Smelting

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Basara

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Pavel, we have tested on longer numbers. It was years ago, and the results were the same.

The issue isn't balance over time - it's the fact that there is "result clumping" greater than what should be expected for a near-50% chance, let alone what one sees when the success or failure chances are much greater.

One has to first look at the long-term balance. That proved that the expected mean for the smelt numbers was accurate, in those older tests.

However, looking at the same data in smaller samples of consecutive attempts, rather than totals, shows abnormally long stretches of SUCCESSES AND FAILURES, that if the RNG was working as (or approximating) a fair die, should not be appearing SO MANY TIMES over the size of the population. If X successes or X failures in a row are so unlikely that the probability of such a stretch is 1 in 10,000, then seeing 20 of them in a 1,000 - or even a 10,000, attempt population should be throwing up warning flags about the RNG concerning its seed. 20 in 100k attempts, would be acceptable, almost expected (well within the expected value range at that size); but for test populations that are still large, but powers of 10 smaller, those kind of results are extreme outliers.

That's the point we've been repeatedly been trying to make, and it keeps getting repeatedly ignored by those misrepresenting the issue.

The RNG is fair over long periods of time, because its inefficiencies occur evenly spread over the entire range of results, given enough time - but is somehow getting its seed from a value that is not conducive to random number generation over short sampling times, as it does not produce significant variation short-term.

It would be like trying to figure out what the average level of ambient light is for an area. If you take the readings all day long - and do it for different weather conditions on every day, you'll get a good result.

But if all your samples are an hour before sunset, or all at 1 PM, they'll have a lot less variation between samples than if you combined the two sets of data together and compared all the results.


And, for the person wondering about the Hubble comment? I was illustrating a point, that went right over your head. Testing methods are only as good as the tool using them. If you assume the testing method is relevant (or correct), when it isn't, the data that results from the test is meaningless, and will probably cost you (like being caught speeding in a non-US country by going 75 MPH in a 75 kmph zone, because your kid played with the dash buttons and switched the digital speedometer display to English units - Had something similar happen to an internet friend once).

For looking at problems with short-term streaks, you don't look at the totals for 100k tests, and ignore the raw data. You look at the totals, see that the mean is coming out correctly, and THEN start investigating what could be causing abnormally common data clumps in the test data (since the clumping is occurring with both positive and negative results, and balancing out the mean that way). It's like looking at the mean number of Christmas Cards sent out over the year, then expecting that number to be averaged out per month, and not be clumped in November & December. If something is causing large clumps in the results, there is probably something there (in the card case, the date of Christmas).
 

Olahorand

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Success Rates in smelting are a joke. To make the success rate into 100% for GM miners would kill the already damaged market. It would only benefit the scriptors and push any Legit miner out of business.
not everybody mines for selling the ingots nowadays.
The problem is, with the current low chances a non scripting miner has much less chances, to get the amount of ore he may need for such trivial tasks as enhancing or smithing.
Adjusting the success rate of smelting would not only reduce the time wasted for the tedious taks of mining, but lower the need for casual players to buy ingots from scripters or power gamers.

*Salute*
Olahorand
 
T

Traveller

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You do not understand, because you continue to stick your head in the sand.
Basara, the only one who is sticking his head in the sand is you. I have no problems with people who have strong opinions, but I really despise people who clearly do not even bother to read what they are replying to. I suggest you take some classes in reading comprehension, because I was basically agreeing with you, except for some minor points, and actually was giving you some suggestions on how to make your arguments more effective. Well, I pity the forums you are moderator of, if this thread reflects your ability to read.

Thread is over, as far as I am concerned. Feel free to go ahead whining like forum pvpers instead of actually helping the devs solving the problem. After all that is not my concern.
 
S

Sheridan

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If you folks wish to continue bickering back and forth, please take it to PMs.
 
P

pavel.vesely

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to Basara: My method or yours, I don't give a damn really. For me results or ingots I've got is the thing that matter. What I am talking about are people. People who fail to smelt valorite ore ten times in a row and come here to cry. Well such occurences are impropable, but not imposible, it happens to me all the time. And one other thing, basically everyone comes here to say give me this, give me that. As I see it, if you want ingots, there is old, perfectly functional, way to get them, put your effort to it.
 

Basara

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And, Pavel, that's the people who are wondering about the issue - those that are mining it for themselves. I agree with you about the "gimmee" crowd - the ones that 100% return on all smelts.

But when it comes to the 52% to 57% chance of success on Valorite...

Improbable, we understand - but when occurrances of the situation occur far more often than the odds for such an improbable circumstance would indicate, then we speak up. The odds of losing a stack of 25 ore completely is between 1-2% (6 straight fails). when we start seeing it 10%+ of the time, we have the right to be scratching our heads, wondering what the heck is wrong. I've not succeeded on the first smelt of a stack of 25 ore from a valorite elemental since 2006 - and I kill about 5-10 of those a month! Granted, I started splitting up some of them in smaller groups, but I still attempt to smelt half of them as the full pile, and they never succeed the first time, and I'm often lucky to see 50 ingots from 5 valorite elementals, if I smelt the ore starting with piles of 25. Tycolby has had some incredible luck the other way - luck that illustrates the same streakiness going in the opposite direction - then last night, as both of us were mining with gargoyle picks (he's my Guildmaster on Lake Austin), and we were discussing the streaks, his good luck ended, and after killing two valorite elementals from one mining spot in Fel, he got TWELVE ingots total (all from the second elemental) - he failed all the ore away from the first, and failed twice on the second, before succeeding.

We're not crying - in fact it was good for a laugh. all we ask is that someone look into the seeding of the RNG to see if it can be made where less clumping occurs (though it wouldn't break my heart for some script miner to fail 12 times in a row on a stack of 30k ore).
 

Maplestone

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Perhaps there needs to be an estemed guild of Sosarian Statisticians dedicated to persuing the reports of gremlins with the tools of arcane probability analysis?

(one of the problems we humans run into with randomness is that our brains are hardwired to look for patterns, to assume that exist patterns ... we instinctively seek to draw constellations. We don't deal well with truly random data)
 

Restroom Cowboy

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Perhaps there needs to be an estemed guild of Sosarian Statisticians dedicated to persuing the reports of gremlins with the tools of arcane probability analysis?
You do know that gremlins are the unfortunate spawn of underpants gnomes yes? they are a result of profit......................big big profit from 11 year old vintage diaper scum.
 

It Lives

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I sure would like my smelting of Ores to be more dependable.

Increasing the smelt ratio has my vote.

In fact I use the player feedback on UO home page at least once a month concerning this Problem.:D