Factions Statloss

[Lord Strahd]

lol

 

[Traveller]

1> Straight up eliminate it, or reduce it to anywhere from 2 to 10 minutes. Or, make it incremental in strength and/or duration.

Stat loss is there for a reason, which is to give respite to one of the sides during sigil fights. It doesn't make much sense to eliminate it. Even shortening it doesn't sound to me very effective.

2> Make statloss shorter based on the number of towns your faction controls

I am strongly against this one. It triggers a vicious circle, where the more cities you control the easier it is for you to maintain their control. If anything, the more cities you have, the LONGER you should stay in stat. Of course another kind of incentive to keep the cities despite the statloss increments should be in order.

3> Make it something you can buy off or partially reduce in duration and/or severity, with silver (e.g. a consumable you can purchase from the faction item / artifact vendor)

No definite opinion. I suppose it would be an incentive to silver farming, thus triggering more battles outside the sigil's ones. But still it feels like a rich person defeating death just because he is rich.

4> and eliminate it when the person who killed you dies

Against it. If that person dies he gets stat loss AND you get out of it, obtaining a double advantage by killing a single enemy. If stat loss is removed but the killed guy is NOT put himself in stat, it might have more merit. But that means that if you killed 10 guys you should be killed 10 times before going in stat? Mmmhhh... Too many exploits ahead....


Since I read a post of Lore Denim I am a fierce supporter of this other solution:

#5 Limit the areas in which stat loss is applied to: faction strongholds areas, the faction towns, and possibly the faction monster spawning areas.

This is because the reason for stat loss is to maintain balance and strategy in sigil fights, so there is no reason to send in stat people who are not taking part in it.

 

[Nonel]

Stat loss is perfect the way it is. It deliveres the proper penalty for being killed, and it gives PvP more of a purpose. The crap design for new bases has already made stopping a raiding force difficult, but it'll be damned near impossible if they're re-raiding every 5 minutes!

 

[A Rev]

Stat loss is perfect the way it is. It deliveres the proper penalty for being killed, and it gives PvP more of a purpose. The crap design for new bases has already made stopping a raiding force difficult, but it'll be damned near impossible if they're re-raiding every 5 minutes!

All stat loss does is force people to play defensively.

If your idea of fun pvp is chasing someone 25screens until they can get help and turn and gank then stat loss is fine for you.

If your idea of fun pvp is people actually fighting...then stat loss needs tweeking. At the moment once 1-2 people of a group die the rest flee...thats not fun!

 

[Cetric]

Errm, just a thought, i dunno how i feel about it or how anyone else would, but what if stat loss only occurred in an area around faction bases (such as during sigil defense?)

And scale down faction arties to be the same as the ones obtained in pvm.


This way, you can go out in the world and pvp as normal, have big champ spawn and field fights, and stat loss is not a penalty. But during a base fight, stat loss occurs, so that the winner can be determined so they aren't being attacked for 10 hours straight during a "res race".

The more i think about it, the more i sort of like the idea...


You would also be put in stat if you were carrying a sigil no matter where you are, or if you are killed by a sigil carrier.


I think many more people would join factions if this was the case, especially if there was a grand reward for owning the towns. because then when it was base raid/defense time, anyone in pvp would participate, but normal pvp would not be penalized because you are apart of factions.


Thoughts?

 

[Nonel]

In factions you shouldnt have to worry about chasing someone 25 screens, because no faction base is 25 screens long. If you want to join factions to go to Yew gate, than tough titty.

 

[Cetric]

In factions you shouldnt have to worry about chasing someone 25 screens, because no faction base is 25 screens long. If you want to join factions to go to Yew gate, than tough titty.

I'm just thinking, maybe if people don't go in stat wherever they are, then there will be less smoke bombing, and animal forming, and all that good stuff.

 

[Zero Day]

Statloss needs to be reduced some.
Also Some love for faction crafters.

 

[Logrus]

So we were discussing a few Ideas and wanted to engage players for feedback:



Players in statloss can go to town controlled by their faction and pay to reduce the statloss duration for a set time.


Players will only be subjected to statloss while in the vicinity of a town sigil. (So only during capturing, defending, attacking or transporting activities would factioners be affected by statloss).
This would allow regular faction PvP to happen anywhere there wasn't a sigil, without risk of statloss.



Statloss Duration reduced to something closer to 10 minutes.


Exorcism would allow removal of ghosts who didnt have corpses in the vicinity of faction strongholds.

 

[Cetric]

Players in statloss can go to town controlled by their faction and pay to reduce the statloss duration for a set time.

Ehh, i don't see a problem with it, but i also don't think it is all that neccesary, but the more reasons to control a town, the better.

Players will only be subjected to statloss while in the vicinity of a town sigil. (So only during capturing, defending, attacking or transporting activities would factioners be affected by statloss).
This would allow regular faction PvP to happen anywhere there wasn't a sigil, without risk of statloss.

I still like this idea, this way you can participate in both factions, and regular pvp, and not be subjected to the penalty of one. Stat loss goes away in other pvp areas, so the running, hiding, and logging from stat loss goes away. This also keeps the "definitive winner" aspect of a sigil defense.

Statloss Duration reduced to something closer to 10 minutes.

I do not think this would be necessary with the other change, 20minutes actually seems fine if you change where you can go into stat loss, and you can buy down the stat loss in a faction owned town.

Exorcism would allow removal of ghosts who didnt have corpses in the vicinity of faction strongholds.

Sounds good

 

[Viquire]

So we were discussing a few Ideas and wanted to engage players for feedback:



Players in statloss can go to town controlled by their faction and pay to reduce the statloss duration for a set time.


Players will only be subjected to statloss while in the vicinity of a town sigil. (So only during capturing, defending, attacking or transporting activities would factioners be affected by statloss).
This would allow regular faction PvP to happen anywhere there wasn't a sigil, without risk of statloss.



Statloss Duration reduced to something closer to 10 minutes.


Exorcism would allow removal of ghosts who didnt have corpses in the vicinity of faction strongholds.

Um in a nutshell, yes! I'm especially on board for exorcism.

With a couple of obligatory caveats:

Vicinity of a sigil, needs some definition. Two screens, three? But this is very worth looking at. And I like the other freedoms that would be gained by it. Some thought might be given to silver farming and potential stat loss through orange mobs.

I personally don't feel very okay with using stat loss reduction as a silver sink. I think we could find better more fun and exciting ways to do that when we get a little further down the road. I'd like to see this ability tied to a reward for some action(s) in game instead, but that is just me. Allowing people to choose one way or the other might be okay. I wouldn't pay, on a ten minute timer, but, again...

 

[Cetric]

Um in a nutshell, yes! I'm especially on board for exorcism.

With a couple of obligatory caveats:

Vicinity of a sigil, needs some definition. Two screens, three? But this is very worth looking at. And I like the other freedoms that would be gained by it. Some thought might be given to silver farming and potential stat loss through orange mobs.

I personally don't feel very okay with using stat loss reduction as a silver sink. I think we could find better more fun and exciting ways to do that when we get a little further down the road. I'd like to see this ability tied to a reward for some action(s) in game instead, but that is just me. Allowing people to choose one way or the other might be okay. I wouldn't pay, on a ten minute timer, but, again...

Right probably one or the other, either 10min reduced timer, or you can buy it down in a faction town from 20mins.

Also could do the "for every city your faction controls, shave a minute or 2 off your stat timer as well."


Either way, like the stat loss freedom away form sigils idea.

 

[Viquire]

What about this, just throwing it out there, what if a pally char in a matching faction was able to noble sacrifice several folks out of stat unless the pally was already in stat, thus taking their own stat loss onto himself. And pallys in stat could tithe silver to reduce their own timer?

*shrugs*

 

[Traveller]

Players in statloss can go to town controlled by their faction and pay to reduce the statloss duration for a set time.

I disagree. It has two detrimental effects:

1) The rich does not need to fear death. The poor still does. Death was supposed to be the great equalizer.

2) Factions owning some cities have it easier defending them. Can't you see the vicious circle it would create? You get the cities, so you don't need to fear stat, so you can defend the sigils more easily and nobody can manage to get the cities back...

Players will only be subjected to statloss while in the vicinity of a town sigil. (So only during capturing, defending, attacking or transporting activities would factioners be affected by statloss).
This would allow regular faction PvP to happen anywhere there wasn't a sigil, without risk of statloss.

This is a good suggestion because I think it acts on the specific reason statloss has been introduced in the first place. Stat loss is necessary to give meaning to strategy and superior defense in sigil battles. So it makes sense for it to stay there during the sigil battles. In other situations its presence is not that important and its absence would foster more casual pvp. So, if you are in a faction and enjoy casual pvp you can still go looking for a fight in dungeons and champs without worrying about going in stat.

I would however still expand a little bit on it saying that stat loss should occur not only in the vicinity of a sigil, but also in the vicinity of sigil areas, i.e. faction towns and factions strongholds, even if no sigil is inside them. If you went to scout an enemy stronghold, and nothing is there, and you get killed, you STILL got killed in the pursuit of sigils, even though at the moment they were not there, isn't it?

Statloss Duration reduced to something closer to 10 minutes.

I think that statloss reduction is the wrong way to go. Either you remove it entirely, or you keep it almost as it is. If you reduce stat so that it's almost the time you need to restock, it actually means that it's not affecting the outcome of the sigil battles, which means it might be eliminated all together.

Exorcism would allow removal of ghosts who didnt have corpses in the vicinity of faction strongholds.

Definite yes. Possibly even people WITH corpses in the vicinity of the faction stronghold. If you want intelligence get a stealther, unkillable pass-through-doors scouts are something that shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Chap]

Players will only be subjected to statloss while in the vicinity of a town sigil. (So only during capturing, defending, attacking or transporting activities would factioners be affected by statloss).
This would allow regular faction PvP to happen anywhere there wasn't a sigil, without risk of statloss.

Very good idea. But might be a challenge to complete. What is "vicinity"? 10 tiles, 100tiles? or dmg/heal a sigil carrier?
How about this: No statloss in dungeons or t2a. This would allow factions to fight over champs without fearing statloss. While in fell you get statloss. Im thinking this because its more easy to comprehend for the players.

Statloss Duration reduced to something closer to 10 minutes.

Deal. Dont go under 10 though! I love hardcore environments, gives a greater feel of victory and practical function in raid/defending.
Or maybe even make statloss a prize itself, the faction controlling the most towns at a given time decides the duration of statloss. min 10 - max 15?

Exorcism =

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

This is a repost from another forum but I was asked by a few people to place it in this thread and I have edited in Dev feedback and response:

Let’s talk about penalties for death, casual versus hardcore, and faction territory control.

I think the debate of stat loss is key. It is the one issue that always seems to divide people that are willing to play factions vs. people who are unwilling. It does seem there is common ground on both sides that if stat loss were to be greatly shortened/removed, a comparable system would have to take its place to prevent faction base defenses and town control from becoming meaningless, non tactical, res and repeat battles where outcome would be controlled by volume of players and time available to those players rather then the tactical team work that separates factions from run of the mill pvp(and when I say team work I am including everyone from the most uber of pvpers to those non pvpers who make/remove traps, steal sigils, brew potions, bring in bandages, repair damaged armor, bake cakes, etc.)

I am an original faction player and so my natural inclination is to defend the stat loss system. This does not mean I am not open to adaptation or a move away from stat loss, only that I have seen importance it plays in a faction battle as well as experiencing the frustration it can lead to when engaged in non faction activities such as dueling, hunting, spawning, tournaments, etc (a personal favorite is getting dying to a red and resing only to take a pop shot from a hidden oj upon resing).

I think a few of the hardcore faction players have summed up the reasons for stat loss and the non stat loss people have come up with some great adaptations that can create a new middle ground.

Locations Stat Loss is Important: Strongholds, Faction Towns and Silver Monster Spawns.

Faction Strongholds: Keep timers 20 mins for strongholds with possible incentives to lower the timer to 15 min. for stronghold defenders (stronghold zone should begin at the passes where faction signup stones are located).

Towns and Silver Monster Spawns: Dangerous area's for enemies of the controlling faction. Shorter timers for controlling faction members. 5 min stat for town controllers (or allied creature area), 20 min stat for enemies (or enemy creature area). [Entering a controlled town will not lower your stat timer if you died elsewhere, but it will provide a safer area to recover since the town is under your factions control]

Players in statloss can go to town controlled by their faction and pay to reduce the statloss duration for a set time.

Potential Imbalance: I see an game imbalance here where people raiding a base, send ghosts to a controlled town so soldiers can get back into the fight almost immediately. It would be a means for the larger, more power factions to kill off smaller/weaker faction and eliminate their chances of securing towns. Sigil defenses should be balanced regardless of town control with small incentives to the Defenders, not the attackers.

Locations where stat loss is a burden and would not impact the Spirit of Factions: Dungeons, wilds, non faction towns, homes, etc.

Suggestion: Timer of 5 mins, reduced by one min for each town the faction currently controls. (There is still something to be said about the pre-emptive strike at a gate or enemy's home where people may be gathering to raid, or maintaining some elevated elements of risk by being a member of a faction and some non power based incentive to encourage members of a faction to participate in sigil raids and defenses for their own benefit)

**Adaptation notes: Added pvm element of silver spawns, did not tie town control to stronghold timers to make sure regardless of a factions size or resources it would have a fair chance at corrupting a town.... In addition defending sigils is harder (esp. with the new base designs) that a timer reduction for defenders might provide a measure of balance (suggestions were tied to silver or town control).

Players will only be subjected to statloss while in the vicinity of a town sigil. (So only during capturing, defending, attacking or transporting activities would factioners be affected by statloss).
This would allow regular faction PvP to happen anywhere there wasn't a sigil, without risk of statloss.

Against the Spirit of Factions: Removing stat loss timers when not engaged in sigil defense and towns will encourage people to join factions and avoid those areas. It would create a second class Trammy who instead of simply wearing faction arti's and riding horses in tram, you would have a Fel group who uses and wears faction items in safe Fel areas with no incentive to take part in the spirit of factions.

Answer to Tinkz Question: Yes, controlling all 5 towns would give those faction members no stat loss. I reduced the time to 5 (from 8) after reading the Devs and player feedback. The difference between having 5 or more towns would be less of an advantage. Also this timer reduction only applies outside of faction areas. Keeping some potential stat timer linked to town control will promote pure pvpers in the system to engage in sigil raids and defenses as it has their best interest at heart to care.

It is also the next step of faction conquest, secure your base, secure the towns and last secure the world... Gates, countryside, dungeons, etc, Remember this..

 

[Cetric]

Good idea Lore, i think have stat loss come into play around/from faction monsters is a key too. Going to and finding someone farming demons for silver is a common thing, and dieing should be be penalized. So far this is shaping up to be a pretty fair stat loss system imo, but with this, i do not believe there is a reason to lower stat loss. The only conceivable thing i could think of for lowering stat loss would be that your stat loss timer goes down 1 minute per town your faction owns. and keep the standard timer at 20minutes.



I do have one slight problem however, the stat loss you mentioned about 5 minutes, with that timer being wiped out if you own all 5 towns. I know on GL, yourself and the rest of the TB, are the main group that really enjoys defending the base, stealing sigs, etc. Do you not think that most groups will join that faction, knowing that you guys will control the towns most of the time?

 

[JC the Builder]

Players will only be subjected to statloss while in the vicinity of a town sigil. (So only during capturing, defending, attacking or transporting activities would factioners be affected by statloss).
This would allow regular faction PvP to happen anywhere there wasn't a sigil, without risk of statloss.

I like this idea. But there are some problems.

The area of effect would have to be huge. We're talking 1,000 tiles or larger (20+ screens). Trinsic and Britain are huge cities. You also have to take into consideration battles that go on outside of strongholds.

Also, how are you going to deal with server lines? I imagine that will be an absolute nightmare to code and not worth the effort.

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

The only conceivable thing i could think of for lowering stat loss would be that your stat loss timer goes down 1 minute per town your faction owns. and keep the standard timer at 20minutes.

Personally that is how I feel about it (20 mins standard and some reduction for town control outside base areas) but it seems there is a strong group of non faction people that want to faction fight with little to no stat loss penalty regardless of how well there faction is doing in the overall scheme of facet control.

In the end I want to see factions more active and fun for more people so I can let go a little and try to find that inbetween...

5 mins seemed to be the universal "I can live with that penalty" and Dev's were considering the idea of no stat loss... The difference between a 5 min stat and no stat is signifigant but not horribly so... Figured I'd try to work them both in and tie the no stat loss to town control which might encourage more traditional faction fights at the bases.

Do you not think that most groups will join that faction, knowing that you guys will control the towns most of the time?

That is a really good question.... new factions, new alliances.... just based on the new faction names and beliefs I can see a mass exodus of TB into the Free Traders, particularly the thieves which is the foundation of TB long term sustained success on GL.

 

[Viquire]

Also, how are you going to deal with server lines? I imagine that will be an absolute nightmare to code and not worth the effort.

This could be true. It would suck to be a tile away, and not be engaged, or maybe not, depending.

 

[Viquire]

just based on the new faction names and beliefs I can see a mass exodus of TB into the Free Traders, particularly the thieves which is the foundation of TB long term sustained success on GL.

And the fact that it looks really cool has nothing at all to do with that, nope.

 

[puni666]

What about basing the duration of stat loss according to the killers rank? Higher the rank longer the stat loss?

 

[Viquire]

What about basing the duration of stat loss according to the killers rank? Higher the rank longer the stat loss?

That would equate to punishment for excellent performance. Normally I would ask about political leanings at this point.

 

[puni666]

I meant if the person that kills you is a high rank you're in stat loss longer. Not if you are a high rank you have a longer stat loss. That'd be idiotic.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

puni666, Your idea could be good or bad, it has pro's and cons, but cons tend to over ride pro's. I like it though.

I still like this idea, this way you can participate in both factions, and regular pvp, and not be subjected to the penalty of one. Stat loss goes away in other pvp areas, so the running, hiding, and logging from stat loss goes away. This also keeps the "definitive winner" aspect of a sigil defense.

Why do you keep trying to equate people "running away" so as to not die with stat loss? Before this whole Faction revamp people were still running away, smoke bombing, hiding, stealthing, ninja forming away. In normal PVP this has been an issue a lot longer than the faction hype. It is not because of stat loss that people run away, they run away because they do not want to lose, its really simple. Do you never fight non faction people? Have you never? They never ran away if you did? As far as I can tell, the tactics of the populace has not changed simply because of stat. Correction, the only part of it that has changed is a good portion of the community now stops fighting when they go into stat, thus declaring a winner, Other than that nothing has changed.

 

[puni666]

Yeah, but everything does. Honestly I find factions pointless. I have no use of the items and since I'm red when ever I pvp there's no point in joining to fight orange players.

I think the way it is atm is just fine. It was merely an idea that no one else seemed to come up with yet.

Now forcing a faction rule set on EVERYONE in fel... well that seems like a cool idea to me, but will obviously never happen.

 

[Paps]

Now forcing a faction rule set on EVERYONE in fel... well that seems like a cool idea to me, but will obviously never happen.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
this!!

 

[Lore Denin (GL)]

Puni and Paps.. statloss for all in the Fel rule set seems to be in the complete opposite direction people are leaning but it might actually be part of the answer. It’s late and I'm tired but I think the idea is brilliant.

I am not suggesting the 20 mins traditional statloss; I wouldn't be able to count the posts threatening to cancel accounts if the Devs even considered that idea however...

The 5 min statloss timer seemed to be viewed at least in terms of faction play as to not be to significant a penalty that it impeded either gameplay or gametime while providing some measure of significance for death.

If that 5 min stat timer was applied universally in the Fel rule set with 20 min timers remaining in play for faction players in the designated faction areas (Bases, Faction Towns and Silver spawns) it has the makings of a well balanced universal system. Reds, blues and oj's would share the same penalties for death, and dying would have a small but not terrible penalty for all players.

Alone a universal stat timer of 5 minutes is not enough but add Malador's idea of a no statloss area where battles could take place without penalty. This would theoretically create an area where people could get solid pvp experience, always find a fight, and have fun pvping without experiencing a penalty (other then insurance and the cost of supplies).

Fictionally and historically Buc's Den would be a perfect choice (server line wise, not so much). It’s a non faction town, and the location where traditionally UO is suppose to have a lawless, free flowing, Chaotic area.

Other options would be Serpents Hold, Nu'jelm, Cove, a remodeled Mag, or Jhelom. I suggest keeping the no penalty combat area limited to one or two locations. This would keep the action focused and provide an area where round the clock fights could be found.

From this staging ground people could move into the more challenging and rewarding areas of Felucca, such as spawns, factions, where the rewards are greater but so are the challenges and penalties but unlike now, players will have gotten a good feel for pvp in a safer environment.

In addition to a non penalty war town, it would also be important to designate a other smaller areas where people could duel without stat loss such as the Jhelom fighting pit, blackthorn's castle, top of wrong, etc.

I am not dead set on adding this to my previous post on faction statloss if there is not strong support, but personally I think this concept has a great deal of merit and even if you are initially hesitant I hope you give it some consideration.

Lore

 

[tink'r_toiz]

Personally that is how I feel about it (20 mins standard and some reduction for town control outside base areas) but it seems there is a strong group of non faction people that want to faction fight with little to no stat loss penalty regardless of how well there faction is doing in the overall scheme of facet control.

In the end I want to see factions more active and fun for more people so I can let go a little and try to find that inbetween...

5 mins seemed to be the universal "I can live with that penalty" and Dev's were considering the idea of no stat loss... The difference between a 5 min stat and no stat is signifigant but not horribly so... Figured I'd try to work them both in and tie the no stat loss to town control which might encourage more traditional faction fights at the bases.



That is a really good question.... new factions, new alliances.... just based on the new faction names and beliefs I can see a mass exodus of TB into the Free Traders, particularly the thieves which is the foundation of TB long term sustained success on GL.

Being someone that usually has 2 to 4 characters in loss, pretty much all the time at defenses, I say let the stat loss timer alone. Giving the controlling faction more power by no loss? I totally disagree. You can play in loss. Fix the issue with speeders, cheat engine use, file modifications, over powered arties, and statted players can be effective.

Stat loss in the vicinity of sigils. Worth considering but I would say stat in any faction town, faction base, maybe silver farming areas (undecided). Seems like the players would avoid being around the sigils thus reducing the base defenses to stay out of stat. Except of course the thieves who yet again would take on additional risk to keep sigils in play and give the pvpers a cause to fight for. I have to stop here and say ... there is pvp outside of factions ... there is no cause to fight for outside of factions. Those of us that fight for the good cause are the ones being asked to change to promote pvp; something that can happen anywhere in fel. And again I say, if you hit a faction stone you need to be aware that you have taken on the risk of stat loss.

Yes, the less loyal will move to whereever the power base is at the moment, I truly believe that. TB on GL, you mentioned the thieves are the core and reason for the long time control. We are a family, we are loyal, whereever we go we will go together. Where we end up will be dependent on the fiction, the reason for the new bases/groups and the cause. I am curious as to how you came to think that the Free Tradesmen would be where we could end up? To the best of my knowledge, most of us on Test Center (family of thieves) are in CV.

As we speak, I am looking over 8 sigils in the Castle that is my UO home. Not a pvper in sight, not a fight anywhere. PVPers are intensely active for a few hours of the day. The dedicated thieves are involved all hours of the day and night and the reason the sigils stay in play to provide the weekend warriors a good fight. So stat loss in the vicinity of sigils, bring it on, I am not afraid to run or fight in loss ... but then I am a one of Mark's "crappy" players and maybe I am just too unintelligent to realize I should huff and puff and rage log for dying and getting a penalty.

 

[Cetric]

Being someone that usually has 2 to 4 characters in loss, pretty much all the time at defenses, I say let the stat loss timer alone. Giving the controlling faction more power by no loss? I totally disagree. You can play in loss. Fix the issue with speeders, cheat engine use, file modifications, over powered arties, and statted players can be effective.

Stat loss in the vicinity of sigils. Worth considering but I would say stat in any faction town, faction base, maybe silver farming areas (undecided). Seems like the players would avoid being around the sigils thus reducing the base defenses to stay out of stat. Except of course the thieves who yet again would take on additional risk to keep sigils in play and give the pvpers a cause to fight for. I have to stop here and say ... there is pvp outside of factions ... there is no cause to fight for outside of factions. Those of us that fight for the good cause are the ones being asked to change to promote pvp; something that can happen anywhere in fel. And again I say, if you hit a faction stone you need to be aware that you have taken on the risk of stat loss.

Yes, the less loyal will move to whereever the power base is at the moment, I truly believe that. TB on GL, you mentioned the thieves are the core and reason for the long time control. We are a family, we are loyal, whereever we go we will go together. Where we end up will be dependent on the fiction, the reason for the new bases/groups and the cause. I am curious as to how you came to think that the Free Tradesmen would be where we could end up? To the best of my knowledge, most of us on Test Center (family of thieves) are in CV.

As we speak, I am looking over 8 sigils in the Castle that is my UO home. Not a pvper in sight, not a fight anywhere. PVPers are intensely active for a few hours of the day. The dedicated thieves are involved all hours of the day and night and the reason the sigils stay in play to provide the weekend warriors a good fight. So stat loss in the vicinity of sigils, bring it on, I am not afraid to run or fight in loss ... but then I am a one of Mark's "crappy" players and maybe I am just too unintelligent to realize I should huff and puff and rage log for dying and getting a penalty.

just as you keep making assumptions that the devs are overlooking thieves, im starting to feel slighted by you because im a pvper.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

Yes, the less loyal will move to whereever the power base is at the moment, I truly believe that. TB on GL, you mentioned the thieves are the core and reason for the long time control. We are a family, we are loyal, whereever we go we will go together. Where we end up will be dependent on the fiction, the reason for the new bases/groups and the cause. I am curious as to how you came to think that the Free Tradesmen would be where we could end up? To the best of my knowledge, most of us on Test Center (family of thieves) are in CV.

As we speak, I am looking over 8 sigils in the Castle that is my UO home. Not a pvper in sight, not a fight anywhere. PVPers are intensely active for a few hours of the day. The dedicated thieves are involved all hours of the day and night and the reason the sigils stay in play to provide the weekend warriors a good fight. So stat loss in the vicinity of sigils, bring it on, I am not afraid to run or fight in loss ... but then I am a one of Mark's "crappy" players and maybe I am just too unintelligent to realize I should huff and puff and rage log for dying and getting a penalty.

Let me first say, I love your posts ^^, more so that it is how I see it when it comes to stat, just keep playing, but in general it is always best to speak your mind in a......whats the word I am looking for, civil, that's it, a Civil manner.

I think he assumed you would end up in FT because FT = TB if I am not mistaken (currently) But given that the new names are just place holders, it is not surprising that they just inputed the names in a few places and did not do away with the old ones totally yet.

Also, how you relate being "crappy" to being unintelligent, is beyond me. People continually enjoy making a big deal out of the simplest things these people say. There was absolutely no way to put it that would have pleased the "crappy players" anything that compares a person to another person in a lesser fashion would have been insulting to "you". Also using game, or "player", terminology also seems to be in the "wrong" these days. Oh well, I know it is not just me who feels there was nothing wrong with this, I also know there are a lot of people who think it was. Then again....the other people who think there is nothing wrong with it also feel the same way you do about the terminology they just "agree" with what was said, where as I simply do not believe the choice of words should be misconstrued for intent to harm.

 

[tink'r_toiz]

I guess it is time I started to respond to this...

On the subject of statloss, it is something we plan to change. Currently on the Factions test center, it is 5 minutes.

There are currently several ideas on the table:
1> Straight up eliminate it, or reduce it to anywhere from 2 to 10 minutes. Or, make it incremental in strength and/or duration.
2> Make statloss shorter based on the number of towns your faction controls
3> Make it something you can buy off or partially reduce in duration and/or severity, with silver (e.g. a consumable you can purchase from the faction item / artifact vendor)
4> Shorten statloss, and eliminate it when the person who killed you dies

All of these ideas have merits and drawbacks, as well as different levels of time required to implement and test.

The purpose of statloss is to make it possible for one side in a Factions battle to create a definitive victory. It does this by weakening the losing side to the point where they have to just quit fighting for a while. The downside of it is it sucks to be weakened that much and for so long. The ability to gain control of territory comes at a cost of making players unable to enjoy their play.

So, the question to answer is, where is the balance?

On one side, UO PvP is fun while you’re fighting, but very un-fun when you lose. Insurance, item loss, having to get ressed and re-equip, etc., are all barriers that keep people from wanting to PvP. They also keep people from being able to learn PvP, without lots of support from other players. Factions adds statloss on top of all that.

Unfun when you lose. Yes indeed, it is and imo it should be. If it wasn't then no one would want to compete. It is the disappointment or exhileration that keeps humans striving to improve and compete. And you can enjoy playing in loss, I guess I just don't understand how loss is instantly equated to not being able to play or have fun.

Putting it another way, UO PvP is too hardcore. Those who have the know-how and the equipment just crush it. They kill a lot more often than they die, so it’s the un-skilled and underequipped who end up suffering the penalties more. With such harsh penalties, it is no wonder at all that people lose interest in playing Factions, or never seriously consider playing it in the first place.

Again, pvp exists outside of factions as well and without loss. And, FYI, all the people havent lost interest in playing factions because of penalties. Those of us that are dedicated still play daily, penalty or not. PVP is too hardcore ... isn't that what it is suppose to be? Player versus player to see who can kill who? This is fel after all.

One of the goals for this update to Factions is to make the system more appealing to more players. This doesn’t mean we want to make it into an easy game, or level the playing field, or make it so you can just respawn and run back in when you die. It does mean we want to look at various ways we can soften it up some so people can spent more time PvPing and less time dealing with downtime created by PvPing. We want to make it more fun, with larger and longer battles.

Soften it some ...this is Fel, not trammel. Hence the no leaves, stark appearance, sinister music. Don't soften up the environment, toughen up the players.

Come to a TB defense on Great Lakes. Even though there would be some that would argue the fielding defense is lame (tho I have seen EVERY faction use it), I doubt many would argue that we don't provide ten hours of reason to pvp. Many of us are those underskilled, undergeared players, that defend at TB base but WE find our balance by using different defense strategies and playing smarter. I understand many pvpers just want to log on and see someone die. No thought involved, no strategy, no having to stand and get out of loss. But I would say if you showed the non-faction/non-pvp/non fel players they can survive and they can "win" by disallowing the ubers access to the sigils, you would get more players. True they won't rack up the kill points so most likely they won't get any recognition as a good player but there is NOTHING more fun than to deny the self-proclaimed uber pvpers something they want. Which is to get into a base and kill everyone in sight. We don't win by beating them down, we win by being more stubborn, playing longer and playing smarter. If you read nothing else, please read this. Many of the pvpers do not want the good fight... they want to crush, destroy, dominate. They will do that by whatever means they can and a vast number of them are the ones calling for no stat loss and I suspect a lot of the changes in the bases that lend themselves to run and gun defenses. They can't get to the defenders because they got smart and learned to defend their base. Well you have opened the door for them to do just that. You are proposing changes that will significantly unbalance the defense vs. raiders. Talk to some of the pvpers, they will tell you they have NO interest in standing 10 hours do defend. They just want to see people die. The defenders that will be their victims, without ways to successfully defend will eventually have to give up leaving no one in the bases for the pvpers to slaughter. I guess at the point the defenders still win because there is no reason to fight in factions. No defenses means continuous corruption by a faction and no sigs in play but 10 hours every three days.

The other side of the balance issue is the need to be able to take enemies out of the fight in Factions. It just doesn’t work if you roll over a bunch of enemies and they just come in and roll you back in a couple minutes.

Won't happen because most raiding forces are lucky to even steal the sigils. All they want is for the defenders to reset so they can come back in and kill them all again. No stat loss plays right into their hands. You are looking to make the more dominant players/groups even more so by lowering stat too much or eliminating it.

In addition to considering ideas about modifying statloss itself, I’d like to see some ideas of alternatives that achieve the needed effect but in some other way. For example, what if instead of statloss, you were simply not allowed to approach within a couple screens’ distance of the place where you died, for ten minutes?

Then where is the difference ... the people waiting to come back either stand and wait, log off and get another char, log off totally, go to luna and bank sit ... difference here is they can go off to fight somewhere else for ten minutes. How many will bother to come back to the faction fighting?

Please discuss these things on this thread. Let’s talk about penalties for death, casual versus hardcore, and faction territory control.

Casual pvp can happen in Trammel... form warring guilds. The RP community has what I would call casual pvp often. Fights with "rules" if you will. No loss, no looting, no worries of trash talking... nice, casual pvp. Hardcore is fel and that is how it should be. You click the Fel button or step through a red gate and you have CHOSEN to accept hardcore results. NO ONE is forced to go to fel or pvp or join a faction. If they want casual, devise a working war system in Trammel for them. Let us have our world, flawed as it is.

*crazy thought time*

Ok, so a majority of pvping happens "prime time" and weekends. Maybe loss could be eliminated during 4 (or 6 or?) hours of primetime? That would be even more of a challenge for those defenders to prove themselves and mount a prime time defense taking on all comers with no loss and it would allow the pvpers to have their main hours to fight without loss. Prime time on each shard would probably be different ... like I say, just brain having a storm.... oh and you could schedule it so any defense would have to have at least an hour of its time in no loss hours....

 

[tink'r_toiz]

Let me first say, I love your posts ^^, more so that it is how I see it when it comes to stat, just keep playing, but in general it is always best to speak your mind in a......whats the word I am looking for, civil, that's it, a Civil manner.

The word you are looking for is non-typical fel resident/faction player. Indeed I am ... I am a non-swearing faction playing grandmother of three and part of the grandparent brigade in True Britainnians on Great Lakes. Yes, we are old enough to know better but here we are ...

I think he assumed you would end up in FT because FT = TB if I am not mistaken (currently) But given that the new names are just place holders, it is not surprising that they just inputed the names in a few places and did not do away with the old ones totally yet.

Possibly but since Lore is my guildmaster on one char and a long time CL of my faction I would like to hear from him incase granny just forgot to turn up her hearing aid and I missed something... *grins*

Also, how you relate being "crappy" to being unintelligent, is beyond me. People continually enjoy making a big deal out of the simplest things these people say. There was absolutely no way to put it that would have pleased the "crappy players" anything that compares a person to another person in a lesser fashion would have been insulting to "you". Also using game, or "player", terminology also seems to be in the "wrong" these days. Oh well, I know it is not just me who feels there was nothing wrong with this, I also know there are a lot of people who think it was. Then again....the other people who think there is nothing wrong with it also feel the same way you do about the terminology they just "agree" with what was said, where as I simply do not believe the choice of words should be misconstrued for intent to harm.

That was 100% sarcasm ... I cannot fight my way out of a wet paper bag but I am one of the craftier/most inventive players on my shard, hence my guild title of sneakylilgrannythief .... and very often underestimated. Which, btw, I love... *smiles*

 

[tink'r_toiz]

just as you keep making assumptions that the devs are overlooking thieves, im starting to feel slighted by you because im a pvper.

You have to admit there are far more vocal voices in the pvp sector and you are capable of speaking for yourself as you have proven by well thought out posts.

The quieter voices, imo, need more concentrated effort, that is all. And I am happy you now have a full understanding of how we have felt for years.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

That was 100% sarcasm ... I cannot fight my way out of a wet paper bag but I am one of the craftier/most inventive players on my shard, hence my guild title of sneakylilgrannythief .... and very often underestimated. Which, btw, I love... *smiles*

Ahh, sorry then....As I have mentioned before, tone is often times lost here on the internet. *smiles* fighting is not the only way to win a war

 

[Locryn Finck]

I don't know if people realize this or not but...

UO doesn't have that many people playing.

Between the x-sharding, lower subs, and expanded landmass with more activities, there just are not that many people to fight on a server at any given time.

All these changes to statloss and all the arguments for and against seem to assume that this elusive "victory" is somehow a great thing and that clearing the field of any enemies is a boon.

Heres a quick and easy way to rid yourself of people to fight in UO: Log out. Congrats! You don't have to deal with anybody!

For people that actually want to log in, pvp, improve their skills, trashtalk and raid, you don't WANT to see an empty battlefield. What is the point of a pvp system that creates less pvp? The root of that problem is statloss. I see a lot of people here so SET in their idea that it MUST REMAIN THE SAME.

People, wake up. The game doesn't have the playerbase anymore to afford statloss. Things have changed. This isn't old UO. We have to find ways to keep the pvp community engaged, not frustrated and afk.

And if you play siege - fine. Just don't think that your trivial vocal minority concerns should carry the same weight as the issues being addressed with standard shards. You signed on for a minority playstyle a long time ago - sorry.



(and again, if ultimately the decision gets made to rebalance faction artis, make other mounts in the game ressable and provide equal opportunity for non faction players then great. Keep your precious statloss - the rest of us will quit and go actually pvp.)

 

[Lord Strahd]

Good post Locryn

Here is some broccoli

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I'd like to see stat loss made into a penalty (of a much lesser duration and effect) for 'dishonourable' comabt as a deterrant against things like res killing, pots, bolas, trap boxes and other item replacing skill type things. So that its still an option just not the best one.

The current stat loss I think should be removed altogether.

 

[Cetric]

how are bolas dishonorable?

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

how are bolas dishonorable?

Good question.

As for Locryn, More of the pvp community wants statloss vs the few who don't. So who are you really trying to cater to? I understand maybe more people would pvp in general in factions with out stat loss, but then....Those people do not even pvp to begin with, so why bother trying to make it better for them?

Also, most pvpers, including so far all of the oldest ones, best ones, and most active in the community have no problem with the faction artifacts, many of them do not even use the artifacts as they are not as useful as You, and a very small population of others, would like everyone to think. Sure they give an advantage, but honest the advantage is minuet and not so detrimental that you can not "keep up" with the faction players. I have faction characters and non-faction characters, guess what? I do not find my faction characters stronger. Does it simply mean I am a better pvper than you? Or are you simply over stretching the situation. The faction arties made things "easy" to get right into, now imbuing makes it almost to easy to just start up a character and go. If you like actual faction play, play factions, if you do not like it, do not like stat loss, or any other aspect of it, then do not play it. It is not a forced thing, sorry.

 

[Locryn Finck]

Good question.

As for Locryn, More of the pvp community wants statloss vs the few who don't. So who are you really trying to cater to? I understand maybe more people would pvp in general in factions with out stat loss, but then....Those people do not even pvp to begin with, so why bother trying to make it better for them?

Also, most pvpers, including so far all of the oldest ones, best ones, and most active in the community have no problem with the faction artifacts, many of them do not even use the artifacts as they are not as useful as You, and a very small population of others, would like everyone to think. Sure they give an advantage, but honest the advantage is minuet and not so detrimental that you can not "keep up" with the faction players. I have faction characters and non-faction characters, guess what? I do not find my faction characters stronger. Does it simply mean I am a better pvper than you? Or are you simply over stretching the situation. The faction arties made things "easy" to get right into, now imbuing makes it almost to easy to just start up a character and go. If you like actual faction play, play factions, if you do not like it, do not like stat loss, or any other aspect of it, then do not play it. It is not a forced thing, sorry.

This post is just a factual nightmare. So much wrong in such a small space.

More of the pvp community wants statloss vs the few who don't

You can not prove that. And I can not prove the opposite. Which leaves only the merit of our arguments. I have made the case very clearly that factions are designed now to entice people to join them. Resable horses, powered up faction artifacts, etc. The incentive to join is coupled with a statloss penalty that kills action for extended periods of time. This has created a climate of boredom and survival at all costs rather than engagement and regular participation. There are two solutions: Change statloss, or remove the incentives and free people to do what they want by enabling them to achieve similar bonuses and rewards outside factions.

This is not a radical, fringe viewpoint. The goal is to create more pvp action. If EA wants factions to be the focal point of pvp in UO now, they are going to have to change statloss and penalty. This whole thread's creation already proves you wrong - those with an aggregate view from the top realize the problems this presents. And grats on being good at pvp - that isn't what this is about.

the artifacts as they are not as useful as You, and a very small population of others, would like everyone to think.

It is not a matter of how you personally use them. It isn't even a matter of how a LOT of players use or don't use them. If you are in factions and willingly use a regular set of stormgrips (-10 HCI) or Arms totem (-10 HCI) or Crystaline Ring (-3 FCR) then great. I'm sure you have a wonderful system worked out for it.

I am not talking about your ability to play without them, or their indispensable value to a template. I am addressing the policy decision on the part of the developers to use them as a carrot on a stick to lure people to factions. If they were identical, that would be one thing. But the fact that they have ANY advantage over other artifacts says to players with a competitive streak: "If you want to be the fastest, strongest and smartest, these have what others do not". If its 10 extra resists, 3 MR or 10 HCI it doesn't matter. It is the policy decision and it's wide reaching consequences. Resable faction horses also factor into this - that is a significant advantage that makes most ambitious pvprs salivate.

Your post has a very dismissive high horsey attitude toward it and frankly it doesn't have any bearing in what is being talked about. Attitudes like that are static, and don't help. UO is a small game now, with a small community. We need to squeeze every last bit of action we can out of it - statloss doesn't do that. Incentivizing faction play for the sake of item advantage only worsens the problem. If people want to do faction warfare, great. Defend, guard and go into statloss to your heart's content. But if EA wants it to be the go-to destination for pvp in general (a view evidenced by the incentives), they need to adjust it to create MORE action not less.

This is not a hard concept to understand, and recognizing that populations on servers are way down and people are discouraged from pvp does not in any way besmirch your ability to play without faction artis or be le37. I don't care in the least. I just want to see people playing UO and fighting without running at the first hint of trouble.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

how are bolas dishonorable?

How are they not?

What do you think someone throws a bola for, to have a duel? No. Its usually for a gank or to stick pets on you. Or otherwise tilt the odds hugely in their favour else why would they be throwing it. And as I already said its an item replacing skill. Sure both people end up on foot but its always at an advantage to one more than the other.

Don't get hung up on the wording, its just an idea, which they asked for.

 

[Locryn Finck]

Bolas at least have a downside of some kind and can not be done instantly out of stealth without warning. Sometimes you have to dismount people because of their template - I just hate seeing heavy xbow stealth archers mistaking their "playstyle" with something that resembles "team tactics".

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

So does everything.

If you don't agree fine, but imo PvP should primarily focus on template vs template, and not be affected, at least not to its current degree, by who has the most items in their pack. Sure everyones adapted and got used to it but imo it was always more fun before it was like this.

(This is getting kinda off topic...)

 

[Cetric]

How are they not?

What do you think someone throws a bola for, to have a duel? No. Its usually for a gank or to stick pets on you. Or otherwise tilt the odds hugely in their favour else why would they be throwing it. And as I already said its an item replacing skill. Sure both people end up on foot but its always at an advantage to one more than the other.

Don't get hung up on the wording, its just an idea, which they asked for.

i bola people to stop a speed hacker and or, someone who only wants to run run run. and i put my self in harms way to do it (on foot and drop my mage weapon).

I also bola people who animal form away. i also thudnerstorm to reveal stealthers.


So somehow for this, i am the dishonorable one?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Did you read any of what you quoted?

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

......

Your points all dwell from what I said, then you said you are not arguing your own points? Come now, You said you would be glad to leave factions if the artifacts were taken away, I demolished this view point and then you said you don't care if they are usable or not? People were in factions before the artifacts came. People were in factions before the announcements that factions would play a role in the events. People were in factions....Should I continue?

The proof is not hard to come by, Look at the posters, that alone is proof in itself. The number of pro stat loss vs non stat loss is not even a question on the forum, more people are for stat loss, even the less pvp inclined. If that is not proof itself, then sorry I am not willing to take the time to stand around on every shard having this conversation with everyone who plays in fel, could take me more than a year to actually get "everyone".

Two or three people seem to keep taking the stance that the inactivity, or the "running away to avoid death" is in line with stat loss, I will bring it to the table again, Did you never pvp with non faction people? Do you never? They never run away? Also more than enough players here have stated they continue to play, and pvp, while in stat, Most of the people I play with do this as well. Not saying everyone should, but if you are in factions it is understood. And again, people do not run away to avoid stat, they run away to avoid death.

SO: In summary You are saying you have to have faction artifacts to compete, but are telling me it has nothing to do with what MOST player are able to do? Or how most of the community has no need for them? I ask again, who are you catering to? It is not the pvpers. stat loss does not = run away. Try not to die = Run away.

Also, since I can not remember, resable horses were introduced into factions....when? Don't recall that being a draw, but I will give you that it can be annoying.

 

[Cloak&Dagger]

....

I have to disagree with you just slightly. Bolas, or dismounting in general is not dishonorable. It is a limiter, just like mortal strike. If I bola you it is not for a gank, it is so you can not run away. Be it if I am alone or with a group it is always a means to not allow you to run away. Usually if it is a group battle, then it is not 9v1, I feel if you can not kill a person with sufficient force then they deserve to live, but if it is 9v9, or more importantly 3v7 I will dismount people. I agree that stealth archer dismounting is a bit....wrong, but dismounting in itself is not.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

i bola people to stop a speed hacker and or, someone who only wants to run run run. and i put my self in harms way to do it (on foot and drop my mage weapon).

If they're running away from you they aren't killing you. If you bola them you have tilted the odds in your favour. Which is exactly what I said above. You used a 0 skill items to gain an advantage - the speedhacker clearly isn't at an advantage on your screen or he wouldn't be speedhacking the f away.

I also bola people who animal form away. i also thudnerstorm to reveal stealthers.

Again, you handicap something they have skill points in with a 0 skill item, you tilt the odds in your favour with an item not a skill. Not so much with JOAT but then I hadn't mentioned Thunderstorm.

So somehow for this, i am the dishonorable one?

Don't get hung up on the wording. I did put it in inverted commas to start with in the hope I could avoid writing a ton of disclaimers everytime someone takes it for a different context.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I have to disagree with you just slightly. Bolas, or dismounting in general is not dishonorable. It is a limiter, just like mortal strike. If I bola you it is not for a gank, it is so you can not run away. Be it if I am alone or with a group it is always a means to not allow you to run away. Usually if it is a group battle, then it is not 9v1, I feel if you can not kill a person with sufficient force then they deserve to live, but if it is 9v9, or more importantly 3v7 I will dismount people. I agree that stealth archer dismounting is a bit....wrong, but dismounting in itself is not.

In many situations bolas bypass an intended handicap for the thrower. Take someone with a pet (cu/dread/gd), ordinarily to use the pet they would need to be on foot as a balance for having double the potential firepower, the victim when mounted can still fight, they're fighting against the odds already but they have the fact they're mounted on their side. If you take that away it isn't balanced anymore. The victim is forced on to the defensive, if they carry on attacking the player the pet kills them, if they attack the pet the player kills them. If the tamer used a weapon to Dismount instead of the bola there would at least be the balance that they had used some of their template for it and probably lost out in another area.

I think you're mistaking my point, I'm not saying its dishonourable to Dismount, I'm saying its dishonourable to use a consumable over skill.