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weapon defense

kze

Adventurer
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
i have heard if you equip a weapon you have some sort of defence. Im not talking about DCI.
Can anyone explain this ? how big the defence is?
 

DJAd

Stratics Legend
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Yea a Mage weapon.

Usually -15 or -20. You then make up the extra skill on jewels or items.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
The defence you are speaking of is melee defence and is based on your weapon skill (which is any of the below listed options).

Whatever you are holding in your hands determines the skill your defence will be based on.

Holding a sword = Swords skill
Mace = Mace skill
Fencing weapon = Fencing skill
*Any of the above with Use Best Weapon skill will use whichever of the above if any is highest
Bow = Archery skill
Throwing weapon = Throwing skill
Spellbook or bare hands = Wrestling or Defensive Wrestling (with or without a shield makes no difference)
Any of the above weapons with the Mage Weapon property = your adjusted Magery skill
*It is also possible with one of the Mysticism Masterys to have the property Mystic Weapon on a weapon which functions the same way as Mage Weapons

The defence you have is based on holding the correct item for the skill you have. For example holding a Mace weapon with 120 Swords skill equates to 0 defence, you will get hit just as much as if you were holding nothing. *For the sake of argument ignoring if it is UBWS as explained above, and the human Jack Of All Trades base 20 in every skill etc* If you were holding a Swords weapon with 120 Swords now you have some defence...

How defence works, is every time something in the game tries to hit you with a physical attack (including monsters that are Archers etc. but not including attacks like Earthquake/foot stomps etc.) the game takes their Wrestling skill (monsters in the game that use Archery still use Wrestling as their chance to hit as sometimes they can be disarmed which would otherwise render them useless, in the past the devs have made this a double edged sword often causing the monster to deal increased damage while disarmed), and compares it to your weapon skill. If both are equal there is a 50% chance the incoming attack will miss. This is why many many many players die easily to weak monsters, they have no melee defence so every mongbat in the game with 30 Wrestling will hit them pretty much every time and fizzle their spells.

This is the same mechanic in all physical attack calculations in the game including PvP. Which is why Disarm is such a powerful move, as it means the opponent will get hit 100% of the time. The only counter move to Disarm is Wrestling or Defensive Wrestling.

All weapon skills have both a 'hit' and 'defence' part with the exception of Defensive Wrestling. Defensive Wrestling uses the formula of Eval Int + Anatomy / 2 + 20 (the divided by 2 bit comes efore adding the 20 by the way) to determine the defence only part of Wrestling. In short this means having a combined 220 skill points between Eval and Anatomy is the same (defensively) as having 120 Wresting. This is obviously best split as 120 Eval and 100 Anatomy on most Mages. If you're thinking hang on! With that formula I can have 140 Defensive Wrestling if I have 120 Anatomy as well! You can't. It's capped at 120.

Mage Weapons (& Mystic) use your adjusted skill as your weapon skill. So if you have 100 Magery, and you throw on a Staff Of Magi which is a -0 Mage Weapon you effectively have 100 Wrestling (with both the hit and defence parts, so you can hit things as if you had 100 weapon skill) If you had 100 Magery weapon and equipped a -20 Mage Weapon you now effectively have both 80 Magery and 80 weapon skill. This can be compensated by plus skill items.

Defence Chance Increase (DCI) (& Hit Chance Increase for that matter - apart form in the obvious case of Defensive Wrestling) ONLY work to extend your base melee defence chance. So if you are holding a Sword and have 120 Macing and 45 HCI/DCI you effectively have 0 defence and 0 HCI/DCI, and will still get hit pretty much all of the time by anything worth getting hit by. Same with Mage Weapons/Spellbooks. If in your hands you are holding a Spellbook and a shield (for mods, as many people do) but you have 0 Wrestling/0 Defensive Wrestling it doesn't matter how much DCI you equip you still have 0 and no melee defence.

For example, monster with 120 Wrestling, player 120 Swords using a Swords weapon, 50% chance the monster will miss. This is the first check the game makes. Then it checks for DCI. If the player has 45 DCI equipped they tip the balance greatly in their favour, it is not as far as I know a straight addition, meaning 50% melee defence and 45 DCI does not equate to 95%, it works out more like 65 or 70 I think, but don't know the exact calculation involved. There's a few smart numbers guys in the warrior forum who could probably tell you if you cared to know exactly.

120 is the maximum melee defence a player can have, monsters can have a lot more.

Parrying and weapon Parry are calculated after weapon skill and DCI.

Fun facts I couldn't fit in anywhere else:
Monster special moves can sometimes still land even if the hit misses.

On my Bard I use a Heavy X Bow Mage Weapon and sometimes carry bolts, because the Heavy Crossbow has the highest base damage in the game each shot (even without any Tactics/Anatomy) is usually another 20 damage. Bards are most fun with numbers scrolling off targets and this adds to it.
 
Last edited:

kze

Adventurer
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
So for example with a necro mage without wrestling/defence wrestling holding a spellbook there is no point to stack DCI.
I didnt know this, thanks!
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Correct, you'd need a Mage Weapon, Wrestling or Defensive Wrestling for any defence at all, and only then would DCI work.
 

Dizzy

Lore Master
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Instead of a mage weapon, I'm carrying around a shield:

Soul Charge 20%
Kinetic Eater 15%
Spell Channeling
Int Bonus 4
Mana Increase 4
Hit Point Regen 3
Mana Regen 4
Lower Mana Cost 5%
Cold Resist 1%

Would it be better to switch to a mage weapon?
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Instead of a mage weapon, I'm carrying around a shield:

Soul Charge 20%
Kinetic Eater 15%
Spell Channeling
Int Bonus 4
Mana Increase 4
Hit Point Regen 3
Mana Regen 4
Lower Mana Cost 5%
Cold Resist 1%

Would it be better to switch to a mage weapon?
Yes.
 

Tuan

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Maybe we can get the post from @Lord GOD(GOD) split into it's own thread, then stickied.

Also, a reasonable rule of thumb is that each 1 point of DCI reduces your chance to be hit by ~.5%, so in the general scenario where you've got a 50% chance to be hit, adding 45 DCI would mean you'd have closer to a 30% chance to be hit.

This works when you're comparing melee skill to melee skill. I'd assume it works the same way for the Defensive Wrestling (Eval + Anat) too, but I'm not certain on that one.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
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Where I said "There's a few smart numbers guys in the warrior forum who could probably tell you if you cared to know exactly." I meant Tuan. :thumbup1:
 

Dizzy

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Ok, I ditched the Legendary Artifact shield I was carrying, and now using:

Exquisite Diamond Mace of the Vampire
One Handed Weapon
HML 81%
Hit Fatigue 50%
Spell Channeling
Mage Weapon -20
Faster Casting -1
Physical Damage 30%
Poison Damage 70%

Not great, but it's the best I have. Hard to find something with a low negative mage weapon skill combined with spell channeling.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Ok, I ditched the Legendary Artifact shield I was carrying, and now using:

Exquisite Diamond Mace of the Vampire
One Handed Weapon
HML 81%
Hit Fatigue 50%
Spell Channeling
Mage Weapon -20
Faster Casting -1
Physical Damage 30%
Poison Damage 70%

Not great, but it's the best I have. Hard to find something with a low negative mage weapon skill combined with spell channeling.
Shouldn't be that hard, you can Imbue ones with -20 and 15 DCI. You can reforge ones with -15. If you don't have a crafter lots of people sold their old 21 DCI -20's, or 2 HPR Bokuto Mage Weapons in favour of legendary artifact ones which can have mods like 9 HPR/MR etc. Try using the in game vendor search. Don't get me wrong that one is still better than using a shield without Wrestling but unless you're on a really dead shard it shouldn't be hard to find one better, or get someone to craft you one. If you can't get a loot one with MR I'd at least try and get someone to craft you one with no FC penalty and 15 DCI, they've been available since AOS. If you have any wooden ones with 1 FC you can enhance them with Frostwood to be SC no penalty. You also need to make up the skill loss on items, which again isn't hard to do with Magery ranges up to 20 on jewellery, 5 on the Treatise of Alchemy Talisman, Mark Of Travesty.
 

Tuan

Slightly Crazed
Stratics Veteran
Even if you have 0 parry, you can still carry a shield. You could reforge one for 20 DCI, then imbue spell chan, and FC and whatever else you might want, maybe some MR or whatnot.
 

Dizzy

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No bokutos for sale on Lake Superior tonight, but I probably don't need any more MR, I'm already at 28/30. I'll just keep t-hunting until I find something.

When you say "if you have any wooden ones," what item are you talking about?
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
When you say "if you have any wooden ones," what item are you talking about?
Any weapon made of wood. If you have a wooden weapon that has for example (not Spell Channel) 1 FC, -15 to -20 Mage Weapon and some other good mods like regens, then enhancing it with Frostwood will add Spell Channel -1 FC (making it Spell Channeling no penalty). Wooden weapons such as all Archery weapons, Bokutos, Staffs, Nunchaku, Tetsubo.
 

Dizzy

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Aarrgh. I used to know everything. So much as changed. I wonder how many -15 mage wooden weapons I threw away because they didn't have spellchanneling?

Thanks, that was great information.
 
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