NEWS [UO.Com] Publish 86.0.1 to TC1

[Speaking the Truth]

The point was, that your original assertion was that 55 LMC suits help mages just as much as dexxers. But that's not true, because it really only helps Mystics. It may help mystics in the field, as opposed to dueling, because the field is all about bust damage/mana, where as dueling is all about sustained damage/mana. But even if it is somewhat better for mystics, that doesn't mean it's better for ALL mages. And me running ninja on a mystic has nothing to do with that fact. And it's not .02 mana per second. Where did you get that from the calculation?
Total Regen (Non-Medable Armor):
1.6581 Mana/Sec
Total Passiv Regen (Medable Armor):
2.1831 Mana/Sec
That's not a difference of .02 mana per second. 2.1831-1.6581=0.525 mana per second... 0.02 mana per second means 1 mana every 50 seconds. 0.525 means 1 mana every two seconds. Believe it or not, that's a big deal when it comes to regen, in going with 55 lmc you are sacrificing about 25% of your regen rate. A fair trade off perhaps, but by no means equal to the benefit that dexxers get from 55 lmc. The field is all about burst damage, and 55 lmc isn't going to help a mages burst damage much. It still takes a mage over 2 seconds to cast a flame strike, and they are still going to be able to dump about 6 before they run out of mana. A Dexxer/Archer on the other hand, can now stack about 5-6 different specials at 1.25 seconds a piece before they run out of mana all while doing immense damage.

I'm not sure why you keep showing med armor when we're talking about mystics. You said giving up the med from being a human makes a big difference. I showed you studded armor with and without the med is a difference of .02 mana. Also you said a dexer regens better than a mage in studded. Again you were wrong with a difference of .6 mana per second in favor of the mage.

You keep arguing for me when you show things like med armor.
So the dexer can regen .9 mana second
a mage using med armor regens
Total Passiv Regen (Mediable Armor):
2.6483 Mana/Sec (73% of Max)Total Active Regen:
4.0508 Mana/Sec (80% of Max)
So now its a difference of 1.7 mana per second if they give up studded. No matter how you look at this the mage regens better, whether its a mystic mage in studded armor OR the mage in med armor. In either case the mages are regen mana better. You made it clear that dexers regen mana so fast, well clearly in both cases its not nearly as fast as a mage. So you are wrong AGAIN.

No one has talked about dueling so I don't know why you're bringing it up now. Last I checked as you were crying about dismount disarm splinter etc those don't occur in duels, so lets stick to the field like what you were talking about the entire time.

Its still equal to what dexers get because mages are still regening .6 mana a second more and still having every mana thing they do costing 15% less. There is no angle you can look at this and say the dexer has an advantage. The numbers are always in the mages favor when it comes to mana regen rates in both cases with med and non med.

55 LMC 100% helps mages. How can you say saving 15% on all mana abilities and spells doesn't help much? If it doesn't help much then no mystics would wear it. Yet when you look at suits most mystics are wearing it...wonder why...

 

[Revan123]

I'm not sure why you keep showing med armor when we're talking about mystics. You said giving up the med from being a human makes a big difference. I showed you studded armor with and without the med is a difference of .02 mana. Also you said a dexer regens better than a mage in studded. Again you were wrong with a difference of .6 mana per second in favor of the mage.

You keep arguing for me when you show things like med armor.
So the dexer can regen .9 mana second
a mage using med armor regens
Total Passiv Regen (Mediable Armor):
2.6483 Mana/Sec (73% of Max)Total Active Regen:
4.0508 Mana/Sec (80% of Max)
So now its a difference of 1.7 mana per second if they give up studded. No matter how you look at this the mage regens better, whether its a mystic mage in studded armor OR the mage in med armor. In either case the mages are regen mana better. You made it clear that dexers regen mana so fast, well clearly in both cases its not nearly as fast as a mage. So you are wrong AGAIN.

No one has talked about dueling so I don't know why you're bringing it up now. Last I checked as you were crying about dismount disarm splinter etc those don't occur in duels, so lets stick to the field like what you were talking about the entire time.

Its still equal to what dexers get because mages are still regening .6 mana a second more and still having every mana thing they do costing 15% less. There is no angle you can look at this and say the dexer has an advantage. The numbers are always in the mages favor when it comes to mana regen rates in both cases with med and non med.

55 LMC 100% helps mages. How can you say saving 15% on all mana abilities and spells doesn't help much? If it doesn't help much then no mystics would wear it. Yet when you look at suits most mystics are wearing it...wonder why...

Ok, just stop for a second, and consider the possibility that you just aren't getting the point... You can't simply compare the final regen rates of dexxers and mages to say that it helps mages more. Of course mages are going to ultimately have the higher regen rate; they have higher int and focus/med. What you have to do is calculate the change in rates, the old rates (40 LMC) and the new ones (55 LMC); and then compare the difference between dexxers and mages. You can't say that 55 LMC suits helped Mages more than Dexxers without looking at the old rates and comparing them to the new ones. Before 55 LMC suits mages had solid mana in the field, even a mystic mage without med. You would only really run out if you spammed big spells over and over, and the field is all about sync dumps and running, so most didn't have to do that often. they'd cast two or three big spells in a sync dump and that was it. Dexxers on the other hand had terrible mana (unless they were a death striker), and would only get a few specials off before they ran out of mana. If you did 3 specials in a short amount of time, you were usually out of mana. 55 LMC suits combined with reforged suits have allowed dexxers/archers to dump specials again and again and again. You can get off like 5-6 specials in a very short amount of time, and that not only greatly increases their burst damage (something that having more mana doesn't help mages with, only sustained damage), but it also allows them to stack abilities on targets that keep them from healing, and keep them from running; 2 of the 3 most essential ways of killing people in the open field. Killing people in the open field is all about A. Burst Damage B. Keeping them from running and C. Keeping them from healing. Allowing dexxers/archers to spam specials back to back allows them to do all of these things at once, where as mages are mostly limited to just burst damage.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

Here is my calculation for killing someone in the field: Opponenets Hit Points + How much Opponent Hit Points are healed throughout fight= Do all that plus 1 hp of damage output and you win.

Isn't this discussion on Bolas?

 

[Martell]

Well, what would I know, I'm just a hacking weaken spammer right?
Oh which btw, if you think changing your TCP settings in your registry to optimize your computer for Ultima Online is cheating using a third party program; why don't you ask it here in these forums?

Modding your art files is cheating though and your screenshots show that you do that...

 

[Petra Fyde]

Can we PLEASE get this thread back on topic? If you want to discuss topics that are not covered in the publish notes please start another thread.

 

[CovenantX]

It's bad because it makes bola's much much worse than other dismounts.

Bolas SHOULD be much worse than other dismounts, That's the point.

You keep bringing up all this other stuff, that has nothing to do with the way dismount works, like splintering weapons, 210 stamina archers/throwers, and getting dismount ganked 1v3..

I'd like to see an actual explanation of WHY a bola should be as good as a skilled version of dismount.

Just because of a bola starting a remount timer on the user when you target with a bola instead of when it lands is just the trade off for not having skills which allow you to dismount like archery/throwing or a melee skill.

If you could explain WHY a bola should be as good as a weapon-based dismount without the mention of 210 stamina archers, or anything else that's completely separate from dismount, maybe we'd have a reason to continue to discuss this, A "Mage mages dismount" doesn't sound like a valid argument to me, as it just lessens the usefulness of a tank mage which someone might be taking up those skills FOR the ability to dismount.

Just having a chance to miss (skill check) wouldn't make it useless. you also act as if you need 45% hit chance just to land a bola, you wouldn't, it would just increase your chance of it landing.

 

[Vexxed]

Well... Food for thought.

1) Are we discussing the bola change with the goal of balance in the PvP sytem as a WHOLE... . or are we simply looking at just dismounts as a single element and balancing it requirements / benefits vs other forms of dismount? I'm honestly not sure it matters to me personally what the goal is but it does matter when you look at the specific changes you plan to make.

2) Revan is basically saying nerfing bola's is nerfing mages in general (and I agree that mages are the ones who use bola's 99% of the time). This isn't a good step if you feel mages in PvP are underpowered compared to dexxers... If you feel mages have the upper hand then it's a good step towards balance.

3) If your not looking at PvP as a whole and simply eyeballing the pros // cons of the different Dismounting methods .. then YA I'd say for a consumable item that didn't take any skill bola's were OP.

Honestly imo I'm not looking at balance in the PvP system as a whole. I'm simply looking at WHY I play this game & ultimately that's because it's fun to play. That is unless I get teleport bola'ed from pretty much off my screen & then ganked. I find that LESS fun. Dexxers at least have a lesser range and are the easier to avoid. If I was fighting a 2 v 1 I would be far more worried about a guy with a bola then if it was just some dexxer. Ultimately I would much rather have a fight where things go back and forth and Dismount isn't the end all be all for "finishing" someone. Just think about all the times you have PvP'ed if you do and how many of the deaths were because you were dismounted? I'm going to bet it's waaaaaayyyyy more than 1/2 lol. It's just cheese ... and more so because the effectiveness is drastically increased when you consider any sort of gank.

 

[icm420]

I feel right now that dexxers have the upper hand in pvp, unless a mage is running parry. Not being able to overstack dci has made mages so much easier to hit, add in almost unlimited specials and shooting those specials at 1.25 seconds and it's downright ********. Even against a nox fencer, I get hit so much it's all I can do to cure the poison, and 10 cure pots at 50 ep is too many to try to chug out of. Every now and again you get the passive cure, but 8 out of 10 times that screws you because you are not counting on it.

As i said tho if you have parry it's fine, I just don't like playing a parry mage all the time.

To me the dexxer has finally surpassed the mage in terms of power and being good on a mage doesn't mean much anymore. It used to be a good mage could take on 3 people solo and have a decent shot at winning. Now your lucky to win a 1 v 1.

Just to make this clear I'm not "whining" or anything. I'm just stating the facts as I've seen from my pvp experiences in the past few months. I consider myself to be a decent pvp mage. It seems unlikely that my skills have declined so much that I could go from fighting 3-4 people solo and killing most of them, to fighting 3-4 people solo and not even being able to live for 5 minutes, let alone kill any of them.

The key difference I am seeing is that I have to spend at least 75% of the time healing now, where I used to be more like 50/50, heal/offense. Add in that the dexxers are hitting faster and harder and I'm only healing vs trying to kill as well.

Perhaps the key is in refinements, however as a mage in LEATHER you are screwed as refinements only work on non medable. I am sorry but I don't think every single mage should be in studded leather right now.

These are things that to me should be addressed, instead of bolas, dismount or vvv. I play uo to play the tamer and the mage and both have been nerfed to **** over the past few years.

Edit: I didn't mention much about tamers in my little rant, but I can't be the only person sick and tired of greater dragons and having tons of pets available but unusable.

 

[Vexxed]

Hmm.... ok put some more thought in on Bola's.

1) I agree that in PvP Dexxers have an advantage vs Mages... specifically Ranged attack Dexxers. Soooooo This means that Nerfing bola's a ton only unbalances stuff more.

• Damage while Moving
• Healing While Moving
• Excluding Disarm.. no way to interrupt their attacks. Sure stamina Determines attack speed but imagine if mage interrupts only increased the casting speed heh.

That's my quick reasoning off the top of my head. Now if your trying to balance PvP as a whole and we choose bola's as one of the things on that list I would personally make them a lot more like a Heavy Xbow Dismount.

• Shorten Range
• Has a chance to miss
• Uses a significant amount of mana.. (lets be honest it's going to be mages using them and it shouldn't be free)
• Big one.. I would make it INSTANT dismount and have the dismount timer be what Heavy Xbow timer ends up being.

So... Mage on horseback dismounts himself disarms his mage weapon and preps & Targets a Bola. This would instantly dismount his target IF he hits costing the mage maybe 30 Base mana before LMC or something. No Teleporting ... no "Where did that bola come from" Feel to the dismount. The target would be on screen the whole time and see it coming clearly and would have a CHANCE at being missed. To Determine that CHANCE.... HCI is rough to include on a mage but I'd say 50/50 % at the best if the mage has whatever we decide makes it balanced.. Maybe make it Tied to Wrestling Skill or Anat + Eval chance to evade instead of HCI. (I realize Anat + Eval doesn't allow you to hit stuff but maybe for bola's it could)

2) Not a Bola idea... but this pretty much all comes down to MOVEMENT. Nothing is more important in PvP than mobility and it's pretty much the same in any kind of warfare. I was wondering if Changing how Casting Focus functions sounds appealing to anyone else?

• Makes Casting Focus be a chance to MOVE while casting instead of a chance to not be interrupted. This would allow the "Mage Duel" he with skills aspect to allow for dominance if that's your cup of tea. (aka no more random protection effect). This would also allow Mages fighting the "OFF SCREEN KING" style of dexxer who runs away after every Explode to perhaps (if they lucky) get that random Casting Focus to kick in on a lightning bolt allowing them to effectively chase the target down. Last thought.... There could be a difference between offense / Healing spells .... Perhaps Casting Focus Allows Healing spells at a 5% higher Success chance to negate the "stopped while casting" aspect or some such?? Maybe if you have scribe.. I dunno but I like the idea more than I like negating interrupts..

All done.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Hmm.... ok put some more thought in on Bola's.

1) I agree that in PvP Dexxers have an advantage vs Mages... specifically Ranged attack Dexxers. Soooooo This means that Nerfing bola's a ton only unbalances stuff more.

• Damage while Moving
• Healing While Moving
• Excluding Disarm.. no way to interrupt their attacks. Sure stamina Determines attack speed but imagine if mage interrupts only increased the casting speed heh.

That's my quick reasoning off the top of my head. Now if your trying to balance PvP as a whole and we choose bola's as one of the things on that list I would personally make them a lot more like a Heavy Xbow Dismount.

• Shorten Range
• Has a chance to miss
• Uses a significant amount of mana.. (lets be honest it's going to be mages using them and it shouldn't be free)
• Big one.. I would make it INSTANT dismount and have the dismount timer be what Heavy Xbow timer ends up being.

So... Mage on horseback dismounts himself disarms his mage weapon and preps & Targets a Bola. This would instantly dismount his target IF he hits costing the mage maybe 30 Base mana before LMC or something. No Teleporting ... no "Where did that bola come from" Feel to the dismount. The target would be on screen the whole time and see it coming clearly and would have a CHANCE at being missed. To Determine that CHANCE.... HCI is rough to include on a mage but I'd say 50/50 % at the best if the mage has whatever we decide makes it balanced.. Maybe make it Tied to Wrestling Skill or Anat + Eval chance to evade instead of HCI. (I realize Anat + Eval doesn't allow you to hit stuff but maybe for bola's it could)

2) Not a Bola idea... but this pretty much all comes down to MOVEMENT. Nothing is more important in PvP than mobility and it's pretty much the same in any kind of warfare. I was wondering if Changing how Casting Focus functions sounds appealing to anyone else?

• Makes Casting Focus be a chance to MOVE while casting instead of a chance to not be interrupted. This would allow the "Mage Duel" he with skills aspect to allow for dominance if that's your cup of tea. (aka no more random protection effect). This would also allow Mages fighting the "OFF SCREEN KING" style of dexxer who runs away after every Explode to perhaps (if they lucky) get that random Casting Focus to kick in on a lightning bolt allowing them to effectively chase the target down. Last thought.... There could be a difference between offense / Healing spells .... Perhaps Casting Focus Allows Healing spells at a 5% higher Success chance to negate the "stopped while casting" aspect or some such?? Maybe if you have scribe.. I dunno but I like the idea more than I like negating interrupts..

All done.

But you're also forgetting that a mage can block/slow down entire groups with field spells, they can cross heal across screen. They don't have an RNG on if their spells hit or not. Also they can just heal while using summons and let the summon do damage, dexers can't do that. There is a trade off for everything.


Dexers use bolas, so every time its brought up that eval etc should be a part of it, that's just absurd. You think all melee dexers ONLY use their weapons? The good ones will use bolas and give up pack space taking bolas over pots just so they too have a ranged dismount.

So it it were like a heavy, would it also have ammo if you will. When its thrown if it hits or not it disappears? 1 time use whether it hits or not per bola?

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Bolas SHOULD be much worse than other dismounts, That's the point.

If you could explain WHY a bola should be as good as a weapon-based dismount without the mention of 210 stamina archers, or anything else that's completely separate from dismount, maybe we'd have a reason to continue to discuss this, A "Mage mages dismount" doesn't sound like a valid argument to me, as it just lessens the usefulness of a tank mage which someone might be taking up those skills FOR the ability to dismount.

Just having a chance to miss (skill check) wouldn't make it useless. you also act as if you need 45% hit chance just to land a bola, you wouldn't, it would just increase your chance of it landing.

THIS.

Ive been looking for answer to this question from him and have yet to see it. Instead we get a story how you can dodge a bola, even though you can dodge a special. Then its never said why its fair that it requires no skill points to use, no mana, and has a longer range.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Ok, just stop for a second, and consider the possibility that you just aren't getting the point... You can't simply compare the final regen rates of dexxers and mages to say that it helps mages more. Of course mages are going to ultimately have the higher regen rate; they have higher int and focus/med. What you have to do is calculate the change in rates, the old rates (40 LMC) and the new ones (55 LMC); and then compare the difference between dexxers and mages. You can't say that 55 LMC suits helped Mages more than Dexxers without looking at the old rates and comparing them to the new ones. Before 55 LMC suits mages had solid mana in the field, even a mystic mage without med. You would only really run out if you spammed big spells over and over, and the field is all about sync dumps and running, so most didn't have to do that often. they'd cast two or three big spells in a sync dump and that was it. Dexxers on the other hand had terrible mana (unless they were a death striker), and would only get a few specials off before they ran out of mana. If you did 3 specials in a short amount of time, you were usually out of mana. 55 LMC suits combined with reforged suits have allowed dexxers/archers to dump specials again and again and again. You can get off like 5-6 specials in a very short amount of time, and that not only greatly increases their burst damage (something that having more mana doesn't help mages with, only sustained damage), but it also allows them to stack abilities on targets that keep them from healing, and keep them from running; 2 of the 3 most essential ways of killing people in the open field. Killing people in the open field is all about A. Burst Damage B. Keeping them from running and C. Keeping them from healing. Allowing dexxers/archers to spam specials back to back allows them to do all of these things at once, where as mages are mostly limited to just burst damage.

The proof is in the pudding. If it didn't help mages then most mystics since this is what we are talking about specifically wouldn't be wearing studded. However that's not the case and almost all of them are now a days. Also if you want to talk about 55lmc vs 40 lmc and regen rates you would have to factor in how much mana they are saving every time they cast in your equation.

Mages aren't limited to burst, but that should be what they are using just like dexers to get the job done. Mages don't stop healing just like dexers? So mages don't use poison? They don't use specials if they have the template for it? Again all mages use poison, and those that are set up for specials do that as well. Mages also don't keep targets from running? Since when? I'm pretty sure they try use sleep, para, fields, walls, specials, bolas, etc. Even with all those you can NEVER stop someone from running, its not like WoW.

 

[Vexxed]

Hmm.. I think just to make stuff more clear EVERYONE should answer the following Questions at the beginning of their post..

1) Which do you believe are more powerful DEXXERS or MAGES?
2) Reguarding the Bola Balance Changes. Should this be Balance for the WHOLE PvP SYSTEM or BOLAS vs OTHER DISMOUNTS?

MY ANSWER.
1) DEXXERS
2) BOLAS vs OTHER Dismounts

The 2 questions above are what everyone has to answer in their own head before they can decide what they want to do with bola's but it's not clear to everyone else WHAT peoples suggestions are trying to achieve... With my post #209.. the (Above) was the reasoning behind it. I only choose to specifically address only bola's vs other dismounts in Question #2 because it's ultimately not about whole system balance for me ... it's about FUN. If I thought I could balance the whole system I would but I'll admit I can't do it and don't expect the DEVS to magically pull it off either. I will be ok with toning down the outta no where nearly offscreen dismounts that take the FUN outta it for me though.....

Your Turn!

 

[CovenantX]

Hmm.. I think just to make stuff more clear EVERYONE should answer the following Questions at the beginning of their post..

1) Which do you believe are more powerful DEXXERS or MAGES?
2) Reguarding the Bola Balance Changes. Should this be Balance for the WHOLE PvP SYSTEM or BOLAS vs OTHER DISMOUNTS?

MY ANSWER.
1) DEXXERS
2) BOLAS vs OTHER Dismounts

The 2 questions above are what everyone has to answer in their own head before they can decide what they want to do with bola's but it's not clear to everyone else WHAT peoples suggestions are trying to achieve... With my post #209.. the (Above) was the reasoning behind it. I only choose to specifically address only bola's vs other dismounts in Question #2 because it's ultimately not about whole system balance for me ... it's about FUN. If I thought I could balance the whole system I would but I'll admit I can't do it and don't expect the DEVS to magically pull it off either. I will be ok with toning down the outta no where nearly offscreen dismounts that take the FUN outta it for me though.....

Your Turn!

1) Depends on the situation, but overall, I think Mages are actually more powerful (this is not the same as being Overpowered), as mages do indeed require a lot more reaction time & awareness than playing a dexer does.

2) I don't see the difference between balancing Bolas with Weapon-based dismounts, and balancing as a whole as different things.
Balancing bolas with other forms of dismount would ultimately result in a "whole balancing", wouldn't it?

In reference to your other post:

I can't say I'd agree with an idea to make bolas instant, Unless it required a skill, had a chance to miss, and a mana cost.
Reasoning is because it is a consumable, you could do other things while attempting to dismount someone. While weapon skills (spec-toggling rules) do not allow you to do such a thing.

I have a question for you guys though, which I have my own opinion as to what the answer is and it's similar, yet unrelated...

Which is more effective? A) Enchanted Apple +/- Faction bandages. or B) Chivalry - Remove Curse.

In the end, the same rules should apply to everything possible.

Skills should always be better than other alternatives, in some situations they are, it should be in all situations, again this is just my opinion.

 

[CovenantX]

2) Not a Bola idea... but this pretty much all comes down to MOVEMENT. Nothing is more important in PvP than mobility and it's pretty much the same in any kind of warfare. I was wondering if Changing how Casting Focus functions sounds appealing to anyone else?

• Makes Casting Focus be a chance to MOVE while casting instead of a chance to not be interrupted. This would allow the "Mage Duel" he with skills aspect to allow for dominance if that's your cup of tea. (aka no more random protection effect). This would also allow Mages fighting the "OFF SCREEN KING" style of dexxer who runs away after every Explode to perhaps (if they lucky) get that random Casting Focus to kick in on a lightning bolt allowing them to effectively chase the target down. Last thought.... There could be a difference between offense / Healing spells .... Perhaps Casting Focus Allows Healing spells at a 5% higher Success chance to negate the "stopped while casting" aspect or some such?? Maybe if you have scribe.. I dunno but I like the idea more than I like negating interrupts..

All done.

I'd also like to touch on this a bit because it's not exactly a secret, that I'm completely against the way Casting Focus works currently.
Casting focus is only a chance, but it does more than stop the occasional interrupt.

One example is, if you were to get hit by a Stun-punch, or a weapon stun from a dexer, and casting focus proc'd while you were casting, the "stunner" uses their mana for nothing, and you still get your spell off, it doesn't happen so often with weapons as much as it does with wrestling, since weapons also have hit-spell procs, you would need multiple casting focuses in a single hit for that to be possible, but it can still happen though.

It is primarily for dueling purposes that I dislike casting focus, but not limited to dueling mind you.

I'm not so sure about allowing movement while casting spells, (you could actually test this on boats, as you can control a boat, and cast spells while driving it), but because of the things all "mages" have at their disposal I feel allowing movement while casting (even if only a chance) would create a big problem, not only vs dexers, but other mages as well.

At one point the devs implemented anti-overcasting for magery & necromancy on TC a couple years ago, it turned out, you were able to move while casting certain spells just because of that. ( I only assume that's why it was removed) but keeping yourself from over casting spells also is more so a "player skill", so it's probably for the best that it wasn't pushed live.

Ideal changes (IMO) specifically for any spell-casting skills, would be to remove most RNG from it completely, it should be based on you timing it.
The thing that made dueling fun, was the fact that it was mostly Your timing vs your opponents timing. The only RNG that was involved, was landing Poisons.
Casting focus, lessens a lot of that in combination with the Poisoning immunity with poisoning it's very reliable. even if it's from JoaT (human racial ability) pretty much makes a mage duel, more like a dexer duel with "more" timing involved.

Less randomness = more fun, when it comes to mages.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Hmm.. I think just to make stuff more clear EVERYONE should answer the following Questions at the beginning of their post..

1) Which do you believe are more powerful DEXXERS or MAGES?
2) Reguarding the Bola Balance Changes. Should this be Balance for the WHOLE PvP SYSTEM or BOLAS vs OTHER DISMOUNTS?

MY ANSWER.
1) DEXXERS
2) BOLAS vs OTHER Dismounts

The 2 questions above are what everyone has to answer in their own head before they can decide what they want to do with bola's but it's not clear to everyone else WHAT peoples suggestions are trying to achieve... With my post #209.. the (Above) was the reasoning behind it. I only choose to specifically address only bola's vs other dismounts in Question #2 because it's ultimately not about whole system balance for me ... it's about FUN. If I thought I could balance the whole system I would but I'll admit I can't do it and don't expect the DEVS to magically pull it off either. I will be ok with toning down the outta no where nearly offscreen dismounts that take the FUN outta it for me though.....

Your Turn!

Whats the fighting that you're using as an example? If you put a parry mage vs the dexer, the parry mage should win rather easily.

If its group what are we talking, champ spawn, faction bases? In either of those mages should win again.

To just say mage vs dexer its too broad and its impossible to see how you got to your conclusion.

 

[Revan123]

Bolas SHOULD be much worse than other dismounts, That's the point.

But why? You've gave nothing more than an opinion so far. At least I've made the argument that it would unbalance things.

You keep bringing up all this other stuff, that has nothing to do with the way dismount works, like splintering weapons, 210 stamina archers/throwers, and getting dismount ganked 1v3..

That's because the problem isn't dismounting.

I'd like to see an actual explanation of WHY a bola should be as good as a skilled version of dismount.

I'd like to see an actual explanation as to WHY it should not be. If you are going to nerf something, you had better have a better argument than "anyone can do it," or "it's a consumable."

Just because of a bola starting a remount timer on the user when you target with a bola instead of when it lands is just the trade off for not having skills which allow you to dismount like archery/throwing or a melee skill.

Which is exactly why I think it's balanced, and shouldn't be changed.

If you could explain WHY a bola should be as good as a weapon-based dismount without the mention of 210 stamina archers, or anything else that's completely separate from dismount, maybe we'd have a reason to continue to discuss this, A "Mage mages dismount" doesn't sound like a valid argument to me, as it just lessens the usefulness of a tank mage which someone might be taking up those skills FOR the ability to dismount.

Ok, you want my argument? Why should they NEED to? Why should someone have to pick up a weapon skill? Why should dismounting be unique to weapon skills? Why can't everyone have an equal opportunity? That is fair, that is balanced. Making it uniquely hard is not fair, and is not balanced. Plain and simple, That is my argument.

Just having a chance to miss (skill check) wouldn't make it useless. you also act as if you need 45% hit chance just to land a bola, you wouldn't, it would just increase your chance of it landing.

If you miss a bola around 85% of the time, it is not going to be worth putting yourself on foot and on a dismount timer. Even if you could keep someone on screen 100% of the time, you would only have a 66% chance of missing. That is a 34% chance of hitting. Multiply that by your chance of actually staying on screen and you have your chance of actually bola'ing someone. For argument's sake, let's say you currently have a 50% chance of staying on screen with someone (which sounds about right to me). Multiply 34% by .5 and you get 17% chance of actually dismounting someone. Combine that with the fact that you are going to be on a dismount timer every time you don't get it, and Yes, it is going to be useless, because it is not going to be worth going on foot and putting yourself on a timer just to have a 17% chance of dismounting someone.

 

[Revan123]

Well... Food for thought.

1) Are we discussing the bola change with the goal of balance in the PvP sytem as a WHOLE... . or are we simply looking at just dismounts as a single element and balancing it requirements / benefits vs other forms of dismount? I'm honestly not sure it matters to me personally what the goal is but it does matter when you look at the specific changes you plan to make.

2) Revan is basically saying nerfing bola's is nerfing mages in general (and I agree that mages are the ones who use bola's 99% of the time). This isn't a good step if you feel mages in PvP are underpowered compared to dexxers... If you feel mages have the upper hand then it's a good step towards balance.

3) If your not looking at PvP as a whole and simply eyeballing the pros // cons of the different Dismounting methods .. then YA I'd say for a consumable item that didn't take any skill bola's were OP.

Honestly imo I'm not looking at balance in the PvP system as a whole. I'm simply looking at WHY I play this game & ultimately that's because it's fun to play. That is unless I get teleport bola'ed from pretty much off my screen & then ganked. I find that LESS fun. Dexxers at least have a lesser range and are the easier to avoid. If I was fighting a 2 v 1 I would be far more worried about a guy with a bola then if it was just some dexxer. Ultimately I would much rather have a fight where things go back and forth and Dismount isn't the end all be all for "finishing" someone. Just think about all the times you have PvP'ed if you do and how many of the deaths were because you were dismounted? I'm going to bet it's waaaaaayyyyy more than 1/2 lol. It's just cheese ... and more so because the effectiveness is drastically increased when you consider any sort of gank.

A very reasonable post I thought; although I disagree with a few assertions.
First off, I'd like to point out that it seems like they are *not* considering the big picture, and I don't think they even know exactly what their goals are. They just seem to think Bola's are overpowered in general. As for your assertion that if one feels that mages have an upphand, this is a good way to balance things, and I disagree. Sure, it might nerf mages overall, but it wouldn't fix the problem at the source. I've explained the source of the problem many times, and it has little to do with which side can dismount more effectively. As to your third argument, I'd refute and say, why should dismounts necessarily be tied to a character skill? Would it not be fair if everyone had a semi-equal opportunity? And as for your example about most likely being dismounted by a bola'er 2v1, my suggestion to you is, learn how to survive a bola. I mean no offense when I say, that there are NUMEROUS things one can do, and if you find yourself easy to be bola'd, you may need to make a few adaptions. In which case, the problem is not that bola's are overpowered, but that you simply aren't adjusting your strategy to combat it effectively. And yes, I agree that dismounts in general are overpowered, but again, it's not the dismounts themselves that are overpowered. It's the Dexxers/Archers hitting you when you are on foot.

 

[Revan123]

1) Depends on the situation, but overall, I think Mages are actually more powerful (this is not the same as being Overpowered), as mages do indeed require a lot more reaction time & awareness than playing a dexer does.

2) I don't see the difference between balancing Bolas with Weapon-based dismounts, and balancing as a whole as different things.
Balancing bolas with other forms of dismount would ultimately result in a "whole balancing", wouldn't it?

In reference to your other post:

I can't say I'd agree with an idea to make bolas instant, Unless it required a skill, had a chance to miss, and a mana cost.
Reasoning is because it is a consumable, you could do other things while attempting to dismount someone. While weapon skills (spec-toggling rules) do not allow you to do such a thing.

I have a question for you guys though, which I have my own opinion as to what the answer is and it's similar, yet unrelated...

Which is more effective? A) Enchanted Apple +/- Faction bandages. or B) Chivalry - Remove Curse.

In the end, the same rules should apply to everything possible.

Skills should always be better than other alternatives, in some situations they are, it should be in all situations, again this is just my opinion.

So what you're saying is that you think bola's should be nerfed is because mages are "too powerful"?

 

[Revan123]

THIS.

Ive been looking for answer to this question from him and have yet to see it. Instead we get a story how you can dodge a bola, even though you can dodge a special. Then its never said why its fair that it requires no skill points to use, no mana, and has a longer range.

No dude, that's just restating his main point. BOLAS SHOULD BE LESS POWERFUL THAN WEAPON DISMOUNTS. Yeah, that's just restating his thesis. That's not bringing anything new to the table. And I have answered it many many times. I keep saying, IT SHOULD NOT BE LESS POWERFUL BECAUSE IT UNBALANCES THINGS, AND I THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE A BALANCED GAME. <<<<<<------That is my Answer. My main argument, and the whole point to my "stories." It's just neither of you seem to get it. Your response to my statement, every time, is that bola's are too powerful as is. And what do you use to argue that point? You point out ways in which using a bola is advantageous. To which I always respond by showing you that there are also advantages to using weapons, and I always conclude with the statement that Bolas are NOT overpowered (which you don't seem to think), but that they are semi-balanced with weapon dismounts, and that that's how it should be FOR THE SAKE OF KEEPING THE GAME BALANCED.

 

[Revan123]

Whats the fighting that you're using as an example? If you put a parry mage vs the dexer, the parry mage should win rather easily.

If its group what are we talking, champ spawn, faction bases? In either of those mages should win again.

To just say mage vs dexer its too broad and its impossible to see how you got to your conclusion.

I actually Agree. Despite the fact that I think it's much harder to play a mage in the open field, and that they are at a disadvantage, I also think that they are at an advantage in Choke Point and Grinder scenarios; although a GOOD dexxer/archer should be able to do well in grinder/choke points, by being resourceful and using things such as magical short bows, tele scrolls, wall of stone scrolls, I do also think that perhaps they need a little more to be competitive in those scenarios. I don't think disagree with your premise, I do think mages have an advantage in choke points and grinder fights, and maybe there are things that need to be done to help non-mages more in those scenarios. But this is the open field we are talking about. People typically don't bola where it's easy to hide behind something, or when there are plenty of fields.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

No dude, that's just restating his main point. BOLAS SHOULD BE LESS POWERFUL THAN WEAPON DISMOUNTS. Yeah, that's just restating his thesis. That's not bringing anything new to the table. And I have answered it many many times. I keep saying, IT SHOULD NOT BE LESS POWERFUL BECAUSE IT UNBALANCES THINGS, AND I THINK THAT IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE A BALANCED GAME. <<<<<<------That is my Answer. My main argument, and the whole point to my "stories." It's just neither of you seem to get it. Your response to my statement, every time, is that bola's are too powerful as is. And what do you use to argue that point? You point out ways in which using a bola is advantageous. To which I always respond by showing you that there are also advantages to using weapons, and I always conclude with the statement that Bolas are NOT overpowered (which you don't seem to think), but that they are semi-balanced with weapon dismounts, and that that's how it should be FOR THE SAKE OF KEEPING THE GAME BALANCED.

So why should no mana be involved for them? You're not wanting to change anything at all. The whole point is that you get a free dismount ability with no skill points/mana required. Or the fact that it has a MUCH longer range.

You don't think they should be a one time use, or take mana, or have their range toned down to 8 tiles like a cyclone/heavy?

 

[Speaking the Truth]

I actually Agree. Despite the fact that I think it's much harder to play a mage in the open field, and that they are at a disadvantage, I also think that they are at an advantage in Choke Point and Grinder scenarios; although a GOOD dexxer/archer should be able to do well in grinder/choke points, by being resourceful and using things such as magical short bows, tele scrolls, wall of stone scrolls, I do also think that perhaps they need a little more to be competitive in those scenarios. I don't think disagree with your premise, I do think mages have an advantage in choke points and grinder fights, and maybe there are things that need to be done to help non-mages more in those scenarios. But this is the open field we are talking about. People typically don't bola where it's easy to hide behind something, or when there are plenty of fields.

Even in the open field mages are powerful. It's not as though you can't field in the open field. Plenty of people will field in yew for example. No one is arguing that mages aren't more difficult to play, BUT they become exceedingly deadly when a good group is on vs a dexer heavy group. Even 1v1 I believe a mage should win if you look at the big picture and decide to pick up parry. There is nothing a dexer can do that can passively block 40% of a mages attacks.

 

[CovenantX]

But why? You've gave nothing more than an opinion so far. At least I've made the argument that it would unbalance things

Your version isn't an opinion huh?

Ok, you want my argument? Why should they NEED to? Why should someone have to pick up a weapon skill? Why should dismounting be unique to weapon skills?

Why should a character without skills that allow you to dismount, be able to do it with a consumable, which at times is easier than a weapon skill.
You think, having 120 mystic+Focus, Necro+spirit speak, or any other combination besides a weapon skill & tactics, should have the ability to dismount without a chance to miss.

Lets be honest here, most of your chance to miss comes from line of sight/off screening Or people dismounting themselves before your bola hits (this would be player skill) on both sides.
If someone line of sights you, it was your mistake of throwing a bola where it could happen.

If anything, the bolas should be changed to require 90 Wrestling or Anatomy, but the chance to miss is what would balance it with other methods of dismounting.

Why can't everyone have an equal opportunity? That is fair, that is balanced. Making it uniquely hard is not fair, and is not balanced. Plain and simple, That is my argument.

Because we're not talking about skills vs skills, We're talking about skills vs consumable.

No one is removing your ability to dismount without required skills, unless they were to change the bola and have it require a skill.
It would be better balanced with pub 86 changes.

 

[Revan123]

The proof is in the pudding. If it didn't help mages then most mystics since this is what we are talking about specifically wouldn't be wearing studded. However that's not the case and almost all of them are now a days. Also if you want to talk about 55lmc vs 40 lmc and regen rates you would have to factor in how much mana they are saving every time they cast in your equation.

Mages aren't limited to burst, but that should be what they are using just like dexers to get the job done. Mages don't stop healing just like dexers? So mages don't use poison? They don't use specials if they have the template for it? Again all mages use poison, and those that are set up for specials do that as well. Mages also don't keep targets from running? Since when? I'm pretty sure they try use sleep, para, fields, walls, specials, bolas, etc. Even with all those you can NEVER stop someone from running, its not like WoW.

Ok, this is largely incoherent, and I failed to reckognize many points out of this. But I'll try and work with that I think you were trying to express. Most mages are not Mystics. I would say probably less than half. You have Tamer Mages, Pure mages, Nox mages, Archer Mages, Necro Mages, Spellweaving Mages, etc. I'm sure there are more Mystic Mages than most of those types, but you can't possible pretend that the large majority of mages are mystic mages. As for factoring in how much mana a mage is saving, OF COURSE I factored that in, but dexxers are getting the same benefit; so what's the difference?

As for your "mages aren't limited to burst" comment, it seems like yet again you failed to see the point in large. I was referring SPECIFICALLY TO OFFENSIVE POWERS. What in PARTICULAR is necessary to KILLING people, and those three things (again) are 1. Burst Damage 2. Keeping them from healing and 3. Keeping them from Running. In today's game a mage can only perform the first function adequately in the field. Healing has nothing to do with the subject. A mage casting poison in the field is useless in today's game because of pots and enhance potions (which btw, most people have 50 ep in todays game) making deadly poison a waste of time and skill (in the open field of course, a grinder is another story). Necro Mages can Lethal Poison, but it takes the casting of two spells, and most people are smart enough not to stand close and let them hit it, and even if they do, 50 EP can still rid them of it without much hastle. Lethal Poison however, for a dexxer, is much more convenient. It doesn't take time to cast, it can't be resisted, they do damage when they hit with it, and if they have a good weapon they can even get a splinter off with it. For the millionth time, those that are set up for the specials that a dexxer/archer would use are not pure mages, or mystic mages, or anything other template that can be considered exclusively a caster. They are Hybrids. You might still THINK of them as mages, but you can ALSO think of them as Dexxers/Archers too, because again, they are hybrids. A mage that isn't ALSO a Dexxer/Archer can not adequately keep someone from being healed, and keep someone from running (unless they dismount with a bola). Paralyze doesn't work effectively if someone has a box (which everyone does), Walls and Fields do not work adequately in the open field, because it is easy to run around them. Again, we're not talking about choke points and grinders. Sleep and Stun punch are the only semi-effective ways a mage can slow someone down, and even then they aren't nearly as effective as a dexxer/archers ability to slow/stop someone simply because stun punches are random and you can cast while you toggle one, and sleep is resistable, doesn't last long, and can be apple'd quite easily. The only truly effective way a mage has of slowing someone down is by bola'ing them. Dismounting is the single most effective maneuver in the game precisely because it slows someone more effectively than anything else, and you can also stack other abilities on top of it (which btw, it also makes getting those abilities off easier, because a slow moving target is an easy target). If you nerf the bola, you are nerfing a mages ability to perform the single most effective maneuver in the game, and this nerf in particular will make using it useless; I ASSURE YOU. Mages will have to either go Hybrid, or settle for the fact that when it comes to offense, ALL they will have is burst damage, which btw they will also be poor at that unless they sacrifice their defenses significantly.

 

[Revan123]

Your version isn't an opinion huh?

Ultimately they are all opinions, but at least mine is based on the principle of balance.

Why should a character without skills that allow you to dismount, be able to do it with a consumable, which at times is easier than a weapon skill.
You think, having 120 mystic+Focus, Necro+spirit speak, or any other combination besides a weapon skill & tactics, should have the ability to dismount without a chance to miss.

Yes, and for the millionth time, there is always a chance to miss. Can you stop repeating that? You act like bola's hit 100% of the time. I don't know what noobs you are playing with. And to answer your question, a character without skills should be allowed to dismount because it balances things for all classes. As other people have noted, why should you be able to do ANYTHING without a skill? Why should you be able to chug pots without alchemy, or eat apples without cooking?

Lets be honest here, most of your chance to miss comes from line of sight/off screening Or people dismounting themselves before your bola hits (this would be player skill) on both sides.
If someone line of sights you, it was your mistake of throwing a bola where it could happen.

If anything, the bolas should be changed to require 90 Wrestling or Anatomy, but the chance to miss is what would balance it with other methods of dismounting.

Because we're not talking about skills vs skills, We're talking about skills vs consumable.

So what you're saying is, is that if you attempt to bola and you miss the person, it is 100% your fault? None of it has to do with the skill of the person being bola'd, simply knowing when to run, where to run, and what to do? That's ridiculous, because in what scenario can you bola 100% of the time? How do the conditions need to be for one to know EXACTLY WHEN they are going to hit with the bola 100% of the time? IT IS SKILL VS. SKILL. Bola'ing, as it stands right now, is a dance of skill between the bola'er and the person being bola'd. If the person being bola'd does not react quickly, or does not do what it is necessary to avoid the bola, they will get bola'd. But if they are quick to react, or know what to do, they can avoid the bola. But bola'ing people ALSO takes skill. If you don't teleport, you're probably not going to hit it. And teleporting well DOES take skill, getting the maximum number of tiles each time, knowing what tiles you can and cannot tele on, knowing how to teleport around obstacles, and houses. There's definitely a skill to Bola'ing otherwise any noob could just bola over and over and it would hit 100% of the time (which is what you make it sound like). It really isn't hard, you make it seem like bola's are so overpowered, and it is so difficult to escape them. There are NUMEROUS ways you can go about it. Personally? I play with a mount in the open field. That way in the unlikely chance I don't react quickly to a bola attempt, I can just dismount myself when the bola is supposed to hit and then remount. If you don't like being bola'd so much, why don't you just try to come up with ways like that to avoid it? You know, you might not think it was so "overpowered" if you actually tried to overcome it[/QUOTE]

 

[Revan123]

Even in the open field mages are powerful. It's not as though you can't field in the open field. Plenty of people will field in yew for example. No one is arguing that mages aren't more difficult to play, BUT they become exceedingly deadly when a good group is on vs a dexer heavy group. Even 1v1 I believe a mage should win if you look at the big picture and decide to pick up parry. There is nothing a dexer can do that can passively block 40% of a mages attacks.

It's more like 35%, and some parry mages don't even go to 120. But as to your statement about nothing dexxers can do to avoid mage spells, actually yeah there is something they can do, IT'S CALLED RUNNING, and it will actually avoid 100% of mage spells. And no, a good 1v1 mage should NOT beat a good 1v1 Dexxer/Archer. Trust me, I play a mage, and when it comes to 1v1's, I'm about as good as it gets. I can kill most people, but anyone smart enough to know when to run can easily avoid ALL OF MY DAMAGE.

 

[Revan123]

Hmm.. I think just to make stuff more clear EVERYONE should answer the following Questions at the beginning of their post..

1) Which do you believe are more powerful DEXXERS or MAGES?
2) Reguarding the Bola Balance Changes. Should this be Balance for the WHOLE PvP SYSTEM or BOLAS vs OTHER DISMOUNTS?

MY ANSWER.
1) DEXXERS
2) BOLAS vs OTHER Dismounts

The 2 questions above are what everyone has to answer in their own head before they can decide what they want to do with bola's but it's not clear to everyone else WHAT peoples suggestions are trying to achieve... With my post #209.. the (Above) was the reasoning behind it. I only choose to specifically address only bola's vs other dismounts in Question #2 because it's ultimately not about whole system balance for me ... it's about FUN. If I thought I could balance the whole system I would but I'll admit I can't do it and don't expect the DEVS to magically pull it off either. I will be ok with toning down the outta no where nearly offscreen dismounts that take the FUN outta it for me though.....

Your Turn!

In this single post you have demonstrated more clarity and understanding of the overall big picture than I have read in this entire thread. But I would suggest a revision. Bola's Vs. Other Dismounters can be considered a part of the whole pvp system, in which case I would first ask, Should this be Balance for Dexxers or Mages overall? Or specifically Bolas vs Other Dismounts? And then, in the next question, I would either ask, Which is more powerful? A. Dexxers B. Mages. C. it's balanced as is. And the third question I would ask, Which is more powerful? A. Bola dismounts B. Melee/Archer dismounts C. It's balanced. And then, make some points to support your opinion.

As to your suggestion to change Casting Focus to a mod that allows mages to cast while moving, I personally think it's a brilliant suggestion; although I'm not sure if it would actually work. If it could work effectively it would definitely help to balance things, but I do anticipate some problems with it. First off, if you try and move too much while casting, or too soon after beginning your spell, you can actually "overcast" and cause a "dead-spell" effect. If you didn't know when the casting focus effect would work, you would presumably try to run during every spell, which may cause this negative side effect often.

 

[CovenantX]

That way in the unlikely chance I don't react quickly to a bola attempt, I can just dismount myself when the bola is supposed to hit and then remount. If you don't like being bola'd so much, why don't you just try to come up with ways like that to avoid it?

The ways to avoid a bola and dismounts via other means are the same, the only difference is the amount of time you have to do it. I don't have problems avoiding bolas for the most part, nor do I have problems avoiding other forms of dismounts... Can I avoid them every time? No, do I expect to? No.

You know, you might not think it was so "overpowered" if you actually tried to overcome it

I don't think that they are overpowered per se, But if bolas stay as they are, and dismount (special) gets a mana cost increase of 75%, it would make bolas an even better alternative than it is right now. a chance to miss, = the reasoning for the mana cost increase on weapon-based dismounts.

The skill requirement thing is big, don't act like it isn't. I don't feel it should be as easy as it is, to dismount someone with a bola.

 

[PaithanTheElf]

I am curious- Has anyone else thought that bolas should NOT be nerfed in anyway other than Revan? He is the only proponent I am seeing in here. I want someone elses thoughts that think it should NOT be nerfed and why you think having a bola with that range, no mana, etc is NOT unbalanced.

 

[Picus at the office]

How about leaving bola's the way they are and making every mage wep -30?

 

[PaithanTheElf]

^^^ And then tie all specials to Eval Int? I would be ok with that.

Now back to people that actually want to contribute something worthwhile....

Vexxed, I like those ideas. Both of them. Very interesting!

 

[Speaking the Truth]

It's more like 35%, and some parry mages don't even go to 120. But as to your statement about nothing dexxers can do to avoid mage spells, actually yeah there is something they can do, IT'S CALLED RUNNING, and it will actually avoid 100% of mage spells. And no, a good 1v1 mage should NOT beat a good 1v1 Dexxer/Archer. Trust me, I play a mage, and when it comes to 1v1's, I'm about as good as it gets. I can kill most people, but anyone smart enough to know when to run can easily avoid ALL OF MY DAMAGE.

Maybe you're not as good as you think you are then. Also if we're talking big picture you could make a temp using parry bush and have 40%, I guess I should been more specific since I forgot you try to split hairs and say mages are so horrible.

Also I said passively. As in just sitting there doing nothing, over 1/3 of the attacks can be blocked.

A mage could run also, if you talk about moving shot then the mage can cast tele, be out of range and then its the same thing as the mage chasing the dexer. Both are avoiding ALL of the damage. See mages can do the same thing as dexers.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Ok, this is largely incoherent, and I failed to reckognize many points out of this. But I'll try and work with that I think you were trying to express. Most mages are not Mystics. I would say probably less than half. You have Tamer Mages, Pure mages, Nox mages, Archer Mages, Necro Mages, Spellweaving Mages, etc. I'm sure there are more Mystic Mages than most of those types, but you can't possible pretend that the large majority of mages are mystic mages. As for factoring in how much mana a mage is saving, OF COURSE I factored that in, but dexxers are getting the same benefit; so what's the difference?

Half the mages you listed can be put on a mystics template. Mystics are over powered for the fact that it takes focus to use rather than how it use to be imbue allowing you to add so much to the template. You make it sound as though people can't be a Mystic nox mage, mystic necro, mystic spellweaving. Most have some kind of combo like that.

Also how many tamer mages do you see these days? Only a handful even play. Same with tank mages, very few people want to play those when mystics can have so much fire power without giving up anything on the defensive side of things.

The difference is that you said dexers regen better than mages, and as I showed you, that's far from the case. In every case mages always came out on top.

BUT if you want to look at the few templates that are running med over focus, that still works in my favor as the regen rate is even better. Again you keep bringing up points that only augment what Im saying.

Dexer with JoaT
Total Regen (Non-Mediable Armor):
1.0542 Mana/Sec (47% of Max)
Total Passiv Regen (Mediable Armor):
1.3042 Mana/Sec (36% of Max)

Elf Garg
Total Regen (Non-Mediable Armor):
0.9443 Mana/Sec (42% of Max)
Total Passiv Regen (Mediable Armor):
1.1943 Mana/Sec (33% of Max)

Mage wearing leather
Total Passiv Regen (Mediable Armor):
2.7167 Mana/Sec (75% of Max)

Before we were just talking about studded vs studded mage vs dexer. If you want to bring into the fact that some mages don't use studded and have med while using leather it just shows that their mana is even better. Now its 1.7 mana more per second.


I'll show you what was wrong with your second half of that post later.

Also I noticed you still haven't addressed any points about the consumable vs the skill as to why it should be just as good as good, cost no mana, and have a longer range. When you get a chance that would be great instead of avoiding it every single time.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

What part aren't you getting that it's not skill vs skill with bolas? One takes skill points, the other is a consumable. Both take "player skill". Watch Revan focus on this first sentence and avoid the two below where he has nothing to say about it. I'm calling it like Babe Ruth.

The whole point everyone is making and you keep avoiding is that if you have two characters standing still to test this out and throw 100 bolas, it will hit 100% of the time.

If you then have a dexer try to dismount someone and count how many times the person on mount who is just standing there is dismounted it will not be 100% of the time. Just to be clear since we're talking both chars with 120 in a fighting skill or with a mage wep, 45 hci vs 45 dci etc. In addition to misses for the dexer, a mage could passively parry with a mage wep if you want to factor that in as well with the two characters that are just sitting on screen for this test.

No matter how you slice it the bola hits 100% of the time, the dexer does not. We're not talking about dodging as both can be dodged.

 

[Speaking the Truth]

As for your "mages aren't limited to burst" comment, it seems like yet again you failed to see the point in large. I was referring SPECIFICALLY TO OFFENSIVE POWERS. What in PARTICULAR is necessary to KILLING people, and those three things (again) are 1. Burst Damage 2. Keeping them from healing and 3. Keeping them from Running. In today's game a mage can only perform the first function adequately in the field. Healing has nothing to do with the subject. A mage casting poison in the field is useless in today's game because of pots and enhance potions (which btw, most people have 50 ep in todays game) making deadly poison a waste of time and skill (in the open field of course, a grinder is another story). Necro Mages can Lethal Poison, but it takes the casting of two spells, and most people are smart enough not to stand close and let them hit it, and even if they do, 50 EP can still rid them of it without much hastle. Lethal Poison however, for a dexxer, is much more convenient. It doesn't take time to cast, it can't be resisted, they do damage when they hit with it, and if they have a good weapon they can even get a splinter off with it. For the millionth time, those that are set up for the specials that a dexxer/archer would use are not pure mages, or mystic mages, or anything other template that can be considered exclusively a caster. They are Hybrids. You might still THINK of them as mages, but you can ALSO think of them as Dexxers/Archers too, because again, they are hybrids. A mage that isn't ALSO a Dexxer/Archer can not adequately keep someone from being healed, and keep someone from running (unless they dismount with a bola). Paralyze doesn't work effectively if someone has a box (which everyone does), Walls and Fields do not work adequately in the open field, because it is easy to run around them. Again, we're not talking about choke points and grinders. Sleep and Stun punch are the only semi-effective ways a mage can slow someone down, and even then they aren't nearly as effective as a dexxer/archers ability to slow/stop someone simply because stun punches are random and you can cast while you toggle one, and sleep is resistable, doesn't last long, and can be apple'd quite easily. The only truly effective way a mage has of slowing someone down is by bola'ing them. Dismounting is the single most effective maneuver in the game precisely because it slows someone more effectively than anything else, and you can also stack other abilities on top of it (which btw, it also makes getting those abilities off easier, because a slow moving target is an easy target). If you nerf the bola, you are nerfing a mages ability to perform the single most effective maneuver in the game, and this nerf in particular will make using it useless; I ASSURE YOU. Mages will have to either go Hybrid, or settle for the fact that when it comes to offense, ALL they will have is burst damage, which btw they will also be poor at that unless they sacrifice their defenses significantly.

It does when you look at the subject of me listing advantages of being a mage. Make sure you're following the topics, this would help a lot.

I'm not sure why you're repeating yourself. So yet again, a mage can burst, a mage can stop healing, and a mage can stop someone from running, look back to my post if you forgot all the examples that were listed.

Ive seen time and time again where people have died from a level 4 that hasn't cured, and they had 50 ep. So right off the bat you're wrong but it was cute so that you could try to stack the argument in your favor. Now when you want to talk about range and using a necro as an example, a necro can dp someone from 4 tiles away, vs a dexer being right next to the target.

You said it yourself though people are smart and will run away, so a mage will run away from a dexer since said dexer has to be right next to the target instead of 4 tiles away, or simply casting a field and fighting in it. Also the weapons that can poison that most use like butcher knifes etc you act like they hit for huge damage. Their base damage is on of the lowest on weapons in game.

Yes every thing I listed DOES work. Go to Yew gate, and cast a field between a house. That's not a grinder its open field, and look at that it's working it slows down those dexers. Also you still ignored the fact that if you want to dismount or slow someone down, you could add splinter to your mage temp, you could pick up a fighting skill, you can sleep them, you add frenzied whirlwind. You keep acting like mages are helpless. That's not the case you just dont want to change your template, which is fine. However this is why no one cares when you cry. No one is forcing you to play any template.

If you're talking about an archers ability to slow/stop, well you said it yourself boxes, so no template can STOP another template at all ever. This is for both mages and dexers. See a wash yet again.

Your argument doesn't make sense at all. If a dexer dismounts you, they are on foot also, so that whole slow target easier to hit is a wash AGAIN.

If you're talking about group fighting again, get a better group.

All of your points are always horrible. You can literally add any of those abilities to your template if you choose. You're saying mages can't do that yet i've seen a MAGE on atlantic that can spinter and leathal. Also its a mage when more skills are invested in mage skills like eval etc. You keep trying to act like that's not a mage. No it's a dexer, just a dexer that only casts spells, and doesn't have healing, or anatomy, and doesn't have damage increase on their suit, and has lrc on their suit. Its embarrassing how you try to spin things, it only makes you look foolish.

 

[Winter]

Same things being said over... and over.... and over...

More please!

 

[Goldberg-Chessy]

I am curious- Has anyone else thought that bolas should NOT be nerfed in anyway other than Revan? He is the only proponent I am seeing in here. I want someone elses thoughts that think it should NOT be nerfed and why you think having a bola with that range, no mana, etc is NOT unbalanced.

Well said and right to the point.

I highly doubt that any impartial pvper could present a valid argument as to why bolas should not be nerfed in some way.

Nobody is saying make bolas useless or impossible for a mage to effectively use in the field. They just need to be toned down a bit. Do not require mages to completely overhaul their template or suit to use them but just make it so they aren't so brutally effective on all mage templates with no real sacrifice at all. Because being on foot is not truly a sacrifice as all practical dismounts come from being on foot.

Why not start with a small adjustment such as slightly lessened range and a % to whiff?
No need to try and hit a home run on the first update and really screw things up for months imo

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Well said and right to the point.

I highly doubt that any impartial pvper could present a valid argument as to why bolas should not be nerfed in some way.

Nobody is saying make bolas useless or impossible for a mage to effectively use in the field. They just need to be toned down a bit. Do not require mages to completely overhaul their template or suit to use them but just make it so they aren't so brutally effective on all mage templates with no real sacrifice at all. Because being on foot is not truly a sacrifice as all practical dismounts come from being on foot.

Why not start with a small adjustment such as slightly lessened range and a % to whiff?
No need to try and hit a home run on the first update and really screw things up for months imo

If we're being honest no one can. The fact that's its a consumable that does the same thing as a special, for no mana, with a longer range. How can anyone argue that?

Agreed again. Only 1 person is taking it as though it would be useless/impossible.

A change like that is simple enough.

 

[Vexxed]

Hmm.... I wonder if perhaps a DEV could clarify what the INTENT behind the bola change was? The only way to really TEST and determine if thing s are functioning as intended is to know what they were trying to accomplish? Bleak "Liked" my comment on Whiole System Balance OR Just Bola Dismount Balance so I'm going to assume it's a question that has crossed the minds of the DEVS. Honestly ..... it's an important question because every "small mechanic" change has an effect on the PvP system as a whole, but when your trying to fix something you have to start somewhere. So....

1) If the DEVS intent is to just balance Bola's vs other forms of Dismount .. that's fine, but we need to KNOW if that's the goal
2) If the DEVS intent is to Make Changes that bring the WHOLE PvP System closer into balance... Well that All depends on which side of the scale you feel is heaviest and sadly... it is quite subjective which makes this difficult.

Anyway... Tell us oh Wise ones.. what the GOAL / INTENT is behind the Bola Mechanic changes ... because if it's to give Beggars a Boost then your missing your mark heh....

 

[Speaking the Truth]

Hmm.... I wonder if perhaps a DEV could clarify what the INTENT behind the bola change was? The only way to really TEST and determine if thing s are functioning as intended is to know what they were trying to accomplish? Bleak "Liked" my comment on Whiole System Balance OR Just Bola Dismount Balance so I'm going to assume it's a question that has crossed the minds of the DEVS. Honestly ..... it's an important question because every "small mechanic" change has an effect on the PvP system as a whole, but when your trying to fix something you have to start somewhere. So....

1) If the DEVS intent is to just balance Bola's vs other forms of Dismount .. that's fine, but we need to KNOW if that's the goal
2) If the DEVS intent is to Make Changes that bring the WHOLE PvP System closer into balance... Well that All depends on which side of the scale you feel is heaviest and sadly... it is quite subjective which makes this difficult.

Anyway... Tell us oh Wise ones.. what the GOAL / INTENT is behind the Bola Mechanic changes ... because if it's to give Beggars a Boost then your missing your mark heh....

This

 

[Uvtha]

Same things being said over... and over.... and over...

More please!

But how do they feel about bolas?

 

[Picus at the office]

More people should have applied for the chance to talk with the dev team. I did and, sadly, had to turn down the chance as the NDA to be signed had a paragraph about compensation which I left me in a lurch with my employer(really shouldn't have been a issue but who knows). If they had accepted me they would have accepted anyone(that might be the issue).

 

[Uriah Heep]

After 5 pages of he said/she said - Mine's bigger, etc etc, makes a person think Bolas is the only thing coming up in this publish...

I never knew so many people used bolas, oh wait...

 

[Revan123]

I don't think that they are overpowered per se, But if bolas stay as they are, and dismount (special) gets a mana cost increase of 75%, it would make bolas an even better alternative than it is right now. a chance to miss, = the reasoning for the mana cost increase on weapon-based dismounts.

The skill requirement thing is big, don't act like it isn't. I don't feel it should be as easy as it is, to dismount someone with a bola.

Well if this is what your whole argument was based off, why didn't you just say that right from the start? You may have a point, to a degree, but as I've demonstrated before, a dismount costing 4 extra mana on a character that has about 100 mana, isn't going to make nearly as much of a difference as a bola that hits 20% of the time. This is not a hand for a hand, it's a hand for an arm. Maybe they should reduce the range of bolas by two tiles to make up for the 4 mana increase; but don't drop it's chance to hit by 50 or so percentage points.

But as far as the skill requirement thing goes, I can't stress enough; Why does dismounting have to be unique to an in game skill? Should pots be limited to alchemists? Should apple's be limited to Cooks? Dismounting with a bola, is only as easy as the person you are bola'ing. If they are any good, it is not easy. Someone can only bola "well" if they cast teleport, which costs mana. And sorry to say, but if you get bola'd by people who don't even cast teleport, you are not good at avoiding the bola. Sorry, but it's true.

 

[Revan123]

So why should no mana be involved for them? You're not wanting to change anything at all. The whole point is that you get a free dismount ability with no skill points/mana required. Or the fact that it has a MUCH longer range.

You don't think they should be a one time use, or take mana, or have their range toned down to 8 tiles like a cyclone/heavy?

Again, it's about trade offs. Bolas generally give people plenty of time to run from them. That is the rational for the longer range. When the developers who created bolas creating them, they gave them a longer range for that exact reason. They don't cost mana because if you cast teleport twice, that already takes mana; and if you don't cast teleport you will only be able to bola noobs. Period. As for a one time use? I don't see how that will make a difference. Mages usually carry bolas, and they can generally carry much more than a dexxer/archer because they don't carry a bunch of heavy weapons and nearly as much resources. As for the skill requirements, you've still yet to give a rationale explanation as to why dismounts should be unique to character skill.

As it stands, bolas are NOT overpowered, and most good in game players will agree. If you think they are overpowered, (and I'm not trying to insult you here) but maybe it's because you just don't know how to avoid them well enough.

 

[Revan123]

I am curious- Has anyone else thought that bolas should NOT be nerfed in anyway other than Revan? He is the only proponent I am seeing in here. I want someone elses thoughts that think it should NOT be nerfed and why you think having a bola with that range, no mana, etc is NOT unbalanced.

I would like to point out, that just because I'm the only one here against this, doesn't mean I don't represent a larger community. I speak to people about proposed changes here on occasion and the majority of players that I speak to generally agree with me, they just don't like to post here because they'd rather avoid these long strenuous arguments lol.

 

[Revan123]

How about leaving bola's the way they are and making every mage wep -30?

Sorry, but how would this help?

 

[Revan123]

Maybe you're not as good as you think you are then. Also if we're talking big picture you could make a temp using parry bush and have 40%, I guess I should been more specific since I forgot you try to split hairs and say mages are so horrible.

Also I said passively. As in just sitting there doing nothing, over 1/3 of the attacks can be blocked.

A mage could run also, if you talk about moving shot then the mage can cast tele, be out of range and then its the same thing as the mage chasing the dexer. Both are avoiding ALL of the damage. See mages can do the same thing as dexers.

Is this a serious point? I could... make a temp... with parry bush... and have 40 parry? And then what? a non-balanced weapon? lol Right. Way to look at the trade-offs dude. You act like running is so much harder than passively parrying? Sure it might take a little more skill, but it also avoids 100% of mage spells, as opposed to 1/3 weapon hits. Let me repeat that, because you don't seem to get it. YOU CAN AVOID 100% OF MAGE SPELLS BY SIMPLY RUNNING.

 

[Revan123]

Half the mages you listed can be put on a mystics template. Mystics are over powered for the fact that it takes focus to use rather than how it use to be imbue allowing you to add so much to the template. You make it sound as though people can't be a Mystic nox mage, mystic necro, mystic spellweaving. Most have some kind of combo like that.

Mystics? Overpowered? LOL. Don't make me laugh. Maybe in early SA, but definitely not today. No Offense, but if you think Mystics are more OP than the 210 stam disarm archer with 55 LMC and 100 mana, you probably suck at UO.

Also how many tamer mages do you see these days? Only a handful even play. Same with tank mages, very few people want to play those when mystics can have so much fire power without giving up anything on the defensive side of things.

How many tamer mages? I see tamer mages ALL THE TIME. What shards are you playing?

The difference is that you said dexers regen better than mages, and as I showed you, that's far from the case. In every case mages always came out on top.

Dude, You're not getting the point. I NEVER SAID DEXXERS REGEN BETTER THAN MAGES. I said A DEXXERS REGEN RATE, COMPARED TO WHAT IT USED TO BE, IS BETTER THAN A MAGES, COMPARED TO WHAT IT USED TO BE; HENCE, 55 LMC SUITS HELPED DEXXERS MORE THAN MAGES. You need to compare the new values to the old values to see that. You cannot simply compare dexxers and mages current regen rates and say mages still have a better regen rate. Sure they do, BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT. The point is that dexxers received a larger benefit from 55LMC suits. In order to see that, you have to compare what they have now to the alternative; in other words WHAT THEY USED TO HAVE.

Before we were just talking about studded vs studded mage vs dexer. If you want to bring into the fact that some mages don't use studded and have med while using leather it just shows that their mana is even better. Now its 1.7 mana more per second.

Again, we're talking about benefits, and if you want to consider benefits, you need to consider the alternatives. Sure, a mage with med and medable armor has a better regen rate than any, But that's WHY THEY DIDN'T RECEIVE A BENEFIT FROM 55 LMC SUITS. The only one's who did, were mystic mages, which again only make up a fraction of the mage community. Even then, it's only MARGINALLY better. Yes, of course a mages regen rate is STILL better than a dexxer. That doesn't mean that dexxers aren't doing much better on the mana cost/regen scale than they used to.

I'll show you what was wrong with your second half of that post later.

Oh boy, I can't wait.

Also I noticed you still haven't addressed any points about the consumable vs the skill as to why it should be just as good as good, cost no mana, and have a longer range. When you get a chance that would be great instead of avoiding it every single time.[/QUOTE]
I did. Read it again:

So what you're saying is, is that if you attempt to bola and you miss the person, it is 100% your fault? None of it has to do with the skill of the person being bola'd, simply knowing when to run, where to run, and what to do? That's ridiculous, because in what scenario can you bola 100% of the time? How do the conditions need to be for one to know EXACTLY WHEN they are going to hit with the bola 100% of the time? IT IS SKILL VS. SKILL. Bola'ing, as it stands right now, is a dance of skill between the bola'er and the person being bola'd. If the person being bola'd does not react quickly, or does not do what it is necessary to avoid the bola, they will get bola'd. But if they are quick to react, or know what to do, they can avoid the bola. But bola'ing people ALSO takes skill. If you don't teleport, you're probably not going to hit it. And teleporting well DOES take skill, getting the maximum number of tiles each time, knowing what tiles you can and cannot tele on, knowing how to teleport around obstacles, and houses. There's definitely a skill to Bola'ing otherwise any noob could just bola over and over and it would hit 100% of the time (which is what you make it sound like). It really isn't hard, you make it seem like bola's are so overpowered, and it is so difficult to escape them. There are NUMEROUS ways you can go about it. Personally? I play with a mount in the open field. That way in the unlikely chance I don't react quickly to a bola attempt, I can just dismount myself when the bola is supposed to hit and then remount. If you don't like being bola'd so much, why don't you just try to come up with ways like that to avoid it? You know, you might not think it was so "overpowered" if you actually tried to overcome it