Status Check on the Third Party Cheat Detection

[UOKaiser]

You are so full of it, your eyes are brown... As someone posted further up the thread, it's a very good thing you aren't running the show, and it's also a good thing that so much of what you say is so completely and clearly ridiculous that there is very little chance anyone who reads this forum, who actually does understand these things, will ever pay attention to a word you write.

I think I'll just go back to my official Enhanced Client cheat, you know the vanilla one with no actual cheats installed, and have some more fun...

He's right. Everyone knows this as common fact. We be knowing this for over 10 years. No 2d script program can overcome another player in PVP that is more than a begginer. It's just not possible. It will hinder them to no end. When fighting you need to take into account everyhting that the person is doing so you can counter. The only way to counter quickly and efficiently without errors is wiith key macros. See him cast a spell press hotkey or roll mouse to recover,need to use a specific special press other hot key to use. Need a combo press macro to use it. Everything takes careful timing and the better your hardware for gaming the easier it is for you. Any scripts will be fooled and reaction time is too slow to your instinct. This is vet known fact there is no way to spin this. The above average,good and best pvps never use a script if they wish to win.

 

[ingsmsico]

He's right. Everyone knows this as common fact. We be knowing this for over 10 years. No 2d script program can overcome another player in PVP that is more than a begginer. It's just not possible. It will hinder them to no end. When fighting you need to take into account everyhting that the person is doing so you can counter. The only way to counter quickly and efficiently without errors is wiith key macros. See him cast a spell press hotkey or roll mouse to recover,need to use a specific special press other hot key to use. Need a combo press macro to use it. Everything takes careful timing and the better your hardware for gaming the easier it is for you. Any scripts will be fooled and reaction time is too slow to your instinct. This is vet known fact there is no way to spin this. The above average,good and best pvps never use a script if they wish to win.

there is some truth to all of this as far as generic PvP scripts go, but you can create custom scripts to specifically augment your unique playstyle and, indeed, get an unfair advantage.

 

[Llewen]

He's right. Everyone knows this as common fact. We be knowing this for over 10 years. No 2d script program can overcome another player in PVP that is more than a begginer. It's just not possible. It will hinder them to no end. When fighting you need to take into account everyhting that the person is doing so you can counter. The only way to counter quickly and efficiently without errors is wiith key macros. See him cast a spell press hotkey or roll mouse to recover,need to use a specific special press other hot key to use. Need a combo press macro to use it. Everything takes careful timing and the better your hardware for gaming the easier it is for you. Any scripts will be fooled and reaction time is too slow to your instinct. This is vet known fact there is no way to spin this. The above average,good and best pvps never use a script if they wish to win.

there is some truth to all of this as far as generic PvP scripts go, but you can create custom scripts to specifically augment your unique playstyle and, indeed, get an unfair advantage.

Exactly! And you don't even need to create custom scripts, you can just tweak and adjust the many scripts that are readily available.

 

[UOKaiser]

there is some truth to all of this as far as generic PvP scripts go, but you can create custom scripts to specifically augment your unique playstyle and, indeed, get an unfair advantage.

Not good enough. You can't control what the other player is doing especially if you getting jumped. With multiple different spells and actions happening at the same time. The script can only account to one action at a time. A human player with a mouse filled with macro and hotkeys memorised on it will be able to account every situation at all times and react to them before the opponent even thinks of his actions against you. Like remmeber street fighther when you already knew what your opponent next move was before they even did it?Human instinct can't beat it.

 

[popps]

I haven't been around in a few months but I'm not surprised you guys are still creating these threads and having the same meaningless conversation that's been going on for years.

Below is the post by the creator of the program that shall not be named "penned" after EA announced Punkbuster way back in 2006. It is still relevant today. Give it a good thoughtful read.

I have always said that the problem is the inequality of some players using scripts/hacks/cheats and some other players not using them.

Now, the BEST scenario would be having no player use no scripts, no hacks and no cheats.

If that is achievable, that is wonderfull and this is what should be the dream.

BUT, all that said, if this is not possible to obtain, WHATEVER THE REASONS be them technical or financial or whatever else, then I think it would only be fair towards all players that all scripting, cheating and hacking was to be made legal and open up to use to all players without worries.

Saying it is bannable but then not getting Ultima Online rid of scripting, hacking and cheating and have some players use it without consequences while other players play with a handicap, not using them, is just dead wrong, IMHO.

If the Developers can find a great and ingenuous way to eradicate UO from scripts, hacks and cheat this is most wonderfull.

But if there is no such way, technically or too many accounts would be lost if this happened and the Developers decide not to do anything about it well, then AT THE VERY LEAST they should make a public announcement to all players saying that players, ALL players will be allowed to freely script, use third party software and hack for speed increase, run through blocking obstacles and what not.

The bottom line issue here is, IMHO, that either NO PLAYERS or ALL PLAYERS ALIKE should be able to play the game just the same, either NOT using cheats or using them.

It is having some players playing the game with a handicap which is upsetting and unfair.

At least that is how I see it.

 

[Llewen]

there is some truth to all of this as far as generic PvP scripts go, but you can create custom scripts to specifically augment your unique playstyle and, indeed, get an unfair advantage.

Not good enough. You can't control what the other player is doing especially if you getting jumped. With multiple different spells and actions happening at the same time. The script can only account to one action at a time. A human player with a mouse filled with macro and hotkeys memorised on it will be able to account every situation at all times and react to them before the opponent even thinks of his actions against you. Like remmeber street fighther when you already knew what your opponent next move was before they even did it?Human instinct can't beat it.

My guess is you don't understand what these scripts are doing, or how they are used. For one thing, the only players that I have noticed scripts on have been dexxers (and maybe archers). I haven't noticed any mages using them because what you have said would be true for mages. But intelligent use of scripts on a dexxer can change that dexxer from being mediocre, to almost being unkillable, the difference is that great.

I don't pretend to know exactly how they all work either, but I do know something about scripting in general, and I have read up on ****** scripts, and looked at the code for several scripts. Obviously these people aren't using scripts to fight their entire battle, but they are running scripts that will chug heal pots when health reaches a certain level, or apply bandages, or eat petals and buff pots when they need to or can, so that they don't have to think about that. And I know there are some pretty devastating offensive scripts as well that will deliver combinations and sequences of actions not possible with UOA or even EC macros.

You are seriously under selling what can be done with scripts, and their benefits. For one thing, and I've said this a number of times, scripts don't get distracted by large numbers of player actions, and they don't lose track of what everyone is doing. I don't know about you, but when there are more than a few characters on screen, I have a pretty hard time keeping track of what they are all doing. Scripts don't have that problem. They don't forget to check your health. And well coded scripts will deal with interruptions, cool downs, and multiple actions which might interfere with what they are trying to do.

Scripts are very bad if over used, they will do a very bad job of fighting your entire battle for you. But if they are selectively and intelligently used, and properly coded and tweaked, they can perform certain basic functions for a character far more consistently, and even faster, than any human player could, and they can and do make a decisive difference in pvp. And "tbpots" is a perfect example of that. Without his scripts on his dexxer he is very average, and very mediocre. With his scripts his dexxer is one of the hardest characters on the shard to kill, and delivers certain combos offensively that are simply devastating. More than once I've died in a split second to a scripted combo from him, and I can tell it is a script because the script will still be running after I am already dead.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Well if that really is your goal, then you might want to send Mesanna the link to that site, and even better, engage in some espionage, get a copy of the app, and arrange to send the devs a copy. My guess is you won't do that, but if you really are interested in providing the devs with "as clear and as full a picture of the situation as possible", then I would think that would be somethig you would be willing to do.

1. I would think they would already be detecting it, if they were monitoring the EC client as well as the CC client...which is my concern...if they only monitor one of them, then missing half the picture.

2. I can't give them this information, as I do not divulge the specifics of those who confide with me and give me information. This open attitude has given me a massive insight into how things truly work in several games cheatingwise/RMTwise. I like that and I like people being honest with me. This however gives me some irking itch to tell on people, when anti-cheaters here on this forum, whom I know are cheaters post their anti-cheat rants and I can't call them on it. Same problem with some of the more holy people, whom I know are benefitting from cheaters or participate in events run partially or fully by cheaters. But information always have a price and this is mine.

 

[Lord Chaos]

there is some truth to all of this as far as generic PvP scripts go, but you can create custom scripts to specifically augment your unique playstyle and, indeed, get an unfair advantage.

All it can do is replace you pressing buttons and it will still be slower at it.

Heck, even on the site that shall not be named, there are speedtests that shows that the old scripts are horridly slow.

 

[Lord Chaos]

My guess is you don't understand what these scripts are doing, or how they are used. For one thing, the only players that I have noticed scripts on have been dexxers (and maybe archers). I haven't noticed any mages using them because what you have said would be true for mages. But intelligent use of scripts on a dexxer can change that dexxer from being mediocre, to almost being unkillable, the difference is that great.

I don't pretend to know exactly how they all work either, but I do know something about scripting in general, and I have read up on ****** scripts, and looked at the code for several scripts. Obviously these people aren't using scripts to fight their entire battle, but they are running scripts that will chug heal pots when health reaches a certain level, or apply bandages, or eat petals and buff pots when they need to or can, so that they don't have to think about that. And I know there are some pretty devastating offensive scripts as well that will deliver combinations and sequences of actions not possible with UOA or even EC macros.

You are seriously under selling what can be done with scripts, and their benefits. For one thing, and I've said this a number of times, scripts don't get distracted by large numbers of player actions, and they don't lose track of what everyone is doing. I don't know about you, but when there are more than a few characters on screen, I have a pretty hard time keeping track of what they are all doing. Scripts don't have that problem. They don't forget to check your health. And well coded scripts will deal with interruptions, cool downs, and multiple actions which might interfere with what they are trying to do.

Scripts are very bad if over used, they will do a very bad job of fighting your entire battle for you. But if they are selectively and intelligently used, and properly coded and tweaked, they can perform certain basic functions for a character far more consistently, and even faster, than any human player could, and they can and do make a decisive difference in pvp. And "tbpots" is a perfect example of that. Without his scripts on his dexxer he is very average, and very mediocre. With his scripts his dexxer is one of the hardest characters on the shard to kill, and delivers certain combos offensively that are simply devastating. More than once I've died in a split second to a scripted combo from him, and I can tell it is a script because the script will still be running after I am already dead.

Scripts can't even really figure out multiple targets, its slow and it reacts like clockwork, which is a BAD thing. You can deadlock a scripter with minor poison as it will keep trying to cure, while a human player would just stop and concentrate on fighting and only occasionally heal. Also the script only does it like a dummy, it doesn't react intelligently at all to anything.

All the things like bandages, petals, etc. can all be done better with proper usage of your controllers.

The scripts can however make a bad PvP'er into a semi-good one. But it won't raise anyone beyond that level and certainly not to god level.

 

[R Traveler]

oops, wrong key

 

[Llewen]

Well, my foremost goal is really for the devs to have as clear and as full a picture of the situation as possible.

I can't give them this information, as I do not divulge the specifics of those who confide with me and give me information.

That sounds like an excuse to me, and rather puts the lie to your statement further up the thread.

This however gives me some irking itch to tell on people, when anti-cheaters here on this forum, whom I know are cheaters post their anti-cheat rants and I can't call them on it. Same problem with some of the more holy people, whom I know are benefitting from cheaters or participate in events run partially or fully by cheaters.

And this sounds like a license to throw around vague and unsubstantiated accusations and to try and ruin reputations without the need to offer any proof, as you have attempted to do with me.

Scripts can't even really figure out multiple targets, its slow and it reacts like clockwork, which is a BAD thing. You can deadlock a scripter with minor poison as it will keep trying to cure, while a human player would just stop and concentrate on fighting and only occasionally heal. Also the script only does it like a dummy, it doesn't react intelligently at all to anything.

All the things like bandages, petals, etc. can all be done better with proper usage of your controllers.

The scripts can however make a bad PvP'er into a semi-good one. But it won't raise anyone beyond that level and certainly not to god level.

You are wrong, and my guess is you know you are wrong, you may post some pretty stupid nonsense, but you are far from stupid. Macros perform sequences of actions "like a dummy", well written scripts do not. Badly written, buggy scripts can be "deadlocked". Well written, intelligently used scripts, can not. If you assign a very complex task to a script, it will probably do it badly. If you assign very simple tasks to scripts, they will perform them more consistently, and faster, than any human can.

That's the reason why robots are used on assembly lines. A script is a program, just like the programs that control those robots. Do you think all of the big car companies would use robots if they didn't work faster, more efficiently, more consistently, and more safely than humans do? The same applies to UO scripts, although on a much simpler and smaller scale. The big auto companies don't have robots working their assembly lines because their engineers, technicians, managers, and even their low level assembly line workers are bad at what they do.

 

[UOKaiser]

That sounds like an excuse to me, and rather puts the lie to your statement further up the thread.



And this sounds like a license to throw around vague and unsubstantiated accusations and to try and ruin reputations without the need to offer any proof, as you have attempted to do with me.



You are wrong, and my guess is you know you are wrong, you may post some pretty stupid nonsense, but you are far from stupid. Macros perform sequences of actions "like a dummy", well written scripts do not. Badly written, buggy scripts can be "deadlocked". Well written, intelligently used scripts, can not. If you assign a very complex task to a script, it will probably do it badly. If you assign very simple tasks to scripts, they will perform them more consistently, and faster, than any human can.

That's the reason why robots are used on assembly lines. A script is a program, just like the programs that control those robots. Do you think all of the big car companies would use robots if they didn't work faster, more efficiently, more consistently, and more safely than humans do? The same applies to UO scripts, although on a much simpler and smaller scale. The big auto companies don't have robots working their assembly lines because their engineers, technicians, managers, and even their low level assembly line workers are bad at what they do.

He's not wrong. Just write yourself a script using that program and use it on a freeshard that allows it you will see the limitations. The scripts are not AI. Hell I wiould hate real AI we end up on battlestar galactica or terminator war. Those robots do the same operations over and over. If a car said hell no i don't want to be made and stood up and destroyed a few robots I doubt the robots will be attack the car and repair the other robot and go back to work.
Human actions needs to be countered correctly as they are random and only instinct can come close to predicting human perception.

 

[ingsmsico]

Not good enough. You can't control what the other player is doing especially if you getting jumped. With multiple different spells and actions happening at the same time. The script can only account to one action at a time. A human player with a mouse filled with macro and hotkeys memorised on it will be able to account every situation at all times and react to them before the opponent even thinks of his actions against you. Like remmeber street fighther when you already knew what your opponent next move was before they even did it?Human instinct can't beat it.

but, on top of all you just said which i agree with, they can still help in specific situations. it is silly to ignore that fact.

 

[Llewen]

He's not wrong. Just write yourself a script using that program and use it on a freeshard that allows it you will see the limitations. The scripts are not AI.

He is wrong.

I'm not going to install ****** or go play on a freeshard to prove it to you, but I certainly could. Whether I could get them working as well as they do for "tbpots", I don't know, but I can assure you, I could make myself very very hard to kill on a dexxer. I know this because I've seen them in action. And I know I've seen them in action, not just because of what I've seen in game, but I've also had my guesses confirmed by a witness that I trust who has heard "tbpots" talking about his scripts in vent, and in one case by another person who used them himself admitting to me that he used them.

And I know those two specific cases are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to dexxers and the use of scripts in pvp. And I very much doubt that dexxers are the only ones using scripts to great effect in pvp.

 

[HD2300]

Oh and RMT is not against the UO Rules.

RMT is illegal. UO rules state that everything belongs to EA.

"5. Rights and Responsibilities. (c) Rights. You acknowledge and agree that all characters created, and items acquired and developed as a result of game play are part of the Software and Service and are the sole property of Electronic Arts."

Hence it is fraud if you sell UO items for real life cash because they dont belong to you.

Just like although using unsanctioned 3rd party programs is illegal, banning their illegal use has not yet been continually and consistently enforced... but it will soon.

 

[Lord Chaos]

RMT is illegal. UO rules state that everything belongs to EA.

"5. Rights and Responsibilities. (c) Rights. You acknowledge and agree that all characters created, and items acquired and developed as a result of game play are part of the Software and Service and are the sole property of Electronic Arts."

This doesn't matter, you can still buy and sell them. They do not physically leave EAs property and remains theirs, you're simply paying to have it transfered to you.

It isn't and never has been illegal to buy or sell in UO.

 

[UOKaiser]

He is wrong.

I'm not going to install ****** or go play on a freeshard to prove it to you, but I certainly could. Whether I could get them working as well as they do for "tbpots", I don't know, but I can assure you, I could make myself very very hard to kill on a dexxer. I know this because I've seen them in action. And I know I've seen them in action, not just because of what I've seen in game, but I've also had my guesses confirmed by a witness that I trust who has heard "tbpots" talking about his scripts in vent, and in one case by another person who used them himself admitting to me that he used them.

And I know those two specific cases are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to dexxers and the use of scripts in pvp. And I very much doubt that dexxers are the only ones using scripts to great effect in pvp.

You don't need to prove it to me. I already know. This is to prove to yourself. the evidence is already known. I only deal with fact and logic. I can't make up things just to make something more creditable. If it better then i would say it was better but it's not so i'll only be lying to myself. Scripts just hinder anybody who wants to win. those who want to survive it will work long enough for them to run away but if they ever want to win the scripts will destroy them.

Script language, timing, the program capabilities, limits, opponents behavior,multi opponents-single opponents,against mage,against dexter,against hybrids,gate fighting,faction fighting,delay time between reaction between human to program to client to movement, knowing that only one script can run at a time,knowing that that script cannot take into account of every situation,knowing that the delay for the script to scan mage spells or to notice that yea am poisoned compare to a human knowing without hesitation without dealy and but 1 hotbutton to fix the situation before it occures,everything is taken into effect.

The conclusion of this and examples of advanced script writing and testing will easily conclude the reason script are not used for any serious PVP.

 

[UOKaiser]

RMT is illegal. UO rules state that everything belongs to EA.

"5. Rights and Responsibilities. (c) Rights. You acknowledge and agree that all characters created, and items acquired and developed as a result of game play are part of the Software and Service and are the sole property of Electronic Arts."

Hence it is fraud if you sell UO items for real life cash because they dont belong to you.

Just like although using unsanctioned 3rd party programs is illegal, banning their illegal use has not yet been continually and consistently enforced... but it will soon.

That doesn't make RMT illegal. The ones who sell the items are not selling the items. They say so in there sites. The items never leave EA property,They are trading the items to the buyers and the buyers are buying the sellers efforts and time to aquire such items. As your time and effort belongs to you you can sell such service.No tangeble property is being traded as the property is on EA servers and are non removable from EA hands.

 

[Llewen]

You don't need to prove it to me. I already know. This is to prove to yourself. the evidence is already known. I only deal with fact and logic.

At this point we've come down to, "Did too!", "Did not!" You think you know you are right, I know I'm right. But you would say the same thing. We'll have to agree to disagree. I know what I've seen. I've seen the evidence. I've had it corroborated by multiple sources. I can't do much better than that.

And you saying, "I only deal with fact and logic" is completely meaningless in light of what I have seen with my own eyes, and heard with my own ears, and seen in hundreds of hours of pvp experience, and as I have already said a number of times, have had corroborated from extremely reliable, experienced sources.

 

[HD2300]

^^

Justifications of the pro-cheat pro-RMT lobby are absurd.

Their justification of RMT is like saying it is not illegal to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge (items), because the government (EA) will still own it.

Good (Script) AI > Humans. The classic example are modern fly by wire computer controlled aircraft. Without computer control (Script AI) assistance these aircraft would crash.

 

[UOKaiser]

At this point we've come down to, "Did too!", "Did not!" You think you know you are right, I know I'm right. But you would say the same thing. We'll have to agree to disagree. I know what I've seen. I've seen the evidence. I've had it corroborated by multiple sources. I can't do much better than that.

And you saying, "I only deal with fact and logic" is completely meaningless in light of what I have seen with my own eyes, and heard with my own ears, and seen in hundreds of hours of pvp experience, and as I have already said a number of times, have had corroborated from extremely reliable, experienced sources.

You have to test it yourself to truly know the capibilities. The rest is hearsay. The sources that you are quoting are of there own opinions either because they beleived it's used on them or fight against others that use them or use them themselves or are for using them or against using them or never learned how to tuly make use of gaming equipment and have only relied on these scripts to pvp. Only testing yourself will tell you the truth of the situation vs many different situations of trained opponents.

Just looking at the possibilities without testing the language will show you the limitations of such programs. If you do not test the program then you will have to go by what others tell you. You must judge for yourself it's limitations and capabilities. When looking for the truth you must be willing to walk outside the norm. Some will go through this others will not. It depends on the importance of finding out the information. Other than that we will just go back on forth on this for the next 13 years or till UO servers shut down.

 

[UOKaiser]

^^

Justifications of the pro-cheat pro-RMT lobby are absurd.

Their justification of RMT is like saying it is not illegal to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge (items), because the government (EA) will still own it.

Good (Script) AI > Humans. The classic example are modern fly by wire computer controlled aircraft. Without computer control (Script AI) assistance these aircraft would crash.

They can and has being done. The brooklyn bridge has being sold before sadly the buyers never got the item. Actually it's also more akin to those buy a piece of the road like in seinfield episode when cramer bought that piece of the road and started cleaning it and painting lines.

Humans>than good script. Simply because they can react to randomness and that program is not a 1trillion dollar research project. If we have advanced to the point that anybody can make a program to guide in a army of robots airplanes unarmed to win battles why do we have soldiers? We have drones and spy planes that are on a preset course. Even then there is human operaters that control the situation manualy like macros to us.

A flock of birds coming to that plane the program has a variable to avoid the birds if it comes too close but what happens if the birds decide to follow the plane and crash into it. It will have to make decisions based on experience and change tactics to suit the situation.
Either way we are talking about a preprogram script that the only way to keep up with situations is to have it reprogram itself every second. This program is not that advance.
People use a different set of programs that won't be automatic but allow you to operate sets of commands as the situation arise and send these commands faster than you can if you did it by hand. They are called hot keys and macros. They initiate a specific set of actions as soon as you press the button allowing you to account for many different situations and feelings of the human player. Randomness of the opponent does not effect it as you have every offence and counter ready at your disposle in a moments notice.

 

[Llewen]

You have to test it yourself to truly know the capibilities. The rest is hearsay. The sources that you are quoting are of there own opinions either because they beleived it's used on them or fight against others that use them or use them themselves or are for using them or against using them or never learned how to tuly make use of gaming equipment and have only relied on these scripts to pvp. Only testing yourself will tell you the truth of the situation vs many different situations of trained opponents.

Just looking at the possibilities without testing the language will show you the limitations of such programs. If you do not test the program then you will have to go by what others tell you. You must judge for yourself it's limitations and capabilities. When looking for the truth you must be willing to walk outside the norm. Some will go through this others will not. It depends on the importance of finding out the information. Other than that we will just go back on forth on this for the next 13 years or till UO servers shut down.

One of my sources is someone who has been in vent with "tbpots" who truly is one of the best pvp'rs on the shard, and who is the only one that can consistently beat me, every time, when his scripts are working. "tbpots" basically explained to him how he did it. The other source was someone who was very hard to kill, who admitted to me that he used these scripts.

I also know something about scripting, and as I have said, I have pvp'd for hundreds, if not thousands of hours, in all kinds of situations. I'm certainly not "tbpots", but I am experienced, and fairly successful. I know what I'm talking about. I know scripts when I see them, and I am not the kind of person to cry "cheat" just because I lost a battle.

You either don't know what you are talking about, or you are deliberately being misleading.

 

[Lord Chaos]

You either don't know what you are talking about, or you are deliberately being misleading.

Mirror Mirror.

Jeez, ultimate irony here.

 

[Llewen]

*snip*

I should also say this isn't the only support I have for my opinions. I have also personally been in vent when cheats were being discussed, and have had at a minimum dozens of discussions with others, both in game and out of game on the topic. Not to mention years of hosting fps servers and being involved in the anti-cheat communities for those games.

Mirror Mirror.

Jeez, ultimate irony here.

I've given you my character information. If you want to accuse me of something formally, do it. You know how. To quote Dirty Harry, "Go ahead, make my day." If you are worried that I haven't given you my genuine character information there are plenty of people that frequent these forums who know me and can vouch for it's authenticity.

 

[Kratos Aurion]

The program that shall not be named is slow reacting and will never be better in PvP against a good PvPer, especially one that has Naga Razor mouse, G19s, N52s or god knows what else hardware help.

Not to bash you or anything, but this statement is simply untrue. To prove my point, all you need is a simple script file created either in VB or even Java. Have the script create popups and close them, and a second script create popups and you close them. Time your reaction time versus the scripts. I bet your reaction time is significantly worse than the scripts, which would be instantaneous.

Computers perform actions in nanoseconds (faster actually), humans think/perform in... well seconds (some not at all! ). The reaction time of a script will ALWAYS be faster than a humans. Where the problem lies is in the judgement. A script cannot judge therefore it will not always be the most effective combat technique, yet computers that are capable of running multiple scripts that are synchronized correctly could easily cause pvp field problems, and that's exactly what has been going on in UO for the past 5 + years (wasn't prevelant until LBR and later).

 

[Llewen]

The program that shall not be named is slow reacting and will never be better in PvP against a good PvPer, especially one that has Naga Razor mouse, G19s, N52s or god knows what else hardware help.

Not to bash you or anything, but this statement is simply untrue. To prove my point, all you need is a simple script file created either in VB or even Java. Have the script create popups and close them, and a second script create popups and you close them. Time your reaction time versus the scripts. I bet your reaction time is significantly worse than the scripts, which would be instantaneous.

Computers perform actions in nanoseconds (faster actually), humans think/perform in... well seconds (some not at all! ). The reaction time of a script will ALWAYS be faster than a humans. Where the problem lies is in the judgement. A script cannot judge therefore it will not always be the most effective combat technique, yet computers that are capable of running multiple scripts that are synchronized correctly could easily cause pvp field problems, and that's exactly what has been going on in UO for the past 5 + years (wasn't prevelant until LBR and later).

Exactly, and anyone who knows anything about scripts and specifically about scripting in UO would know that this is true. It feels an awful lot like some people are trying to pull off a huge snow job when it comes to scripting in pvp in UO. Maybe if they can convince everyone that there is no real problem here the devs won't feel compelled to act.

If the third party cheat detection is actually doing it's job, and it isn't a huge snow job itself, then the devs by now will have a pretty good idea that what I've been screaming from the roof tops for the past six months is true.

 

[Kratos Aurion]

Exactly, and anyone who knows anything about scripts and specifically about scripting in UO would know that this is true. It feels an awful lot like some people are trying to pull off a huge snow job when it comes to scripting in pvp in UO. Maybe if they can convince everyone that there is no real problem here the devs won't feel compelled to act.

If the third party cheat detection is actually doing it's job, and it isn't a huge snow job itself, then the devs by now will have a pretty good idea that what I've been screaming from the roof tops for the past six months is true.

I completely agree. Game mechanic changes won't work, as scripters will only alter the reaction time of the script, and implement new scripts in their stead to perform other/alternative actions while the cool down timer of the previous script refreshes.

I was hoping that they would have implemented punkbuster, it took me awhile to accept that idea, but reflecting back on the history of UO, it would have been for the best (imo). People who shout "nay" only suggest that they're somehow affiliated with it (the bad software), but not in every case. The program only watches for red flag programs affiliated with mmo cheating, so it wouldn't collect annonymous or random data from your pc. Personally, I hope the dev team starts enforcing new policies like this to clean the game up, lest they be forced to launch UO2 with a highly polished, high res 2D sprites/environment and story mode that people actually like! oi!

Edit: yoinks, morning filled with typos and run ons. I need a fresh cup of morning brew..

 

[Lord Chaos]

Not to bash you or anything, but this statement is simply untrue. To prove my point, all you need is a simple script file created either in VB or even Java. Have the script create popups and close them, and a second script create popups and you close them. Time your reaction time versus the scripts. I bet your reaction time is significantly worse than the scripts, which would be instantaneous.

Not to accuse you of being dense or anything...but what the hell does VB or Java have to do with the program that shall not be named?

It is significantly slower, its an ancient program with an ancient custom language that tries to interface with the UO Client in a custom script language in a single thread.

Computers perform actions in nanoseconds (faster actually), humans think/perform in... well seconds (some not at all! ). The reaction time of a script will ALWAYS be faster than a humans. Where the problem lies is in the judgement. A script cannot judge therefore it will not always be the most effective combat technique, yet computers that are capable of running multiple scripts that are synchronized correctly could easily cause pvp field problems, and that's exactly what has been going on in UO for the past 5 + years (wasn't prevelant until LBR and later).

You're speaking of things that this program can't even do. It can't syncronize scripts. All it does in PvP are things you can already do better with your controller if you're good at PvP. Scripting is simply the lazy and consistant version.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Exactly, and anyone who knows anything about scripts and specifically about scripting in UO would know that this is true.

Which you clearly don't know anything about or you're trying to obfuscate.

It feels an awful lot like some people are trying to pull off a huge snow job when it comes to scripting in pvp in UO. Maybe if they can convince everyone that there is no real problem here the devs won't feel compelled to act.

Ok, I'll give you a challenge then. We have a really good PvPer who doesn't use scripts. You find all the most advanced scripts you can find and you try to beat him. He'll whoop your ass. Just like he does every guildmember that uses scripts in PvP...consistently.

If the third party cheat detection is actually doing it's job, and it isn't a huge snow job itself, then the devs by now will have a pretty good idea that what I've been screaming from the roof tops for the past six months is true.

If they're half intelligent, they'll know you're full of it. There are programs that gives you a significant illegal advantage. Speedhacks (movement and usagewise), the new script programs (mostly for the EC) and custom programs that hack the datastream.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I completely agree. Game mechanic changes won't work, as scripters will only alter the reaction time of the script

Uhm, had you any clue, you'd know that you cannot adjust the reaction time of the scripts of that program.

and implement new scripts in their stead to perform other/alternative actions while the cool down timer of the previous script refreshes.

Uhm, you're acting like running multiple scripts in sync is even possible with that program.

The only program that supports multiple scripts like that is the new EC cheat.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I should also say this isn't the only support I have for my opinions. I have also personally been in vent when cheats were being discussed, and have had at a minimum dozens of discussions with others, both in game and out of game on the topic. Not to mention years of hosting fps servers and being involved in the anti-cheat communities for those games.

To even BEGIN to compare those cheats used with FPS games with the UO program is utterly ********.

And your experience is absolutely dismal, you have nothing to really base your opinion on. And even worse, you try to downplay people who have actual experience with that exact program.

I've given you my character information. If you want to accuse me of something formally, do it. You know how. To quote Dirty Harry, "Go ahead, make my day." If you are worried that I haven't given you my genuine character information there are plenty of people that frequent these forums who know me and can vouch for it's authenticity.

Which is a worthless tactics on your part. There's no place to report you, no place to check if you have multiple accounts or other chars you use for it.

And hell, if I could get you banned, then you could have had the superguy banned a long time ago, LOL.

 

[Arcus]

Status: Pending

 

[Llewen]

Not to accuse you of being dense or anything...but what the hell does VB or Java have to do with the program that shall not be named?

It is significantly slower, its an ancient program with an ancient custom language that tries to interface with the UO Client in a custom script language in a single thread.

You're speaking of things that this program can't even do. It can't syncronize scripts. All it does in PvP are things you can already do better with your controller if you're good at PvP. Scripting is simply the lazy and consistant version.

And you are wrong. As usual you mix truth in with misinformation to give the misinformation more credibility. Yes it is true it is an "an ancient program with an ancient custom language that tries to interface with the UO Client in a custom script language in a single thread". But even with that it still processes information and reacts to it far faster than a human can. Even an old slow scripting language "thinks" faster than a human can.

Just a simple example. You create a script that cures poison. Just one simple task, and we will assume it is a well written script with no serious flaws. You put a player with that script and a good supply of greater cures in a large battle, with say twelve or more participants, and another player with greater cures but no script, the character with the script will be cured faster, and more consistently than the player without the script, I can absolutely guarantee it. I'm assuming here that both are curing poison exclusively with the use of pots.

The player without the script may cure faster than the script once or twice in say twenty incidents (highly unlikely, but it might happen), but taken as a whole the script will be far more consistent, and will cure far faster than the human will. I guarantee it. Now you start adding in greater heal potions, petals, buff pots, and bandages to that script, and assuming it is well written you will have a character that is very very very hard to kill - not impossible, but far harder to kill than a typical pvp'r without the script, all other things being equal.

I know this is true because I've seen it in action. I haven't used them myself, but I have seen it in use on other characters that I know are using them, beyond a reasonable doubt, based on their own admissions.

 

[Llewen]

Which is a worthless tactics on your part. There's no place to report you, no place to check if you have multiple accounts or other chars you use for it.

It would be a worthless tactic because I don't cheat and you have no proof or valid information of any kind whatsoever indicating that I do, and you never will. It wouldn't matter if you knew everything I had ever done since I started playing UO, and knew every character I had ever played on every account I've ever created. You have nothing other than your attempts to smear my reputation with your vague accusations and innuendos.

As for "tbpots" we will see. If the devs are to be believed, they are aware of his activities, and his day is coming. If not, well all I can do is keep the conversation going, and not let it die, and at some point perhaps decide whether I want to keep supporting a company which doesn't make any credible effort to enforce it's own TOS.

The bottom line issue here is, IMHO, that either NO PLAYERS or ALL PLAYERS ALIKE should be able to play the game just the same, either NOT using cheats or using them.

It is having some players playing the game with a handicap which is upsetting and unfair.

And popps has hit the nail on the head. The real issue here isn't even the cheating per se. The real issue is that the honest and the dishonest players are playing two completely different versions of UO, and the game the honest players are playing is a much more difficult game than the game the dishonest players are playing...

 

[Llewen]

Uhm, had you any clue, you'd know that you cannot adjust the reaction time of the scripts of that program.

Typical of the misinformation you spread.

Taken directly from a script with the comments edited out:

set %PotLag 6
set %BandageLag 0
set %ServerLag 0

There are no matching functions or subroutines in the script, so I'm assuming they are ****** native functions. That's just three of them. I'm sure there are more.

edit: And before anyone has a conniption fit, there's nothing in that snippet of code that would be news to anyone using that program, and it isn't useful or informative in anything other than a general sense to anyone who isn't.

 

[Lord Chaos]

Typical of the misinformation you spread.

Taken directly from a script with the comments edited out:

set %PotLag 6
set %BandageLag 0
set %ServerLag 0

There are no matching functions or subroutines in the script, so I'm assuming they are ****** native functions. That's just three of them. I'm sure there are more.

edit: And before anyone has a conniption fit, there's nothing in that snippet of code that would be news to anyone using that program, and it isn't useful or informative in anything other than a general sense to anyone who isn't.

LOL, all that does is allow the user to allow for a slower machine to still use pots or it will use them at the speed of a fast machine, fast connections and as such, the script will stall.

 

[Llewen]

LOL, all that does is allow the user to allow for a slower machine to still use pots or it will use them at the speed of a fast machine, fast connections and as such, the script will stall.

It adjusts the script's reaction times. Something you said couldn't be done...

 

[Petra Fyde]

This thread is getting dangerously close to containing too much information. If you must discuss the merits and drawbacks of these unapproved programs please do so in private messages.
The opening post requested information on the status of detection, I assume from the lack of official response that there is no further news at this time.

 

[Kratos Aurion]

Uhm, you're acting like running multiple scripts in sync is even possible with that program.

The only program that supports multiple scripts like that is the new EC cheat.

I do have a clue. It's called microprocessing. I can run multiple instances of that client (or completely different clients) if I wanted too. I wouldn't argue against somebody who has an idea as to how the logic and programming of that stuff works.

You act like that "client" is the only one available. Hell, if I felt like it (although I am not a programmer) I could make my own client or at least pay somebody else to make one for me using a completely different scripting language.

Uhm, had you any clue, you'd know that you cannot adjust the reaction time of the scripts of that program.

Ok I will troll this. Every action in UO is defined by an action timer. If that action timer gets changed from .5 sec interval to a .75 or a greater interval, you can specifically force the script to run in those intervals. That to me, sounds like being able to modify reaction times.

Thus, any OTHER action that can be completed within that scope of time (before the script relaunches after the interval is reached) results into adding additional actions (more script) into the mix which means your character overall is still outpeforming the player in overall functionallity.

 

[Kratos Aurion]

This thread is getting dangerously close to containing too much information. If you must discuss the merits and drawbacks of these unapproved programs please do so in private messages.
The opening post requested information on the status of detection, I assume from the lack of official response that there is no further news at this time.

While I don't disagree, scripting in general computer use is definied by the same logic. I don't see the harm in explaining the mechanics of it. It's just simple (computer) logic. No one is instructing others on how to script, how to write the scripts or where to find them, just how they work in general.

 

[Petra Fyde]

So. This thread is no longer solely UO related and is a technical discussion on programming?

 

[Kratos Aurion]

So. This thread is no longer solely UO related and is a technical discussion on programming?

Well I hijacked it like Bruce Willis for about 3 posts

I just don't see the harm in providing a technical understanding of something. It's not life threatening, people aren't going to go into mass pandemonium regarding the understanding of it, and it certainly won't bring upon the amaraggedon of UO.

As far as the cheat detection that EA has already implemented, more glory to them. It would be great if they posted actual statistics each week/month on how many they've caught using it. Though theoretically, if their software was able to detect all scripters/scripting, then the vast majority, if not all of the users using the software should already be warned/suspended/banned. Are there any acutal results as proof of this system available?

 

[Old Man of UO]

This thread is getting dangerously close to containing too much information. If you must discuss the merits and drawbacks of these unapproved programs please do so in private messages.
The opening post requested information on the status of detection, I assume from the lack of official response that there is no further news at this time.

Wait a minute... you posted a couple weeks ago that Private Messages are subject to Stratics ROC, and if someone should complain then we are subject to Stratics discipline. Doesn't that mean we CAN'T discuss unapproved programs in PM? Or didn't I understand that correctly?

 

[Llewen]

So. This thread is no longer solely UO related and is a technical discussion on programming?

You cannot discuss the subject of cheats and address some of the misinformation that is spread about them, without getting specific. LC has spread a lot of misinformation and continues to do so, it's pretty hard to expose that misinformation for what it is without getting specific. And as Kratos said, there is nothing in what I posted which would help anyone who is already using ******, and nothing in there that shows anyone who doesn't use it how to use it.

I'm aware it is a fine line, but I don't think it has been crossed here, and as I said, it's virtually impossible to deal with explicit misinformation, without getting specific yourself.

As for whether this is ot for this thread, I'm afraid I'm of the "Who cares?" persuasion. This is the way the conversation turned, and it is a perfectly valid discussion. One that needs to be had. Basically what LC and a few others are saying is that scripts are harmless, and don't give any real advantage in pvp, and the subtext is, "Leave them alone, they aren't hurting anyone."

They are wrong. Scripts can and do give a decisive advantage in pvp, and even more so in the hands of a skilled pvp'r, and even against other highly skilled opponents. LC and others are not telling the truth about this. Now whether they are doing it intentionally or not, is not for me to judge, but the fact is they are spreading misinformation.

And if the devs were to listen to them, the third party cheat detection would be abandoned as a waste of time, or nothing would be done with the information that is gathered. That kind of inaction has already done irreparable harm to UO, and it has the reputation of being a haven for cheaters as a consequence. That needs to change.

If it doesn't, I probably won't be playing UO much longer. There are plenty of mmo development teams that take cheating, and enforcing their TOS very seriously, and I would rather support a company like that, than one that doesn't enforce it's TOS and rewards dishonest players, and inversely punishes the honest players.

I'm not happy, and I'm losing patience with the situation...

 

[Picus at the office]

What is this EC script program everyone is talking about?

 

[Petra Fyde]

hmm, technically, yes. Mostly that's applied when someone attacks another via private message. Accessing someone's private messages requires their permission and a very high level of access, it's not done lightly.

Personally (and with no technical knowledge of how) I wish they could just 'firewall' the client so that nothing could connect to it unless it has the right access coding. I've no idea if that can even be done.

 

[Amber Moon]

Back from almost a year away, so I am curious. Are the search scripters now all dead? I understand the PvP guys get all worked up over scripting but there were far more influences then just those..

 

[Kratos Aurion]

hmm, technically, yes. Mostly that's applied when someone attacks another via private message. Accessing someone's private messages requires their permission and a very high level of access, it's not done lightly.

Personally (and with no technical knowledge of how) I wish they could just 'firewall' the client so that nothing could connect to it unless it has the right access coding. I've no idea if that can even be done.

Nah, not an option, but hell it would be great if it was! lol. I suppose with the current implementation, we should have more faith in developers of the game we play. Scripting is and will always be an issue for the game, and a non-issue for the people who could careless (or doesn't effect). I would just like to see a clean game again where there is legitimate player co-op, an established market with non-inflated prices (due to scripted materials and runics).

But once you "fix" the problem, then you have to deal with all the people who complain about not having the luxury of having all of those once "cheap" items becoming relatively expensive/unaffordable again.

 

[GreekHero]

LOL I love those posts. A lot of people here seem to be hiding behind their fingers when it comes to the scripting issue.

I really do not see how using auto-heal or auto-cure scripts is a big advantage. Any experienced player can beat a warrior scripter. If you cannot beat him with a mage, it is not because of the scripts nor because you're not good. It is because this item based game allows him to be immortal (same concept why my greater dragon will never die fighting 3 consta spawning mongbats) I do not see how the script's .1 second auto-cure will make a difference compared to your .2 second manual hit button cure, give me a break here). Also, I do not even see how training a skill (eg. poisoning, alchemy etc...) via scripts is an evil thing either.

The developer of the script program is spot on when he says:

"The main reason for ***'s success is because it was able to satisfy the need to automate some really boring tasks in UO while the developers did little to help you there. Even the zero-tolerance WoW has a built-in addon system which allows 3rd party code to run within WoW to simplify things for the users (and the whole thing is a great success. People love addons!). EA now finally recognizes the need for some changes to make some tasks in the game less boring but doesn't want to give you the whole thing because it would change the game and would probably be too expensive. They certainly don't want to invest too much money in a game that has seen its best days anyway."

This reminded me when I was trying to train fishing back in 2002 and recorded a macro in UO Assist and had to put a small weight on the F1 key of my keyboard instead of me having to double click constantly!!!.

Enhancements in an incomplete and broken game will always be there. I mean when I figured out that US Assist existed and what it could do I purchased it right away (I think after one year of playing UO) and completely changed my gaming experience to good. Why did I have to pay the extra $10 and those UO Assist options where not provided by UO itself? Someone, somewhere either does not care or gets paid a good commission by supplying 3rd party legal programs. You want one more service that SHOULD have been provided by UO? - UO auto map, which is not supported for almost 5 years now if I am correct. But I guess instead of the producers of UO trying to fix things and introduce features that will enhance the players' experience (almost a decade people were begging for a chat system???), they care more about what neon item would look better while bank sitting in Luna.

As others said before, if scripting was such a big issue the situation would be resolved already. Bad use of scripts though can be a big problem and the only way to really avoid the use of scripts is changing the game mechanics (random ore mining, introduction of special moves like mortal strike etc.). If it was up to me I would return back to a pre-AOS concept but history proved that instead of solving problems we keep introducing more.