name in a book somewhere in the museum is often more rewarding for a lot of players than getting killed a half a dozen or more times for nothing. If I go fighting to hunt I typically do it to GET something... Like doing Medusa to get a Slyther.... or killing Lady M to try to get a Crimmy... I sure as shoot don't do it just to hunt the thing. I think that has been forgotten.
Long ago we used to have to band together to do things. Dragons were impossible beasts and it took the entire guild of 10 or more to take one down..... this was a "challenge".... now a challenge is just not there.... anything that takes 10 people is totally NOT rewarding... Exodus was fun the first 2 or 3 times.... but after spending hours and hours gathering keys so you and your friends can go and killing him for a reward that quite frankly sucks.... the only reward worth getting there is the +5 Stat..... which I've managed to get a whole 2 times out of over 40 runs killing exodus. Not very good odds. Spend all week gathering keys to get nothing. Not very rewarding and honestly a waste of time. Rather like doing the new Despise dungeon... after 25 runs I got absolutely NOTHING. May as well farm gold and buy what I want because not going to get it from actually fighting a mob. I can understand keeping drop rates down to give folk something to do.... but honestly I don't need to die 45 times for nothing. And quite frankly most players feel the same way. UO has become a greedy soloists game. There is very little left that can occupy a guild. Hunting the same thing over and over for the same reward is also BORING.
Do I know what it would take to breathe life back into UO.... no I don't short of a miracle I just don't see it happening. EM's are great and all but it's not saving UO. It's only making more and more folk disgusted. The greed is getting out of hand. I miss the epic battles for good. I miss seeing blacksmiths at the blacksmith shop... I miss some of the simplicity... Most of all... I miss the people.
And finally.... I know I'm not alone in saying one thing that has made me hate logging in..... is being bombarded with the filth and nasty crud spewing out in General Chat day after day. I miss the Fel smack talk staying in Fel. I don't need to hear what someone did to someone elses mother or anything else... and because there is NO CUSTOMER SUPPORT ....... nothing is EVER done about it. No one monitors that crud. They can say whatever they like no matter how against the ToS it is and NOTHING happens. Sadly they know it.
Ok... read thru all this junk and I have a "few" comments.
1) Did anyone from ATL get to ask a question or was it anyone and everyone from every shard BUT ATL? Does no one on ATL feel slighted by that? First off they should have said "You can ask your question about XyZ shard when we come there.... NEXT!" As I thought that was what was supposed to be the thing since when some of us went to the first one of these we were told basically that we weren't going to get any questions answered and would have to wait till our turn came. Still waiting.
2) Cheating. There are a few ways this can be combated... that honestly wouldn't be that hard. First... they should code something into the game that says when an account is running basically 20 or more hours a day this is NOT humanly possible and the account should then garner further investigation. This is a simple thing to do and honestly why it's never been done is just beyond me since it's been suggested 100's of times. Really... No one can be logged in 24/7. This will quickly put a stop to the farmers, macroers and those annoying bots that go from shard to shard spamming... Secondly any way you slice it the old 2d client has the reputation of cheating... the quite illegal 3rd party program site that EVERYONE knows about has been abusing it's leaks for years... Closing the client or it's loopholes would put a stop to this. Of course this would only promote someone to jack up the EC and find a way to script that too... though I'm fairly sure folk could probably figure it out fairly quickly and be right back at it. But I'll say this the illegal bot that constantly spams and also takes note of all the stuff on vendors in Luna on every shard does so using the 2d client and the illegal 3rd party program. Common knowledge. Perhaps the steam thing would be a way to combat it ..... but that would mean that I couldn't anymore share steam with my son I'd have to get my own steam account which quite frankly I'd rather not do and I'm sure I'm not alone there.
3) F2P.... I'm so sick of hearing how this would "save" UO. At this point the ONLY thing that would save UO would be a miracle. Yes a miracle... EA would have to actually invest in UO or *gasps*.... sell it and allow someone to actually work on the game. Lets face facts here people..... Mythic..... IS BROADSWORD... Same people..... same BS still EA... Still a lazy bunch of non-communicators that have always held UO back. Nothing short of a miracle will save UO. UO needs to be brought into the millennium.... We need to get out of 1990.... People aren't going to play UO or be interested in a game with 1990's graphics... and no customer support. Yes I said it.... NO SUPPORT. First off people can't activate their old accounts 9 times out of 10... Some have tried for YEARS... why I don't know. Many got frustrated and said to H. E. Double toothpicks with this smeg... and have moved on never to darken the UO door again. Many can't get their accounts back because they can't contact customer support or they aren't willing to take 6 months of emailing back and forth and back and forth to do it and they aren't going to start all over agian.. the nostalgia is wrapped up in the account they remember..... not something new. They also want the "x" number of years they invested back... and all the perks that came with them... not to mention the squirreled away gold and other junk. Most folk that look at UO laugh ...... yep that's right.... they laugh.. the graphics are soooo horrible. Fixing the resolution will not change the fact that they are outdated. The lack of support both in game and out will keep folk from even trying UO... and at this point it is SO UTTERLY broken that ANY attempt to bring in new or old players is not only futile but actually counter productive. Anyone trying it with the state of the game right now will NOT stay. I convinced one of my old friends to return and was so happy she came back to give it a try but each time she logged in and tried doing things I kept hearing the same things over and over.... "They haven't fixed this yet? Good god it's been broke for how long? WTF how do I get my old account restarted it keeps saying it's DAoC account..... I never played DAoC!!?!?!? What happened to my account!??! I bought this code off of Origins and it keeps saying it's invalid! WTF is up with that!?!?..... Willa... this game still sucks... WTF is there to do? So... nothing is going on? Are there any quests to do? These EM events suck I don't do anything but die and lose tons of insurance and **** and I never get anything!!!!!!!!! I HATE THIS GAME! This is why I left there isn't anything to do!"
Over and over and over again you hear it from people who try to return. The same stuff repeated over and over and over. They don't like the EM events. The Governor system doesn't "do" anything.... there is nothing going on.... it's the same junk no support, no help, no quests, no major arc.... Nothing is happening. I try to explain that UO isn't a hand holding game. It doesn't "do" anything..... it is what you make it. But no most folk are used to WoW and crap like that which hold your hand and tell you what to do and when to do and what to wear and basically lead you around by the HAND. But they are right... there honestly isn't anything to do in UO if you don't RP, or sell stuff. EIther you buy and collect ****, build a pretty house and all or you RP or spend your days killing the same 10 people over and over and over again. There is NOTHING epic going on... no invasions to crush, no mysteries to solve nothing to rescue or protect... Go to the EM event once or twice a week die 10 times at each one.... and GET NOTHING. Why? Because the same 10 people will get whatever it is every time. Thank gods it's a tad more randomized... but honestly the drop rate is TOO LOW... people don't like to die over and over and over for NOTHING. Infact many folk who would have enjoyed the story behind the event can't... because too many other folk are too busy wanting the drop that they make everyone else miserable. Many folk would love events with NO FIGHTING... Some of my favorites are the mysteries and the who dunnits... that you solve at your own pace... no reward but knowing you solved the crime... Or following a list of clues and riddles and going somewhere neat using your vast knowledge of the game to find something and write up a report on it and get your name in a book somewhere in the museum is often more rewarding for a lot of players than getting killed a half a dozen or more times for nothing. If I go fighting to hunt I typically do it to GET something... Like doing Medusa to get a Slyther.... or killing Lady M to try to get a Crimmy... I sure as shoot don't do it just to hunt the thing. I think that has been forgotten.
Long ago we used to have to band together to do things. Dragons were impossible beasts and it took the entire guild of 10 or more to take one down..... this was a "challenge".... now a challenge is just not there.... anything that takes 10 people is totally NOT rewarding... Exodus was fun the first 2 or 3 times.... but after spending hours and hours gathering keys so you and your friends can go and killing him for a reward that quite frankly sucks.... the only reward worth getting there is the +5 Stat..... which I've managed to get a whole 2 times out of over 40 runs killing exodus. Not very good odds. Spend all week gathering keys to get nothing. Not very rewarding and honestly a waste of time. Rather like doing the new Despise dungeon... after 25 runs I got absolutely NOTHING. May as well farm gold and buy what I want because not going to get it from actually fighting a mob. I can understand keeping drop rates down to give folk something to do.... but honestly I don't need to die 45 times for nothing. And quite frankly most players feel the same way. UO has become a greedy soloists game. There is very little left that can occupy a guild. Hunting the same thing over and over for the same reward is also BORING.
Do I know what it would take to breathe life back into UO.... no I don't short of a miracle I just don't see it happening. EM's are great and all but it's not saving UO. It's only making more and more folk disgusted. The greed is getting out of hand. I miss the epic battles for good. I miss seeing blacksmiths at the blacksmith shop... I miss some of the simplicity... Most of all... I miss the people.
And finally.... I know I'm not alone in saying one thing that has made me hate logging in..... is being bombarded with the filth and nasty crud spewing out in General Chat day after day. I miss the Fel smack talk staying in Fel. I don't need to hear what someone did to someone elses mother or anything else... and because there is NO CUSTOMER SUPPORT ....... nothing is EVER done about it. No one monitors that crud. They can say whatever they like no matter how against the ToS it is and NOTHING happens. Sadly they know it.
Some cheats are harder to deal with than others, no doubt about that.
But when an illegal activity is so open and obvious as the one on Oceania, you gotta wonder why that particular issue isn´t dealt with. He´s still down there right now.
I think many of us remember the Painted Caves ladies that farmed the troglodytes for gold on both facets (and on multiple shards simultaneously if I remember correctly). 23 hours a day, running the same pattern in and out every time. Another case of an open and obvious illegal activity and yet they were in business for months if not longer.
*shakes head*
But when an illegal activity is so open and obvious as the one on Oceania, you gotta wonder why that particular issue isn´t dealt with. He´s still down there right now.
I think many of us remember the Painted Caves ladies that farmed the troglodytes for gold on both facets (and on multiple shards simultaneously if I remember correctly). 23 hours a day, running the same pattern in and out every time. Another case of an open and obvious illegal activity and yet they were in business for months if not longer.
*shakes head*
kelmo
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... most people whining about Punkbuster probably have a lot worse installed on their comps right now.
I know right? *waves at the NSA*
Who sued? The ToS since UO began gave no such legal recourse, and any competent judge would throw out the complaint. Some dupers were banned because they were caught by other means, not a GM's observation.
It's a given that law enforcement must be obliged to follow certain rules, lest corruption cause them to harass people unfairly. However, since my first encounter with a major exploiter 16 years ago, GMs weren't interested even when they had greater numbers, no matter that a cheater was in flagrante delicto. I was threatened with a ban if I persisted in paging, no matter that such and such a guy was doing the most egregious exploits around.
Yes, and it shows EA didn't know enough to block someone based on name, billing address or IP. If anything, just keep banning quickly to make it too much trouble for exploiters to return. Remember the guild whose dirtnaps, I mean, adventures, my name shows I caused, I mean, chronicled? He got banned once too often from UO and finally gave up. As I recall, the same thing happened with his forum appearances.
"Expect" — no. "Believe that they should strive to be" — yes.
As far as your description of "most," I can personally assure you that there have been worse. Among other bad situations, I was once a contractor for WorldCom during Uncle Bernie's heyday.
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
Let 'em stew on that.
Certain corporations spy for marketing purposes and what-not, but as far as what my computer sets out, it isn't hard to know precisely what it's doing.
Ha, those people. Wasn't even just Painted Caves, they were at the Crystal Daemons and the Fan Dancer Dojo all at the same time that I remember. I'm sure there were more locations I forgot about.
Ah yes. Now that you mentioned it, it was at the Ice fiends as well.
Zog I have no clue as to the idenity of the party that did it. I know of it by the conversations with the powers that were at the time running the show. I know not of whom ever it was did so but rules were changed by the legal department...
AS for the bannings, they did take and block name, address, CC, and ip.
AS for the IP... They did have a issue and had to back track some on this one as some of the old cable company links to the web gave some citys the same ip... so if you were in same ip addy ... no UO. It didnt make the news but people did have issue about it. So EA relented and backed up on ip. That was then. Now... ip is like a personal thing... less invasive on others.
Sweety I do not expect jack from the EA board, their staff or any enity they hold in power.
One would wish for a kinder company but you know greed well...
Bernie said if given the chance to do it again he would and this time he would avoid being caught.
Kelmo.......
I...
See.........
You.................
NSA has nada over my crystal ball.... hehehe
AS for the bannings, they did take and block name, address, CC, and ip.
AS for the IP... They did have a issue and had to back track some on this one as some of the old cable company links to the web gave some citys the same ip... so if you were in same ip addy ... no UO. It didnt make the news but people did have issue about it. So EA relented and backed up on ip. That was then. Now... ip is like a personal thing... less invasive on others.
Sweety I do not expect jack from the EA board, their staff or any enity they hold in power.
One would wish for a kinder company but you know greed well...
Bernie said if given the chance to do it again he would and this time he would avoid being caught.
Kelmo.......
I...
See.........
You.................
NSA has nada over my crystal ball.... hehehe
Someone may have filed a lawsuit, but it should not have gone anywhere. I can't judge whether it was deserved or mistaken, but even a mistaken ban has no legal recourse. UO's ToS are pretty clear, and it's very similar wording for other games, because any company offering such a product needs to protect itself. They have the final say, not a player, not a judge or jury. "Electronic Arts reserves the right to terminate your Membership if it determines in its sole discretion that you have engaged in any impermissible conduct whether or not such conduct violates the Rules of Conduct." The common phrase "reserves the right" is extremely important in its implication. Like Jefferson's "We hold these truths to be self-evident," the phrasing indicates existence prior to the document. Whether we like EA or not, it's their ballpark, and they don't even have to watch someone to hit him with a ban hammer.
Yes, eventually someone may run into the same IP, but UO at its subscription peak was a fraction of a percent of any region's population. Today, it's even more rare that someone will create a new account and happen to have the same IP as someone recently banned, just like it's rare that someone with no stake in a company should suddenly buy a lot of call options just before a tender offer. Each situation is improbable enough to be worth a look by a human, and in UO, a follow-up a few weeks later can see character and guild names. I know for a fact that that, um, "one person" was able to come back with ease. Do you remember that every time he'd choose that infamous name, and make a guild with that abbreviation?
I don't expect EA to be perfect, but a little effort can go a long way. "Player happiness in a years-old online game," though, isn't the biggest of their business model, and their profit is principally coming from other things. And as far as Uncle Bernie, I don't recall that exact phrase, but it was no doubt prior to his conviction.
Yes, eventually someone may run into the same IP, but UO at its subscription peak was a fraction of a percent of any region's population. Today, it's even more rare that someone will create a new account and happen to have the same IP as someone recently banned, just like it's rare that someone with no stake in a company should suddenly buy a lot of call options just before a tender offer. Each situation is improbable enough to be worth a look by a human, and in UO, a follow-up a few weeks later can see character and guild names. I know for a fact that that, um, "one person" was able to come back with ease. Do you remember that every time he'd choose that infamous name, and make a guild with that abbreviation?
I don't expect EA to be perfect, but a little effort can go a long way. "Player happiness in a years-old online game," though, isn't the biggest of their business model, and their profit is principally coming from other things. And as far as Uncle Bernie, I don't recall that exact phrase, but it was no doubt prior to his conviction.
Zog one of the things about UO that was different from most other games was the fact you could name your character anything.
I have seen countless copycats.
Unlike wow where the name is set in stone and no one shall covet thy neighbors name bit is in full force.
One of the ways we here in UO can id who is who is the game character id code, but if an account is baned.
They get a new account which blows that out of the water.
Name?
Then you might have a international furror as I have run into a guild where all members name is BOB.
IP?
What do you do if people in the same building in say New York play UO and have the same IP.. Time Warner has a habit of giving 1 ip to cover a building or area.
Oh, and not many know the ways of changing their ip address at the box lvl.
Ok where does that leave us?
Mimicry is the cincere form of flatery or making fun of.............
I know of a guy who on an east coast shard who for over 2 years copyed name and dress of one of the local players who he had a dislike of.
Every character was copyed down to the jewlery, name, and manerizems of said subject. Each character!
I can tell you the fights that happened were comical and hurtfull. GM's could do nada.
So look and actions can and do get mimiced.
Now you tell me how do we really know if it is actualy them?
Kids have started accounts with names on the id page such as Mickey Mouse, with a fake addy, phone and phony CC data on the 30 day accounts.
I know of a few Aussie kids who did it to their paid for accounts... which is not hard with game time cards.
Both have lost on many accounts too because they forgot what names and info they used!
Silly.. yes
But when you put privacy paramount... its priceless.
SO Zog
How do you do it.... please tell me and the Dev.
Remember one thing kiddo.
Everyone is inocent till proven guilty. (unless your in europe then its reversed)
I have seen countless copycats.
Unlike wow where the name is set in stone and no one shall covet thy neighbors name bit is in full force.
One of the ways we here in UO can id who is who is the game character id code, but if an account is baned.
They get a new account which blows that out of the water.
Name?
Then you might have a international furror as I have run into a guild where all members name is BOB.
IP?
What do you do if people in the same building in say New York play UO and have the same IP.. Time Warner has a habit of giving 1 ip to cover a building or area.
Oh, and not many know the ways of changing their ip address at the box lvl.
Ok where does that leave us?
Mimicry is the cincere form of flatery or making fun of.............
I know of a guy who on an east coast shard who for over 2 years copyed name and dress of one of the local players who he had a dislike of.
Every character was copyed down to the jewlery, name, and manerizems of said subject. Each character!
I can tell you the fights that happened were comical and hurtfull. GM's could do nada.
So look and actions can and do get mimiced.
Now you tell me how do we really know if it is actualy them?
Kids have started accounts with names on the id page such as Mickey Mouse, with a fake addy, phone and phony CC data on the 30 day accounts.
I know of a few Aussie kids who did it to their paid for accounts... which is not hard with game time cards.
Both have lost on many accounts too because they forgot what names and info they used!
Silly.. yes
But when you put privacy paramount... its priceless.
SO Zog
How do you do it.... please tell me and the Dev.
Remember one thing kiddo.
Everyone is inocent till proven guilty. (unless your in europe then its reversed)
OK, that clarifies things. Legally, EA still had every right to not believe anyone. They could be pressed to refund an unused game time card, but they don't have to accept someone's login or account creation.
In such a group setting, because of a common IP or perhaps a few common IPs from a school, a game company could well ban the whole group. It would have to be something egregious, like duping by a few different accounts with a few different billing names at the same location. EA's been known to take drastic actions against an entire group, though, like the MDK guild of years ago, and they were geographically dispersed.
I remember a few guilds over the years that have been mass banned.
Infact a member of a guild who had not played for a year prior to the whole guild being banned had been banned instantly apon logging in.
It took him alot of hastle to prove he was not involved and had not played and had no knowlage of said activitys.
Infact a member of a guild who had not played for a year prior to the whole guild being banned had been banned instantly apon logging in.
It took him alot of hastle to prove he was not involved and had not played and had no knowlage of said activitys.
It was definitely the same guy. Same scams, same racist slurs, same general "attitude" (to put it mildly). And why would anyone copy the name and guild, anyway, with the great possibility of getting banned again? Yes, there are ways around getting banned which I did not want to get into, but some people are so obvious about who they are.
If an account using a game time card got banned, I would also ban other accounts using that billing information, and any accounts using game time cards with that billing information. The lesson, with a strong forewarning, would be to take care when paying for friends' accounts and/or buying GTCs for friends, lest you get banned along with them. From EA's perspective, how do they know that Jim isn't assisting his friend Bob in exploits or at least benefiting from what Bob does? How do they know Jim and Bob aren't the same person? If they faxed in their driver's licenses, how would they know Jim hasn't been the only player, and he was using his friend Bob's name and got Bob to help him out? Oh yes, I'm extraordinarily suspicious, and it's been my profession to be.
Realize that even in the U.S., presumption of innocence is only for criminal courts. A private company is not required to abide by that. In right-to-work situations, an employer has every right to fire someone for suspected stealing (or any/no reason). EA has specifically reserved its right to close an account ("ban") at "its sole discretion," and it's a stipulation that all players must accept in order to play. These two are purely civil matters, and as I've pointed out, the latter has no legal recourse.
Zog
I dont know if you have tried to get a GM of late but it is a pain in the arse and 9 chances out of 10 you dont get any reply or even a que notification.
Weekends and hollidays are the pits and weekdays you might get one... maybe..
Years past the Dev and GM's did their best to clean up to scamming , cheaters, and outright bad blood that ran in UO.
I dont doubt there was a guy who dared the Dev and GM's to catch him and do their job... I have seen and jailed a few myself.
Along with a ton of unsavory ilk, we have had every bad element in game and I must say when pointed out the Staff of the game have swiftly come to the spot and thrown them out of game.
I understand your ire, dont get me wrong.
I have and do keep my ear and eyes on the game as a whole.
No game is free of this..
The numbers of the captured and removed is not known but I can atest its not a small number by far!
So please dont think the party's are getting away with it and scott free.
Remember the Rule is a GM MUST SEE the OFFENCE in order to do anything.. word of mouth is hersay...
This is not the Dev's point of law but the EA Legal Department.
Hands are tied to this if they cant see it done... Game logs help.. But the physical act of a GM or Dev seeing this is needed.
I will say one thing to perhaps get this in perspective.
As a concerned player and at the time Counselor of the game I have helped the GM's catch these players in action..
I wont go into any detail, but say this...
To the Best of my knowlage of the GM's and the Staff of our game... priority 1 was keeping the game clean of the bad element.
They do what they can with what they have.
I dont know if you have tried to get a GM of late but it is a pain in the arse and 9 chances out of 10 you dont get any reply or even a que notification.
Weekends and hollidays are the pits and weekdays you might get one... maybe..
Years past the Dev and GM's did their best to clean up to scamming , cheaters, and outright bad blood that ran in UO.
I dont doubt there was a guy who dared the Dev and GM's to catch him and do their job... I have seen and jailed a few myself.
Along with a ton of unsavory ilk, we have had every bad element in game and I must say when pointed out the Staff of the game have swiftly come to the spot and thrown them out of game.
I understand your ire, dont get me wrong.
I have and do keep my ear and eyes on the game as a whole.
No game is free of this..
The numbers of the captured and removed is not known but I can atest its not a small number by far!
So please dont think the party's are getting away with it and scott free.
Remember the Rule is a GM MUST SEE the OFFENCE in order to do anything.. word of mouth is hersay...
This is not the Dev's point of law but the EA Legal Department.
Hands are tied to this if they cant see it done... Game logs help.. But the physical act of a GM or Dev seeing this is needed.
I will say one thing to perhaps get this in perspective.
As a concerned player and at the time Counselor of the game I have helped the GM's catch these players in action..
I wont go into any detail, but say this...
To the Best of my knowlage of the GM's and the Staff of our game... priority 1 was keeping the game clean of the bad element.
They do what they can with what they have.
So You're the one that hacked me!!!
Yes, I am aware of the long wait times for GMs. But that does not have any bearing on the general principle of enforcement.
I don't know where you got that I "think the party's are getting with it and scott free." I of all people know that some are caught, some are not. I saw someone throughout 1998 get away with exploit after exploit (when there were a lot more GMs), and in times of reduced staff, I saw a couple of people perma-banned for words they shouldn't have used.
And where is this stated formally? That's just someone's opinion of guidelines, which changes with the wind. The ToS is the only document that matters, and it gives EA full rights to ban who they want, for any reason. EA isn't stupid, and it's not going to tie its own hands by giving exploiters a "But you didn't see me!" loophole. If you recall, MDK was technically not doing anything outside of the rules, but EA decided they were not worth keeping around, and nobody missed them. Similarly, that group of dupers several years ago weren't caught because of observation.
"Point of law" doesn't apply here, nothing personal. It's a matter of EA's internal policies, not laws. I'm just a stickler for precision in terms.
Ppffft Albino midget hermophrodite porn is nothing at the time I had an extremly blur picture of Bill Gates, Donald Trump and Bill Clinton running naked in the forest resembling Big Foot wich made me realize that Big foot does not exist but Bill Gates does!!!!!!
I...don't even have words.
In any case, if Broadsword needs someone to kill UO, they can hire Popps.
Didnt I read somewhere once that everytime UO patches (maybe not everytime but when a patch changes certain gamefiles) then the scripts stop working and the scripters have tp rewrite the scripting programs to work with the updated client? They are usually back up and running within a day or too. One suggestion is a small daily patch to UO to render the scripting programs incompatible with the new version and requiring re programming by the scripters. Daily!
However another thing to consider is if EA/Mythic/Broadsword really want to get rid of scripting. They are aware of the scale of the [roblem and have been for years. They also realise that scripting on such a large scale means x number od paying accounts belong to scripters. Removing those accounts entirely would be a big dent in UO subscriptions which the game can ill afford. Sure every few years EA will make a big show of banning a few players and bragging about the billions of duped gold and items removed from the game but its a drop in the ocean and happens far too infrequently. UO doesnt have enough resources devoted to it to tackle scripting and truth be told I dont think they really want to tackle it as banned accounts on that scale = lost dollars.
However another thing to consider is if EA/Mythic/Broadsword really want to get rid of scripting. They are aware of the scale of the [roblem and have been for years. They also realise that scripting on such a large scale means x number od paying accounts belong to scripters. Removing those accounts entirely would be a big dent in UO subscriptions which the game can ill afford. Sure every few years EA will make a big show of banning a few players and bragging about the billions of duped gold and items removed from the game but its a drop in the ocean and happens far too infrequently. UO doesnt have enough resources devoted to it to tackle scripting and truth be told I dont think they really want to tackle it as banned accounts on that scale = lost dollars.
They dont. its the backwards logic the devs use for alot of things in UO. the "safe" money that they have now from current subs, vrs the potential money they could make with ceratain changes. they value the 1 current scriptor account more than the 10 that have quit uo becuase of prolems arising from it.
It was welcome news in late 1998 when the data stream was changed to prevent UOE from working, but it was short-lived. It came back once its creators figured things out. And they certainly weren't helped like Tug has been in figuring out the new data stream.
Lol, call her a grouchy Drow if you want, but I can't disagree with any of this great wall of text