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The REAL reason why Slots/Roulette Tables were taken out the game?

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imported_MARCIN2006

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I know that this differs from state to state, but I remember in LA we were told we did not even have to file as self-employed until we'd grossed (not net) $5000 in a year from anything we did. Would earnings from TSO/SL or anywhere else not fall under the same thing.....if not a high amount like $5k then a lower amount that one could make before getting into deep trouble with the IRS?

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I'm no expert on the subject, but I'd imagine you are thinking along the right lines. Someone who is making a few dollars here and a few dollars there won't have to worry about filing this as income, and I would HOPE that anybody making thousands of dollars off TSO would have enough common sense to look into it.

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I remember a post said one of the simolean sellers made $100,000 a yr during the first few years of TSO. However I don't remember which one. Not sure if that was true though.
 
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imported_Shirl1211

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Think of it this way: If we still had casino objects, what would stop you from buying up, say, $5000 worth of simoleans and running them through the casino objects - holding onto the winnings until cash-out is implemented?

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As someone who has the oldest casino in TSO (we opened the night casino objects were released in Test Center) I had to laugh at your $5k scenario. Running a casino was always a money losing occupation -- all the slot winnings come directly from the slot owner's pocket (many players don't know that). When you lost money at the slot machine I'm sure it seemed like the owner was getting rich off of you, lol. I know some casino owners made a good living, but they had to be totally "into it" and I always operated the place just for fun.

When I first read the original post -- that asks why casino was removed -- I was gonna give the snide remark: "Because casino is fun, and fun has been surgically removed from this game." OK. I said it. I'm still smarting from losing casino fun, and because there is no visitor bonus my long-time tour business has gone from the game as well.

Because all of us have the potential to turn casino winnings into real world cash EA cannot leave casino objects in the game. This also means there will be a fine line to walk for any cash awarded in this game -- it has to be within guidelines for being "a game of skill" and not "chance."

With cash as dear as it is these days, I can't imagine giving it away for fun -- not like it used to be. Imagine the 25k jackpot on those hearts slot machines! To think that used to seem like chump change!

Now, TC3 could have casino objects because there will never be cash out in TC3. I brought this up to Lee at the Pub weeks ago. He agreed. But, he said that it was important for TC3 and EA Land to be equal, so that TC3 would provide a valid testing area. The fact that the many perks -- increased payouts, increased skilling -- have been given to EA Land and not to TC3 has discouraged me no end.

I really, really miss the casinos. The day they were taken away remains one of the darkest days for the fun aspect of this game.


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Oh Dali, I am so with you . I met most of my closest friends in the casino's in CC back in the early days. I even met my RL hubby there. Now that was the best JP I ever hit ..lol
 
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Guest

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well Fancey, with all do respect, maybe the team should reconsider whether Cash-In and Cash-Out is really going to help this game, right now, It hasn't at all.

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I will be gone in a hurry if Cash-Out is not implemented.
 
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Guest

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Kat (and anybody else that knows):

I know that this differs from state to state, but I remember in LA we were told we did not even have to file as self-employed until we'd grossed (not net) $5000 in a year from anything we did. Would earnings from TSO/SL or anywhere else not fall under the same thing.....if not a high amount like $5k then a lower amount that one could make before getting into deep trouble with the IRS?

[/ QUOTE ]Don't even get me started on State income taxes!

Yes, this varies from state to state, however, federal income taxes apply to all states uniformly. Like I said, I do not know what this threshold is, for either federal or individual states.

There is another thing I've thought of: How would cash-out be credited to the user? Obviously, EA isn't going to mail you a check or anything like that; the cash-out is likely to be credited to a bank account. Which leads me to my point: Banks are also required to report deposits above a certain threshold over a given period of time.

Clearly, it behooves anyone who may be looking to TSO as a source of income to do the appropriate homework and find out exactly how they are affected by tax code. The IRS tends to take a rather dim view on "I didn't know" answers.

Just so we're all clear: I am not an expert in tax law; I know just enough to keep out of trouble. I am being deliberately vague in my answers because I do not know exact figures, and I'd hate like hell for someone to get in trouble because I threw arbitrary numbers out there. Tax law is one area where you do not want to guess!
 
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imported_Shirl1211

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I think cash out itself will open a can of worms as well, If you can turn money you earn in the game into real money, doesnt that become earned income and therfore potentially taxable?

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That is something to consider...if anybody here has experience with this in Second Life, perhaps they could give us a firm answer.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not familiar with SL, but I'm familiar enough with tax law to comment.

Any income, regardless of the source, is taxable and, therefore, reportable. For most people, failing to report a few bucks here and there that they got from odd places is not likely to get them into any kind of trouble unless they get audited.

If, somehow, you get flagged for an IRS audit, and they find out you've been generating a profit from SL (or, soon, TSO) and haven't reported your earnings, well... Let's just say it would suck to be you!

Additionally - by law, Linden (and, soon, EA) must report earnings in excess of a certain amount. I don't recall what the amount is, but it's not very likely the threshold will be reached in TSO - however, it is very reachable in SL. I'm also not too sure how this can happen without requiring social security numbers or TINs...

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Kat (and anybody else that knows):

I know that this differs from state to state, but I remember in LA we were told we did not even have to file as self-employed until we'd grossed (not net) $5000 in a year from anything we did. Would earnings from TSO/SL or anywhere else not fall under the same thing.....if not a high amount like $5k then a lower amount that one could make before getting into deep trouble with the IRS?

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I'm not familar with any of the new tax laws but a few years back, you we're exempt * using Ea Lands as an example* from paying taxes it your could show solid proof that your deficit (amount paid by subcription) is higher than what your simolean cashout may be. I do know that it is based on what is accumulated and spent during the period of the current year. At least that is how it use to be with the lotteries.
 
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Noddy Bond

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I did a whole stack of research into the taxable side of virtual currency when converting it to real money and that was for UK tax regulations and all i can say on this subject really is OMG its a minefield, now if your a UK resident there IS a certain amount that you can get without it being taxable and i think its about £3000 not sure forget now but if they do come a knocking you will also have to prove its not from an online business basicly speaking dont make regular payouts to your bank account, if your providing a service it is taxable apparently

Most of this has been my own conclusions on the subject as i said its a minefield to look at and the simple solution is to not cashout lol, i am guessing for most of the states it would be somwhat similar to ours in those respects but without looking into it for you all i have no idea and i seriously do not want to read 9 million pages again lol

My suggestion do not cash out if you want an easy life lol

to the original suubject of the casino objects if you was to do it token based then the tokens you save for an object the object would have to be made non transferable non refundable to make the object worthless and to avoid the whole Gambling Laws thing that you guys have otherwise the minute you sell that item for virtual money that you can cash out it still falls under the gambling laws as you aquired it from tokens that were on a game of chance.
Alternativly move all the servers to the EU claim TSO as european and avoid it that way, although i am only guessing here but would you then not be alowed to login because it contains gambling online anyways? not sure how that part works does it break your laws by loging into a gambling site?

An intresting thing i did find on the Second Life wiki was this article:
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Virtual gambling ban
On July 26, 2007, Linden Lab announced a ban on in-world gambling. The new policy bans wagering on games of chance or games that rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events if they provide a payout in Linden Dollars, Second Life's currency, or any real-world currency or thing of value. Earlier in the year, Linden Lab invited law enforcement officials to visit casinos in Second Life in the hope of receiving some guidance from authorities about the legality of virtual gambling. A company spokesperson couldn't immediately say whether those visits played a role in shaping the new gambling policy. The ban was immediately met with in-world protests.[74] Recently, Linden Lab's lawyers have come to the conclusion that popular games within Second Life that are similar to Bingo are skill games, and are allowed within the world (ie: Zyngo, Devil May Care, Quince, etc.) These types of games are not, however, legal in all 50 states (US) or all countries, and they are urging players and owners to check their local laws for the legality of the games. This has not been publicly announced by Linden Labs, but has been confirmed through Robin Linden (Robin Harper, who is Senior Vice President of Marketing and Business Development.)


[/ QUOTE ] located at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Life#Virtual_gambling_ban
Now i am not sure how they class Bingo as a game of skill as i have always believed it to be luck, you get a random set of numbers and the numbers are drawn randomly hence making it the chance factor? maybe i am wrong there but i for one certainly do not believe it to be skill rofl.
So lets have bingo halls instead huh EA, whats good for Second Life is good for EA-Land well untill somone in your whackey gambling department of the governement say otherwise.

Sorry long post i do tend to ramble.
 
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Guest

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After flipping through these pages I got an idea.
2 kinds of sim money, Cash in-able money, and no Cash in-able. Money from gambling can't be exchanged for real money, however money from other things can. If one were to click his account number, he/she would see how much of each he/she had.
 
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imported_Dali Dalinza

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After flipping through these pages I got an idea.
2 kinds of sim money, Cash in-able money, and no Cash in-able. Money from gambling can't be exchanged for real money, however money from other things can. If one were to click his account number, he/she would see how much of each he/she had.

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That would be great as long as the no Cash in-able had no value whatsoever. If it had any in-game value then you know there would be in-game trading of it at some level to convert it to simoleans that could be cashed in.

In the early days of slot machines (talking real life) some machines paid out sticks of chewing gum, not cash. That is why some slot machines today still show bars and fruits -- they were symbols on the gum slots. (Chewing gum was obviously more valued back then, huh?)

It does occur to me that slots in TSO could payout in numbers alone -- as you suggested. The numbers could be seen on a display but have no value. I think many of us who enjoy playing with the casino objects would like having no-value payouts in the same way POGO offers badges. "Oh look, I have 250,000 on the heart machines!" This would allow for "slot tournaments" similar to those held by rl casinos, and prizes would be determined by the casino owner.

For some of us, playing in the casinos was about fun, and monetary payouts were frosting on the cake.

The GAME OF SKILL vs GAME OF CHANCE debate is common in the US as a way to ajudicate whether a game is gambling under local laws. It will give you headaches to follow the reasoning, and that reasoning changes from locale to locale. Is poker a game of chance or skill? How about Bingo? Both games have existed in both categories, depending on location. That is as far as I am going with this explanation, as I am already feeling a pain in my brain.
 
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Guest

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I know that here in Australia there is a way you can earn up to $5000 a year without paying or declaring it for tax. I forget exactly what it was called but it was setup for things like hobby farms. Basically a person can earn up to that amount in anything that is a hobby. I have already asked my accountant about this and that is what he pointed out to me. However, if I was to earn even a few dollars over that amount, tax is then applicable to the whole amount.
 
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Guest

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All of this makes me wonder:

If somebody started a bingo house in EA-Land, would they get shut down by EA?
Interesting.
 
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Noddy Bond

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It does occur to me that slots in TSO could payout in numbers alone -- as you suggested. The numbers could be seen on a display but have no value. I think many of us who enjoy playing with the casino objects would like having no-value payouts in the same way POGO offers badges. "Oh look, I have 250,000 on the heart machines!" This would allow for "slot tournaments" similar to those held by rl casinos, and prizes would be determined by the casino owner.

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Bad news this would still be acountable to the gambling laws as you are still playing a game of chance to get the top spot to win a prize that you can then exchange for some monetary value so it would still be acountable.
This is why i can see the point of EA for pulling the plug on them from the outset just to save face with lawyers, government departments and so forth.
If you go into SL now you will see quite a few slot machines that hand out tickets that you can exchange for prizes that have been marked as no transfer efectivly making them worthless and avoiding the law on them, the thing that is not clear on this is if paying into them is actually illegal, personally if i had set up that law i would have made paying into slot machines illegal for those states that have this gambling law and those not in that state where it applys would be fine therefore it would be on the users head and not that of the company who are running it.
Laws is Laws after all.
theres nothing stopping anyone running a jams contest or somthing similar as those can be argued that they are a game of skill being that how you green to survive the longest
 
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imported_Gracie Nito

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It does occur to me that slots in TSO could payout in numbers alone -- as you suggested. The numbers could be seen on a display but have no value. I think many of us who enjoy playing with the casino objects would like having no-value payouts in the same way POGO offers badges. "Oh look, I have 250,000 on the heart machines!" This would allow for "slot tournaments" similar to those held by rl casinos, and prizes would be determined by the casino owner.

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Bad news this would still be acountable to the gambling laws as you are still playing a game of chance to get the top spot to win a prize that you can then exchange for some monetary value so it would still be acountable.
This is why i can see the point of EA for pulling the plug on them from the outset just to save face with lawyers, government departments and so forth.
If you go into SL now you will see quite a few slot machines that hand out tickets that you can exchange for prizes that have been marked as no transfer efectivly making them worthless and avoiding the law on them, the thing that is not clear on this is if paying into them is actually illegal, personally if i had set up that law i would have made paying into slot machines illegal for those states that have this gambling law and those not in that state where it applys would be fine therefore it would be on the users head and not that of the company who are running it.
Laws is Laws after all.
theres nothing stopping anyone running a jams contest or somthing similar as those can be argued that they are a game of skill being that how you green to survive the longest


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As long as the owner is not charging a fee to enter contest then there is no monetary gamble involved. Having the slot machines award some kind of point system would not be a gamble unless it costs money to play.
 
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Purdy

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Because all of us have the potential to turn casino winnings into real world cash EA cannot leave casino objects in the game. This also means there will be a fine line to walk for any cash awarded in this game -- it has to be within guidelines for being "a game of skill" and not "chance."




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So the Poker, Blackjack and Bingo slot machines should be considered and game of skill?

How about slot machines, that only pays out on the bonus game, and that bonus game is similar to an arcade game? The bonus game is like the 15 line nickel slot type machines.

I'm sure someone is gonna come up with something to get around the skill and chance question.
 
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Noddy Bond

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As long as the owner is not charging a fee to enter contest then there is no monetary gamble involved. Having the slot machines award some kind of point system would not be a gamble unless it costs money to play.

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i understnad the point of this post was to have gambling item that would be putting money into them to begin with hence why i said that to have a ticket system that you can then exchange for an object that you could later sell would still fall under the gambling laws.
but you are correct in the fact that if there is no charges in any way to play the games but can win prizes then it does not fall under the gambling law with the exception of winning money where it does fall under those laws.
ofcourse i have not seen any loopholes in this system as yet but the problem with finding on is that no one has actually confirmed what and what is not classed as gambling any way, this law was obviously set up without much thought put into it, and there just to confuse all really lol.
Heck i do not even know why this law came about in the first place for you all but i feel your pain we do not have this problem here in the UK YET.
 
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PepsiCEO05

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Jason I already explained this to you a million times and this has been answered by many people another million times. Simoleans are going to have a real cash value and to comply with the international online gambling laws, the casino objects were removed. Would you like to see TSO being fined and forced into shut-down?
 
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Purdy

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i understnad the point of this post was to have gambling item that would be putting money into them to begin with hence why i said that to have a ticket system that you can then exchange for an object that you could later sell would still fall under the gambling laws.
but you are correct in the fact that if there is no charges in any way to play the games but can win prizes then it does not fall under the gambling law with the exception of winning money where it does fall under those laws.
ofcourse i have not seen any loopholes in this system as yet but the problem with finding on is that no one has actually confirmed what and what is not classed as gambling any way, this law was obviously set up without much thought put into it, and there just to confuse all really lol.
Heck i do not even know why this law came about in the first place for you all but i feel your pain we do not have this problem here in the UK YET.

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The US had too many laws and ppl involved. We have the federal government and 50 states that all have their own laws.

In NJ we have a Casino Commission that regulates the Casinos in Atlantic City. They tell the casinos how much percentage of their intake goes out in winnings. We can't even have sports betting and slot parlors at race tracks. The billionaire casino owners won't let that happen. So I could imagine if online gambing were legal - how would all the 50 states regulate it.

This is going back a few years but I remember when I was young, like 7 or 8 years old, my family went to Germany and they had slot machines in the restaurants and I would ask my mother for money so I could play slots. A 7 year old could gamble!! I don't know what it's like now or what it is like in the UK but I bet it's not as messed up as it is here. You probably don't make a big deal of gambling like we do.
 
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Jacque

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I'm a founder and beta player, and I remember before we got the slots. Slots just brought a huge injection of fun to the game.

I loved all the casinos and the people you meet, and the contests. So if money was the problem, they can change the slot machines to pay something like tokens that could not be cashed for real money, but can be used in the game or something, or prizes, they did not have to take them away.

Another thing that puzzles me is that pogo games is owned by electronic arts, and cash prizes are awarded there. How come that is not illegal?

Nothing will stop me from playing TSO as long as it exists, but I sure miss the slots.
 
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