[Throwing] Thrower Advice

[Ford Taunus]

Hellos,

I come back from many year break about month ago and I think it is time to make totally new character
I already have paladin that can solo about 70% of all bosses on game.

I just started to make thrower for Peerless / Champ solos.

I was considering something like this:
Bushido 120
Throwing 120
Anantomy 120
Tactics 120
Chivarly 120
Parry 120 (Got some nice SSI shield)
Will this work or should I consider something else?
If I got stamina 213 and SSI 60 with HML 40% weapon will I get enough mana to spam constant AI?

I also considering this kind:
Bushido 120
Throwing 120
Anantomy 120
Tactics 120
Chivarly 120
Spirit speak 100
Necro 20

Here I have stamina 193 also no shield and SSI 60 with HML 40%

Or should I take totally different template? What mods I should have on my weapon?

I do not make PVP just PVM?

Any professonal throwers here to give me some advices.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Parry is entirely redundant on a Thrower.

I run the second one but with a 100 Necro/70 SS/70 Chiv split. So I can Vamp or Wraith.

I have 150 Dex, 210 Stam, 55 SSI without pots/town/Divine.

 

[CorwinXX]

Parry decreases you chance to hit.
120 Bushido looks like a waste of skill points. What Bushido skills are you going to use?

 

[Merlin]

I like your second build a bit better. No need for parrying on a thrower. Maybe throw healing in there if you don't intend to do vamp form? 80-90 Bushido should be more than suffice on that template, so theres another 30 skill points you can play with. The SS is nice, but I'd say only keep that if you intend to primarily play in wraith form.

 

[Ford Taunus]

Parry decreases you chance to hit.
120 Bushido looks like a waste of skill points. What Bushido skills are you going to use?

I think I need perfection bonus for max damage? Am I wrong?

 

[Ford Taunus]

I like your second build a bit better. No need for parrying on a thrower. Maybe throw healing in there if you don't intend to do vamp form? 80-90 Bushido should be more than suffice on that template, so theres another 30 skill points you can play with. The SS is nice, but I'd say only keep that if you intend to primarily play in wraith form.

So will it be then:
Bushido 80
Throwing 120
Anantomy 120
Tactics 120
Chivarly 120
Spirit speak 100
Necro 20

And where to put 30? Maybe SS 120?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

You need Bushido for perfection, Lightning Strike, Momentum Strike - which is invaluable on ranged characters when spawning, and Confidence.

There are many fights where you will completely drain the opponent of mana while in Wraith Form, and having a 1 in 5 chance of a critical hit from LS will often land you a hit similar to an AI's damage, leeching you back to full so you can AI again. Neria and Osiredon being prime examples as you're also using mana to Momentum Strike to kill the spawn while maintaining damage on the boss. You also can't HLL or Curse Weapon on Osiredon, which is why Confidence is useful, as it won't disrupt your damage dealing.

You don't really need SS that high to drain mana (even 60 is enough), it may sound counter intuitive but draining more mana per hit is actually bad for you, you have a maximum - you're not getting any fuller by leeching more, but the opponent is running out faster, so draining less will sustain you for longer. You would do better splitting it with Necro so you can use Curse Weapon, Summon Familiar etc. Apart from Vamp/Wither/Strangle/Revenant everything useful is 100% successful at 60. You can even block Necro monsters from casting Blood Oath on you by casting it on them first, it has a sound effect for when it wears off and just reapply as needed, stops you from one hit killing yourself with an unavoidable AI.

Should probably point out I don't use HLL on my Thrower at all. I'm either in Vamp Form, or in a 'safe' fight where I can drop down in to Wraith Form to spam AI. It's not usually necessary to use Curse Weapon so karma is never an issue. I would use it against Neira, Stygian, Slasher and that's probably it.

 

[CorwinXX]

I think I need perfection bonus for max damage?

Yes. But if you hit 80+ % of swings there is no much difference between 120 and 80 Bushido.

 

[CorwinXX]

Don't use LS when you want to get mana for AI. LS costs about half of AI cost and gives just 1 in 5 chance for critical. It is like paying 50% of cost to get 20% chance of win.

You may use Mystic Arc for low level spawn. For "spammers" like Neira/Bara/etc I just use a weapon with Hit Area (even when my char has 120 bushido) because I don't want me do reduced damage to the boss with MS.

A thrower is able to chain AI even without Wraith form so usually the faster you drain your target out of mana the better for you.

to kill the spawn while maintaining damage on the boss

"maintaining damage" on Osiredon means "doing 5x-10x less damage without AI", doesn't it?

And where to put 30? Maybe SS 120?

You can get 40 Necro for corpse skin and 110 SS (although with low karma DF gives you only 10 SSI instead of 15 SSI)
You can drop SS to 60-70 and and get 90-100 Healing (with some skill points on jewels)
You can get 30 Focus and use Healing Stone

 

[Ford Taunus]

A thrower is able to chain AI even without Wraith form so usually the faster you drain your target out of mana the better for you.

How you do this?. I have HML wep with HML 50% and I hit about 230p damage per AI and I run out of mana.

 

[CorwinXX]

Get Stone armor and keep close to your target to do full damage. My current thrower has 100 Tactics, 100 Anatomy, 125 STR (only 65 base damage) and 50 LMC can chain AI with a 50 HML weapon. Even with 37 HML weapon she is able to AI 85-90% of hits. With a 55 LMC and maxed damage she would probably could AI even with a 40 HML weapon.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

"maintaining damage" on Osiredon means "doing 5x-10x less damage without AI", doesn't it?

I don't know, but I know it's preferable to 100% loss by switching target.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

How you do this?. I have HML wep with HML 50% and I hit about 230p damage per AI and I run out of mana.

It is not possible to chain AI with a Thrower using HML while swinging at the cap.

 

[CorwinXX]

It is not possible to chain AI with a Thrower using HML while swinging at the cap.

Does wing at 1.5 sec make big difference? Due to this fraction of mana you regen in 0.25 sec?

I don't know, but I know it's preferable to 100% loss by switching target.

I know you are bad with math. So you don't know that switching target for 5 shots then do 5 shot 200 each to the target is better than do 10 shots 40 each to the target.
But I sure you know that you can just put all 10 hits on the main target and let spawn die from the hit area effect (and holy light).

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

You could chain AI if you were swinging slow.

I've never seen a 40/40 split with Momentum.

I don't put Hit Area on weapons for killing bosses.

I don't use Holy Light, it's slow, weak, and a waste of mana.

 

[CorwinXX]

You could chain AI if you were swinging slow.

I can chain AI with 1.5sec. I'm sure I could chain with 1.25sec but I haven't 1.25sec suit to prove it. If you can't then your suit is bad. Chaining AI with 1.5s gives you much better output damage per time than altering LS-AI with 1.25s. There is no sense in 1.25s suit if you can't chain AI with it. Although if you get 300 points you ll be able to chain AI for sure. Just add Nujitsu to your template to dramatically increase your damage output.
My suit really is not good. I crafted it when there was not loads of legendary's in the game. All crafted items are imbued (no legendary artifacts) and no new cool artifacts (like cameo's).

I've never seen a 40/40 split with Momentum.

Osiredon has 80 lowest resist. So you do 200 damage with AI and only 40 damage per hit without AI. This means you do only 40 damage per hit to Osiredon with MS. And it's not 40/40 split because you still do 100+ damage to spawn. So it is 40 damage to Osiredon and 100-150 damage to its spawn.

I don't put Hit Area on weapons for killing bosses.

You should try if you want to keep max possible damage to a boss while killing its spawn as a side effect.

I don't use Holy Light, it's slow, weak, and a waste of mana.

It is waste of mana if you can't chain your special move (AI for a thrower). In other cases it is a free mass damage bonus. Casting Holy Light doesn't interrupt your swings (opposite to necro/sw spells).


p.s. Your advices about LS and MS used to be not bad... they are just outdated. The game has been changed.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I can chain AI with 1.5sec. I'm sure I could chain with 1.25sec but I haven't 1.25sec suit to prove it. If you can't then your suit is bad. Chaining AI with 1.5s gives you much better output damage per time than altering LS-AI with 1.25s. There is no sense in 1.25s suit if you can't chain AI with it. Although if you get 300 points you ll be able to chain AI for sure. Just add Nujitsu to your template to dramatically increase your damage output.
My suit really is not good. I crafted it when there was not loads of legendary's in the game. All crafted items are imbued (no legendary artifacts) and no new cool artifacts (like cameo's).

I rebuilt from 1.5s to 1.25s. My template is 120 Throwing, 120 Tactics, 120 Bushido, 120 Anatomy, 100 Necro, 70 SS, 70 Chiv. Non potted stats of 138 Str/144 hp, 150 Dex/210 stam, 16 Int/52 mana. Could potentially add a robe for 6 more stats. Suit plus weapons gives: all 75's in Vamp/Wraith, 100 DI, 55 LMC, 50 HCI (not intentional just worked out that way), 55 SSI, 30 HLD. DI and SSI on weapons. I haven't redone my weapons since redoing the suit (as I got fed up of POF'ing everything then getting tired of it and remaking) so the HML on them is 27-33. I don't use any legendaries just reforged/Imbued and some VvV artifact pieces. It's quite a pita to get 210+ Stam on a gargoyle without the Obi (which I originally planed for only to find out it didn't exist). I don't see anywhere I can move/adjust any skills or armour pieces without needing to rebuild the whole thing. That said I still don't see how you could AI non stop on a gargoyle with the halfed leeches just with HML (unless - which is what I've been referring to - you were swinging slow enough that the cost wasn't doubling.) I could achieve better leeches if I got more SSI on the suit, or added for the 300 pts, but I still don't think it would be enough to AI endlessly. Even in Wraith, against everything other than the Slasher (which as far as I can tell has infinite mana), there are times when it runs out of mana. I don't know what the max HML on a Throwing weapon is without any SSI on there, I'd guess 50, and I don't recall ever having a 50 HML meleer (before reforging) ever leeching to full every hit. If they could what would be the current point in reforging 100 HML melee weapons?

Osiredon has 80 lowest resist. So you do 200 damage with AI and only 40 damage per hit without AI. This means you do only 40 damage per hit to Osiredon with MS. And it's not 40/40 split because you still do 100+ damage to spawn. So it is 40 damage to Osiredon and 100-150 damage to its spawn.

Then I really don't understand why you said 40 each target, because the above quote you seem to be disagreeing with what you said in the first place? With perfection/consecrate (maybe I've been fighting him Disco'd or Corpse'd or something idk). I generally hit 70 on him, and each Momentum kills a snake, as far as I remember.

You should try if you want to keep max possible damage to a boss while killing its spawn as a side effect.

I don't have space on the weapon, I have DI/SSI/HML/HSL and usually slayer. I also generally don't stand close enough to them for Hit Area to work, due to the under/over throw mechanic. Being too close meant less damage, being too far meant less accuracy, and there's a 'sweet spot' in the middle around 7-9 tiles where you receive no penalty to damage or accuracy.

It is waste of mana if you can't chain your special move (AI for a thrower). In other cases it is a free mass damage bonus. Casting Holy Light doesn't interrupt your swings (opposite to necro/sw spells).

For clarity when you say chain AI, and I say I can't I mean every swing without fail until the boss dies, but no never done that other than on Slasher with Wraith. It doesn't disrupt your swing but casting spells does prevent you from toggling specials. Maintaining damage on the boss (especially on Atlantic where there's usually a big group) is important for getting in the top damager range for receiving drops.

p.s. Your advices about LS and MS used to be not bad... they are just outdated. The game has been changed.

I think you misunderstand how I use them, I don't alternate AI & LS, it's more like 15 AI's, unlucky RNG OOM, LS crit refil, even if it doesn't crit it's pretty rare that it won't give me enough mana for an AI, 15 AI's etc. Momentum is imho essential on a ranged dexxer for spawns, unless you're hybrid with a melee skill for WW, then it's too slow without it.

Edit: Also regarding Holy Light, I have recently played a 120 Chiv, 4/6 meleer under the impression something had improved with it and can't say it has.

 

[CorwinXX]

I rebuilt from 1.5s to 1.25s.

The only idea of rebuilding from 1.5 to 1.25 is to increase your damage output. So words "I used to chain AI but I got better suit and now I can't chain AI" looks... huh... weird.
You can get 50 HML and 30 SSI on a Soul Glaive.

 

[CorwinXX]

Then I really don't understand why you said 40 each target

I said 40 to the main target. Damage to the spawn doesn't matter because spawn die in any case.

 

[CorwinXX]

I don't have space on the weapon, I have DI/SSI/HML/HSL and usually slayer.

You needn't slayer against Neira or other regular spawn bosses that summon during the fight. (And there is no slayer for spawn)

I also generally don't stand close enough to them for Hit Area to work, due to the under/over throw mechanic. Being too close meant less damage, being too far meant less accuracy

There is no damage penaltiy for staying too close. There is damage penalty for staying to far.
There was accuracy penalty for staying to close. You used to have swordsmanship to overdo it. But a lot patches ago it was change so you need 120 Throwing to overdo this penalty.
So now you get max efficiency when you stay close. I prefer to be at 3-5 tiles.

 

[CorwinXX]

For clarity when you say chain AI, and I say I can't I mean every swing without fail until the boss dies

I mean about 1 hit without AI per minute. I don't worry if 1 of 40 hits I didn't AI.

It doesn't disrupt your swing but casting spells does prevent you from toggling specials.

It is not if you have FCR and your timing is good.

Maintaining damage on the boss (especially on Atlantic where there's usually a big group) is important for getting in the top damager range for receiving drops

Your aim is not to "maintain damage" but do more damage. One 200 damage AI to main target and on hit to other target does more damage than two 40 damage hit to main damage. 200 > 40*2 - it's so simple.

 

[Ford Taunus]

Just add Nujitsu to your template to dramatically increase your damage output.

What Ninjutsu special move I should use to increase damage with soul gleave?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

The only idea of rebuilding from 1.5 to 1.25 is to increase your damage output. So words "I used to chain AI but I got better suit and now I can't chain AI" looks... huh... weird.
You can get 50 HML and 30 SSI on a Soul Glaive.

I didn't used to chain AI (meaning EVERY hit) with the 1.5s either. Most hits yes, the amount probably hasn't changed at all, as I haven't changed the weapons at all.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I mean about 1 hit without AI per minute. I don't worry if 1 of 40 hits I didn't AI.

It is not if you have FCR and your timing is good.

Your aim is not to "maintain damage" but do more damage. One 200 damage AI to main target and on hit to other target does more damage than two 40 damage hit to main damage. 200 > 40*2 - it's so simple.

Then your 'chaining AI' is no different to mine.

I don't have any FC/FCR, but even if I did I wouldn't use Holy Light, as I have 70 Chiv.

No. It may do more damage but there's other factors involved why I don't find it preferable. Such as switching targets will cause a delay. Plus there's really no point doing 200 damage to a snake that will die in one MS. If that's how you chose to do it that's up to you. Or on Neira I prefer keeping some spawn alive and on me to leech from when the HML misses and renders me empty.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

What Ninjutsu special move I should use to increase damage with soul gleave?

He's referring to using the skill to meet the 300 point mana reduction for special moves to allow more frequent AI's. In itself it doesn't do anything for Ninjitsu unless you use Focus Attack on non special moves.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

You needn't slayer against Neira or other regular spawn bosses that summon during the fight. (And there is no slayer for spawn)

I haven't rebuilt the weapons on my Thrower for 2-4 rebuilds. Because I can't really be bothered, the difference is minimal, I'm pretty bored of dexxers in general tbh, this is why I didn't rush out to get a set of Cameos or put all the DI on my suit just to add mods to the weapons that I don't need to accomplish the same task. I got fed up of POF'ing up gear and weapons only to rebuild it a short while later and need a different set of mods, lots of wasted POF.

 

[Ford Taunus]

He's referring to using the skill to meet the 300 point mana reduction for special moves to allow more frequent AI's. In itself it doesn't do anything for Ninjitsu unless you use Focus Attack on non special moves.

Is focus attack good?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Is focus attack good?

It scales against Ninjitsu skill. The damage boost from it isn't particularly useful. The main point of it is at 120 it can double all the Hit properties on your weapons. (Meaning all leeches, HLD, HLA, Hit Spell, Hit Area.)

 

[Ford Taunus]

It scales against Ninjitsu skill. The damage boost from it isn't particularly useful. The main point of it is at 120 it can double all the Hit properties on your weapons. (Meaning all leeches, HLD, HLA, Hit Spell, Hit Area.)

Can it be used same time with AI?

 

[Zalan]

Another way to spike your throwers damage is Elemental Fury. It cost very little mana. You can use weapon special moves while it's active.

"Elemental Fury" with 120 Throwing/120 Tactics lasts for 120 seconds, and adds 11-12 Fury to your Fury Pool with every attack, and once your Fury Pool reaches 69 (every 6th or 7th hit), it unleashes anElemental Fury attack. Against another player with maxed resists, the Elemental Fury attack did 10damage. Against High Plains Bouras with a 100% Fire Damage Soul Glaive, it did 132-144 Fire damage.

This damage is additional to that your weapon doese. You will see two sets of damage numbers when it occurs.

 

[Merlin]

The thrower masteries are actually very good, in my opinion. Probably better than the archery ones.

I rebuilt from 1.5s to 1.25s. My template is 120 Throwing, 120 Tactics, 120 Bushido, 120 Anatomy, 100 Necro, 70 SS, 70 Chiv. Non potted stats of 138 Str/144 hp, 150 Dex/210 stam, 16 Int/52 mana. Could potentially add a robe for 6 more stats. Suit plus weapons gives: all 75's in Vamp/Wraith, 100 DI, 55 LMC, 50 HCI (not intentional just worked out that way), 55 SSI, 30 HLD. DI and SSI on weapons. I haven't redone my weapons since redoing the suit (as I got fed up of POF'ing everything then getting tired of it and remaking) so the HML on them is 27-33. I don't use any legendaries just reforged/Imbued and some VvV artifact pieces. It's quite a pita to get 210+ Stam on a gargoyle without the Obi (which I originally planed for only to find out it didn't exist). I don't see anywhere I can move/adjust any skills or armour pieces without needing to rebuild the whole thing. That said I still don't see how you could AI non stop on a gargoyle with the halfed leeches just with HML (unless - which is what I've been referring to - you were swinging slow enough that the cost wasn't doubling.) I could achieve better leeches if I got more SSI on the suit, or added for the 300 pts, but I still don't think it would be enough to AI endlessly. Even in Wraith, against everything other than the Slasher (which as far as I can tell has infinite mana), there are times when it runs out of mana. I don't know what the max HML on a Throwing weapon is without any SSI on there, I'd guess 50, and I don't recall ever having a 50 HML meleer (before reforging) ever leeching to full every hit. If they could what would be the current point in reforging 100 HML melee weapons?



Then I really don't understand why you said 40 each target, because the above quote you seem to be disagreeing with what you said in the first place? With perfection/consecrate (maybe I've been fighting him Disco'd or Corpse'd or something idk). I generally hit 70 on him, and each Momentum kills a snake, as far as I remember.



I don't have space on the weapon, I have DI/SSI/HML/HSL and usually slayer. I also generally don't stand close enough to them for Hit Area to work, due to the under/over throw mechanic. Being too close meant less damage, being too far meant less accuracy, and there's a 'sweet spot' in the middle around 7-9 tiles where you receive no penalty to damage or accuracy.



For clarity when you say chain AI, and I say I can't I mean every swing without fail until the boss dies, but no never done that other than on Slasher with Wraith. It doesn't disrupt your swing but casting spells does prevent you from toggling specials. Maintaining damage on the boss (especially on Atlantic where there's usually a big group) is important for getting in the top damager range for receiving drops.



I think you misunderstand how I use them, I don't alternate AI & LS, it's more like 15 AI's, unlucky RNG OOM, LS crit refil, even if it doesn't crit it's pretty rare that it won't give me enough mana for an AI, 15 AI's etc. Momentum is imho essential on a ranged dexxer for spawns, unless you're hybrid with a melee skill for WW, then it's too slow without it.

Edit: Also regarding Holy Light, I have recently played a 120 Chiv, 4/6 meleer under the impression something had improved with it and can't say it has.

Curious what your suit looks like. If you could post pics (or possibly meet up in game to show me briefly if on Atlantic), that would be very helpful. I'm also having very hard time getting to 210 stamina on thrower. I was hoping I wouldn't have to imbue a bunch of gear, but that sounds like its the only option.

 

[CorwinXX]

What Ninjutsu special move I should use to increase damage with soul gleave?

There is no useful Ninjutsu spells for this template. So if you take wrestling or swordsmanship instead it doesn't make much difference.

 

[CorwinXX]

Then your 'chaining AI' is no different to mine.

If you usually can do 40 AI in a row then don't tell Throwers can't chain AI because for most of people 40 AI in a row is chaining AI.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Can it be used same time with AI?

No it's a toggle spell.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Another way to spike your throwers damage is Elemental Fury. It cost very little mana. You can use weapon special moves while it's active.

Agree, I use the Ele Fury, can't seem to get much out of the other one though.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Curious what your suit looks like. If you could post pics (or possibly meet up in game to show me briefly if on Atlantic), that would be very helpful. I'm also having very hard time getting to 210 stamina on thrower. I was hoping I wouldn't have to imbue a bunch of gear, but that sounds like its the only option.

Head is VvV Mace & Shieds.
Neck/Chest/Arms/Legs/Kilt have a combined 35 LMC, 15 HP, 60 Stam, 36 Mana. Reforged/Imbued stone pieces. (Don't forget enhancing the stone amulet won't give any resists as it is classed as jewelry, even though you can no longer Imbue jewelry mods on it for some stupid reason!)
Back is Rangers Cloak of Augmentation.
Talisman is VvV Primer.
Ring is 4 LMC, 15 HCI, 10 SSI, 5 Stam, 8 Dex.
Brace is 25 DI, 20 HCI, 10 SSI, 4 Stam.
Weps need 45 DI, 30 SSI, plus whatever.
Apron is VvV Crimson.
Epaulettes Of Power.
Corgul Sash.
Boots Of Escaping.
Racial 5 HCI/2 MR.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

If you usually can do 40 AI in a row then don't tell Throwers can't chain AI because for most of people 40 AI in a row is chaining AI.

Well actually it stemmed from Taunas asking you how you chain without running out of mana. The way you replied made it sound like you don't at all.

 

[Ford Taunus]

Head is VvV Mace & Shieds.
Neck/Chest/Arms/Legs/Kilt have a combined 35 LMC, 15 HP, 60 Stam, 36 Mana. Reforged/Imbued stone pieces. (Don't forget enhancing the stone amulet won't give any resists as it is classed as jewelry, even though you can no longer Imbue jewelry mods on it for some stupid reason!)
Back is Rangers Cloak of Augmentation.
Talisman is VvV Primer.
Ring is 4 LMC, 15 HCI, 10 SSI, 5 Stam, 8 Dex.
Brace is 25 DI, 20 HCI, 10 SSI, 4 Stam.
Weps need 45 DI, 30 SSI, plus whatever.
Apron is VvV Crimson.
Epaulettes Of Power.
Corgul Sash.
Boots Of Escaping.
Racial 5 HCI/2 MR.

What is difference betwen VvV items and normal?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

What is difference betwen VvV items and normal?

The VvV Mace & Shields have 10 DI, the Primer has 10 HCI, the Crimson has 10 Dex... that and they're all free, you start VvV with 2000 silver and they cost 500 each.

 

[Ford Taunus]

The VvV Mace & Shields have 10 DI, the Primer has 10 HCI, the Crimson has 10 Dex... that and they're all free, you start VvV with 2000 silver and they cost 500 each.

CAn I loose those?

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

CAn I loose those?

They're insurable like any other item.