Two questions about cheating
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A
Arch Magus
Guest
1. They will do whatever it takes to win. They are that immature.
Also, some people can use what they win to turn IRL profits.
2. I don't think EA can successfully monitor certain programs to any degree.
Also, some people can use what they win to turn IRL profits.
2. I don't think EA can successfully monitor certain programs to any degree.
P
peanutbutter
Guest
1) there are lots of reasons why people do it:
a) it gets past the grind
b) it's easy
c) it gives them an advantage (in PvP)
d) it gives them an advantage (in PvM)
e) it allows them to get items that everybody wants but not everybody has time to work for
f) etc
2) there are lots of reasons why not much gets done
a) people love the 2D client (even non-cheaters) and EA can't get rid of it, but they also can't protect it
b) not enough man power
c) most cheating doesn't really hurt anybody (ex. alot of the arties you buy come from "cheaters" who have artifact timers or bone cutters or whatever)
d) it's hard to prove and easy to get around
EA does its best to stop duping and account hacking and other things that allow people to REALLY hurt the game, but they just can't fix it all.
there are so many methods of boosting combat speed on the player's end - truth be told, there is a server side cap on speed. all the speed programs do is allow a person to reach that speed (mostly)
the training cheats don't hurt anybody - it just saves them from having to deal with buyin gan advanced character token from uogamecodes, which MANY people believe are over priced and which has a horrible check-out process... they don't even use paypal for crying out loud.
the crafting cheats don't do much more than allow people to put much coveted items, materials, and tools on vendors at reasonable prices - it kinda helps everyone really
EA comes down hard on dupers - even to the point of mass guild banning (HAX).
i don't "cheat", but it's not because i have some moral problem with it. it's because i'm on a T1 line and i don't sell much wood. on my vendor, i have like 2 heartwood deeds, 4 yew deeds, and 10 ash deeds. they just sit there. there's no profit in it. the rest of the wood i get (when i feel like grinding out LJ), i use the ash to make bows and the rest to make tables and stuff for friends or to turn in for talismans and stuff that my friends need. i don't do BOD's and all my PvP/PvM characters have been maxed out and set for a long time.
beyond that, i don't cheat because i like UO and i don't want to get in trouble... but i also don't mind certain kinds of "cheating" because it helps the community as a whole AND because there is no reason for many aspects of the game to be SO difficult to work.
most of us are vets. we know the game. we know what we're doing... yet there is no reward for us having dedicated so much time to the game. i'm a GM fletcher, but someone with 50 skill has just as much chance at getting a heartwood kit as i do. if i want to make an archer (just like the one i've been playing for 5 years) on another shard, i have to work it up from scratch. why? why should i have to do that? i've already worked that skill... training it up will teach me nothing.
if the point in starting at 0 is so that people have to learn their skills by playing progressively more difficult areas as they train, why do peopl who have been playing for 5+ years still ahve to start over from scratch.
so, when one of my friends starts a new character and does something to train it up faster, as long as i know that they know what they're doing, i don't hate or look down on them for that. the way i see it, the sooner they get that mage trained up, the sooner they can hunt with me. if they want to take the chance (as slight as it may be) on getting a mark or getting banned, it's their choice.
for many people the simple fact is that if EA removed the ability to access some of these "cheats", they would quit. in reality, sad as it might be, ALOT of people would quit.
now, i post so long about this because i've thought alot about it over the past few years. i quit UO about 2 years ago because i got tired of EA not fixing the cheats. but i didn't understand most of them and how harmless they really were. i still don't do it and probably never will - but it's not worth quitting a game i love because it happens. especially when i know that most of the items i use every day were made or obtained by someone who probably does or has cheated at some point.
so, for you, i would say: don't quit because of it. accept it for what it is and unless someone is directly hurting you (like duping or crashing the shard), let it go. you can still play the game honestly. also, give the UO workers a break. they don't have an easy job with the cut backs and a community that does alot of complaining. they work hard for us and they understand that some things have to be overlooked for the good of the community.
stick in there?
a) it gets past the grind
b) it's easy
c) it gives them an advantage (in PvP)
d) it gives them an advantage (in PvM)
e) it allows them to get items that everybody wants but not everybody has time to work for
f) etc
2) there are lots of reasons why not much gets done
a) people love the 2D client (even non-cheaters) and EA can't get rid of it, but they also can't protect it
b) not enough man power
c) most cheating doesn't really hurt anybody (ex. alot of the arties you buy come from "cheaters" who have artifact timers or bone cutters or whatever)
d) it's hard to prove and easy to get around
EA does its best to stop duping and account hacking and other things that allow people to REALLY hurt the game, but they just can't fix it all.
there are so many methods of boosting combat speed on the player's end - truth be told, there is a server side cap on speed. all the speed programs do is allow a person to reach that speed (mostly)
the training cheats don't hurt anybody - it just saves them from having to deal with buyin gan advanced character token from uogamecodes, which MANY people believe are over priced and which has a horrible check-out process... they don't even use paypal for crying out loud.
the crafting cheats don't do much more than allow people to put much coveted items, materials, and tools on vendors at reasonable prices - it kinda helps everyone really
EA comes down hard on dupers - even to the point of mass guild banning (HAX).
i don't "cheat", but it's not because i have some moral problem with it. it's because i'm on a T1 line and i don't sell much wood. on my vendor, i have like 2 heartwood deeds, 4 yew deeds, and 10 ash deeds. they just sit there. there's no profit in it. the rest of the wood i get (when i feel like grinding out LJ), i use the ash to make bows and the rest to make tables and stuff for friends or to turn in for talismans and stuff that my friends need. i don't do BOD's and all my PvP/PvM characters have been maxed out and set for a long time.
beyond that, i don't cheat because i like UO and i don't want to get in trouble... but i also don't mind certain kinds of "cheating" because it helps the community as a whole AND because there is no reason for many aspects of the game to be SO difficult to work.
most of us are vets. we know the game. we know what we're doing... yet there is no reward for us having dedicated so much time to the game. i'm a GM fletcher, but someone with 50 skill has just as much chance at getting a heartwood kit as i do. if i want to make an archer (just like the one i've been playing for 5 years) on another shard, i have to work it up from scratch. why? why should i have to do that? i've already worked that skill... training it up will teach me nothing.
if the point in starting at 0 is so that people have to learn their skills by playing progressively more difficult areas as they train, why do peopl who have been playing for 5+ years still ahve to start over from scratch.
so, when one of my friends starts a new character and does something to train it up faster, as long as i know that they know what they're doing, i don't hate or look down on them for that. the way i see it, the sooner they get that mage trained up, the sooner they can hunt with me. if they want to take the chance (as slight as it may be) on getting a mark or getting banned, it's their choice.
for many people the simple fact is that if EA removed the ability to access some of these "cheats", they would quit. in reality, sad as it might be, ALOT of people would quit.
now, i post so long about this because i've thought alot about it over the past few years. i quit UO about 2 years ago because i got tired of EA not fixing the cheats. but i didn't understand most of them and how harmless they really were. i still don't do it and probably never will - but it's not worth quitting a game i love because it happens. especially when i know that most of the items i use every day were made or obtained by someone who probably does or has cheated at some point.
so, for you, i would say: don't quit because of it. accept it for what it is and unless someone is directly hurting you (like duping or crashing the shard), let it go. you can still play the game honestly. also, give the UO workers a break. they don't have an easy job with the cut backs and a community that does alot of complaining. they work hard for us and they understand that some things have to be overlooked for the good of the community.
stick in there?
A
AesSedai
Guest
1 - It is easy to do, easy to get away with (most of the time; see below), and gives you multiple advantages.
2 - Whenever they do take a major step against cheating, we the players kind of flip out. We believe accounts of innocents being banned. We say that Punkbuster violates our privacy. Some of us go onto boards to defend the cheating, openly.
-Galen's player
2 - Whenever they do take a major step against cheating, we the players kind of flip out. We believe accounts of innocents being banned. We say that Punkbuster violates our privacy. Some of us go onto boards to defend the cheating, openly.
-Galen's player
Because they can. If a system has a loophole, the players will find and abuse it. Always.
Because they can't. Lack of budget prevents them from solving such problems. They may think that the community prefers updates, new items, world enhancements, over getting rid of cheaters. They probably may be wrong on this one.
Because people,in general,are lazy and they like shortcuts.
And lose monthly subscriptions?
A
Arch Magus
Guest
I'm sorry,
did anyone actually read all this?
OP isn't looking for a thesis, me thinks....
haha yeah no kidding. Me thinks he has taken too many college courses.He does follow basic rules for setting up a thesis outline though.
D
Der Rock
Guest
player
Because they suck and/or CBA doing it properly.
Because they too suck and/or CBA doing it properly.
Wenchy
Question 2 answers question 1. People do it because they no longer fear getting busted. I remember when I started playing 4 years ago and would hear stories of GM's showing up on boats to make sure the people 8x8ing were there. I even watched at Luna when a GM showed up and asked if everyone beating on a Golem was there. Those that didn't answer were taken away and then the GM came back and grabbed their Golem. Today, when someone mentions a GM, the response your most likely going to hear is "what GM's".
R
RavenWinterHawk
Guest
S
Sarphus
Guest
Answer to question 1:
Because they aren't good enough to win and not mature enough to lose. Some of those who can't do cheat.
Answer to question 2:
They fight cheating. I think the reason cheating is so rampant is that EA can't fight all forms of cheating.
I used to think the biggest losers in uo where the cheaters, now i know it's EA for doing nothing.
This is why I was disappointed coming back to UO having left it in '01, to see that they'd added all kinds of gear variations and equivalents of "Epic gear" that you go out and farm for a long time.
As "cool" as it is to add all kinds of top-end things for players to get excited and sink a lot of time farming, making it more and more difficult to create and deck out a competent character (usually the bar is, can you pvp), the greater the incentive for people to use exploits, cheats, hacks, duping or buying gold/items/accounts online, and for all of those things to be provided.
I mean, if it took you three or four hours to assemble a decent set of equipment and then go adventuring or pvp'ing or whatever, what would be your incentive to cheat and take shortcuts? Some would still do it, but it wouldn't put all the legitimate players at a massive time/effort disadvantage.
But, you usually can't go backwards with this kind of stuff. You can only go forwards. If you have broadsword and then broadsword with +60% mana leech +10 mana regeneration 33% chance lightning +10 to all stats etc. etc. etc. (just making up crazy modifiers) and then in the next patch say we're going back to broadsword, broadsword +1, broadsword +3 (like UO had in the old days) people would take an absolute cow. WOW is much in the same dilemma where the curve for new characters or players to catch up is gi-normous yet each patch and expansion only makes it bigger- though WOW got itself into that trap knowingly by designing from the get-go to hook people by giving them constantly something better to farm.
UO headed that way, and basically, the harder it is to establish yourself in a game and start to rub shoulders with the top players, the more attractive shortcuts are. There is no way around that. I agree EA should be doing something-- as far as I can tell, they've almost never (even back before I quit the first time) done much other than some token bans. But I think that a game design should make it reasonable and fun to establish a character, instead of a long, redundant, repetitious and tedious farming chore that takes days/weeks. When you do that, the temptation to find shortcuts, legal or otherwise, is already in place.
As "cool" as it is to add all kinds of top-end things for players to get excited and sink a lot of time farming, making it more and more difficult to create and deck out a competent character (usually the bar is, can you pvp), the greater the incentive for people to use exploits, cheats, hacks, duping or buying gold/items/accounts online, and for all of those things to be provided.
I mean, if it took you three or four hours to assemble a decent set of equipment and then go adventuring or pvp'ing or whatever, what would be your incentive to cheat and take shortcuts? Some would still do it, but it wouldn't put all the legitimate players at a massive time/effort disadvantage.
But, you usually can't go backwards with this kind of stuff. You can only go forwards. If you have broadsword and then broadsword with +60% mana leech +10 mana regeneration 33% chance lightning +10 to all stats etc. etc. etc. (just making up crazy modifiers) and then in the next patch say we're going back to broadsword, broadsword +1, broadsword +3 (like UO had in the old days) people would take an absolute cow. WOW is much in the same dilemma where the curve for new characters or players to catch up is gi-normous yet each patch and expansion only makes it bigger- though WOW got itself into that trap knowingly by designing from the get-go to hook people by giving them constantly something better to farm.
UO headed that way, and basically, the harder it is to establish yourself in a game and start to rub shoulders with the top players, the more attractive shortcuts are. There is no way around that. I agree EA should be doing something-- as far as I can tell, they've almost never (even back before I quit the first time) done much other than some token bans. But I think that a game design should make it reasonable and fun to establish a character, instead of a long, redundant, repetitious and tedious farming chore that takes days/weeks. When you do that, the temptation to find shortcuts, legal or otherwise, is already in place.
L
love2winalot
Guest
Hail: There are different levels of cheating. The lower the level, the more people that do. The more that do it, the more that thinks it is ok. Let's use spell casting off a boat onto a creature on land. Back when everyone in the game was not yet at GM Magery, you would see this all over the place. Hell, it was hard to even place a boat in the water at one point in time because there were so many.
Blocking Monsters used to be huge in the game. Even something simple, like being able to teleport onto the moonglow bank roof used to be a form of cheating. That being, that OSI never intended for players to be able to get up there. Players did it, so as not to have a theif next to them all the time. Lots of players died up there, were stuck, and later the teleporter was put in so you could get down.
imhop, Even ICQ is a form of cheating. I do not think the game ever intended for a player to go to Wind, see players there to PK, and simply use ICQ to call his friens for them all to come over for the Death Party and Looting....You should have to leave, go find your friends, and return, this is my imhop.
I took my Greater Dragon into the moongate shrine in Ilishenar. I used the Follow command. The Gazers, and Imps started casting spells on him, i stood there and healed him with bandages. A couple of days later he was at 100 Magic Resistance. Is this cheating? Yes it is. I took advantage of the loophole of the Follow command that prevents a pet from attacking anything, no matter what that other thing is doing to him.
Player Justice for the most part has been removed from the game. A lot of what goes on today used to be able to be stopped by other players from within the game itself. Good or Bad, agree or disagree, Player Justice works.
Blocking Monsters used to be huge in the game. Even something simple, like being able to teleport onto the moonglow bank roof used to be a form of cheating. That being, that OSI never intended for players to be able to get up there. Players did it, so as not to have a theif next to them all the time. Lots of players died up there, were stuck, and later the teleporter was put in so you could get down.
imhop, Even ICQ is a form of cheating. I do not think the game ever intended for a player to go to Wind, see players there to PK, and simply use ICQ to call his friens for them all to come over for the Death Party and Looting....You should have to leave, go find your friends, and return, this is my imhop.
I took my Greater Dragon into the moongate shrine in Ilishenar. I used the Follow command. The Gazers, and Imps started casting spells on him, i stood there and healed him with bandages. A couple of days later he was at 100 Magic Resistance. Is this cheating? Yes it is. I took advantage of the loophole of the Follow command that prevents a pet from attacking anything, no matter what that other thing is doing to him.
Player Justice for the most part has been removed from the game. A lot of what goes on today used to be able to be stopped by other players from within the game itself. Good or Bad, agree or disagree, Player Justice works.
Ea has let the speehacking go on so long now without doing anything about it.
So if they tried to ban everyone using it, they would lose almost a million dollars of yearly revenue. Say 5000 accounts x 170 dollars per year. ($850,000 usd)
They have put themselves in this situation by letting people continue to speedhack with no worries of getting in trouble.(more and more people start using it every day, you cant compete without it anymore).
I'm pretty sure that the people from corporate have told them that they can't do anymore mass bannings, because it makes them lose too much money.
They need to do something about it, cause it is making lots of people quit.
Cmon Ea do your f*#*ing job.
Thanks
So if they tried to ban everyone using it, they would lose almost a million dollars of yearly revenue. Say 5000 accounts x 170 dollars per year. ($850,000 usd)
They have put themselves in this situation by letting people continue to speedhack with no worries of getting in trouble.(more and more people start using it every day, you cant compete without it anymore).
I'm pretty sure that the people from corporate have told them that they can't do anymore mass bannings, because it makes them lose too much money.
They need to do something about it, cause it is making lots of people quit.
Cmon Ea do your f*#*ing job.
Thanks
That's the problem with EA, they are so stupid.
Instead of thinking about all the accounts they have lost over the years due to people (such as myself) getting fed up with all the cheating. They focus on milking the few remaining accounts, even if it means letting cheaters run their game.
Seriously, about all that is left of the UO PvP population is a bunch of cheaters.... who really wants to play a game like that?
Not me and apparently not many other people. Which is why you log in today and all you see are the same 10-20 cheaters running around fighting each other. Everyone else has left.
Instead of thinking about all the accounts they have lost over the years due to people (such as myself) getting fed up with all the cheating. They focus on milking the few remaining accounts, even if it means letting cheaters run their game.
Seriously, about all that is left of the UO PvP population is a bunch of cheaters.... who really wants to play a game like that?
Not me and apparently not many other people. Which is why you log in today and all you see are the same 10-20 cheaters running around fighting each other. Everyone else has left.
Can I just point out that not all pvp'ers cheat? I know my husband doesn't, and I'm pretty sure his mates don't either. And I'm with the 'player justice' thing. Whether it's gating/bagballing/luring on unattendeds or finding a way to nail the ones who run who knows what in fel, EA would do better to allow players to help sort it. Yes there are power mad little hitlers out there who get carried away, but the majority who care and act do so after making as sure as it's possible to be that they've got a cheater not just a dopey player!
Can I just point out that nobody (or nobody that has a worthwhile opinion) thinks that all PvPers cheat?
Also, lol moved to SnR, how much more ass can you kiss mods?
I disagree. I do not recall a time where stealing and PK'ing were under control because of direct player intervention. Thieves were under control because of guards--- if they stole from you in the open you were often S.O.L. And PK's-- well, usually you're talking about someone's "red" character that they only and exclusively PK with. Players banding together to kill and chase off PK's, can't be everywhere, all the time, waiting. And someone stumbling through the wilderness or out of a moongate towards a town, or a spawn site, suddenly running into a PK(s) was not really in a position to mete out justice for what would happen. When PKs were confronted with a group they couldn't easily kill, they usually just recalled back to a house anyway and waited you out. Or even came back on their blue characters to taunt you.
When "justice" worked, it was much more often because of hard coded game behavior (such as guards). I played in UO's earliest days and aside from some small scale RP or guild related PK hunting, this player justice you speak of was just never prevalent. It was there, it happened occasionally. But killing a PK once didn't stop him from being right back in the same area killing the same miners 2 hours later. (At least, until stat loss... but that tended to just create blue PK's who carefully measured out their kills so as not to turn red, rather than a real punishment to PK's.)
No doubt...... wouldn't want all those 1000's of new players coming here and seeing what a cheat filled pile of crap this game really is.
Wait... what new players?
I was just trying to counter ColterDC's sweeping generalisations. He's done it in another thread too rolleyes:
1) Because it works. And it makes you better. And because of "2".
2) The explanations offered are too many, pick yours. What matters is it happens and it's not going away.
"Adapt" or leave the game.
S
Salty Pete
Guest
Quick question, do you think it is cheating to run a program that plays a looping macro while you play?
Also, do you think it is cheating to change art files on your UO client?