You do relize that tamers and maybe some other templates this will destroy right???
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Your Warriors could always wear Plate as a choice but with this change ALL WARRIORS will have to wear Plate and pray that the RNG will Bless them.
Tamers will just sit back and let thier GD do it all. As it stands all warrior class chars (PvP/PvM) will be destroyed.
No stam afects pets much more as they are not armored at all. And poor bards will be nerfed too. Oh lets not forget miners and lumberjacks that may or maynot have room for any fighting skills to help them out.
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No offense but unless I missed something I have not seen one Dev reply specifically to the gigantic stam issue. If they cant even be up front and address a SPECIFIC issue how can you pin your hopes on nerfing the nerf?
Come to think of it I dont think one Dev has made a specific reply to any of the repeated 3 or 4 concerns in this thread.
The only thing I can find at all of substance is this from Mesanna: - "We have no intentions of releasing these changes to production as they are"
Kinda worried that something this big that was worked on for so long was released to test with "no intentions of releasing these changes to production as they are"
I am ofc glad that these huge issues supposedly will not go live but why were they implemented in the first place if they are so off base?
My summary of this whole revamp is that they took a decent idea (to make other armor types viable) and once they started working on it they created something with so many bad side effects they didnt know what to do so they just decided to drop it on test and let the players figure it out.
Its almost as if someone did not want to swallow their pride and own up to the fact that the stamina issues were crippling and out of control so they just kept plodding on trying to build in workarounds (like the crazy mana phase randomness)
Bottom line is that based on past experience I believe only a portion of the most serious issues will get fixed and the rest will just be left to deal with.
If you throw enough darts one or two will stick
And when have we heard this b4, LOL. I got a bridge in UO for sell, starting bid 1 billion.
Ok, someone with at least a little int will notice that the formulas they use on stam damage are broken and doesnt work, they work on UO, better said UO is that give them a job, they are programmers ( me too so i know what i mean) and they ARE NOT STUPID.
They HAVE said that they read and think on our feedbacks, so its so stupid to think that they DONT know anythign about the stam damage being wrong, AS STUPID is to think they will leave it as it is right now.
and i dont think this is the case ........
They HAVE said that they read and think on our feedbacks, so its so stupid to think that they DONT know anythign about the stam damage being wrong, AS STUPID is to think they will leave it as it is right now.
So Goldberg, lets try to not think THEY are stupid ......
and with same reason as that paradigma .... If you let 100 monkeys hit 100 keyboards, they will make UO........
and i dont think this is the case ........
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Lefty - The example you gave was definately a truly awful experience to have gone through and endured. I'm certain I would be equally frustrated, and possibly more cynical of peoples motives as well. However, development teams do change (as do some people), and all I am trying to say is we shouldn't just give up now, and we should instead continue to fight argue for the game we play.
Goldberg-Chessy - No apologies necessary, I can totally understand the frustration. We actually agree quite often on most issues (including many of the fine points you brought up), but I do think the main reason it made it all the way to test center was so we could actually get a feel for the proposed changes, instead of just theorycrafting on them. I will not argue that the changes were/are heavy-handed, or the "best" possible direction, and could certainly have benefitted from a more stable base (like leaving leather stamina damage largely untouched), but I still do believe with some alterations based on feedback (and there has been some great feedback) we could potentially see some more welcomed changes.
I'm also definately not arguing in favor of everything in the publish. Berethrain often comments on how publishes sometimes try and accomplish too much, this could easily be shown as an example of too many systems being addressed in one publish. I can respect the ambitious goal, but can also understand people's disappointment when some changes are lacking.
I realize I am being hopeful and may be in for a rude awakening, but I still prefer at this time to give feedback, argue for the future of the game, and discuss options as we all wait to see what (if anything) will be changed based on our efforts.
Goldberg-Chessy - No apologies necessary, I can totally understand the frustration. We actually agree quite often on most issues (including many of the fine points you brought up), but I do think the main reason it made it all the way to test center was so we could actually get a feel for the proposed changes, instead of just theorycrafting on them. I will not argue that the changes were/are heavy-handed, or the "best" possible direction, and could certainly have benefitted from a more stable base (like leaving leather stamina damage largely untouched), but I still do believe with some alterations based on feedback (and there has been some great feedback) we could potentially see some more welcomed changes.
I'm also definately not arguing in favor of everything in the publish. Berethrain often comments on how publishes sometimes try and accomplish too much, this could easily be shown as an example of too many systems being addressed in one publish. I can respect the ambitious goal, but can also understand people's disappointment when some changes are lacking.
I realize I am being hopeful and may be in for a rude awakening, but I still prefer at this time to give feedback, argue for the future of the game, and discuss options as we all wait to see what (if anything) will be changed based on our efforts.
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IMHO, They should just remove ALL special moves (From Weapons) that came out with SE and add them to the Bushido & Ninjitsu Spellbooks (they require the skill to be effective anyway).
If they did this it would allow everyone who has Bushido or Ninjitsu a lot more uses for all weapons.
I agree with this SSI Debuff (it's on in effect when it's a Dexer vs Dexer fight) Med-able Armor does not keep this effect.
In regards to the Stamina protection: It needs quite a bit of fine tuning IMO.
**Current** Testing was done with 120/120 stamina 115 hp (no armor) 125 hp (with both armor sets)
no Armor was tested with 115 resist (43/43/43/43/43) Full HP & Stamina for Each hit taken, 6 readings.
Damage Taken / Stamina Damage Taken
No Armor = 4-7 / 34-36
Studded Armor = 2-5 / 14-36
Metal Armor = 2-5 / 0-0
I didn't test it with any med-able armor yet. but the damage taken vs stamina taken per hit is way too high (unless you're in plate) it also depends on how hard you get hit
**Proposed**
I think they should just make it so Damage Taken = Stamina Damage taken, then calculate Armor Stamina Protection bonus afterwards.
IMO all armor types (even leather) should grant a stamina protection bonus (increased based on heavier/non-med armor)
Stamina protection. Mana Phasing Cap = 25% (increased in this post)
no Armor 0-5% (depending on race?)
Med-Leather 50% (10% per piecex5) +0% Mana phasing
Studded/Hide 70% (14% per piece x5) +25% Mana Phasing (+5% per piecex5)
Dragon/Bone 80% (16% per piece x5) +15% Mana Phasing (+3% per piecex5)
Metal/Stone 90% (18% per piece x5) +5% Mana Phasing (+1% per piecex5)
Wouldn't be too confusing...
Basically if you get hit wearing leather armor and you take 20 damage, your stamina would drop by 10. Rounded up: 15 damage taken would result in 8 stamina lost
It would hurt my mages, a lot (because all of my mages run with 10-15 dex)... but it does balance out the playing field quit a bit, due to the fact Dexers actually need all 3 stats str, dex, & int.. whereas Mages need only Str & Int.
**hopes it's only material bonuses from enhancing
**
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OMG They knew what they were doing because they already knew how every type of armor would be affected. They also said that the higher your stamina the more you would loose (%20) and they also designed it to work with the RNG. So please don't try to BS us with your knowledge of programing. You're a programmer and you put out this type of work and you know it, I would sure hate to get a program you wrote.
Just a heads up the stamina issues will be addressed with the next publish to TC. Leather armor will be restored to its current state in production. I want to thank everyone who has submitted feedback so far and look forward to reading more of your posts.
I have a question about the disarm delay.
Does this start after the target rearms or right after it is performed. It takes 5 seconds for the person to rearm after being disarmed anyways so it would only be a 5 second delay if the timer starts right after being performed.
What does this mean exactly, did leather on production have stamina protection (same with all armor types), or was it removed or lowered for TC1?
Pretty sure it means leather armor will stay the same as it is now. It will just change it back from the new changes to the old on test center.
ETA: Leather armor had a high stamina impact on test.
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You still don't get the point. Was it broken to begin with?? Why a nerf that seriously affects everyone? pvm, crafter, everything will be affected with this change. with imbueing and reforgeing now all crafted armor can be customized. So why is this change needed??
I'm guessing it was to improve the use of the other armor. Not necessarily because it was broken. If there were no changes to leather any slight improvements to the others wouldn't give enough incentive to use it because leather armor is still medable and provides all the extra mods and resists you need.
First of all i NEVER tried to BS you with my knowledge of programing.........
What i mean that one thing is what you try to get programming an idea, and other is the result you have on the first version (normally is the opposite hehehe )
And about knowing how i program, you will see cause im doing an IOS / Android app about UO....... but wont finish it until end of summer, when ill have some time on RL.....
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I am hoping it means Stamina loss will go back to the way it is on prodo shards. I am also hoping it is not just Leather Armor he is talking about but all gear works like it does on prodo shards in regards to the Stamina Loss.
Don't know where you work but this is fixed in QA long b4 it even gets to testing. If this was in fact broken it would have never made it out of QA b4 hitting the test floor.
Thank You
Specifically addressing the stamina issue is greatly appreciated.
Can we get a quick clarification on the leather armor 'restoration' please?
Does that simply mean that even though other armor types may have more diverse benefits after the revamp, current leather suits will remain the same and not be hit with any negatives or debuffs? Leaving even warriors with the option of not having to totally scrap current leather suits to be competitive?
Thanks in advance!
Thank you for listening and for posting, but I like others am confused about what this means.
I think, and would hope, it means that Stamina Damage will on Test now mirror as it is on the Production Shards (which is to say, not as noticeable as it is on TC now), and that light armorwill not absorb Stamina Damage (just like it does not do so now) and that heavy armor will?
Is that right?
-Galen's player
As it stands now, since they are doing away with the leather stam loss pretty much all other armor changes made do not hold any ground. (No one is going to wear non medable plate for a ssi debuff when its a flat 10% across all non medable armor). As suggested before, I hope they simply push the armor changes off onto the following publish(es).
Let us test the weapon and combat changes etc for now.
This was the change, meaning leather armor would take the most stamina loss when hit.
What it means is that this is no longer the case for now and will be the same as it is on production shards.
A real solution to the stamina problems, armor changes, and etc. My suggestion:
Roll all the resists into one number, we call this AR perhaps,
Have Ring give a specified AR per piece.
Have chain give a higher specified AR per piece.
Have plate give the highest AR per piece.
Don't protect against stamina loss, Take it out as a percentage of the armor you wear as you dress.
Ring reduces your stamina by a set % per piece.
Chain reduces you stamina by a set % per piece.
Plate reduces your stamina the most, but its kinda offset by the greater protection it offers.
I used to play a game set up this way, it always worked fine for me and everyone I knew...
Roll all the resists into one number, we call this AR perhaps,
Have Ring give a specified AR per piece.
Have chain give a higher specified AR per piece.
Have plate give the highest AR per piece.
Don't protect against stamina loss, Take it out as a percentage of the armor you wear as you dress.
Ring reduces your stamina by a set % per piece.
Chain reduces you stamina by a set % per piece.
Plate reduces your stamina the most, but its kinda offset by the greater protection it offers.
I used to play a game set up this way, it always worked fine for me and everyone I knew...
PRE AoS. WOW LOL
And if things were done your way... a *different* host of templates and play styles (E.G. crafters) would be all but destroyed. AoS came out ten years ago, and it's no more going away than Trammel is. Get over it.
A lot of games do this. So a 1 piece of armor would have a defense or armor rating of say 10. Another would have an 11 or 12 etc.
This seems to oversimplify the whole thing, though maybe that is what is needed. Sometimes it's tiresome to fit pieces together, but yet the whole crafting system is built around this.
I don't care to go in that direction quite yet. However, in the latter part of your post I think is what they were trying to achieve in essence. But that fell through because EVERYONE is wearing leather armor the stam loss changes would affect the suits.
The idea wasn't bad in gist, but people are generally selfish and lazy and do not want to give up what they had.
This can be demonstrated with the recent faction points scenario. They were going to set all points to 0 and everyone would lose their faction gear and have to rebuild points to wear them. Too many people complained about this so they scaled the points and botched the points system so where they couldn't wear the items they wanted to anyways, though in the process completely screwing up factions. And the snowball continued downhill.
Sometimes the unpopular decision is the right way to go.
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LOL It was a joke. I did a lot more crafting for people Pre-AoS then I have done after AoS.
I guess it went right over some peoples head. "AR" for the win.
I think most just recognized it as regression.
Thats a step in the right direction! Thank you!
Now can we addess some of the other problems, refresh pot timer, Disarm timer, bleed timer, Moral timer. Compy bow speed, Mana nefs, leaf blade specials.
If your still intent on making life harder for the warrior class how about a few nerfs for the casters, maybe a way for the a warrior to take off their protection so we can make them fizzle spells or a special to make them cast slower.
Disarm, im not against a timer on its use, but a archer can barely hit a mage with a mage weapon as it is now. Putting a timer on it needs a balance of some sort, maybe a longer timer on being able to rearm?
Bleed, again im not against a timer on its use, but its one of the most used ways to stop a mage doing a mana dump on a warrior. Maybe it should be able to disrupt even if the mage is in protection?
There are still a lot of nerfs being handed down to the warrior class here, when in fact there really is no need forit, not for the sake of PvP anyhow. Things are pretty well balanced now and to start making changes to one side without making any to the other is just not going to be taken too well.
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My guildmate and I discussed this same type of stamina damage reduction on the way to a Superbowl party. It is simple and straight forward. I would open the gap up from leather to metal though, so there is more benefit from non-meddable armor (e.g. leather = 6% per piece, so 30% total, and scale upwards accordingly). The exact values would be up to the Dev Team and batch testing, but the principle is the same.
We did not discuss any other trade-offs. I am strongly in favor of a stamina damage system similar to this proposal. Excellent idea CovenantX!!!
Stayin Alive,
BG
My suggestion on the Composite Bow changes can be found here:
http://stratics.com/community/threads/publish-81-bows.294013/
Stayin Alive,
BG
There was a LOT of crafting going on before AoS, a crafter could play a crafter, you didnt have to spend a lot of time fightin mobs to hope for a chance for the RNG to give you an ingredient you needed. Now, it's either do that, or make someone rich buying ingreds from them.
Ok, here is what I would propose for armor changes.
Based on:
* Dmg spread (fire, cold, poison, energy) makes building suits way to tedious to deal with all the details of trying to max out 70/70/70/70/75(Elf) without wasting points etc.
* Armor has to work with imbuing, enhancing, reforging
* Armor materials have impact on the enhancing of the armor
* Max resist is 70 (except for 75 energy for elves) such that 70% of dmg is 'avoided' based on damage type
* Armor consists of 6 pieces (need 11.6 average to achieve all 70)
Proposed change:
2 Resist Types on Armor - Physical and Magical
Max on Physical/Magical 70/70 or 70/72 for elves
Armor Type : Physical Base/EX made/Max Allowed : Magical Base/EX Made/Max Allowed
Cloth/Leather : P 4/5/10 M: 5/7/14
Studded/Bone : P 5/6/13 M: 5/7/15
Ring : P 5/6/14 M: 4/5/12
Chain : P 5/6/14 M 5/6/15
Plate : P 6/7/16 M 5/6/16
Bonus for materials:
Spined : 40 Luck + 2 Phys
Horned : 2 Phys + 1 Magic
Barbed : +1 phys + 2 magic + Mage Armor
Metal:
DC : +3 Phys + 50 Dur + 20% lower req
Shadow : +2 phys + 1 Magic + 100 durability
Copper: +2 phys + 2 Magic
Bronze: +2 phys +3 magic
Gold : +2 phys + 1 magic +40 luck
Aggy : +1 phys +2 magic + mage armor
Verite : +3 phys + 3 magic
Valorite + 4 phys +3 magic + 50 durability
(something similar for wood)
So lets say you make GM made plate armor out of verite:
7+3 = 1o Physical
6+3 = 9 Magic
Six Pieces so suit would be 60/54 base and you would need to imbue at least 2 pieces with 6 more physical and 3 pieces with max magical to achieve 70/72.
The MAX you could make a cloth or leather suit would be 10x6 or 60 physical. If you want high physical resist - wear heavier armor.
Plate should increase str + 1 per piece and reduce dex 1 per piece
Chain/Ring/Bone reduce dex 1
This would provide some encouragement to wear heavier armor for hand to hand fighters and still encourage casting/taming classes to use cloth/leather with the limit on physical
All existing armor would be 'normalized' to this system by averaging Fire/Cold/Poison/Energy and applying a factor.
NO armor bonuses on rings/braces (remove them) since it makes no sense to have phys/fire/cold/poison/energy ratings on jewelry anyways.
Obviously there is ALOT to do here to fix/retro this into existing systems but this would:
Based on:
* Dmg spread (fire, cold, poison, energy) makes building suits way to tedious to deal with all the details of trying to max out 70/70/70/70/75(Elf) without wasting points etc.
* Armor has to work with imbuing, enhancing, reforging
* Armor materials have impact on the enhancing of the armor
* Max resist is 70 (except for 75 energy for elves) such that 70% of dmg is 'avoided' based on damage type
* Armor consists of 6 pieces (need 11.6 average to achieve all 70)
Proposed change:
2 Resist Types on Armor - Physical and Magical
Max on Physical/Magical 70/70 or 70/72 for elves
Armor Type : Physical Base/EX made/Max Allowed : Magical Base/EX Made/Max Allowed
Cloth/Leather : P 4/5/10 M: 5/7/14
Studded/Bone : P 5/6/13 M: 5/7/15
Ring : P 5/6/14 M: 4/5/12
Chain : P 5/6/14 M 5/6/15
Plate : P 6/7/16 M 5/6/16
Bonus for materials:
Spined : 40 Luck + 2 Phys
Horned : 2 Phys + 1 Magic
Barbed : +1 phys + 2 magic + Mage Armor
Metal:
DC : +3 Phys + 50 Dur + 20% lower req
Shadow : +2 phys + 1 Magic + 100 durability
Copper: +2 phys + 2 Magic
Bronze: +2 phys +3 magic
Gold : +2 phys + 1 magic +40 luck
Aggy : +1 phys +2 magic + mage armor
Verite : +3 phys + 3 magic
Valorite + 4 phys +3 magic + 50 durability
(something similar for wood)
So lets say you make GM made plate armor out of verite:
7+3 = 1o Physical
6+3 = 9 Magic
Six Pieces so suit would be 60/54 base and you would need to imbue at least 2 pieces with 6 more physical and 3 pieces with max magical to achieve 70/72.
The MAX you could make a cloth or leather suit would be 10x6 or 60 physical. If you want high physical resist - wear heavier armor.
Plate should increase str + 1 per piece and reduce dex 1 per piece
Chain/Ring/Bone reduce dex 1
This would provide some encouragement to wear heavier armor for hand to hand fighters and still encourage casting/taming classes to use cloth/leather with the limit on physical
All existing armor would be 'normalized' to this system by averaging Fire/Cold/Poison/Energy and applying a factor.
NO armor bonuses on rings/braces (remove them) since it makes no sense to have phys/fire/cold/poison/energy ratings on jewelry anyways.
Obviously there is ALOT to do here to fix/retro this into existing systems but this would:
- Make armor SO much easier to swap out as switching a max phys/max magic piece for the next would be even swap.
- Reduce suit building complexity tremendously
- Reduce Imbuing/reforging/crafting random starting pieces so much easier
- Keep existing armor relevant as it would be converted to similar pieces in the new system
- Encourage suits outside of leather/cloth which 90% of the playerbase currently wears
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I think the consensus would be "please do nothing that requires us to relearn combat and suit making." Many of us it would seem have never quite recovered from AoS!
-Galen's player
-Galen's player
Hit the nail on the head there. Often the excuse is "I do not have the time".
If you have time to play a video game, then you probably have time to tweak your characters.
I think its more of 'please don't invalidate the armor I just spent 50 mil gold on'.
The problem is they are trying to make armor 'balanced' by adding MORE complexity. I'm ok that they change it - but how about reducing complexity when you do so in order to attract new players. Less complexity = good. The game is so complex only the vets can understand it and new players are overwhelmed. Not good.
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Dexxers in UO have always had the same pvp overpoweredness.
Specifically with DP spam or Mortal Spam or Speedhack.
Until the average player that dips into pvp doesnt see these abused on a regular EVERY FIGHT occurence, there will be no new players.
One shouldn't have to cheat to compete.
Diablo has items that increase my movement speed so does LOL, no one wants to buy a game as messed up as this.
Do something or deserve your fate Ultima Online.
Specifically with DP spam or Mortal Spam or Speedhack.
Until the average player that dips into pvp doesnt see these abused on a regular EVERY FIGHT occurence, there will be no new players.
One shouldn't have to cheat to compete.
Diablo has items that increase my movement speed so does LOL, no one wants to buy a game as messed up as this.
Do something or deserve your fate Ultima Online.
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Yeah, right. Players will stay away in droves because of dexxers in PvP.... Do you know how silly it sounds to claim that something they've never experienced in a niche most don't participate in will keep people out of UO?
Thank you for the response, I'm sure you eased at least some of our concerns, it does still leave us with questions though. I'm not sure we players have the current stamina damage formula in any official sense, but it seems to function based off a players current hp, stamina pool, and damage taken. If it is deemed too confusing to release then I will just have to accept that and do the best I can when testing.
I suppose we will still be testing stamina damage reduction on "heavier" armor?
Leather armor - will now function like it does on production. Does this include cloth/jewelry?
Proposed Suggestions based off of Covenant's and Shakkara's posts, and scaled based on most recent Bleak post.
Doing away with Mana phasing and SSI debuff in my post, not a fan at all of random procs, and the subsequent excuses of "I lost/you won because my/your ability did/did not activate..." that are sure to follow.
Values are open to suggestion/debate and just included to give a rough example. If a bonus like the SSI debuff is deemed necessary consider a damage reduction instead.
Tailor crafted studded leather, hide, and bone armor - 50% stamina protection and 50% med function.
Carpentry crafted armor (woodland and stone armor) - 70% stamina protection and 40% med function.
Blacksmith crafted armor (platemail, ringmail, chainmail, and dragon armor) - 90% stamina protection and 30% med function.
Just a rough suggestion based on recent feedback and the hope of a less complex system (whatever that may be).
The way it is currently positioned, you cant balance it without more complexity. I would guess that people aren't spending 50m on leather armor but rather on arties and peerless drops.
*sighs*
The difference, of course, is that UO is an ongoing experience.
Few of us log onto UO to play and learn a new game. We log on to experience content.
The original draft of these changes would have an impact not unlike that of AoS: Total remaking of how we play and what equipment our characters use.
This would be bad. It happened once. Many of us adapted to the results but not all of us did, and to this day AoS remains an extremely controversial system.
They can accomplish their stated goals without remaking the game experience.
-Galen's player
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Some hack who makes a sock puppet on Friday of last week , the same day as the Pub notes are released, should hardly be counted on to provide anything greater than troll bait. Come back and post with your real Stratics account and people might consider taking your thoughts as something other then a sad attempt at stirring the pot. If I was a mod I'd boot this troll for what it is.
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I would suggest a merge...however I am not sure whether or not one really huge thread is better than a couple different threads. Guess a really huge one would still be more organized though.
A clear sign that age is becoming a issue
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Frankly the way so many things are covered in different threads at different points in time, Locking all the existing threads and starting a new one with summaries of Dev input from the locked ones would work better.
Yeah thats a tough call, some of the threads are seemingly about different things, and can either be more positive, or negative in a general sense. I certainly wouldn't want to make the call on which threads are merged, I do however find this one has a lot of great feedback buried within it's bulk.
It seems that Leather Armor on Test will now be the same as every other armor type on prod regarding it having 0 effect on stamina lost from damage taken. Other types of armor will provide reduction on stamina loss as compared with current armor on production.
Thats basically means leather armor remains the same and all other armor just got better.
No warrior will be forced to upgrade their current suits. (Their current suits may no longer be the best available, but they won't be any worse than they currently are).
Changes to the special moves themselves are fine should aid with the same move spam over and over of disarm/mortal/bleed, and hopefully make it somewhat more tactical.
Other than a few special move/weapon combination tweaks, maybe slight tweak to some of the speeds as well. Should make for a solid publish.
Thats basically means leather armor remains the same and all other armor just got better.
No warrior will be forced to upgrade their current suits. (Their current suits may no longer be the best available, but they won't be any worse than they currently are).
Changes to the special moves themselves are fine should aid with the same move spam over and over of disarm/mortal/bleed, and hopefully make it somewhat more tactical.
Other than a few special move/weapon combination tweaks, maybe slight tweak to some of the speeds as well. Should make for a solid publish.
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