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Pick a template besides a tamer?
Skills are:
120 Tame/Lore for the mastery
100/120 Necro/SS for Wither
Other skills are optional. Although I think I need atleast 92 Magery for Invisibility and Mediation or Veterinary to keep my pet alive but I'm not sure.
I've already done solo some spawns, including Dragon Turtle spawn but I don't like how it goes. Strong monsters (for example, Mephitis, Rikktor, paragon Succubus), that constantly switch aggro, kill me more often than I'd like. I usually try to invis and immediately run away, but sometimes it does aggro on me again before I get out of range.
Probably I should try a Mage Weapon with 120 Magery (this means putting 54 more points in Magery) or mass Paralyze Fields with 100+ Eval (this means not enough mana for Taming Mastery).
120 Tame/Lore for the mastery
100/120 Necro/SS for Wither
Other skills are optional. Although I think I need atleast 92 Magery for Invisibility and Mediation or Veterinary to keep my pet alive but I'm not sure.
I've already done solo some spawns, including Dragon Turtle spawn but I don't like how it goes. Strong monsters (for example, Mephitis, Rikktor, paragon Succubus), that constantly switch aggro, kill me more often than I'd like. I usually try to invis and immediately run away, but sometimes it does aggro on me again before I get out of range.
Probably I should try a Mage Weapon with 120 Magery (this means putting 54 more points in Magery) or mass Paralyze Fields with 100+ Eval (this means not enough mana for Taming Mastery).
In general I just think taming is mostly useless for spawning... too many other templates that are so much better.
I suppose a pet can be useful for paragons, but I never spawn in Ilsh (except maybe the weld spawn once in a while). Even then, an RC is prolly preferable.
I suppose a pet can be useful for paragons, but I never spawn in Ilsh (except maybe the weld spawn once in a while). Even then, an RC is prolly preferable.
A paragon GD wasn't a problem but paragon succubus often ignored my pet and attacked me.
Succubus (paragon or normal) have an aura that does damage. They can retarget anything the aura hits. A paragon GD will prolly only retarget you if you move.
What can I do to survive better?
Wrestling or a mage weapon will only help against their melee damage, it won't help against spells or the aura. Your best bet it to keep away from them and hold still. If you need to move around, use teleport (paragons don't see teleporting as "movement" for retargeting purposes).
My preferred Tamer for spawns is a 4/6 Chiv, Vamp Form dexxer, with Vet. I have a particularly high resist GD that I use as a shield (as per the advice in the Necro thread about positioning) I stand directly under it Vetting with it told to stop until I have a lot of spawn surrounding, then I tell it to guard as I hit Whirwind/Hit Area, 2 usually kills everything and the GD finishes what's left. Casting spells can cause retargets as a monster may be about to lose aggro just as it hits. You can also Holy Light with pet on guard.
Also, not many people seem to know this but if you make a macro for your pet to kill itself it will attack anything that's aggro'd on it.
It helps obviously that single slayers Spider/Terrathan/Ophidian/Dragon are available for those spawns taking you straight to the damage cap.
On Meph, it's just a case of positioning, every damage tick hitting it can cause the counter attack web/teleport so the GD's melee/2 spells/breath/Bleed all hitting will mean it happens a lot just stay adjacent to the pet with the pet on same tile as Meph, 4/6 Chiv is quick enough to cure and heal yourself. You can AI to get it done quicker and don't use Hit Spell.
For Rikktor, positioning, Hit Harm, Dragon Slayer and AI. It only changes target if it EQ's, it only EQ's if it isn't interrupted.
These have all been doable like that for a very long time with much worse gear than is available now. The first one I made used a Radiant Scimitar and a shield. Most recently I had this built for a gargoyle using the disc mace/maul equivalents for AI/Double Strike this was for BT Captains combined with Beetle/Mare. (Though my Tamer is now a T hunter / occasional refinement thief.)
Where most Mage/Tamers fail on things like Meph, aside from not knowing about melee defense, is trying to move away to heal, it's just wasted time taking those steps, it doesn't get it off you. Least of all if your pet is still attacking it's still going to be webbing you.
Pet control, positioning and melee defense are all way underrated imo.
The other good thing with the Vamp dexxer Tamer, is on lesser monsters, or fights where there's a group you can tank with the pets as additional damage (depending on if the monster counter attacks obviously) you can sometimes get away with a Beetle/Mare combo for halfing their resists, or a pack of frenzied ostards... those are really for 0 threat situations though like... Vorpal Bunnies lol (though I'm sure there's another monster or two they could work for.) If you could set up a tank build Parry or Ninja perhaps you could tank Rikktor while they tear it to shreds. Serrado is also weak to physical resist and Snake slayer..
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RC doesn't follow me, so it's not able to tank for me at a spawn, especially on first levels when I move a lot.
I have tried Mysticism instead of Taming and didn't like the results.
Cleansing Wings is very good. Mass Sleep is very good.
Mystic Weapon + Enchant is probably better than a Mage Weapon, but I used Wrestling (and a +25 SDI spellbook in my hand).
All direct damage spells are weak... probably except Nether Cyclone. NC does1.5x more damage than Wither... but it takes 1.5x more time and 2x more mana to cast. And there is no fire or poison direct damage to use with Corpse Skin.
I have very little experience as a Necro-Mystic but it seems even Necro-Mage would be better. At least a mage has summons that follows him and a set of fire direct damage spells.
I know a dexxer can do spawns very well but I don't want another one dexxer...
IMO, wither with high sdi would be your best bet against the spawn. For most of the spawn I would be surprised to see any pet doing much damage at all compared to wither.
Yes. I needn't more damage against the spawn. I need more defense and may be more damage against the boss.
Perhaps it would be more beneficial to go:
110 Tame
110 Lore
60 Necro
80 SS
120 Mage
120 Med
120 Weaving
Use the -0 Mage Weapon (change to 30 SDI book when WOD'ing), and a VvV Crystalline (to take 20 pts out of Magery into SS), plus a Wizard's Curio.
Thuderstorm/Essence Of Wind are good with 4/6 casting and cover a bigger area than Wither.
You can Gift Of Life/Renewal on your pet or self, as well as having Arcane Empowerment/Greater Heal.
You can still use Corpse Skin/Evil Omen/Wraith Form. (Don't forget to allow an extra 5 fire/energy for Wraith Form.)
Similar to mine except I have Eval/Anat/Parry instead of Tame/Lore.
110 Tame
110 Lore
60 Necro
80 SS
120 Mage
120 Med
120 Weaving
Use the -0 Mage Weapon (change to 30 SDI book when WOD'ing), and a VvV Crystalline (to take 20 pts out of Magery into SS), plus a Wizard's Curio.
Thuderstorm/Essence Of Wind are good with 4/6 casting and cover a bigger area than Wither.
You can Gift Of Life/Renewal on your pet or self, as well as having Arcane Empowerment/Greater Heal.
You can still use Corpse Skin/Evil Omen/Wraith Form. (Don't forget to allow an extra 5 fire/energy for Wraith Form.)
Similar to mine except I have Eval/Anat/Parry instead of Tame/Lore.
It costs 2x more mana, takes 3x more time to cast and does 2x less damage. As to me Wither is much better (I have tried both).
I have split my bard tamer into two chars, had moved necro and taming to a gargoyle. Now my tamer has:
120 taming/lore (for mastery)
95 vet (it's my main way of healing my GD)
100 necro/120 ss (for wither and wraith form)
92 magery (mainly for invis)
108 wrestling (will be 120)
43 med (will be 31 - to be able to enter the trance sometimes)
Till now I like how it does... but I haven't bonded pets so I haven't tried any big staff... and my suit is a piece of crap right now because I have no any good armor for a gargoyle. (for example, my kilt has 2 int, 3 hpr, 4 mr and some res - (it's the best I found on the poor Europa market)
120 taming/lore (for mastery)
95 vet (it's my main way of healing my GD)
100 necro/120 ss (for wither and wraith form)
92 magery (mainly for invis)
108 wrestling (will be 120)
43 med (will be 31 - to be able to enter the trance sometimes)
Till now I like how it does... but I haven't bonded pets so I haven't tried any big staff... and my suit is a piece of crap right now because I have no any good armor for a gargoyle. (for example, my kilt has 2 int, 3 hpr, 4 mr and some res - (it's the best I found on the poor Europa market)
Given what you said previously about wanting defense and more damage on the champ it seems an odd set of skills and levels to go with. The offense on champ is basically just the pet. The low med is going to make having 120 Tame/Lore for the mastery kinda counter productive as you won't be able to sustain it for long, especially if you need to use Magery for anything, and 120 points just for defense also seems a waste.
It looks designed for one purpose, but spread too thin for that too.
Even if Weaving isn't an option I still think it could be much more solidly built.
It looks designed for one purpose, but spread too thin for that too.
Even if Weaving isn't an option I still think it could be much more solidly built.
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Ran champs with about every tamer temp there is out there at one point or another. Best two imo is either chiv/archer/tamer or mage/sw/tamer but nothing cuts through them quicker/easier than the Sampire or some variation of it.
Have been considering trying a necro/sw/tamer the last week or so.. mastery and gift of renewal seems to make the GD do ok without gheal...
Have been considering trying a necro/sw/tamer the last week or so.. mastery and gift of renewal seems to make the GD do ok without gheal...
With SW I wasn't able to kill fast enough to progress at the Turtle spawn. As to the boss, the most difficult part is to get it to 32%. If I managed to get it there without WOD,I'm definitely able to finish it without WOD. So SW looks useless for me.
I always have mana for mastery when I need it while I'm doing 1-4 levels. As to bosses I need wait till my GD get bonded to check it.
I don't expect to do spawns as fast as a sampire can do.
I always have mana for mastery when I need it while I'm doing 1-4 levels. As to bosses I need wait till my GD get bonded to check it.
I don't expect to do spawns as fast as a sampire can do.
Think your numbers are a bit off.
With 40 LMC, Wither costs 14, Wind costs 24.
With 3/6 casting, Wither is about 1s, Wind is 2.5, so at 4/6 would most likely be 2s.
On the same monster, with the same SDI, Wither did 79, Wind did 53, difference of 26.
However, you also have to take into account with Wind you're hitting 2-3x the amount of spawn, and require half as many skill points.
But yeah if you can't get a Focus it probably isn't worth it for you.
If getting it to 32% is difficult, then surely something that speeds up the last 32% is a good thing.
My numbers were rounded. It's expected when someone writes "2x"/"3x" and not "1.23", isn't it?
For my char with 40 LMC Wither costs 13, Wind costs 24. And this is very close to 2x difference.
It seems you don't know that 1 FC means 0.25 sec, so at 4/6 it will be 2.25 sec - not 2 sec.
It seems you don't know that with SW you need additional 0.25 sec (with 6 FCR) to recover from casting. And with Necro you don't (so you never get message "You have not yet recovered from casting a spell").
With 2/6 you can cast Wither every 1.0 sec. With 4/6 you can cast Wind every 2.5 sec. With 2/6 you can cast Wind every 3.0 sec.
At 120 SW with 6 focus Wind does 32 damage. To do 53 damage you must have 66-68% SDI.
At 120 SS Wither does 48-56 damage. With 66 SDI you do 79-92 damage.
I'm not going to state that you got various damage in 79-92 range and posted the lowest number you get. I suggest that you didn't know that Wither does damage in range... and you wasn't able to catch to cast it several times... and you was so lucky that you got the lowest possible number in your first try. (And the same happened when you posted damage your thrower does.)
It's better to try speed up the whole process than speed up just last 28%.
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No. Personally I find it misleading.
I think you're reading a bit too much into my testing tbh lol. I literally logged in, copied my character to test, upped Necro so it could Wither and went and hit the Turtle spawn. One Wither, and one Wind on the same monster for those numbers. The character had about 96 SDI. Same testing with my Thrower, I didn't replicate it, just hit the first Dragon I see twice.
Plus, you're seriously going to talk about cherry picking high/low numbers when you've just said:
With 2/6 you can cast Wither every 1.0 sec. With 4/6 you can cast Wind every 2.5 sec. With 2/6 you can cast Wind every 3.0 sec.
And cherry pick minor negatives and ignore all positives. I mean the ultimate goal of any spawn is to kill the champ and get the prize, how much is full(ish) Necro helping you on any champ. Vs How much is WOD, also factoring in you can use WOD for finishing off the cirtters on 4th level Turtle. Nothing in the full Necro arsenal is of any real benefit on such a template, you can't Corpse because you'd be raising it's phys making your GD weaker, Omen is most likely going to be ruined by damage ticks of bleed etc, plus most champs you're not going to do enough damage with Necro to leech any mana, aside from the fact most have pitiful mana pools. At least with WOD you do a big enough chunk to leech something.
Yes it is, but you rejected doing that, so any speed up is better than none.
Your posts are kinda baffling in that you ask advice, then argue the toss over it, it's really not that big a deal. But whatever man, as you've said you can't a Focus on the shard it's for so it's all moot anyway. But I do think you're otherwise rejecting a very good skill out of hand on some very lopsided logic. I usually don't go with the majority, but the majority of people use SW over full Necro on Atlantic for PvM, yeah it's easier to get a Focus but they wouldn't be jumping on the bandwagon if Necro had some power in the finale (and on a non Mage/Eval setup, it doesn't).
And as always, it's all just my opinion, good luck to ya with it.
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Yes. Sure. You are just always getting 1 utmost value of 20 possible values. Probability theory says it may happen so I trust you.
With Wind you can do to a target 32/2.5 = 12.8 damage per second. With Wither you can do to a target 52/1.0 = 52.0 damage per second (at average). Doing 4x less damage (3x less with Protection) is just a minor negative, isn't it?
A player with "120 Tame, 120 Lore, 95 Vet, 100 Necro, 120 SS, 92 Mage, 30 Med, 120 Wrestling" finishes 4th level Turtle before a player with "110 Tame, 110 Lore, 60 Necro, 80 SS, 120 Mage, 120 Med, 120 Weaving" opens 4th level.
Have you ever tried it in practice or it's just your would?
I do 100 damage per target against 0 cold res. And I need to do 45 damage to get back mana I've spent (60 damage when taming mastery is on).
Till now I've done Dragon, Demon, Turtle, Bara and always leached enough mana while leveling.
It because I ask for advice that helps and argue against advice that hampers.
When someone suggests to use spell that I've already tried and rejected I explain the reason why I've rejected it.
When someone says that it's not possible to do what I have already done (for example, leach mana or maintain mastery) I can take it as good advice.
And when someone gives advice to get 4/6 with Crystalline Ring and a -0 Mage Weapon, this means not only he hasn't tried it in practice but also he hasn't even tried to imagine how it would look.
But you don't factor in any of the positives, that you are hitting more than double the spawn (which collectively means doing more damage and leeching more mana), or using half the skill points.
I wasn't talking about while leveling, I specified on the champ, and yes, I've played full Necros for years on champs, and on the final champ Necro with just Taming for damage isn't doing anything substantial compared to SW.
None of those champs have 0 cold resist.
Leveling the spawn faster doesn't count for anything. Doing more damage/killing the champ faster (especially if you're doing Turtle/and Ilsh spawns, where people come in at the last minute) is more beneficial.
You haven't done this. (How would I know... because as below, you didn't think the gear was possible.)
Plus, even on paper; your extra 20 points in Tame/Lore = no benefit leveling, Vet = no benefit leveling, Med/Wrestle = no direct benefit leveling. (Compared to the other template/setup this is.)
**Also, if you think Wither is that much of a boon, you could even go 80 Med/100 Necro/100 SS and still have 120 Weaving with the extra skill points you get on the Balakai Staff/Curio/Cryst and have a much stronger template. Hell, you could even work Midnight Bracers into it if you wanted.**
You can get 4/6 with a Crystalline and -0 Mage Weapon. But even if you couldn't, it's suggestions based on resolving what I see as the biggest issue with your template, which is spreading the skill points too thin.
If you're going with 30-40 Med or whatever it was, running Consume Damage, and (as usually happens) needing to cast Heals/Cures/Invises then your mana is going to drop like a rock. Especially in a protracted fight where you're only damaging with a GD. Even in Wraith, with Wither, on Rikktor your mana isn't going to last. Plus on Rikktor if you're Vetting you're getting EQ'd which means more mana on healing, or you're flying out of range which means your GD taking more damage, which means longer time in range Vetting.
I think you've also severely limited what you'll be able to do with it with regards to other bosses. Unless this is just a spare character you can afford to devote to just those 3 champs (which are more or less thought of as the easiest ones) because you have multiple accounts or something, then it seems like a big waste of a character slot. Consume Damage doesn't work on every monster, which puts reliance on Vet which means proximity, or Mage heals which mean mana/Med requirement.
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Just to through a couple thoughts in:
IMO, the better spell has a lot to do with which spawn (and what level) spawn you're doing. For example:
Coon spawn I do wind for level 1 and 2 because it basically 1 hit kills everything on the screen. But I use wither for level 3 and 4... even if wind might do more overall damage it isn't enough to 1 hit kill the mages... wither is.
Turtle spawn is much trickier cause the myrmidex don't have mana to leech. I stay out of form and run through and get as many as I can to chase me and use EQ. Then on level 3 I switch to wraith form and use wither. Wind hits more damage, but doesn't 1 hit those darn gorillas, wither does. Continue with wither through level 3 as well, draws less agro and kills the ones on me faster. I actually like my Mystic for level 4... get all the Dino's to chase you east of the alter and tele across the stream. Pop into stone form and use a Dino slayer to hail storm or nether cyclone.
IMO, the better spell has a lot to do with which spawn (and what level) spawn you're doing. For example:
Coon spawn I do wind for level 1 and 2 because it basically 1 hit kills everything on the screen. But I use wither for level 3 and 4... even if wind might do more overall damage it isn't enough to 1 hit kill the mages... wither is.
Turtle spawn is much trickier cause the myrmidex don't have mana to leech. I stay out of form and run through and get as many as I can to chase me and use EQ. Then on level 3 I switch to wraith form and use wither. Wind hits more damage, but doesn't 1 hit those darn gorillas, wither does. Continue with wither through level 3 as well, draws less agro and kills the ones on me faster. I actually like my Mystic for level 4... get all the Dino's to chase you east of the alter and tele across the stream. Pop into stone form and use a Dino slayer to hail storm or nether cyclone.
It does for me, how much SDI are you using?
EDIT: Nevermind, it's actually Thundrstorm, I use both.
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Does slayer on a book work for Mystic spells?
Yes.