Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly items

[Fayled Dhreams]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Sometimes a game is just a game.

Actually chad ... *ahem*

the game remains a game >in spite< of how some people want to make a "God told me in game" RELIGION out of it ...

Shocked ! Shocked I SAY! that some one not only STOLE a pixel from another ...
but had the poor taste to virtually rub their noses in it ?!?

What Would Walt Disney do?



Where are the Chucky Cheese police?
The Pixel Patrol?

You don't honestly think that >I believe< that this is an adult discussion ... do you?

cause ...

this is no more than : "dad!? he took my sand !!!" sandbox type talk ...

Fair enough?

 

[Basara]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Woodsman: It's the quiet ones you have to watch out for.

How I would have handled the transaction in question, as seller.

1. arrange that the buyer has a pass-sign, and an obviously recognizable character.
2. arrange to meet them at some out of the way place, and NEVER use such a place twice. Hell, the passcodes could be as simple as a couple key phrases used as ship names, and meeting in the open ocean at pre-determined coordinates. Seller will polymorph or disguise kit (and remove guild tags) after the confirmation of IDs, but before gating/recalling both to the house, so that there would be no easy way for someone to realize that the seller is even involved in the transaction.
3. have a house set up for the trade, that's not my normal house. Best would be using an account that has no house, and build it specifically for the deal. Mark a rune for the buyer, so they can return (not using gate) after transferring each 100 million in the transaction to their bank (and use an obscure bank somewhere (hell, even running to an Ilshenar gypsy camp would give privacy). Also, give them a minor item to wear (say, a CBD-blessed exceptional, maker's-marked, doublet underneath their robe, with a unique name on it - not that hard to do with multiple accounts, 6-7 characters each, and soulstones) that they have to wear as an identifier. They remove the robe long enough to expose the identifying item as needed. NOT concealing it under the robes when making round trips to get money can be grounds for calling the deal off.
4. Have a bunch of rental vendors for the real seller disguised as BOD storage vendors set up.
5. Have one BOD priced for 100 million for each 100 million in the deal (except the last bit), near the end of the book(s), with several other books. Each BOD would be the same count, quality, material and size (junk LBODs, anyone?), and the only ones of those types on the vendor(s). ONLY the ORIGINAL known character will be allowed to buy the last transaction of the deal.
6. After all but the last 100 million or less is transferred via vendor purchases, the last purchase is of the item itself, through another proxy item, handed over, again, with the countersign item shown and the original countersign uttered.
7. After the last purchase is done, and the item changed hands, the buyer leaves, the seller then starts retrieving the money. Once all the checks are retrieved, the vendors are emptied, the vendors are dropped, then the temporary house is dropped as well. IF the rendezvous at sea version is used, the access to the ship is wiped, and the ship immediately renamed.


Simpler than it sounds, and a lot more secure.

 

[Yenji Yasagari]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

I would like to point out something. I have NOTHING AGAINST Europa Trader. He was chosen as my mark for a few reasons.

1. He obviously had the biggest loot of anyone.
2. His profile/suit was the easiest to clone.
3. The steal could become a symbol for something bigger if I succeeded.

Saying I did this out of spite for the guy is the most overkill statement of the century.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Woodsman: It's the quiet ones you have to watch out for.

How I would have handled the transaction in question, as seller.

1. arrange that the buyer has a pass-sign, and an obviously recognizable character.
2. arrange to meet them at some out of the way place, and NEVER use such a place twice. Hell, the passcodes could be as simple as a couple key phrases used as ship names, and meeting in the open ocean at pre-determined coordinates. Seller will polymorph or disguise kit (and remove guild tags) after the confirmation of IDs, but before gating/recalling both to the house, so that there would be no easy way for someone to realize that the seller is even involved in the transaction.
3. have a house set up for the trade, that's not my normal house. Best would be using an account that has no house, and build it specifically for the deal. Mark a rune for the buyer, so they can return (not using gate) after transferring each 100 million in the transaction to their bank (and use an obscure bank somewhere (hell, even running to an Ilshenar gypsy camp would give privacy). Also, give them a minor item to wear (say, a CBD-blessed exceptional, maker's-marked, doublet underneath their robe, with a unique name on it - not that hard to do with multiple accounts, 6-7 characters each, and soulstones) that they have to wear as an identifier. They remove the robe long enough to expose the identifying item as needed. NOT concealing it under the robes when making round trips to get money can be grounds for calling the deal off.
4. Have a bunch of rental vendors for the real seller disguised as BOD storage vendors set up.
5. Have one BOD priced for 100 million for each 100 million in the deal (except the last bit), near the end of the book(s), with several other books. Each BOD would be the same count, quality, material and size (junk LBODs, anyone?), and the only ones of those types on the vendor(s). ONLY the ORIGINAL known character will be allowed to buy the last transaction of the deal.
6. After all but the last 100 million or less is transferred via vendor purchases, the last purchase is of the item itself, through another proxy item, handed over, again, with the countersign item shown and the original countersign uttered.
7. After the last purchase is done, and the item changed hands, the buyer leaves, the seller then starts retrieving the money. Once all the checks are retrieved, the vendors are emptied, the vendors are dropped, then the temporary house is dropped as well. IF the rendezvous at sea version is used, the access to the ship is wiped, and the ship immediately renamed.


Simpler than it sounds, and a lot more secure.

Good idea but its a lot of work. I dont get the uber rare thing for things that are named and hued. Or need to have elaborate ways to sell 1 billion gold items. Nothing is rare in UO and can be re-released in a second.


I have 3 sets of double stacked mondain coins from like 6 years ago when I live on Origin. During a publish coins, anniversary coins, got stuck in packs and lock downs disappeared. For 1 day mondain coins stacked. I sold 1 stack back then for 40 million. Only 4 set exists. RARE? you tell me.

I also have a gypsy moonstone ring on atlantic. The one you get by killing gypsys. As far as I know Im the only one with one thus far. And I think gypsys stopped spawning.

My point. Are they rare? Are the worth 100 million, 200 million...

I don't think so. The are collecting dust. There are a bizzillion EM items out there now. What is the big deal?

Im sorry a player came up in disguise and got your item. I wouldnt do it. But is this really a need for 100 million gold checks. Anything that happens is game is part of the game. Sorry.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

And I have to confess back in the day... I did kill a few key carriers and looted their homes. I sometimes looked like a new player only to jump them on their porch...

I added a guy to my guild and after 2 weeks playing with him, he said... why don't you bring your valorite axe of... Back then it was a big deal. He promptly watched me get beat down and flamed me and took my stuff.


Is that really any different? If it was real life cash and charge backs and all that crap... Id be more sympathetic.

Oh and the best... My vendor dropped once for some reason and the gold checks went to my bank box... It put me way over the limit. When I opened the bank box frantic but found my checks were there... I accidentally click on a box in my bank and moved it.. well it promptly fell to the bank floor and it had over 100 million in ingredients and crap. Everyone in the bank swarmed and stole it... When I kindly asked for it back... They all recalled away.

Now on another note. Yesterday I was dropping runes and some guy would pick them up and trash them. I paged on him for harassment and he disappeared.

 

[Demonous]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Pay to transfer the account. I'd much rather see the dev team spend time working on bugs and content than protecting a bunch of items. The value of these items are only in the beholder and not based upon much more then 5 people throwing numbers into the air.

There is a fairly secure way of doing this transaction in that you can place 12 items on a vendor for 100 mil a pop and as two get purchased you trade off 1 item from this suit but again the value is subjective.

And, like the last time the rare item traders got burnt, it was a case of human error. As much as it's a bummer to the loser of the item(who seems to have been made whole and they were trying to sell it anyways so no real harm done) I have to say a job well done to the people whom set this "theft" up. It might have been cheesy, scummy, mean and any other words you want to use but really wtf was the auctioneer doing just giving these items out with out some type of check and balance? Foolish I'd say. Thankfully these people would not accept my items for sale, they might get "lost"...

it wasnt a theft, it was a scam, HUGE difference, stealing requires the use of the skill stealing, scamming is just wrong and was once actioned against by GMs years ago

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

thread is starting to make sense...

 

[Zosimus]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

There are ways to handle this situation. If such an item is really worth that much gold in a game there is no excuse for the seller and the auction house to go to a little trouble for some better security measures.


Possible Security Measures

Make sure the owner of the item(s) have an icq, email, vent, and skype.

The owner has 4 ways to confirm their identity to the auction house.

The auction house must have the owner of the items to verify themseleves by being on icq sending a message, sending an email, get in the auction house's vent, and use skype.

The auction house would have to provide a vent they can actually assign the password for the owner of the item(s).

Before the transaction to sell the owner item(s) they must do these 4 things so the auction house can have all the info and can actually physically identify that person by skype.

*If the owner of the item(s) does not want to follow such security measures then the auction house can.....

A) Continue to allow the item to be sold but the auction house will not be held liable or faulted for any wrong if something happens to the item under false pretenses.

B) The auction house can refuse to do any business with the owner until they follow the procedure that protects both parties from any wrong doing.
C) Is for cya and hope things work out for the owner if they don't want to follow such a procedure at all.

*If the auction house fails to follow the security procedure and the owner's item(s) were lost by fault of the auction house....

A) The auction house is held 100% responsible for the loss and will pay the worth of the item(s)



For anybody just impersonating trying to steal any item they must have all the info of above and actually physically look like the person on top of it to steal it.

 

[Demonous]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

a great job. thoughtfully planned out. that the pieces are distributed to those who spent the most time in a tough profession was fitting as well as was each being worked into their suits.

Epic. Salute

why are you praising the guy for something illegal that he accomplished? remember GMs used to suspend and ban people for scamming, i dunno why this stopped, I admit it was a very stupid mistake on my behalf, that being said I dunno how someone could do something like that and not feel remorse, I used to play my thief 24/7 years ago i would steal from people with the stealing skill which they suspected, i didn't disguise myself as someone else and pull a scam

(only the first paragraph is for you longshanks)

very low, from a thief's perspective I have zero respect for what you did, very low and shady, Shinobi should be disgraced by your actions, people work hard to get rares and they are worth a lot, taking them from someone is as low as it gets, also i still don't believe u did it hoodwink cause u were there on your hoodwink character having a conversation the whole time so someone else played the europa trader character

and don't give me the whole its just a game nonsense, a game has a beginning and an end, you wouldn't keep paying to play if this was "just a game" things in UO have real life value which is the difference between just a game, so essentially something of a lot of real life value was stollen

Normal people show compassion to others, not scam them and take their stuff and feel proud about it, being a con artist is highly illegal irl and from the way you talk and act and are super crazy into your little thief roleplaying which i can tell by your posts (which is beyond lame by the way) I wouldn't be surprised if you con people irl

On the higher scale, you stole 1 item from a house full of over 100, good luck ever getting anything again from there, may something horrible happen to you in life

 

[Woodsman]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

and don't give me the whole its just a game nonsense, a game has a beginning and an end, you wouldn't keep paying to play if this was "just a game" things in UO have real life value which is the difference between just a game, so essentially something of a lot of real life value was stollen

Regardless of how much of a difference there may or may not be of somebody with the skill to steal something out of your pack in the days before Tram oe insurance when a lot of people had no defense against thieves, or masquerading as somebody else now, these things aren't supposed to have a real life value. EA has been actively discouraging out-of-game trading which removes that real-life value.

 

[wanderer1origin]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

wait, what ??
he gave items away! showing possible true value, and u are wishing rl harm to him over pixels in a game!
lol i think he won uo and you lost!!!!!!!!!
you got tricked lol so, is that any different from having house key stolen taken from in beginning of game.

you got tricked shown for a tool/fool but life goes on!!!!!!!!!

why are you praising the guy for something illegal that he accomplished? remember GMs used to suspend and ban people for scamming, i dunno why this stopped, I admit it was a very stupid mistake on my behalf, that being said I dunno how someone could do something like that and not feel remorse, I used to play my thief 24/7 years ago i would steal from people with the stealing skill which they suspected, i didn't disguise myself as someone else and pull a scam

(only the first paragraph is for you longshanks)

very low, from a thief's perspective I have zero respect for what you did, very low and shady, Shinobi should be disgraced by your actions, people work hard to get rares and they are worth a lot, taking them from someone is as low as it gets, also i still don't believe u did it hoodwink cause u were there on your hoodwink character having a conversation the whole time so someone else played the europa trader character

and don't give me the whole its just a game nonsense, a game has a beginning and an end, you wouldn't keep paying to play if this was "just a game" things in UO have real life value which is the difference between just a game, so essentially something of a lot of real life value was stollen

Normal people show compassion to others, not scam them and take their stuff and feel proud about it, being a con artist is highly illegal irl and from the way you talk and act and are super crazy into your little thief roleplaying which i can tell by your posts (which is beyond lame by the way) I wouldn't be surprised if you con people irl

On the higher scale, you stole 1 item from a house full of over 100, good luck ever getting anything again from there, may something horrible happen to you in life

 

[ACB1961]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Im sorry I am against it.

Duping of 1 million checks lead to this ridiculous amount of gold in the game.

Bigger checks mean risk of duping a 100 million gold check.

If they could figure out how to move the gold in a way that couldnt be duped, that be fine.

bank drafts

wow that was easy

 

[Chad Sexington]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

and don't give me the whole its just a game nonsense, a game has a beginning and an end, you wouldn't keep paying to play if this was "just a game" things in UO have real life value which is the difference between just a game, so essentially something of a lot of real life value was stollen

I had nothing to do with the scam, but I made the comment about it being just a game so I'll respond:

"You wouldn't keep paying to play if this was 'just a game'..."

I actually don't know where to start.

Yes, I would?

I mean, the game begins when you log on and it ends when you log off. If people choose to mix real life with in-game life, they do so knowingly, and assume all the risk that comes with it.

I've never been known as a scammer. I prefer not to steal that way. And I'll be first in line to call this a scam in addition to being a theft. But there's a big difference between scamming and hacking or doing something that breaks the game mechanics. This was just an in-game scam and nothing more.

 

[georox]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

why are you praising the guy for something illegal that he accomplished? remember GMs used to suspend and ban people for scamming, i dunno why this stopped, I admit it was a very stupid mistake on my behalf, that being said I dunno how someone could do something like that and not feel remorse, I used to play my thief 24/7 years ago i would steal from people with the stealing skill which they suspected, i didn't disguise myself as someone else and pull a scam

Making a character named after someone else is extremely low, even I will agree to that. Although, I will admit it was extremely fun back in the day to use a disguise kit and people are none the wiser of who did something

being a con artist is highly illegal irl and from the way you talk and act and are super crazy into your little thief roleplaying which i can tell by your posts (which is beyond lame by the way) I wouldn't be surprised if you con people irl

So is murdering people, so should we remove all of PvP? Anyways, the game is about fantasy. People do things they normally wouldn't/couldn't do in real life most of the time. If anything I would think he just wants to give strangers a hard time because of possibly having a bad experience at some point in life, be it a terrible job at some point (retail/food service?) or ever going to a public school, or hell, it could just be "for the lulz" as so many put things these days. Nothing that I've seen in his posts really suggests con-artist though, and in my eyes your post is cutting it extremely close to a personal attack which is rather tasteless.

 

[the 4th man]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Welp......I have seen UO's economy go from "not bad" to down right pathetic joke.

UO is a computer game. To spend real life money for fake gold?? Why not hang a sign on your back that says jackass.

Thus, being a game, it has it's rules and terms. Impersonating another player isn't breaking the rules......they got conned, a sting if you will. Some yo-yo took a chance and pulled it off.

Bigger checks?? No, lower the value of your pixels......as one player put it.....pixel dust collectors.

If you have that much fake gold, then deal with it......the guy who got conned....same thing brother......I've had to learn the hard way......

...........and in the end,.....it's a flippin game, not much more.

later

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

And if you purchase or sell gold from a broker, you mix real life with fantasy life and must accept your fate ?

If I was dragged at 13 years old into a kabalah worshiping cult who manipulated me and used me like a tool... oh yes did I mention I did not chose to mix life and fantasy knowingly ? It just happened...

I didn't understand anything back then, so I'm not saying I'm a victim either, because I seeked them actively so I could take my revenge (they had killed my mentor Tifric of AMT remember? that was the story necros vs. virtuous mages).

Now the theft feels wrong since it uses game mechanics to scam. You can't argue about that...

If it was nicely threaded in roleplay and used a disguise kit, wow, hats off...
but this is plain pathetic, unless (and I'll be waiting) this was done to expose the big problem we all seem to kind of agree on about our illusive economy !

If that is the case then we will be reading a very well worded post that should prove interesting. I'm open minded to a certain degree...

 

[slayer888]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

10m and 100m checks?

No effect or maybe even good for me..

But no, thanks.

You want to see higher inflation in UO as well?

Its been like that in real life already! Its not going well at all.

High inflation is always bad

 

[Mapper]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

No thank you to larger checks.

What you need is a simple safe method of transfering goods, perhaps I should walk into my bank dressed like the Queen and ask for £10 million. It won't be possible how much I look like her..

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

You mean inflation is always bad.

 

[Salivern_Diago]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

We definately dont need larger checks, a secure way to trade? Well we have that already in a form. TBH I dont think it needs changing at all, its fine as it is and as long as people are sensible then theres nothing to worry about.

With regards to the OP, after reading the thread on the Rares forum this has nothing to with the scam that took place on Atlantic.

What is needed is a way to get rid of alot more gold and to bring the game economy back in line. People talk alot about fake/duped gold, but I'm pretty sure they got rid of most of that years ago and if not and people know who has duped gold? Why havent you reported it.

Failing that, stop using the complaint that this is duped, that is duped etc etc. If you have proof report it, if not and your purely guessing.. shush with the scare tactics.

 

[NuSair]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

it wasnt a theft, it was a scam, HUGE difference, stealing requires the use of the skill stealing, scamming is just wrong and was once actioned against by GMs years ago

But the scams they did something about years ago and this one have a huge difference. The ones they took action against years ago involved exploiting game mechanics. This one was caused because the person didn't verify who they were handing the armor too, why should the GMs clean up an individuals mistake of their own fault?

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Blah I almost projectile vomited again...

Can it get anymore obvious than this avatar ?

It makes me hallucinate how you guys can be so moody that you start defending something you don't even understand yet. I mean something is very wrong here...

mimicking someone's name in CHARACTER CREATION (GAME MECHANIC) IS..

ah JUST UNDERSTAND !!!

concentrate with me... read, understand, read, understand... one step at a time !

Noone knows if duped gold is duped gold DUH... it's DUPED !

wth you guys made sense yesterday...

If I was a gold broker right now I can have 30 accounts with houses full of 1M checks and put them all private...
YOU GUYS MADE SENSE YESTERDAY !!!
DONT LEAVE ME ALL ALONE

 

[Lady Storm]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

I would like to point out something. I have NOTHING AGAINST Europa Trader. He was chosen as my mark for a few reasons.

1. He obviously had the biggest loot of anyone.
2. His profile/suit was the easiest to clone.
3. The steal could become a symbol for something bigger if I succeeded.

Saying I did this out of spite for the guy is the most overkill statement of the century.

You sir are a real piece of work. You scammed a poor 2nd party who had not one wit of your deceptive ways in mind when they saw what looked as if the real owner aproached. You did not STEAL it as a real in game thief would. You bent the trust of another player to take what blatently was not yours to take. It's sheer worth in UO gold has alot to do with it. You made a point to target the suit/player. You didnt just hurt 1 person but 2 with your "Grand Scam".
I wish the powers behind UO find you and punsih your actions as they should be. What you did was nothing to be proud of.

Thiefing is honest, Scaming is not.

 

[popps]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Im sorry I am against it.

Duping of 1 million checks lead to this ridiculous amount of gold in the game.

Bigger checks mean risk of duping a 100 million gold check.

That's a very good point that finds me in agreement.....

Perhaps, rather than single cheques for amounts larger than 1 millions it could be a better idea to have Cheque "books" that can store "more" of 1 million cheques (like BOD books do for BODs.....).

I am not sure whether this could be subject to duping but I have not heard of BOD books being duped, entirely, so, perhaps, the concept of a "container" of multiple single items inside makes it technically not subjectable to being duped ?

 

[ACB1961]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Excellent solution I missed this yesterday.

So if stack size is 10.5m roughly we're talking about something like 1.8b in a maxd bank. We could live with that.

I'll make two more suggestions...

Bank vendors you drop checks of any denomination on them. They hold the money like a banker, and stand at your house like they're already doing.

An account that holds ALL of our money.

You open a trade window and input the gold amount from there. I like that idea because i use it all the time in another game. You can use any amount because their inflation is worse than our inflation.

This is not a difficult thing to fix.

 

[ACB1961]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

That's a very good point that finds me in agreement.....

Perhaps, rather than single cheques for amounts larger than 1 millions it could be a better idea to have Cheque "books" that can store "more" of 1 million cheques (like BOD books do for BODs.....).

I am not sure whether this could be subject to duping but I have not heard of BOD books being duped, entirely, so, perhaps, the concept of a "container" of multiple single items inside makes it technically not subjectable to being duped ?

Popps people give you a hard time. I'm sorry about that.

I don't understand you sometimes.

However, Raven makes an excellent point, and you make an excellent point as well.

Good job both of you.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

bank drafts

wow that was easy

Well easy to say. The problem getting 35,342,244,242 gold into one place. Maybe a running total in the bank box. Like you drop check into a bank box and you get credit for trade transactions, that can be an endless amount.

Im not saying there arent solutions. I am saying getting a system implemented. The likely outcome is just make 100000000 million checks and that is a bad thing.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

SO I am trying to figure out what happend again.

Did the trade actually happen? That is gold and items traded fairly. But then the fake guy came back and said "let me borrow the set back real quick so I can get a pic?"

He gave him the suit and that was the scam?


Or did he get scammed before the 1 billion of gold transfered?

 

[Dermott of LS]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

...

Instant security against imposter scamming sucyh as this event is already in the game. Each character in the chat system has a unique character code. If the code doesn't match the original character, then DO NOT deal with that character. These numbers are visible in the EC, not sure abouf 2d though.

 

[FetchChessepeake]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

GMs won't intervene, it was a legit scam. The only time they will do something is if you abused a bug or something and exploited a person. For example, if the house was Private, and he somehow abused a bug and got into the house, claiming to be the original owner of the item, a GM would act.

The way I look at it, he studied his mark, copied him exactly, and made off with the stolen goods. From an in character perspective, he applied his disguise admirably, and acted just like him, to confuse the target. He didn't exploit anything but a person's trust. It sucks to lose something so valuable, but the theft was well done.

I miss the old days, before Tram, and insurance, etc. It was far more realistic, back then. The game is much less immersive now... There are just too many safeguards in place to protect your digital property.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

GMs won't intervene, it was a legit scam. The only time they will do something is if you abused a bug or something and exploited a person. For example, if the house was Private, and he somehow abused a bug and got into the house, claiming to be the original owner of the item, a GM would act.

The way I look at it, he studied his mark, copied him exactly, and made off with the stolen goods. From an in character perspective, he applied his disguise admirably, and acted just like him, to confuse the target. He didn't exploit anything but a person's trust. It sucks to lose something so valuable, but the theft was well done.

I miss the old days, before Tram, and insurance, etc. It was far more realistic, back then. The game is much less immersive now... There are just too many safeguards in place to protect your digital property.

The bank box and house should be secure. You characture shouldn't. They should player should always have real game risk. Sadly, they removed that.

Instead of being to fight and kill a player... well there is nothing. Everything is safe. Less a guy dresses up like someone and you give him stuff.

It sucks, but I dont see the need to change the game.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

You sir are a real piece of work. You scammed a poor 2nd party who had not one wit of your deceptive ways in mind when they saw what looked as if the real owner aproached. You did not STEAL it as a real in game thief would. You bent the trust of another player to take what blatently was not yours to take. It's sheer worth in UO gold has alot to do with it. You made a point to target the suit/player. You didnt just hurt 1 person but 2 with your "Grand Scam".
I wish the powers behind UO find you and punsih your actions as they should be. What you did was nothing to be proud of.

Thiefing is honest, Scaming is not.

you have no idea how twisted your ethics need be to have said that with a straight keyboard ... huh?
In a ROLE PLAY GAME ...

ie. you are clearly WRONG to have said that ... no take backs nyah nyah ...
you said it with such emphasis too ... you FELT that way and wrote it ... huh?

I wish the powers behind UO find you and punsih your actions as they should be. What you did was nothing to be proud of.

Thiefing is honest, Scaming is not.

QFT ...

They are BOTH the same ...
they TAKE that which is not theirs
and keep it
method / dance is a little different ...
end result = end result.

Even Richard Garriot >learned that< ...

Annnnnnd ... EA >learned that< ...
no game mechanic "exploited" ... in fact
An >existing< unique identifyer was >available< general chat channel ...
and was >ignored<

Simple as simon says ...
Simon says: give me your stuff
>your supposed to check that simon said it< ...

 

[elianydd]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Ignoring the whole "huge checks" thing for a moment (since I don't have enough in-game money to justify an opinion on that )...

Ultimately, I think this was about a desperate attempt at ATTENTION, as evidenced by the presence of the supposed perpetrator and the abundance of "bragging" about the scam. As such, it has been, and continues to be for as long as it is discussed, a wild success. Unfortunately.

As to the actual "theft", I would love to see the perpetrator banned and the items returned; however, I also recognize that due to the way in which the action was taken, it sounds like more of an IMMORAL thing than an ILLEGAL one, so to speak. Definitely a grey-area for whether action can/should be taken by those in charge.

All IMO, of course. YMMV.

(And yes, just my posting this is, of course, feeding the troll, but since the troll is well-fed ATM anyway...)

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Ignoring the whole "huge checks" thing for a moment (since I don't have enough in-game money to justify an opinion on that )...

Ultimately, I think this was about a desperate attempt at ATTENTION, as evidenced by the presence of the supposed perpetrator and the abundance of "bragging" about the scam. As such, it has been, and continues to be for as long as it is discussed, a wild success. Unfortunately.

As to the actual "theft", I would love to see the perpetrator banned and the items returned; however, I also recognize that due to the way in which the action was taken, it sounds like more of an IMMORAL thing than an ILLEGAL one, so to speak. Definitely a grey-area for whether action can/should be taken by those in charge.

All IMO, of course. YMMV.

(And yes, just my posting this is, of course, feeding the troll, but since the troll is well-fed ATM anyway...)

I think the guy stealing has the need, like you said, to brag and feel accomplished.

I'm not really impressed. Who cares? I am amazed at the energy the goes into stealing a game item. What was it a suit of 'rare' armour? Aren't there like 5 billion rare pieces of armour.

I mean I have that rare suit of 12,12,34,12,4 11% this , 12% that, +1 this, a set of mods that no other suit has. Thats 1 of a kind right?

 

[grig_since98]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

you have no idea how twisted your ethics need be to have said that with a straight keyboard ... huh?
In a ROLE PLAY GAME ...

ie. you are clearly WRONG to have said that ... no take backs nyah nyah ...
you said it with such emphasis too ... you FELT that way and wrote it ... huh?
QFT ...

They are BOTH the same ...
they TAKE that which is not theirs
and keep it
method / dance is a little different ...
end result = end result.

Even Richard Garriot >learned that< ...

I'm sorry, I do not agree here. Using the stealing skill in Fel is a game mechanic, and its there for a reason. If you're going to Fel, you are, by your actions, consenting to experience the risk of player vs. player gameplay, including theft. I could even see the argument of a scam perpetrated in Fel.

The scam outlined above, however, I believe to not be the same as using the stealing skill in Fel. For one thing, it DOES require a certain degree of metagaming. Using a disguise kit to pull something like this off is more grey area, but creating a character to impersonate another character is clearly something that is not consistent with "the game word", or realistic, or whatever you want to call it. It is really no different than a RL scam, which is clearly NOT a game.

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Thank you good sire... my folks often get exited because they had disagreements with the other people they argue with in other threads and most likely have already forgotten what it was all about !

BUT !!! They'll argue

I was a thief in all my UO time from beta to trammel... not only this thief would be thrown out of the thieves guild, we'd make an example out of him... but he would be allowed to say his last words before that ; I doubt he can come up with a good reason although I can imagine a few.

I'm sorry Elianyd, but this is not feeding the troll either... someone earlier mentioned that he stole from the rich to give to the poor ?! What a noble cause, now that he is well fed, please grace us with the details.

Pop is also right about BOD books... any item with dynamic parts in it are much, MUCH harder to dupe than a single check with a fixed value on it. I dunno why exactly but it has to do with the object containing other information on it and since the item needs to be moved to be duped, its almost impossible to move it quick enough.

Probably as well is the reason why these items are worth more in the clean up britannia event... because they take more computer power just being around.

oh and yeah... FD *pats head*

Everyone read that phrase and tought... yeah... thieving is honest... uh... no we don't need you around to point simple things like that... thats really a waste of your brain cells... you can only judge yourself.

 

[Fayled Dhreams]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

I'm sorry, I do not agree here. Using the stealing skill in Fel is a game mechanic, and its there for a reason. If you're going to Fel, you are, by your actions, consenting to experience the risk of player vs. player gameplay, including theft. I could even see the argument of a scam perpetrated in Fel.

The scam outlined above, however, I believe to not be the same as using the stealing skill in Fel. For one thing, it DOES require a certain degree of metagaming. Using a disguise kit to pull something like this off is more grey area, but creating a character to impersonate another character is clearly something that is not consistent with "the game word", or realistic, or whatever you want to call it. It is really no different than a RL scam, which is clearly NOT a game.

Heh! Doesn't matter if you "agree" or not ...
You'll still be wrong on the most fundamental of levels ...

>Lying< IS a valid game mechanic ... dum duh doh!
>>ignoring that fact<< doesn't make it go away
>>ignorance<< is no defense ... now is it?

Lying to yourself ain't gonna change that ...

The "illusion" of the very game itself ...

Exposes the truth for those, and only those

that >see it< ... No matter how hard You PRETEND

that's the way it is ... ipso facto non redacto, burma shaving with occams razor again

and Oh! i see you were in after my edit ... take time to read the KB rules ...

 

[Ahuaeyjnkxs]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Honestly... who cares if it was legal or not...

lol honestly !!!

be honest...

 

[Shqiptar]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

I am also ashamed of the perpatrator who did such an awfull thing to another out of spite, and for what seems like bragging rights.
Shame on you.
I heastate to wonder what you do in RL, for I have found many take their rl persona into the game without knowing it. You should feel shame for duping an innocent person out of anothers property.

Fun fact of the day: Out of all of the thieves who have ever told me what they did in real life, roughly half of them were either in law enforcement or are/have been in one of the branches of the armed services.

I would say that there is a correlation between what people do in-game and what people do in real life, but it may not be what you think at first glance.

Sometimes a game is just a game.

Exactly. 1.2 bil for a suit that essentially does nothing at all? All it will do is sit in a house? I could use that same argument against rares collectors. Pack-rats, greedy, only help each other out even though they are all rich beyond belief.

Obviously my generalizations are unfounded but so are yours.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Ive been play argh 12 years. There is so much rare, uber rare, duped rare, hare of my rare buttocks, the rare market is joke.

It is really this incestual (nonsexual) club of a game style to show you have the rarest item. The rare guys buy from each other and perpetuate this uber rareness. Next week something new will come out from an EM. Where does it end?

I used to have musuems and still have one. There is so much rare crap, you can't functionally lock it down or show it off. There is glut of rareness out there that really makes nothing rare. Think about it.

I don't think that suit is worth even 100 million. I don't see this as 1.2 billion gold theft. I see that someone handed over the suit to someone that tricked him.

I wouldn't play the game that way. I don't see the need to change the game because of it.

If we do need to change the game... lets stop these EM events that make people drool... Maybe Ill become an EM and make stuff. MY point is they are just making stuff. A litte tag of this, a dye of that... and is something really then worth a billion gold. I don't think so.

 

[Kayne]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

It is really this incestual (nonsexual) club of a game style to show you have the rarest item. The rare guys buy from each other and perpetuate this uber rareness. Next week something new will come out from an EM. Where does it end?

I used to have musuems and still have one. There is so much rare crap, you can't functionally lock it down or show it off. There is glut of rareness out there that really makes nothing rare. Think about it.

I wouldn't play the game that way. I don't see the need to change the game because of it.

If we do need to change the game... lets stop these EM events that make people drool... Maybe Ill become an EM and make stuff. MY point is they are just making stuff. A litte tag of this, a dye of that... and is something really then worth a billion gold. I don't think so.

I have to say I agree with everything quoted. I don't think being a rares collector is a bad thing but constantly these Uhall threads are full of people saying how they hate the item based nature of this game and yet they go out hunting for these so called rare items.

I think its cool that there is a suit in existence for St Georges Day (especially as I am English) however I do not agree with pieces of history for individual shards being moved off of that shard.

I do feel sorry for the auction organisers and I do feel sorry for Europa Trader as he is a member of my community over on Europa and he lost a valuable item.

Onto the subject of the post and NO we don't need bigger checks we need things to not reach such ridiculous prices in the first place. A few million is one thing but when things reach a billion then something is wrong.
I mean back when I moved out of my first tiny house into an 18x18 I had to pay something like 2 mil as space was premium back then but that I can understand.

I have all sorts of items that may be classed as rare and I could probably rake in a fortune in the items I've gained over the years but actually I like the fact that I achieved the items through fair play/teamwork/hard work.

Take the original peerless bosses I still don't have a crimson cincture and though I could have bought one at some stage I want to one day earn that. I have earned one of Lady Mel's hairdyes that I was told at the time would sell for millions but thats MY achievement for my effort in battling her.

I have some player made food that is engraved with an event date (player event) which could be considered rare as only a small handful of people were given it at the event. Would I ever sell it? No way in hell - that was part of the event I helped create and the event that I was proud of.

 

[Siteswap]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

the simplest scams are always the best. But they only work if there is someone stupid enough to fall for them. Thats not a dig at the OP, just a fact. If an item is that priceless, or means so much to you then look after it. Simple as that.

Oh, and unique names would also have prevented this scam. Should have been coded into the game from the start.

 

[Tanivar]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Oh, and unique names would also have prevented this scam. Should have been coded into the game from the start.

Agreed.

You can use Guild names to help with identifying someone. Those can't be faked that I know of.

 

[Dermott of LS]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

...

As stated, there are already visible unique character ID codes listed in at least global chat as:

[<12345678>Playername]: Blahblahblah

If you don't want the text broadcast in global chat, then have them at least enter global chat so you can pull up the list of characters in global chat and get tat number. Record the numbers for everyone who submits something to sell, then if they want to "see" their item(s), have them enter global chat so you can compare their ID number to the one you have listed.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

the simplest scams are always the best. But they only work if there is someone stupid enough to fall for them. Thats not a dig at the OP, just a fact. If an item is that priceless, or means so much to you then look after it. Simple as that.

Oh, and unique names would also have prevented this scam. Should have been coded into the game from the start.

Unless of course one considers the fact that someone who isn't going to think to verify the identity might also not necessarily notice, not immediately, a slight misspelling.

Galen vs. Gaalen.

Galen vs. Ga1en.

Obvious when you look, not so much when you already think someone is legit because of a particularly lucky, well-timed, well-prepared scam, which from what I have read this was.

And besides: Flexibility, which would include the use of non-unique names, is one of UO's most important features.

Having unique names makes it basically impossible for you to have a name that's just a normal person's name. I have an alt named John. That's it. Just John.

I have never been one to want to name my characters such unique sounding things as Gondar Blackstaff, for example. And after all the normal names were gone, what else would be left?

Then there's the fact of cross-shard names and cross-shard scams.

*shrugs*

-Galen's player

 

[canary]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

I used to have musuems and still have one. There is so much rare crap, you can't functionally lock it down or show it off. There is glut of rareness out there that really makes nothing rare. Think about it.

Pretty much this.

IMO, while I'm glad we have EMs, it also (to me) signaled the end of the rares market. Almost every week there are new, rehued items with just a new tag on it. Really, it just tends to make rares a joke of sorts. And there are so many released I fail to see how anyone gets excited about it anymore (unless it is a 1 of a kind item, not a 10, or 20, or whatever... which doesn't really happen).

Besides, things are only worth as much as people are willing to pay for them.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Ive been play argh 12 years. There is so much rare, uber rare, duped rare, hare of my rare buttocks, the rare market is joke.

It is really this incestual (nonsexual) club of a game style to show you have the rarest item. The rare guys buy from each other and perpetuate this uber rareness. Next week something new will come out from an EM. Where does it end?

This is how rares collection has always been. Some people like to collect unique things. Basically from the tone and content of this post it seems like you used to, no longer do, and instead of saying "this playstyle is no longer for me," you say "this playstyle should no longer be for anyone."

I used to have musuems and still have one. There is so much rare crap, you can't functionally lock it down or show it off. There is glut of rareness out there that really makes nothing rare. Think about it.

I did. You make no sense, and this is why.

What makes an item unique is that it is unique. Not that its uniqueness is unique.

A one-of-a-kind renamed rock is still rare simply because it is one-of-a-kind. The fact that a one-of-a-kind renamed crystal ball by definition doesn't make the one-of-a-kind rock less one-of-a-kind.

In all honesty this post sounds like jealousy that a rares museum simply houses a lower percentage of total rare items than it once did.

I don't think that suit is worth even 100 million.

To me it wouldn't be worth 10m. I don't collect rares; I get them from events and sell them to buy other things.

I don't see this as 1.2 billion gold theft. I see that someone handed over the suit to someone that tricked him.

The gold value is, I think, a market price for the item. The fact that you wouldn't pay a tenth of that and I wouldn't pay a tenth of what you might pay is of little consequence in terms of judging the gold value of the theft. I wouldn't pay $10 for one of those rare Russian Easter Egg thingies IRL. It doesn't make it petty theft if I steal it.

I wouldn't play the game that way. I don't see the need to change the game because of it.

I agree, but for different reasons: Most of what I've read so far has less to do with the theft itself and more to do with everyone's pet concern of the moments. We've had "too much gold," "trading system reform," "unique names." Even the very topic of the post would, had it been an actual system, not prevented this theft.

If we do need to change the game... lets stop these EM events that make people drool...

So.....The EM events should stop because they make rare items that are not the same as your rare items, but enable people other than you to have, trade, and display items that are rare in objective terms, because they are of limited quantity?

Firstly a lot more goes on in EM events than item-getting. And secondly, the item-getting, as stated above, doesn't actually make your stuff less rare. Using your logic the existence of those Russian Easter Egg thingies should also have an impact on the value of rare violins. (I hate RL examples but that's all I could manage at the moment; apologies.)

Maybe Ill become an EM and make stuff. MY point is they are just making stuff. A litte tag of this, a dye of that... and is something really then worth a billion gold. I don't think so.

I wouldn't pay 10m for that suit.

It doesn't mean it isn't worth 1.2b. It means it isn't worth anywhere near that for me.

-Galen's player

 

[Kayne]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

Oh, and unique names would also have prevented this scam. Should have been coded into the game from the start.

No unique names shouldn't have been coded in.

Example time: in 1997 a player named a char "Kayne" he/she stops playing in 2000. I come along in 2006 and want to name my char "Kayne" and I'm immediately unable to due to someone who hasn't played for 6 years.....

That I know of Europa has two chars named "Kayne" one being myself and another who is a trader and has been around quite a while. I have on occasion been asked if I am the trader but I politely tell people no. In a lot of instances this usually leads them to discover I am the "stratics Kayne" because I've been here for years.
As someone else already said being able to name your chars "John" is good and how many times have we seen a Gandalf or a Saruman. Yes it may get slightly annoying seeing unimaginative names repeating each other but that says far more about the owner of the char.

 

[Demonous]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

But the scams they did something about years ago and this one have a huge difference. The ones they took action against years ago involved exploiting game mechanics. This one was caused because the person didn't verify who they were handing the armor too, why should the GMs clean up an individuals mistake of their own fault?

actually people got suspended for pretending to repair someones vanquishing weapon and running away with it, which is basically the same principle here, you put your trust in someone and are taken advantage of for doing so, I loved when GMs would give the item back to the original owner and suspend the scammer, was the best feeling ever, seriously if Mesanna felt like helping people once in a while and got involved in things like this, people would like her a lot more

 

[Demonous]

Re: Secure Trade 1.2 billion theft proves we need a secure way to transfer costly ite

GMs won't intervene, it was a legit scam. The only time they will do something is if you abused a bug or something and exploited a person. For example, if the house was Private, and he somehow abused a bug and got into the house, claiming to be the original owner of the item, a GM would act.

The way I look at it, he studied his mark, copied him exactly, and made off with the stolen goods. From an in character perspective, he applied his disguise admirably, and acted just like him, to confuse the target. He didn't exploit anything but a person's trust. It sucks to lose something so valuable, but the theft was well done.

I miss the old days, before Tram, and insurance, etc. It was far more realistic, back then. The game is much less immersive now... There are just too many safeguards in place to protect your digital property.

no such thing as a legit scam, sorry