Crafters useful without runics, impossible?

[Coppelia]

From the last tweaks on runic tools, it seems that devs are considering runics as an obligatory path to be useful with a crafter. The little changes make low runics more interresting and high runics more powerful. That's a nice move for crafters... if you consider that runics are an obligation.

The problem of course is that those runics, which apparently are an obligation to be useful, are only obtainable by hardcore scripting (for the high-end). I must say that the blacksmith BODs are more interresting, as I was able to get a few dull copper runic hammers by a regular play, and I hope one lucky day I'll be able to get a better one. Tailoring BODs, although I have more of them that Blacksmith ones and I do low cloth BODs to restart the timer, are more hopeless for me. I'm still far from the spined runic kit. Or the cloth bless deed. How comes it's faster to farm mobs to buy one?

I don't manage to understand how devs can tell me runics are an obligation when after patiently raising those stupid skills, they are still out of reach?

And the key question is : how comes I can make spellbooks with a few mods with only the skills I raised, the system works, and for Blacksmithing and Tailoring I need runics? And it's fortunate I don't have Bowcrafting, because that's even more insulting.
Why can't we have craft without runics?


NB: It would work too if runics were reasonnably obtainable when you have the skill.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

I am on the same page with you.

I think it is time they consider putting the Runic Tools on the Tinkers List.

 

[silent]

Crafters can learn recipes and make "special" items with mods without using a runic. But yes overall even before the runic changes making anything without a runic was only good for gaining skill.

 

[Emil IsTemp]

How i miss the days of IRON ONLY ingots, NO RUNICS, and a 35 armor rating.

 

[Setnaffa]

First of all, it is possible to get high-end runics without Scripting. It takes alot of work, but it can be done. All you have to do is have multiple BOD Runners and fill as many of the iron BODs as you can for turn-in purposes. I took 2 years to train up 28 BOD runners on two shards (about 1 a month) and I'm currently pushing most of them to Legendary (8 done; 20 to go). Anyway, that's some of the gory details, but I do get a couple Agapite hammers a month on each shard and 1 Verite every few months. I've actually completed 2 Valorite Hammers in the last 4 years.

Secondly, we've requested many changes to crafting and they recently added some of our changes. Hopefully more will follow.

One of the changes we requested that was not implemented was to let different metals add different properties. Currently, only Gold ingots add a magical property. The other ingot types only lower the weight requirements, bulk up the durability, or change the elemental damage spread. As it is, the Heartwood recipes do satisfy your request somewhat, but you still really need a Runic Hammer to make the Heartwood recipes useful.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

"but I do get a couple Agapite hammers a month on each shard and 1 Verite every few months. I've actually completed 2 Valorite Hammers in the last 4 years."

And all that effort to get an item with what 45 uses?

To play a 5 digit lotto with a 6th digit power ball?

It may be just MY opinion but there is something seriously flawed here and the best solutiuon is to either put these items on the Tinkers Make List

OR

Make them a lot easier to get

OR

Give them 100 times more uses.

 

[Farsight]

The idea behind runics is sound. I had taken a very long break from UO because I thought I had done everything etc.etc blahblahblah. When I came back after a few years, I found that my 7XGM characters weren't all that good at all any more.

The trend went through with a lot of the skills. When you get to GM, or even when you get to Legendary, the game has only just started with you. You still have to work to train your pets or collect that great armor or collect BODs to get the runics or go to heartwood for more mindless drudgery to get more runics.

Where the BOD process fails is that the good runics are far too rare to make it worthwhile for anyone to collect who doesn't have a lot of free time to play or doesn't run a script to process/collect them.

On the other hand, if the valorite hammers or barbed kits were more common (or had more charges), my warrior could find his ultimate weapon far more easily, which would give me less to do in game.

On the other other hand, the difference between 1 every 2 years and 1 every year is something that I, as a non crafter, might not even notice.

So how could we improve the BOD process while still keeping the super weapons out of the hands of the casual players? Or do we want everyone to run on an equal playing field again like we did "back in the day?"

And Emil: I did run across exactly 1 set of 36 AR plate mail back in my first year. A GM smith got absurdly lucky and made an exceptional plate mail tunic, which was either nearly impossible or quite impossible at the time (meaning he might have had "help").

 

[RenaLynne]

I dont know much about the Smithing end of runics but Ive gotten countless barbed kits over the years. Just need to collect the small bods and fill, fill, fill. It does take a considerable amount of time, but it is possible if you put the effort in. I can be very dissappointing when you put all that time in, burn the kit, and make total poo, on the other hand, once in a blue moon you will make that godly item that makes it all worth it.

Otherwise, I do agree, crafting is almost 100% runic based, especially if you want to make a profit from it.

 

[Alrich]

can always use 0.1 skill chars to get a bod every hour and a legendary to turn in. but yes, it is a lot of work. And even more ingots. TONS of freakin ingots, and then lots of clicking to fill bods, then handing in, dropping the crap rewards from iron bods and more clicking to organise the mess of new ones.

bronze and below are pretty easy to get however even for a casual bod'er (gotten plenty with a single smith) but once you hit gold and higher, those lbods are like playing the lottery for a chance to play a lottery to win what you want, and then rolling the dice again that the hammer might actually come out with something useful, instead of:

Ornate axe
Spell Channeling
SC -1
10% phys resist
11% cold resist
45% hit life leech
50% damage inc

from a high end hammer. lol.

speaking of, if hci was deemed not shield worthy why do we have resists on weapons?

 

[Theo_GL]

From the last tweaks on runic tools, it seems that devs are considering runics as an obligatory path to be useful with a crafter. The little changes make low runics more interresting and high runics more powerful. That's a nice move for crafters... if you consider that runics are an obligation.

The problem of course is that those runics, which apparently are an obligation to be useful, are only obtainable by hardcore scripting (for the high-end). I must say that the blacksmith BODs are more interresting, as I was able to get a few dull copper runic hammers by a regular play, and I hope one lucky day I'll be able to get a better one. Tailoring BODs, although I have more of them that Blacksmith ones and I do low cloth BODs to restart the timer, are more hopeless for me. I'm still far from the spined runic kit. Or the cloth bless deed. How comes it's faster to farm mobs to buy one?

I don't manage to understand how devs can tell me runics are an obligation when after patiently raising those stupid skills, they are still out of reach?

And the key question is : how comes I can make spellbooks with a few mods with only the skills I raised, the system works, and for Blacksmithing and Tailoring I need runics? And it's fortunate I don't have Bowcrafting, because that's even more insulting.
Why can't we have craft without runics?


NB: It would work too if runics were reasonnably obtainable when you have the skill.

Little history lesson.

Runics introduced. Rank and file moan and cry about 'requiring runics to compete' and 'gm armor is crap anymore'.

So then the Devs change runic armor so it only gets 6% resist boost on runic made vs 15% on non-runic. That will do it!

All it did was require better runics and nerfed spined runics into oblivion.

Fast forward 3 years later and the devs change runic intensities so they all go to 100% and now spined kits and the like are useful again.

I agree that GM armor has low value other than training suits. However, the runics are not *that* hard to obtain and even low end ones make pretty good junk.

My Pally has been running around the invasion with a katana with 38% Lightning, 30% SSI and 40% DI made from... shadow hammer. You can get those with a SINGLE BOD (no large required).

Spined kits can make 140 luck, 20% LRC pieces and they can make high resist armor. I churned out a 72 resist piece from a spined kit.

Hard to get? I have been filling old bods lying around and have 131 spined kit larges filled now.

At any rate - if you aren't up for some hard core bod running - then go out and support your local crafter. The prices have armor have dropped considerably, runics are affordable (barb ones only 2 mil now) and us crafters need some love. Buy our stuff!

It never amazes me to see people **** and moan about spending 150k on an armor piece that will NEVER GET DESTROYED if you repair it and powder it. To make 150k takes what - couple hours with a tamer? Or go to the invasion, get a shadow shield - and spam 'Selling Obsidian Shield 250k' at WBB and spend money onthe armor.

It is far quicker to get one of those than collect bods and craft that perfect piece.

Let us do our job, you do yours, and feel good about the piece you bought when you understand how hard we WORKED for the runics to make that item.

*Runs off to do more bods*

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

At any rate - if you aren't up for some hard core bod running - then go out and support your local crafter. The prices have armor have dropped considerably, runics are affordable (barb ones only 2 mil now) and us crafters need some love. Buy our stuff!

First off, I want to assert we are not specifically in opposition.

I get that there are the obsessive / compulsive button pushers (don't take it as a slam, it is just my way of characterizing hardcore tradeskill people). I really do get that is a viable means of play for people.

As long as your into History lessons

Another History lesson ....

Ok Original UO, CrossRoads of Brittania ....

We (player posters to Developers (namely DD)) want UO to have a Player Driven economy. We find this to be impossible as long as NPC's sell the same things we can make and sell. So either make the NPC prices much higher or remove NPC merchants.

Ok, now that is a most excellent idea, don't you think? (Do you feel like your being set up?)

What is ... wrong with the above Idea?

If your this far, then PAUSE and stop and think about it, the flaw is totally obvious.

The flaw is that PC Vendors are 90%+ of the time Out of Stock.

We certainly do not have the same perception of Monetary Scale. I get that established players think 2 million gp for a good suit is trivial. Really I do get that. Problem is if one is NOT established that price tags means one is going to go buy gold. Buying Gold will give yet another scripter more incentive to go Script up some ... resource.

It may be easy for an established player to say oh heck 125K for a Barbed Suit is nothing.

BUT

To a new to UO 125K can seem impossible to get in game. Again one is pushed to go buy the resource to play UO that gives the incentive for the scripters to go script farm the resources.

I dont know what it is like on your shard but on Lake Austin, I can go to Luna, suburbs and runes to other Vendor Malls and open an endless number of empty or "all I got is junk left" PC Vendors. That does NOT mean all. Some one is keeping a Vendor stocked with a Spinned Kit (Tailor) for 50K every day. Every day I go buy it. Some one put a bag of 10 Dull Copper Runic Hammers up for 6K I bought it.

The bottom line is this

A) The pricing is a slam dunk drive away for the New to UO OR Here is my Credit Card Make Me Uber.

B) Sorry but no matter how wonderful you are as a PC supplier, the overwhelming (read that as greater than 90%) of your PC suppliers are a restock once every 3 months kind of player.

B simply removes this from being an issue of pricing, it is very much an issue of availability. This is identical to the very issue that kills a Player Driven Economy. Great Idea but the implementation is flawed by the fact that people will not keep their Vendors Stocked 24/7/52/10.

If I can not get what I want (PC made) then your system has failed MY play style (given that said PC made item is required to play the game). OR said another more direct way, a failure in your play style is preventing me from playing MY play style. AND in my opinion, your play style should not be an impact on my play style any more than my play style should be an impact on your play style.

 

[Revenant2]

First of all, it is possible to get high-end runics without Scripting. It takes alot of work, but it can be done.

I cannot imagine the horrible waste of time it would be to attempt to get a heartwood runic fletching kit by working the quests like a normal human being.

And then, when you look on average at the bows that a heartwood kit produces in those handful of attempts that you get with the kit (15) it's like.. oh lord. No way, what a massive waste.

If scripters are the ones who make them available on vendors, we seem lucky that those particular ones are doing it, because that increased availability is what permits heartwood kits to even be considerable as compared with killing super-high fame monsters in serious luck suits and attempting to enhance the resulting loot.

I can't say for sure what the solution would be. I just know that this situation is twisted.... it's like the system is in tune with the demand and supply that the scripters are supporting. If they somehow chop the scripters without changing other things to match, it ruins the heartwood kit due to the increase of rarity not matching up well with the usability of the bows it produces.

If every single bow came out with some degree of hit for runic swingspeed, then it would be more meaningful. It's the lack of swingspeed on so many of these bows that degrades them into trash-can stuffing.

 

[Setnaffa]

I have to agree with Theo. Runic Hammers and Kits are already easy enough to get. They do take some time and effort and the higher ones take more, but isn't that the way it should be? Do we want everything in this game so easy that there no longer is any sense of accomplishment? I say no.

And to reply the Revenant, when I said it can be done without scripting, I was referring to BODs. There is no way I could do the Heartwood quests as long as it takes to get a single Heartwood kit. I've done plenty of those trying to get all the recipes and decent crafting talismans and I've never received a Heartwood kit of any kind. They seriously need to relook at the quests. The only people doing them anymore are hidden scripters.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Do we want everything in this game so easy that there no longer is any sense of accomplishment? I say no.

And I ask you,
If the Item is only able to be made by players
AND they player that make those items do not provide the items
AND the items are required to play the game
THEN is it reasonable to deny the play style of those that choose to NOT be a trades person? In your view is this simply not even a consideration?

In many ways, this is the same game that the PKR's play.

Oh, don't impact my play style, but I WILL impact the play style of others.

I do not mean that as an attack or slam, I am pointing out that IF the items have become mandatory to have to play the higher end of the game, then players play styles are being impacted, not just by price BUT by a lack of availability of the items (the countless number of empty PC vendors).

 

[Redxpanda]

What i did was i worked my bowcraft skill and turned in the bows while i worked the skill. It wasn't the fastest way to work the skill but it was profitable in a way. By the time i was GM i has 5 runics (3 oaks, 1 ash and 1 yew). It was boring and time consuming but it worked out in my favor.

With tailoring i managed to get quite a few spined runics but never anything higher.

With Smithy i cant seem to get anything more than shadow runics and i am not about to make more smiths to gather BODs since i am currently have 7 characters that i enjoy playing (well 6 of 7 perhaps).

 

[Chrome]

I have a doubt in the current state to which runic tool is necessary to make good equipments , too.
If saying simply,　Runic's effect is much stronger than Exceptional effect.
I think a tweak of the Exceptional effect and Runic's (Magic) effect is necessary, to craft useful item without runics.

So, I want to know "What is exceptional ?".

1. Present
weapon : damage increase+35% and durability+20%
armor : total resist +15% (if using runics, +6%) and durability+20%
shield : durability+20%

2. Future (Piece of idea)
changeable base property : damage, swingspeed, STR req., weight, durability
relating with other skills : armslore, weapon skill (similar to inscribe and magery)
tendency by the material, facility and tools(not runic)
: when crafting weapon using "material A", this weapon's speed is faster than base.

 

[Coppelia]

I'm sorry Setnaffa, I'm not asking for valorite runic hammers to be given at the entrance of the mall. I'm just wondering why some crafting skills requires to play the lottery to be useful.
Just a note on the comparison with pets which need to be trained. I'm sorry but not so long ago, I went to Tokuno and tamed the first hiryu I was able to find and isolate. I stabled it for a few weeks. I've been using it the past days and it's useful right now, no training. So that may not be a good comparison.

To come back to runics. I'm truly amazed to hear that having 28 BOD runners is ok if you want to get your runics. So basically you're saying that once my character has GM or more skills, even Legendary, I need to pay more to be able to use it?
Since when it's the norm to pay for several accounts. I don't know it sounds pretty absurd on solo game to buy several boxes to be able to play the whole game, but for MMORPG, suddenly one player one account is for cheap people. Is that because the devs saw the $$$ and thought well that's a good idea?

I'm not desperate, one day I'll get a spined runic kit, and certainly a shadow runic hammer. And maybe I'll get something cute from them (read ah ha ha another resists + -26 mage weapon + UBWS). The point is : I have crafting skills that are useless without rare items. While it's ok to have the best gear through rare items, that's not the same as having the skills useless without them.
While in any game I can use the skills I learn through regular gameplay, in UO I would need either to bot (which is not forbidden, what's forbidden is to get caught remember) and/or to multiply the monthly fees (knowing I already pay more because it's funny for EA to draw the milk from the Euro cow). Waw, that sounds encouraging.
Oh wait other suggestion I noted in this thread : I could do a lot of small BODs. Yeah right, that's what I'm doing with Tailoring because it's possible to buy from NPC cheap and fill BODs requiring few ressources (bandanas, skull caps...). But as someone mentionned, I would need a lot of iron. For lots of iron ingots, I can of course buy gold with real cash, which might be cheaper than have multiple accounts, for the irony. And with the gold I buy either from NPC (faction for example), or from players (botters if I want a real supply).
And another solution I read here is to simply directly buy the runics from the botters.

But I'm sorry I don't see that as solutions. All those solutions either require a ridiculous investment with real money when I just want to play a game, or promote what's killing the game. Think a little if you think it's not too bad if you buy runics from botters after all. Yeah, it will be really cheaper in game time and game money like that. But then you actually get your runics and ignore the fact that the game is not working properly. And if you accept that, how devs will know they have to do something about it?


On a side note, don't push me on the recipes. Runic fletching kits. Tomatoes.

 

[Setnaffa]

And I ask you,
If the Item is only able to be made by players
AND they player that make those items do not provide the items
AND the items are required to play the game
THEN is it reasonable to deny the play style of those that choose to NOT be a trades person? In your view is this simply not even a consideration?

In many ways, this is the same game that the PKR's play.

Oh, don't impact my play style, but I WILL impact the play style of others.

I do not mean that as an attack or slam, I am pointing out that IF the items have become mandatory to have to play the higher end of the game, then players play styles are being impacted, not just by price BUT by a lack of availability of the items (the countless number of empty PC vendors).

Play Style? What play style? The one where you can have anything in the game without really trying? Again, I say No.

I believe there must be parts of the game that should only accessible by hard-core players (i.e. Agapite and higher hammers). Other parts of the game (i.e. bronze and Gold Hammers) can be had by mid-range players, and some parts (i.e. DC, Shadow, and Copper Hammers) can be had be all players; even casual players. That should hold true with all parts of the game or UO will start losing their most loyal and hard-playing accounts because there will be nothing to strive for.

Are Runic Hammers Mandatory? No. On the other hand, if you don't have the time to do BOD runs and BOD turn in's and you want an Agapite hammer really bad, then buy them when they become available. You can easily earn the 6 million required to buy a Agapite Hammer in 8-12 hours Gold Farming in the Fan Dancer Dojo. That's far less time than I spend gathering the BODs and filling Iron BODs to earn an Agapite Hammer.

 

[Basara]

I have 6 smith runners, 5 tailor runners, total (all with at least 70 skill), all on the same shard.I average 1-2 BOD runs per day (somedays no runs, some days 2 - and rare occasions 3). I've even gone 2-3 months at a time not doing BOD runs due to events taking all my time with combat characters.

The first 3 years, I got practically nothing as rewards - but I let my collection of BODs that did go to something, collect.

In year 4, Things started coming together; for lack of better terms, I hit critical mass. I got my first gold runic and my first 3 Barbed kits in a 3 month period.

After that, I averaged 2 barbed kits and 1 gold hammer every 4 months.

About 1 in 25 Tailor smalls, for a 70+ skill smith, is a small that will fit a Barbed kit large. While you might go 50-75 without getting one, you're also likely to get 3 from 25 trips, too (a few months ago, I got the 1 large, and 2 smalls, to finish 3 separate Barbed kit sets in turning in about 50 BODs). Note, that if you ignore the rarity levels of the different BODs, and just count the sheer number of possible smalls for the kits, compared to all tailor smalls, that number is about ONE IN TEN.

Smith BODs are harder, but the changes make it easier since February. I've completed TWO Copper EX 20 plate sets in the last 3 weeks, turning in 50-100 smalls a week - and most of those smalls turned in for replacements could have been filled by buying normal iron junk from NPCs, if I hadn't been filling them with my smiths to try to raise their skills to 120 from 70 (currently at 88, 93, 101 & 108, for the 4 in training). The hard part is making enough mining trips, in the random ore world we have today, to FILL the @#$$%@#$$@# BODs to get the rewards (I've found gargoyle picks and prospector tools, with a GM miner Paladin, more useful than going to Fel, as there's zero risk, unless I end up with a paragon copper or valorite ele when working my favorite high-payout Ilshenar site - more fun too....)

I've gotten my first +60 ASH since the BOD changes; I'm also now 1 BOD away from 2 Agapite hammers, and 2 away from a Verite. I've also gotten my first BOD toward a Valorite hammer ever, in the last 3 months.

Technically, a Gold hammer can produce a pre-change Valorite/Verite range weapon now, if you treat the 40% DI from GM Arms lore as if one of the properties one might have gotten before.

What needs to be done, to bring more parity between the two runic types, is to reduce the number of weapons BODs, and get the non-combinables out of the "armor" side of the smith BOD decision tree. Moving those shields and helms to the weapons side would make all the Armor BODs combinables (instead of current 13/24 of the 50%), and reduce the iron items down to 5-25% of the total, instead of the current 50%. High-end rewards become more common, and the mid-range rewards even more so (since one can get up to Bronze Hammers from single colored EX BODs).

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

I believe there must be parts of the game that should only accessible by hard-core players (i.e. Agapite and higher hammers). Other parts of the game (i.e. bronze and Gold Hammers) can be had by mid-range players, and some parts (i.e. DC, Shadow, and Copper Hammers) can be had be all players; even casual players.

The term you does not specificaly you the character it means a generic you the group.

Ok, fine lets do it your way. Now then are you going to guarantee everuy players access to your vendors selling these items 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year for the next 10 years? With absolutely no break in time. Charge what ever you want. BUT YOU MUST MAINTAIN STOCK PERPETUALLY.

IF you can NOT GIVE THIS GUARANTEE and the Game Designers design content ASSUMING THE AVAILABILITY of the items YOU have demanded to be ONLY AVAILABLE FROM YOU, then I would hope your open minded enough to see how YOU are demanding something that affects the play style of others.

If YOU demand to be the only source for an item and YOU can not guarantee its availability, REGARDLESS OF PRICE, to everyone that chooses to play the content that assumes its presence then YOU are a problem to the game.

This was the point of demonstrating the FLAW in a player ran economy.

If you can NOT see your impacting others then lets just agree to disagree and move on.

It is going to come off that I am insensitive to Tradeskillers. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I am pointing out to you that if you insist/demand to be the bottleneck to the overwhelming majority of players ... just playing the content, then when that bottleneck is forcefully removed, it will NOT be under your guidance or control.

ON THE OTHER HAND

If you accept you are impacting others and try to GUIDE the resolution by compromise and informed consent to changes then ... the end may be more acceptable to you.

And for the record,

You can use the ... interesting manipulative phrase Every thing Handed to you on a Silver Platter" all you want. I would like to inform you that of course it is totaly subjective to the user of the phrases definition of Easy. That has zero relevance to how others will view it. So understand this I just look dumb founded at your using such a psycho manipulative phrase when one should be trying to do what is best for the game, rather than what is good for .....

 

[Theo_GL]

Ok, fine lets do it your way. Now then are you going to guarantee everuy players access to your vendors selling these items 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year for the next 10 years? With absolutely no break in time. Charge what ever you want. BUT YOU MUST MAINTAIN STOCK PERPETUALLY.

Part of the problem with player run vendors right now is that pretty much all players are vets (read - I already have armor) and nothing wears out. Thus, the VOLUME of sales is very low no matter how wonderful your armor is for sale.

To run an effective vendor you need throughput (read - Wal * Mart). Otherwise your vendor just sucks fees esp for armor vendors where you need *alot* of stock to give people choices.

One of the better ways to attack it these days is find a crafter on your shard and commission him to build you a suit.

I just did it for a guild mate tonight who had a penchant for dying. I helped him juggle some skills and replaced his weak armor with a 70's+ suit with 30 stamina and some mana regen.

Regarding the previous comment on 'new players having to buy gold' - uh, why should they? What says you need to start with uber armor the first week you play? If thats really the goal of UO then we ought to just hand out 70's suits when you log in.

They should have to WORK for it.

I have started 'new' on other shards and used enterprising ways to get gold and then enjoyed going out and scouting vendors and such for armor to build a suit. I think that is FUN.

Maybe it depends on what you think this game is about and what is fun. If you just want to log in and be uber PVPer - then why not log off and go play Halo or something?

UO is much more about the journey than the end game. The folks that think they will log in and play the end game week one are playing the wrong game.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that - but UO really caters and is designed for folks that enjoy the journey of going from nothing to something. That is what keeps alot of the vets here.

I really think that to keep UO vibrant, there should be either some level of shard wipes or a single shard that starts over every year or something with no transfers. Everyone can start from level playing field again.

UO should also have a permenant Test Shard where all items are freely obtainable. You want to PvP from day one? Go play there - set skills, armor up with whatever you want with your barb runic with 30k charges and have at it! There is a segment of the population that would enjoy this.

 

[Killian]

The thing I don't understand about UO.. is why is everything EXTREME to the MAX.

I loved my Mule character till AOS, and even then I still played him off and on... Then Runics came.. and the.. bod's... sheesh.. well my mule went into retirement, and I am contemplating removing him as I personally will only pay for one account, and as I read one poster say " I have 28 bod runners " (not the fact you have 28, but the fact you pretty much need to have that many just so you can get something worth even doing for the nice rewards. )

I don't want to start this in to a " pre aos " ranting session, but I miss the days of when everything was balanced, Being GM ment ALOT, and where being a crafter was something to be respected as you made the best weapons and armor in the game and among other things. Running a shop from your house was more than selling over priced arty's and ZOMG runic armor!!! but it was about selling your GM marked armor and weapons knowing that your GM mark could be something that was looked for accross the lands, and your name could be it's own legend. On LS, Having some Lady Joylah clothes was like having owning a Designer suit or Dress in RL.. (at least thats how I seen it)

The bod stuff shouldn't be as crazy as it is, I would rather see BOD's just give out like, Item Bless deeds for the high end, love the colored Anvils... but I personally think this Play Extreme get Extreme back stuff has to end when it comes to weapons and armor.. runics are included in this, as well as doom and other things.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Part of the problem with player run vendors right now is that pretty much all players are vets (read - I already have armor) and nothing wears out. Thus, the VOLUME of sales is very low no matter how wonderful your armor is for sale.

To run an effective vendor you need throughput (read - Wal * Mart). Otherwise your vendor just sucks fees esp for armor vendors where you need *alot* of stock to give people choices.

One of the better ways to attack it these days is find a crafter on your shard and commission him to build you a suit.
...

Regarding the previous comment on 'new players having to buy gold' - uh, why should they? What says you need to start with uber armor the first week you play? If thats really the goal of UO then we ought to just hand out 70's suits when you log in.

They should have to WORK for it.

....

Maybe it depends on what you think this game is about and what is fun. If you just want to log in and be uber PVPer - then why not log off and go play Halo or something?

UO is much more about the journey than the end game. The folks that think they will log in and play the end game week one are playing the wrong game.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that - but UO really caters and is designed for folks that enjoy the journey of going from nothing to something. That is what keeps alot of the vets here.

...

Well it seems that the group is going to maintain a position of total denial about their failure to be able to provide items having an impact on people. One could read your reply to be that you want people to be dependant on you to be able to play, that you seek this out as your goal.

One could read that you don't want anyone playing UO that doesnt conform to your personal view of what UO is and trhey should go play Halo.

In the end it isn't any skin off my back when the groups denial leads to a blind sided nerf, it isn't like they are willing to work towards a solution that works for everyone / the game.

But please do feel free to lecture me on what UO is and who should be playing it and who should be playing Halo. That is an extremly effective form of discussion in terms of trying to get a community consensus. Far easieer than Oh say trying to address individuals concerns......

*Shrug* As I said it is no skin off my back, I just need to wait it out and when it does come and the whining begins, I will simply shake my head and wonder why people never learn from history (the PK analogy is totaly relevant).

There are two camps, those that see that everyone pays theior subscription and there fore have a right to play the game the way they see it. The other is only their play style is allowed.......

 

[Basara]

Here's a quick additional note...

6 hours after the previous reply of mine, I fill 18 BODs for POF, and turn them in - I got my second Valorite Hammer small BOD ever from the replacement BODs.

I've only gotten about 2500 BODs with my 120 smith since the change, and kept track of only the last 2100 - In which time I've now gotten 2 Valorite Hammer small BODs, after 5 years of none.

At this rate, I hope to have the full set (with or without the BOD) by the end of the year, trading any duplicates I may get for ones I need. As a semi-casual BOD filler, this drop rate indicates that someone truly dedicated to BODs (scripting or not) can probably expect a Verite or Valorite hammer about every 3-4 months, if the rate continues to hold true (and my findings are in line with the charts kept by others on the older boards).

Arguing that runics are ruining crafting is like a buggy-whip manufacturer complaining that cars should be banned because they hurt his business - when most of their competitors have already made the switch to new careers in auto mechanics, service stations or car sales....

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...
Arguing that runics are ruining crafting is like a buggy-whip manufacturer complaining that cars should be banned because they hurt his business - when most of their competitors have already made the switch to new careers in auto mechanics, service stations or car sales....

I would not argue that the Runics are ruining anything.

My argument is that IF the items made by Runics have become the Standard AND new content is being designed based on them, then the current system, in my opinion, is a bottleneck and something needs to be done to improve the flow/availability of these items.

How the bottleneck is widened is not really very interesting to me as a player. I tend to want to be self sufficient but I concede compromise is required in a community.

I am the last person that would want to affect peoples play styles, in one sense if we are a hardcore MMORPG player then we share something in common, one way or another we are an obsessive/compulsive person. It is just a matter of how that is manifested.

 

[Revenant2]

What i did was i worked my bowcraft skill and turned in the bows while i worked the skill. It wasn't the fastest way to work the skill but it was profitable in a way. By the time i was GM i has 5 runics (3 oaks, 1 ash and 1 yew). It was boring and time consuming but it worked out in my favor.

mm.

In all that time spent, you still didn't get a single "heartwood" kit (meaning, the green one, not just a runic kit gotten there in the city of Heartwood).

My understanding is that at least until recently, oak have been worthless for making bows, ash pretty close to worthless, and real usability starts to exist with yew kits. The recent changes to recipe bows to give them an exceptional chance may have helped with this, I've been wanting to roll through some ash kits on a recipe but haven't gotten time together for it, I really want to though.

Since the change to exceptional chance on recipe bows, I think that maybe the ash kit could have a use in fletching. But having said that, since the changes, I've only run through one yew kit on a recipe setting with like a 28 or 29 exceptional chance tally, and I got a small number of exceptional bows. One of the exceptional bows was almost good (heh). There's a somewhat high overall failure rate in the first place, and the exceptional chance on top of that was even lower. When you run bows like this, you have to get both a hit on swingspeed and a hit on exceptional, and then you have a potentially usable bow, and it's kinda hard to make happen, a whole yew kit didn't do it once.

I have been wanting to run through some ash kits like this, but I keep getting tied up with other stuff in-game (the endless quest of the search for the most amazing Superdragons has been distracting a bit of my in-game time, plus training up those great ones that I have!).

 

[Setnaffa]

My argument is that IF the items made by Runics have become the Standard AND new content is being designed based on them, then the current system, in my opinion, is a bottleneck and something needs to be done to improve the flow/availability of these items.

Items crafted with Runics are NOT the Standard and new content is NOT being designed based on them. I know many players who disdain Runic-made weapons and swear by their looted ones. Artifacts are quite often more powerful than any item a crafter can make. As for new content, I have no idea what content you are referring to.

My Dexxor's suit has 1 item made from a runic kit...his sleeves. Everything else is an artifact of some type.

Your argument seems to be based on giving anyone access to high-end crafting items at little or no cost. You can say that over and over again and very few players will agree with you. As far as I'm concerned the flow/availability of high-end runics is just about where it should be. They should be very rare, but not impossible to buy or receive if a player tries hard enough.

The problem I'm having right now is getting the ingots to fill them my BODs. My favorite locations for colored ore no longer exist, and I hate spending countless hours mining (I can handle countless hours filling BODs, but I've never enjoyed mining...go figure).

 

[Theo_GL]

Items crafted with Runics are NOT the Standard and new content is NOT being designed based on them. I know many players who disdain Runic-made weapons and swear by their looted ones. Artifacts are quite often more powerful than any item a crafter can make. As for new content, I have no idea what content you are referring to.

My Dexxor's suit has 1 item made from a runic kit...his sleeves. Everything else is an artifact of some type.

Your argument seems to be based on giving anyone access to high-end crafting items at little or no cost. You can say that over and over again and very few players will agree with you. As far as I'm concerned the flow/availability of high-end runics is just about where it should be. They should be very rare, but not impossible to buy or receive if a player tries hard enough.

The problem I'm having right now is getting the ingots to fill them my BODs. My favorite locations for colored ore no longer exist, and I hate spending countless hours mining (I can handle countless hours filling BODs, but I've never enjoyed mining...go figure).

My proposal is to 'bump' the mining by a factor of 4 (4 ore in Tram and 8 ore in Fel) per swing.

Think about it - with Lumberjack you get 10 logs and 20 logs in tram,fel. A bow takes 10 logs/boards. Thats one swing or .5 swings in Fel.

In blacksmith it takes 8-16 ingots for most weapons. Thats 4-8 ore or 4-8 swings in tram and 2-4 swings in fel.

You still have to ramble around to find rare ore and fail on smelting but at least with this you can get 200-500 ingots per 'spot' you find instead of like 80 before it dries up.

I agree with setnaffa ingots take forever to get and some of these bods (20 ex plate tunic anyone?) can take HUNDREDS of ingots for one bod.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

Items crafted with Runics are NOT the Standard and new content is NOT being designed based on them. I know many players who disdain Runic-made weapons and swear by their looted ones.
....
You can say that over and over again and very few players will agree with you.

Well, you clearly know everything from a factual perspective and my life experience has taught me that when confronted with someone that factually knows everything, it is best to just move on and let time present the REAL facts.

I mean we all can laugh at the fact that your whining about the availability of items being a problem for you and being real, legitimate and reducing UO's value to everyone(?) .

YET if someone says that the availability of items is a problem for them, YOU know factually that is not the case. YOU know factually that it is absolutely perfect for them and if they dont like it they should go play Halo.

I mean we all get to laugh at that right?

I am reminded of a humorous scenario at one of my clients.

We were constructing a new Accounting system for them and they had 2 newish people assigned to the construction team. We would ask them how long it would take to do a unit of work. If they thought it was interesting it would take a week ALWAYS. If they did not think it was interesting it would take them 2 months ALWAYS.

You just got to love people that manipulate a conversation vs actually conversing.

 

[Coppelia]

Items crafted with Runics are NOT the Standard and new content is NOT being designed based on them. I know many players who disdain Runic-made weapons and swear by their looted ones.

We're talking about some crafting skills. The standard for most of the craft and the new content for craft is all about Runics. Hence my thread.

Please don't derail the thread by saying I'd want to pick up my nose and get a valorite runic hammer in one click. You know that's not true. Also don't tell people to go play Halo. That's rude and pointless.

Now to continue, why does a crafting skill should need to be used with 5, 6 or more "BOD runners" for years in order to become useful and begin to hope for good things. Is that logical?
Why do I need more than my character with its longly trained skills to actually use them?

I didn't really like the AoS turn, but it's there. I don't like the spirral of more powerful players -> more powerful monsters for the challenge -> more powerful items to kill them -> more powerful players...
... but it's there! So I'd like that what my crafter can do had a sense with the way the game is taking. Or is UO becoming an awful elitist club where you spend your personal fortune to play at the top? Or you grind stupid things like mad until your eyes bleed and call it "work", arguing over the place "it's a game but hey we have to WORK for things"?

May I hope to be able to PLAY to get things?

 

[concernedplayer]

There's no way of getting away from scripters and power gamers,from being better at high end crafting.

If you make it so anyone can craft magic armor without needing a runic, then the focus will shift to whoever was able to script farm millions of leather for the most attempts for the best pieces of armor.

But scripters / power gamers are only 1% of the problem.

99%+ of the high end runics in the game (including doom artifacts and everything else) were dupes. The devs countered doom dupes by making doom artifacts drop like the pants of a cheap *****, and banning a couple of the needles in a haystack (accounts sitting on duped items) but they'll never find them all.

Instead of fixing the crafting system, I'd rather the devs start witch-hunting for the remaining treasure troves of the dupers. Or they can use the current storyline of blackrock to result into a huge explosion, wipe everything out and let everyone start over ... but only after they are damn sure there are no more dupe processes and after they commit to putting every new change through a ton of QA probing whether it will cause another new duping exploit.

Regarding your reference to spellbooks being able to craft without runics ... high end runics represent a major portion of the economy. Magic spellbooks ... I don't even think you can find one worth more than a few 100k. You look in luna you might find 1, maybe 2, vendors even selling magic spellbooks. They're barely worth it for people to sell them, obviously because nobody is participating in that part of the economy. That is my opinion of a failed system, I wouldn't want them to take that example and turn all magic crafting into the worthlessness of spellbook crafting.

 

[Lord Drakelord]

I am on the same page with you.

I think it is time they consider putting the Runic Tools on the Tinkers List.

Would be nice to be able to craft a runic tool using a tinker and say two or three mining gems? It would get more people back to mining for those gems.

 

[MalagAste]

You know one idea that would kill two birds with one stone so to speak would be to add special ingredients for making runic kits to T-maps and SoS's... that would add something for both craftsmen and Fisherman and T-Hunters..... Makeing EVERYONE happy.

Besides in all my countless hours of bod collecting, and doing the quests in heartwood I've gotten ONE runic.... that was a runic saw... it was ash as I recall.... and that was VERY early on..... since I haven't gotten a thing.... I got more runic hammers giving blackrock to hooded figures in Haven than from actual crafting.

 

[Blesh]

I cannot imagine the horrible waste of time it would be to attempt to get a heartwood runic fletching kit by working the quests like a normal human being.

I got a heartwood kit by working flechting doing quests in heartwood.


And, if people would think outside the box, KR makes heartwood questing so easy, theres no reason to script it. we're talking like 4 clicks of the mouse per quest.

 

[Theo_GL]

99%+ of the high end runics in the game (including doom artifacts and everything else) were dupes.

Total BS.

I also think its funny that two of you now have accused Setnaffa of the Halo comment. Hey! Thats me.

I know Setnaffa and I think alot alike since we are two of the elder statesmen of crafting and have crafted and done more bods than you can ever dream of - but please try to keep us separate.

He's much nicer in his reply's to you. I have less patience for people spouting off on things they know nothing about.

We don't NEED more runics in the game. They have already become overpowered with the last patch and the high end ones are already easier given the bod changes.

And as Setnaffa has correctly noted, most armor suits are half arties, ML items, turn in pieces such that crafted items are less than 50% of armor worn or less.

Stand at WBB bank and count non-crafted vs crafted items. Non-crafted wins because these arties give properties YOU CANNOT ADD WITH RUNICS. I'd love to craft a gorget with +15 dex on it but I can't so all dexers wear jackals.

Crafters have been nerfed enough. Its nearly impossible to make decent coin by crafting/selling stuff - don't make runics so cheap and easy that everyone crafts their own gear. You just killed a playstyle.

If you going to kill playstyles - please delete all tamers cause they are stupid (I hate the tamer class. Its weak. And yes I have tamers).

While you are at it get rid of IDOC's. They don't belong in the game. Simply delete all items from the game when the house falls. Thats a dumb playstyle.

Since the UO PvP is so poorly designed, lets get rid of that too. Who could enjoy that?

etc.

See? How do you like it when I attack other playstyles I have little regard for?

Leave crafting alone. Its already been nerfed to hell and back.

 

[Coppelia]

Erm... personally I use arties because they're easier to get than runics, not because they're better. While I agree that there are some arties of a power you can't reach through crafting, there are a majority of them that are not worth mentionning.

Again, I'm not for making high runics drop from the sky. But I don't think it would be a nerf for crafter to add something to craft without BODs. Even if I don't see what's making you proud to get a high runic in the current system. It's not diserved. You just shaked the jackpot's arm a lot. I don't know if you'd get runic because you had to beat a given score on a puzzle game, I would respect that.
IMO using several crafters to get BODs and/or paying more accounts to get them is circumventing the problem of the random generator by metagame methods, not beating an obstacle by actual play.

So... you can't compare to tamers who, even if game is easier for them in lots of aspects, are actually playing. You want to beat monster A to get the treasure behind it, you don't manage with you warrior so you do it with your tamer. Sure it's easier, but it's still playing. You don't pay 3 accounts full of warriors to lure the monster with some warriors while you get the treasure with another. You see what I mean?

 

[Landicine]

Running a good player vendor is hard work. Being a crafter is often hard work, and since a lot of players still view us as mules, we often don't see our efforts rewarded. I've been burned so many times by players unwilling to pay a fair price for things.

One example was a guy who wanted 10 large shadowiron stone tables. That's a lot of stone and a lot of mining since stone doesn't stack. I explained to this person I did not know and did not owe anything to that there would be gold involved in the transaction. He grumbled and went and bothered some friend to do it for free. For something like an hour of work, he wanted to pay nothing.

The same thing is true for armor vendors. I used to stock my armor vendor with tons of enhanced and runic crafted items, and none of it sold. Am I expected to take a loss so that someone else doesn't have to do any work? The same is true for runic hammers. I'd rather keep even my dull coppers which I burn through to make filler pieces to armor sets then sell for some crazy low price.

I've made some 70s sets recently with lower end runics. Without runics, you can make set with 50s-60s which on some shards, roleplayers with ROEs use. Find a group of people to craft for, or don't craft. Simple as that.

I think it is funny in the last year or two good items have been easier to get (cursed artifacts, easier to get real artifacts, staffs of pyros, turnins, better runics), and people still want to complain. If you want free runics, there is a place called test center.

With yew wood and 100 arms lore and fletching and no runics, someone can make a 50 Damage Increase Bow. Before AoS, the best bow you could find would be vanquishing (35%) and that was a nice find. There is certainly power creep in these type of games, but that's almost a design necessity: if people aren't constantly running on the treadmill, they aren't playing your game.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

I also think its funny that two of you now have accused Setnaffa of the Halo comment. Hey! Thats me.

I know Setnaffa and I think alot alike since we are two of the elder statesmen of crafting and have crafted and done more bods than you can ever dream of - but please try to keep us separate.

Yes it was you that decided to Lecture people on How UO should be played and if they dont want to play take a hike on over to Halo.

Setnaffa (did you know that multiple accounts can register here as mutliple people and be a community of one mind?) says the same thing but couched in innuendo's.

You both speak of KNOWING everything there is to know about everything.

*Shrug* I dont know maybe you do work for OSI, maybe you are THE boss at OSI, maybe YOU do call all the shots. BUT your tag here doesnt say that. Nor does Setnaffa's. As long as that is the case, theoretically (as in your only speaking with one voice) your OPINIONS are no greater or less than anyone elses.

YOU (well you and Setnaffa) self proclaim to be the Elder Statesman of Crafting. Yet neither of you have any clue (well you wont admit to having a clue) to Craftings impact on the game. As a posture that is totally dumb. If I were out after you (aka THE Spokesman for crafting), I would simply use your implication that Crafting is worthless as a reason to totally remove it from the game and feed the items via NPC's.

You need to choose which one you WILL be, A White Noise to block out any discussion of Crafting or a REAL Spokesman for Crafting and TALK to the community about their concerns and issues.

Todate I see you can answer questions, but it is imbeded with telling people to LEAVE UO.

You and Your bud Set can State the FACTS of there is no issue all you want, the reality is there is a problem. This problem will only get worse the more the designers assume the Runic made items are being used (how dumb that was to state factually that Runic items ARE NOT ASSUMED to be being used)

You state that people grind your gears when they speak of things they know nothing of. Well, how does some one genuinely not knowing something compare to a person that does know something but tells a fabrication to manipulate the conversation, that insists on using psycho manipulative phrases to demean, bully and treat people bad?

There is a problem, YOU saying there is NO problem isn't doing squat to resolve the fact there is a problem.

 

[EnigmaMaitreya]

...
I've made some 70s sets recently with lower end runics. Without runics, you can make set with 50s-60s which on some shards, roleplayers with ROEs use. Find a group of people to craft for, or don't craft. Simple as that.

I think it is funny in the last year or two good items have been easier to get (cursed artifacts, easier to get real artifacts, staffs of pyros, turnins, better runics), and people still want to complain. If you want free runics, there is a place called test center.

Are you breaking from the mold and saying that without Runics, I can make a 100 LRC suit?

Are you breaking from the mold and saying that without Runics I can craft a weapon with Mage Weapon -20, SpellChanneling, DCI 15?

Oh, you say no your not going to break from that mold? Well then lets stay on target ok? The Target being that Runics are in the game and they make items that are becoming mandatory to use to play the game.

Yes keeping a Vendor stocked correctly is a thankless task, you really thought it would be otherwise? The thankless part is why the player driven economy is so prone to failure. They think people will come, love them, worship them and fall on the ground with adoration. They dont get that. Eventually it becomes clear that they might really want to go out and do something other than constantly watch their vendor and see if anyone is going oow wow oh my god etc.

You do seem to want to join the others and say you don't like my play style then hit the road and go else where. I know perfectly well there is a TC1.

And what if my playstyle is the Loner, the one that chooses to do and make every thing his/her self. That playstyle is so totally threatening to you that you need to tell them to go play elsewhere?

So far 3 self proclaimed hard core crafters say the identical thing.

A) Play my way or leave.
B) You do not have any idea what your saying
C) I am the only one that knows the facts and you know nothing.
D) I under no circumstance will acknowledge or even talk as though there is any problem what so ever. I will belittle, demean, ridicule anyone that suggest there is.

Three people saying the exact same thing with minor to very insignificant variations.

 

[Coppelia]

The same thing is true for armor vendors. I used to stock my armor vendor with tons of enhanced and runic crafted items, and none of it sold. Am I expected to take a loss so that someone else doesn't have to do any work? The same is true for runic hammers. I'd rather keep even my dull coppers which I burn through to make filler pieces to armor sets then sell for some crazy low price.

It seems people put on their vendor the craps they don't want but that they get from their runic burning sessions. Sometimes there's a nice piece, more expensive, and I'm ready to pay the price, but generally when there's good pieces they don't stay. There's only crappy things left. It can be crazy low, if it's not better than loot, has stupid mods or too low intensity on key mods... you won't sell it.

I've made some 70s sets recently with lower end runics. Without runics, you can make set with 50s-60s which on some shards, roleplayers with ROEs use. Find a group of people to craft for, or don't craft. Simple as that.

I've been hunting with GM gear for years. It's a style, I appreciate it. But I didn't raise a crafter for roleplaying. There's no market there. RP guilds have their own crafters. And I don't even care about selling. I want to be able to craft something that has a sense in the UO of today.

I think it is funny in the last year or two good items have been easier to get (cursed artifacts, easier to get real artifacts, staffs of pyros, turnins, better runics), and people still want to complain. If you want free runics, there is a place called test center.

Again, an attempt to derail the thread. We're talking about craft. I don't care about artifacts rains. I don't care about test center, because for the thousandth time I don't want runics for free.

With yew wood and 100 arms lore and fletching and no runics, someone can make a 50 Damage Increase Bow. Before AoS, the best bow you could find would be vanquishing (35%) and that was a nice find. There is certainly power creep in these type of games, but that's almost a design necessity: if people aren't constantly running on the treadmill, they aren't playing your game.

You said it, nowadays crafter without runics are good for the UO from the past. I would like crafting skills to be adjusted to nowadays UO because it's ok, I accept the raise of power of players. I'm not asking to go back to pre-pub 3.5 when you had to throw rocks at monsters.


My point is : Runics are the only way to make good things, but Runics are not part of the crafting skills. They are a separate lottery that needs to be worked on by illogical method for a game. So you want that the winners of the lottery (particularily those cheating at this lottery) get better stuff. That's ok. As long as I can do something decent without.
Otherwise, modify it so it's no more a lottery but a crafting game where the better players get the better rewards and I'll understand that if I don't play the crafting game I can't use craft at its full possibilities.

 

[Joyous2K]

That 28 bod chars and 2 vals in 4 years makes me sad.

Anyway, my 120 tailor has never crafted anything valuable. I have never had runics. She crafts high phys resist for parry training.

Other skills should affect the properties that get put on weps/armor. If I am legend tailor and GM mage, scribe, I should be able to control traits that scribe onto the armor. Like you can select that only "Magic Traits" get applied, or select that "All Traits" get applied (if your char is looking for something else). Control of properties due to other skills would add some variability and force decision making in crafters templates. Myabe a GM swordman has a better chance to craft valuable swords. It makes logical sense to me, but maybe the bods make sense too, who knows?

no runic=worthless for a tailor

 

[Landicine]

I think all of my points were relevant, but maybe that's because I take a big picture view.

Let's break it down then into the main points: crafting requires runics to be relevant. This is almost true. Recipes can make a few interesting items, but for the most part, runics are part of it. Enhancement, one of the undervalued aspects of crafting, can make mediocre items great. I have enhanced some items I got off monsters into 85 resist monsters. No runics required. Also if you want to be a crafter without runics, go the mining/tinker route and make lots and lots of bad jewelry in hopes of one super magic bracelet.

Is there a better system than bods? Well let's talk about that...

Let's talk about craftable runic hammers. The maximum amount of ingots a person can carry is 5,000 about. Should a runic hammer be made with such a huge mass of ingots? I don't remember the going price, but I think its a few million for that many valorite ingots. It is also hours of work. What about massive amounts of gems? These would also be very expensive and hours of work. Both of these would favor scripters again. And to be fair, 3 million for an item that makes 15 high power items is pretty good. The current price is a bit higher.

The alternative is rare ingredients such as the peerless ones. I will say that another crafter I know (a purist) was furious when they made rare hides only available on higher level monsters and equally upset about the peerless reagents. It made crafters need warriors far more than warriors ever need crafters.

I don't see bods as removed from crafting. Have you see the rituals people go through in real life to make swords? Apprentices aren't allowed to touch metal for a long time. Bods are part of crafting, and those of us who are lazy and have the money tend to buy around this step. Serious crafting is the expensive hobby of my retirement. I have my crafting room with runics, ingots, gems, ancient hammers, talismans, anvils, extra tongs, tokuno dyes, dye tubs, etc. It is an expensive hobby, but it is fun to tinker.

I'll be fair, I was pretty self reliant for years. I understand that is a playstyle, but I never expected them to undermine various game systems to make my solo style easier. I lived in the early pk days, and I had tailoring. I'd run into a dungeon with a practice sword and a death robe, and make myself armor as I fought through, until someone killed me and took it. If you want to use only the items you make yourself, you are either going to have to put many many hours in or you are going to have to use less awesome items. If you want to be a super loner and not use runics, you are going to face some limitations. The same is true for those that want to make money with crafting and avoid an entire part of the system.

There is no easy fix for the bod system. If it is too easy, scripters will break it so badly it will be like life on test center. If it is too hard, no one will do it. Maybe making a system similar to Doom where every time you get a bod (but not more than a certain number of times a day to avoid abuse), you get points that add up to help you get better bods. Each great bod you get reduced the points you have saved up, but basically eventually you will great good bods.

Runics are not "part" of the crafting skills, but chivalry is not part of the swords or fencing skill, however, chivalry does make both those skills more useful. A super katana is an item separate from the swords skill, but oddly enough, it also makes it more useful. Faster casting for mages, but they have no way to get that property without rings or other items.

 

[Landicine]

I did an experiment, and this isn't the best stuff possible, but without runics, I was able to make the following set:

70 70 64 68 75
Hit Point Regen 6
Fencing +14
Lower Reagent Cost 10%
Faster Casting 1
Strength Bonus 4
Defense Chance 10%
Damage Increase 44%
Hit Chance Increase 4%

I used wood armor for the 6 armor pieces (the special woods give slightly better resists than metal and leather and bloodwood also has the nice hit point regen). The weapon is just a true assassin spike. The shield is a valorite buckler. The jewelry was crafted with the incredibly expensive magic jewelry that all tinkers get without a recipe, and while the fencing bracelet was good, I've made some real duds with this.

I believe without runics it is possible to make slightly better sets than this which is certainly better than some of the sets I see people wearing. This doesn't take into account the artifact recipes which can produce some other potent pieces.

 

[Theo_GL]

Even if I don't see what's making you proud to get a high runic in the current system. It's not diserved. You just shaked the jackpot's arm a lot. I don't know if you'd get runic because you had to beat a given score on a puzzle game, I would respect that.
IMO using several crafters to get BODs and/or paying more accounts to get them is circumventing the problem of the random generator by metagame methods, not beating an obstacle by actual play.

So... you can't compare to tamers who, even if game is easier for them in lots of aspects, are actually playing. You want to beat monster A to get the treasure behind it, you don't manage with you warrior so you do it with your tamer. Sure it's easier, but it's still playing. You don't pay 3 accounts full of warriors to lure the monster with some warriors while you get the treasure with another. You see what I mean?

What game do you actually play?

Most high end items in UO is based on RNG.

Peerless - Get a crimmy? RNG
Champs - Get a 120? RNG
Loot - Get a 3/1 jewel? RNG
Doom - Get an arty? RNG + help from point system
Bods - Get a good bod? RNG

There is effort to get good bods because you need to complete crap ones and turn them in to get more 'pulls' in the lottery.

Honestly there is very very very little 'solve a puzzle' in UO. The only real puzzle in UO is learning how to manipulate skills/items/properties to create an effective character...which... alot of people utterly fail at.

And its deserved not diserved.

 

[Theo_GL]

Yes it was you that decided to Lecture people on How UO should be played and if they dont want to play take a hike on over to Halo.

Setnaffa (did you know that multiple accounts can register here as mutliple people and be a community of one mind?) says the same thing but couched in innuendo's.

I assure you that Setnaffa and I are two different people. He runs 28 bod runners. I run 1-2 and just fill/refill alot of bods to get my pulls. He's has 2 Val hammers, I have yet to get my first but I've had two verite ones etc.

You both speak of KNOWING everything there is to know about everything.

Not true, but we do know about 99% there is to know about crafting because it is our profession and our #1 focus in the game.

*Shrug* I dont know maybe you do work for OSI, maybe you are THE boss at OSI, maybe YOU do call all the shots. BUT your tag here doesnt say that. Nor does Setnaffa's. As long as that is the case, theoretically (as in your only speaking with one voice) your OPINIONS are no greater or less than anyone elses.

No, I don't work for EA (uh, OSI has not existed in like 8 years).

However, I do communicate with the dev's via email and have helped get the following crafting bugs fixed over the past year:

1- Tailor runics losing properties (mage armor)
2 - Colored footwear larges not spawning
3 - Smith runics losing properties on SE armor
4 - Recipe's that had bugs (6% SSI max on ranger shortbow anyone?)
5 - Multiple property roll problems/dropping with recepies/runics

and the latest bugs of the repair deeds not working on non-craftable items because the code to determine the crafting deed working was not the same as the code used to check repairability with the tool (fix in Pub 53 out next week)

Have a little respect.

I'm not going to appologize for having an issue with someone that does very little crafting comming in here and shooting their mouth off about what should be changed. The scary thing is that dev's listening to this banter from the uninformed have made shortsighted mistakes in the past that took years to get corrected. I don't want to go through it again.

YOU (well you and Setnaffa) self proclaim to be the Elder Statesman of Crafting. Yet neither of you have any clue (well you wont admit to having a clue) to Craftings impact on the game. As a posture that is totally dumb. If I were out after you (aka THE Spokesman for crafting), I would simply use your implication that Crafting is worthless as a reason to totally remove it from the game and feed the items via NPC's.

We dont have a clue? We play other characters too. As Set mentioned - he is a CRAFTER and still his dexer wears one item crafted. Why? Arties/marties have killed crafting. Crafting impact on the game is minimal at best. Seriously. You need no more than 2-3 items per suit MAX that are crafted.

Take all the tamers. How many carry either a : Boomstick, swords of prosperity, staff of magi, Pyros Staff vs a crafted blade? Uh, like 90% use non-crafted item. My tamers carry swords of prosperity because I like the defense that they provide.

We are WELL aware of crafting and its role/impact on the game. It is lower that it has ever been in the 6 years I"ve played.

You need to choose which one you WILL be, A White Noise to block out any discussion of Crafting or a REAL Spokesman for Crafting and TALK to the community about their concerns and issues.

See above. Show me someone else who spent 3 years campaigning for a bug to get fixed in crafting. I know 5 SOLID crafters that have quit because of that bug and other issues. You won't thank me - but you are welcome.

Todate I see you can answer questions, but it is imbeded with telling people to LEAVE UO.

No, not people - just you. Why? This game is not what you are looking for if you think people should have uber gear and compete in the first week. If thats the case - its not the game for you. Please don't come here and RUIN the game that we like becuase you want the EASY button.

You and Your bud Set can State the FACTS of there is no issue all you want, the reality is there is a problem. This problem will only get worse the more the designers assume the Runic made items are being used (how dumb that was to state factually that Runic items ARE NOT ASSUMED to be being used)

You state that people grind your gears when they speak of things they know nothing of. Well, how does some one genuinely not knowing something compare to a person that does know something but tells a fabrication to manipulate the conversation, that insists on using psycho manipulative phrases to demean, bully and treat people bad?

There is a problem, YOU saying there is NO problem isn't doing squat to resolve the fact there is a problem.

Wow - you really worked hard there to try to use big words didn't you? Too bad your sentence structure makes little sense.

I never said runics weren't required. They should be.

Lets take a case where they are not required- spellbooks and inscription.

What can you sell a spellbook for with special mods? Virtually 0 gold except for super slayers. The only reason they have value is because it takes a ridiculously high amount of scrolls to craft one.

The rest of the spellbooks are virtually worthless. Worthless.

Would it be good for crafting for everything to be worthless? You just want to be able to buy a 20% lrc 2 MR 55 resist tunic for 5k. People can sit in the corner with a pile of leather and churn out items until they find one over the top.

Hmm - sounds like test center to me. I suggest you go play it.

 

[Theo_GL]

That 28 bod chars and 2 vals in 4 years makes me sad.

Anyway, my 120 tailor has never crafted anything valuable. I have never had runics. She crafts high phys resist for parry training.

Other skills should affect the properties that get put on weps/armor. If I am legend tailor and GM mage, scribe, I should be able to control traits that scribe onto the armor. Like you can select that only "Magic Traits" get applied, or select that "All Traits" get applied (if your char is looking for something else). Control of properties due to other skills would add some variability and force decision making in crafters templates. Myabe a GM swordman has a better chance to craft valuable swords. It makes logical sense to me, but maybe the bods make sense too, who knows?

no runic=worthless for a tailor

I agree that we should be able to 'control' the runic to a small extent.

My suggestion is being able to 'dial in' one property on the runic.
At GM - 50% chance of it being applied
110 skill - 60%
120 skll - 70% chance

Or something like that. So you could dial in 'LRC' on your tailor runic and at 120 tailor - 70% of the pieces would have that property and all others still random.

This would give you a better chance of 'replacing' or creating something for someone.

As it is now - if someone comes to me and wants a high stamina tunic - I go look in my boxes of randomly created stuff and would NEVER pull out a runic and burn charges to make it. Its too random. I could sit there for an hour and not make a high stamina piece.

I'm a crafter, not a magician. I should be able to control my efforts at least a little bit.

At least, that is what I am currently campaigning for with the dev team.

 

[Theo_GL]

I am reminded of a humorous scenario at one of my clients.

We were constructing a new Accounting system for them and they had 2 newish people assigned to the construction team. We would ask them how long it would take to do a unit of work. If they thought it was interesting it would take a week ALWAYS. If they did not think it was interesting it would take them 2 months ALWAYS.

OMG you are a staff consultant with Accenture.

 

[Coppelia]

What game do you actually play?

Most high end items in UO is based on RNG.

Peerless - Get a crimmy? RNG
Champs - Get a 120? RNG
Loot - Get a 3/1 jewel? RNG
Doom - Get an arty? RNG + help from point system
Bods - Get a good bod? RNG

There is effort to get good bods because you need to complete crap ones and turn them in to get more 'pulls' in the lottery.

Honestly there is very very very little 'solve a puzzle' in UO. The only real puzzle in UO is learning how to manipulate skills/items/properties to create an effective character...which... alot of people utterly fail at.

And its deserved not diserved.

You don't get it. For Peerless, champs, Doom and more generally loot, you have to play with your character and beat an obstacle (peerless, dark father, standard mob...) and if you manage to beat it you diserve a reward. Then your reward is random.
This is the base of game design : character - goal - obstacle - resolution.

BODs are entirely different. You go to a NPC and turn the roulette. There, the RNG is the obstacle. And IMO RNG never made a good obstacle. There's nothing at stake, no risk, and the resolution is that the server tells you if you beat the obstacle or not. You don't need a player for that. And that's why it's botted.
I'm talking about a puzzle because crafters are more peaceful playstyle, but could be challenged on reflection and/or dexterity mini-game.

 

[Landicine]

You don't get it. For Peerless, champs, Doom and more generally loot, you have to play with your character and beat an obstacle (peerless, dark father, standard mob...) and if you manage to beat it you diserve a reward. Then your reward is random.
This is the base of game design : character - goal - obstacle - resolution.

BODs are entirely different. You go to a NPC and turn the roulette. There, the RNG is the obstacle. And IMO RNG never made a good obstacle. There's nothing at stake, no risk, and the resolution is that the server tells you if you beat the obstacle or not. You don't need a player for that. And that's why it's botted.
I'm talking about a puzzle because crafters are more peaceful playstyle, but could be challenged on reflection and/or dexterity mini-game.

During Treasures of Tokuno, I wore a high luck set and killed balron after balron. Once I figured out a few tricks, it was pretty much just turning the roulette wheel for tokuno minor artifacts. Most problems in UO are only difficult once unless it comes down to a terrible RNG. PvP is probably the exception.

I think being seriously into BODs is the same way. Getting the bods is only part of it. There is sorting them, determining which are the best bet to fill (some bods are not worth doing EVER because they are a waste of ingots), getting the various resources to fill them, and filling them. While there is rarely an adrenaline rush from killing a monster, I would argue that there is certainly a character - goal - obstacle - resolution dynamic going on.

Character - crafter
Goal - some neat runics
Obstacle - Lots of crafting and BOD RNG
Resolution:
1. High level focus on filling BODs to get the top items
2. Getting your bods every 8, tossing most of them, filling the singletons that give dull copper to bronze hammers
3. Buying them with money gained from noncrafting.

I will agree that buffing up the properties of ingots and leather to be comparable to the wood items (valorite gives 13 resists, bloodwood gives 18 and hit point regen; wood items can only be worn by half the population) might be good. I agree that adding a few more recipes for armor and weapons (the old weapons like katanas maybe) would be really great. I can even see making some system that gives lower level runics from time to time for something other than BODs; however, I don't want it to be easily scriptable.

I do think that just doing away with an entire system just because it favors heavy focus and time over casual crafting would be wrong.

 

[UOGuy...]

I don't manage to understand how devs can tell me runics are an obligation when after patiently raising those stupid skills, they are still out of reach?

and now you know Why I quit playing UO... Its just One Big Lottery after another... after another... after another... after another... all with very low odds of winning...