Should Thieves lose Karma for Stealing from Monsters?

[NewThunder]

I do not think Thieves should lose Karma for stealing from monsters!

 

[Oriana]

Hhmmmm...That's an interesting question. On one hand it's stealing, which by nature is naughty and should loose karma. However, they are monsters and by nature are naughty. So by default they should negate each other one would think?

 

[weins201]

If you want to honorably get tiems from monster kill them off and loot them.

 

[Oriana]

If you want to honorably get tiems from monster kill them off and loot them.

Good point!!

 

[NewThunder]

I guess I just do not see how stealing from a monster should effect your reputation.

 

[Shelleybean]

I agree. In fact, we gain karma by *killing*them, but lose it when stealing from them? It does't really make sense.

 

[Salty Pete]

I think we should gain FAME when stealing from mobs and players based on the player or mob's fame level and lose karma.

 

[house4saleUO]

I do not think Thieves should lose Karma for stealing from monsters!

Steeling is steeling no matter who you do it to!!! Some monsters you kill out there give you neg karma to!! And they are monsters!! (serpentine dragon comes to mind).

 

[Petra Fyde]

The act of stealing gives bad karma, that's the coding. I don't suppose it occurred to anyone to change the coding if you're stealing from monsters. Since my thief already had a fair amount of bad karma I didn't give it a thought. In fact the act of killing the monsters to get fresh spawn has put her into positive karma for the first time in months.

I'm actually finding it quite interesting, she's been through more karma/fame titles in the past few days than since I first created the char. Every time I log her on she's got a different one.

 

[Lord Drakelord]

Well it like that crazy timer they have when you steal from a crate in town, both I wish would go away and leave me be. I feel since they are monsters that there should be NO lost of karma when stealing from them.

 

[Maplestone]

Picking a few coins from lizard man's pocket: bad mojo!
Cutting its head off with intent to skin its hide: good job!

this doesn't entirely sit well with me.

(I have this urge to make a character who wanders the woods, stealing from ogres to give to peasants ... not a rewarding career, but the RP feel would be great)

 

[Quenchant]

(I have this urge to make a character who wanders the woods, stealing from ogres to give to peasants ... not a rewarding career, but the RP feel would be great)

Also, a good way to get back some of that Karma, depending on how low you get from all that Ogre stealing. That should add to the RP.


Q

 

[Maplestone]

curiously, despite all the "you lose a lot of karma" messages - the trainee I've taken out still hasn't dropped below "glorious" karma.

 

[Arch Magus]

Nice, didn't take long for the crate theeves to start complaining about something.

Stealing is a -karma act. You lose karma by using it, doesn't matter on who it is used.

Just like Poisoning, snooping, necromancy. Using them is bad for your karma.
It doesn't matter if you used Stealing or Necromancy to kill Satan, you're still going to lose karma trying it, lol.

 

[Dryke GL]

Nice, didn't take long for the crate theeves to start complaining about something.

Stealing is a -karma act. You lose karma by using it, doesn't matter on who it is used.

Just like Poisoning, snooping, necromancy. Using them is bad for your karma.
It doesn't matter if you used Stealing or Necromancy to kill Satan, you're still going to lose karma trying it, lol.

...Which completely ignores the point of the thread. We are all aware that stealing is currently a -karma act regardless of the target. The direction this thread is heading in is to suggest that it should be changed. It hardly makes any sense at all to suggest that stealing something should result in a karma loss, whereas killing the creature instead and then taking something from them should result in a karma gain.

Please keep the 'crate thieves' comments in the forum where they belong with the rest of the PvP elitists.

 

[The Green Thief]

...Which completely ignores the point of the thread. We are all aware that stealing is currently a -karma act regardless of the target. The direction this thread is heading in is to suggest that it should be changed. It hardly makes any sense at all to suggest that stealing something should result in a karma loss, whereas killing the creature instead and then taking something from them should result in a karma gain.

Please keep the 'crate thieves' comments in the forum where they belong with the rest of the PvP elitists.

Why not just accept that you lose karma for stealing and play the game? I never once heard a mage complain because summoning a daemon lowers karma. There are reasons for things according to lore and you just have to accept that.

 

[DaveSP!]

Its easy, killing a monster is an act of bravery, and therefore a good thing, hence karma gain.

However stealing from something so mindless is an obvious act of cowardice and therefore a bad thing hence karma loss

 

[DaveSP!]

also, jesus f*****g christ what the hell does it matter anyway, it has absolutely zero beaing on the game!

 

[The Green Thief]

Exactly my thoughts. Since when has stealing ever been looked upon as an honorable act?

 

[Dryke GL]

Why not just accept that you lose karma for stealing and play the game?

Why accept something that doesn't make any sense when it is possible to offer feedback and ask for it to be changed? Either way, the 'play the game' comment is misplaced here - it's not as if I am threatening to take all my marbles and go home or anything. I am certainly not introducing that level of drama here; you shouldn't imply that I am.

I never once heard a mage complain because summoning a daemon lowers karma. There are reasons for things according to lore and you just have to accept that.

Not a valid analogy, Green Thief; the UO 'lore' clearly supports the idea that the summoning of Daemons to Sosaria is considered evil, whereas there really isn't a 'lore' that supports the idea that stealing from an enemy of the realm is evil. After all, you're encouraged to stick something sharp into that same enemy, or perhaps immolate it in a pillar of fire; I can't see where there is a significant moral advantage to 'killing it and looting the corpse' as opposed to skipping the whole 'killing' part.

In essence, there's no reason to 'just accept it' when the evidence seems to suggest this is happening by default (as in no one bothered to consider this change when they implemented this change) as opposed to it happening because there was some philosophical decision made regarding the overall morality of stealing from evil monsters.

Exactly my thoughts. Since when has stealing ever been looked upon as an honorable act?

Robin Hood, in fantasy; that strikes me as a fairly significant tale of heroism in theft. Beyond that, there are quite a few fantasy stories where 'stealing from the bad guy' is considered at least 'karma neutral', if not somewhat heroic. Consider Bilbo's theft of the 'One Ring', or his 'burgling' from Smaug. I do believe 'The Punisher' is not above the theft of things from 'the bad guys' that he puts to some 'better' use as well.

In real life, there are several examples where people were tasked with the theft of items or secrets in wartime, or against peacetime enemies as defined by the country they serve; there are also several cases where undercover law enforcement agents participate in minor crimes - including theft - in order to further an investigation.

In any event, any moral code that rewards you for killing some creature certainly offers no justification for penalizing you if you merely steal from that same creature. Hopefully you are not seriously trying to support the argument that killing is somehow better for one's Karma than stealing.

Its easy, killing a monster is an act of bravery, and therefore a good thing, hence karma gain.

However stealing from something so mindless is an obvious act of cowardice and therefore a bad thing hence karma loss

Wow, Dave; this post is rather interesting. When you say mindless, are you referring to the fact that the subject of the theft is essentially an A.I. construct - or are you instead talking about the morality of stealing from a 'mindless' creature (such as, say, a spider)? In either event, I would again draw your attention to the obvious flaw in your logic: If the 'mindlessness' of the target determines the morality of your actions against it, how then is killing it any better? Why, then, are you rewarded for killing it?

also, (deleted) what (deleted) does it matter anyway, it has absolutely zero beaing on the game!

Dave needs to relax.

 

[Arch Magus]

Its easy, killing a monster is an act of bravery, and therefore a good thing, hence karma gain.

However stealing from something so mindless is an obvious act of cowardice and therefore a bad thing hence karma loss

I'm going with this explanation.

 

[Arch Magus]

Why accept something that doesn't make any sense when it is possible to offer feedback and ask for it to be changed? Either way, the 'play the game' comment is misplaced here - it's not as if I am threatening to take all my marbles and go home or anything. I am certainly not introducing that level of drama here; you shouldn't imply that I am.



Not a valid analogy, Green Thief; the UO 'lore' clearly supports the idea that the summoning of Daemons to Sosaria is considered evil, whereas there really isn't a 'lore' that supports the idea that stealing from an enemy of the realm is evil. After all, you're encouraged to stick something sharp into that same enemy, or perhaps immolate it in a pillar of fire; I can't see where there is a significant moral advantage to 'killing it and looting the corpse' as opposed to skipping the whole 'killing' part.

In essence, there's no reason to 'just accept it' when the evidence seems to suggest this is happening by default (as in no one bothered to consider this change when they implemented this change) as opposed to it happening because there was some philosophical decision made regarding the overall morality of stealing from evil monsters.



Robin Hood, in fantasy; that strikes me as a fairly significant tale of heroism in theft. Beyond that, there are quite a few fantasy stories where 'stealing from the bad guy' is considered at least 'karma neutral', if not somewhat heroic. Consider Bilbo's theft of the 'One Ring', or his 'burgling' from Smaug. I do believe 'The Punisher' is not above the theft of things from 'the bad guys' that he puts to some 'better' use as well.

In real life, there are several examples where people were tasked with the theft of items or secrets in wartime, or against peacetime enemies as defined by the country they serve; there are also several cases where undercover law enforcement agents participate in minor crimes - including theft - in order to further an investigation.

In any event, any moral code that rewards you for killing some creature certainly offers no justification for penalizing you if you merely steal from that same creature. Hopefully you are not seriously trying to support the argument that killing is somehow better for one's Karma than stealing.



Wow, Dave; this post is rather interesting. When you say mindless, are you referring to the fact that the subject of the theft is essentially an A.I. construct - or are you instead talking about the morality of stealing from a 'mindless' creature (such as, say, a spider)? In either event, I would again draw your attention to the obvious flaw in your logic: If the 'mindlessness' of the target determines the morality of your actions against it, how then is killing it any better? Why, then, are you rewarded for killing it?



Dave needs to relax.

Thought I'd let you know, I didn't read this.
I'm going to assume it's a rant.

Stealing is a dishonorable act, and I accept it.
Garbage man thieves should too.

 

[Dryke GL]

Thought I'd let you know, I didn't read this.
I'm going to assume it's a rant.

Stealing is a dishonorable act, and I accept it.
Garbage man thieves should too.

It's pretty easy to dismiss something as a rant when you haven't read it - and I'd like to think the tone is reasonable as opposed to ranting. But hey, everyone has an opinion

You may, having read it, disagree with me; you may even decide not to read it because it appears too 'wordy' (a point I could hardly argue)...but calling it a rant is a bit of a stretch, I think

 

[Arch Magus]

It's pretty easy to dismiss something as a rant when you haven't read it - and I'd like to think the tone is reasonable as opposed to ranting. But hey, everyone has an opinion

You may, having read it, disagree with me; you may even decide not to read it because it appears too 'wordy' (a point I could hardly argue)...but calling it a rant is a bit of a stretch, I think

Fair enough.

 

[Petra Fyde]

Its easy, killing a monster is an act of bravery, and therefore a good thing, hence karma gain.

However stealing from something so mindless is an obvious act of cowardice and therefore a bad thing hence karma loss

I can relate to this explanation.

and, be truthful here, is it really worth the time it would take to code a change? It's a 'swings and roundabouts' situation, what you lose for the steal you get back for the kill - unless you're killing them with necro spells.

To me it's too minor to warrant the work it would take to change it. There are far more vital things that need time spent on them. UO doesn't have infinite resources in either cash or manpower.

 

[DaveSP!]

Wow, Dave; this post is rather interesting. When you say mindless, are you referring to the fact that the subject of the theft is essentially an A.I. construct - or are you instead talking about the morality of stealing from a 'mindless' creature (such as, say, a spider)? In either event, I would again draw your attention to the obvious flaw in your logic: If the 'mindlessness' of the target determines the morality of your actions against it, how then is killing it any better? Why, then, are you rewarded for killing it?

I meant more in the sense of the AI (it was a sly jab) but in the other sense its still logical to get karma for killing something, just because a creature is very stupid doesnt mean it cant still hurt people, your making the world safer for others by killing it

 

[The Green Thief]

Why accept something that doesn't make any sense when it is possible to offer feedback and ask for it to be changed? Either way, the 'play the game' comment is misplaced here - it's not as if I am threatening to take all my marbles and go home or anything. I am certainly not introducing that level of drama here; you shouldn't imply that I am.



Not a valid analogy, Green Thief; the UO 'lore' clearly supports the idea that the summoning of Daemons to Sosaria is considered evil, whereas there really isn't a 'lore' that supports the idea that stealing from an enemy of the realm is evil. After all, you're encouraged to stick something sharp into that same enemy, or perhaps immolate it in a pillar of fire; I can't see where there is a significant moral advantage to 'killing it and looting the corpse' as opposed to skipping the whole 'killing' part.

In essence, there's no reason to 'just accept it' when the evidence seems to suggest this is happening by default (as in no one bothered to consider this change when they implemented this change) as opposed to it happening because there was some philosophical decision made regarding the overall morality of stealing from evil monsters.



Robin Hood, in fantasy; that strikes me as a fairly significant tale of heroism in theft. Beyond that, there are quite a few fantasy stories where 'stealing from the bad guy' is considered at least 'karma neutral', if not somewhat heroic. Consider Bilbo's theft of the 'One Ring', or his 'burgling' from Smaug. I do believe 'The Punisher' is not above the theft of things from 'the bad guys' that he puts to some 'better' use as well.

In real life, there are several examples where people were tasked with the theft of items or secrets in wartime, or against peacetime enemies as defined by the country they serve; there are also several cases where undercover law enforcement agents participate in minor crimes - including theft - in order to further an investigation.

In any event, any moral code that rewards you for killing some creature certainly offers no justification for penalizing you if you merely steal from that same creature. Hopefully you are not seriously trying to support the argument that killing is somehow better for one's Karma than stealing.



Wow, Dave; this post is rather interesting. When you say mindless, are you referring to the fact that the subject of the theft is essentially an A.I. construct - or are you instead talking about the morality of stealing from a 'mindless' creature (such as, say, a spider)? In either event, I would again draw your attention to the obvious flaw in your logic: If the 'mindlessness' of the target determines the morality of your actions against it, how then is killing it any better? Why, then, are you rewarded for killing it?



Dave needs to relax.

Sigh...

Basically it comes down to this: Are you willing to acquire the item honorably by slaying the creature and helping the realm, or are you willing to steal the item and only help yourself?

Killing the creature is a selfless act, which is supported by the Virtues.

Stealing what you want while leaving the creature to waylay another traveler is a very selfish act, not supported by the Virtues.

Killing: + to Karma
Stealing: - to Karma

Besides, when should a thief really care how the world looks upon him?

 

[RichDC]

Besides, when should a thief really be seen by the world whom looks upon him?

Thats better

 

[The Green Thief]

Thats better

I like your style hehe.

 

[Dryke GL]

Sigh...

Basically it comes down to this: Are you willing to acquire the item honorably by slaying the creature and helping the realm, or are you willing to steal the item and only help yourself?

Killing the creature is a selfless act, which is supported by the Virtues.

Stealing what you want while leaving the creature to waylay another traveler is a very selfish act, not supported by the Virtues.

Killing: + to Karma
Stealing: - to Karma

Besides, when should a thief really care how the world looks upon him?

This is a much stronger argument.

The only issue I would raise in response would be to point out that the only way to get the new consumables is to steal them. So, if we're going to 'roleplay' the virtue/morality issue, the only way for me to help the realm by providing these otherwise unobtainable resources is to take a karma hit to do so. (For the record, I've only been out collecting them once so far - but I did share them freely with guildies.)

Still, I have to admit you make a very strong point here. I still think there is justification for removing the karma loss - but I can also at least accept the logic behind leaving it as is.

 

[Maplestone]

That is a nice argument in favour of karma loss.

The character concept I had in mind was someone hired by villagers to sneaks into the lairs of monsters in order to recover items lost to invaders, things too fragile to survive the crash and tumble of a battle ... making the character more of a burgler in the style of Tolkien's Bilbo rather than a criminal or outlaw.

But if a pacfist honest thief is not an option, I'll continue to do the daemon-hunter who moonlights as a burgler as his act of humility.

 

[The Green Thief]

This is a much stronger argument.

The only issue I would raise in response would be to point out that the only way to get the new consumables is to steal them. So, if we're going to 'roleplay' the virtue/morality issue, the only way for me to help the realm by providing these otherwise unobtainable resources is to take a karma hit to do so. (For the record, I've only been out collecting them once so far - but I did share them freely with guildies.)

Still, I have to admit you make a very strong point here. I still think there is justification for removing the karma loss - but I can also at least accept the logic behind leaving it as is.

I also agree that the drops that are only acquirable by stealing should be there if you choose to kill the monsters as well.

But of course that will never come to pass as the developers won't want to take away the 'bone' they have tossed thieves, lol.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Offhand I'd say no they shouldn't.

Though of course you might lose plenty of it stealing from a pack horse to train up the skill.

-Galen's player

 

[Robthemilt]

"They're going to hate us no matter what we steal...So why does it matter?" Shinobi.
I really do like this quote.

If your going to RP it so your stealing for the cause of good, then take the Karma hit and consider it a sacrifice for the greater good.

Removing the Karma hit would make it way to easy to sit in lord oaks for hours on end by yourself. This way you either need to go earn more karma or you need to party someone whos killing stuff. Either way it requires more of an investment of time and effort than if you could just sit there for hours without a reason to leave, or threat of being killed.


I am personally glad that they put this forum up, and i will contribute if no one beats me to it. But the fact that the longest thread on here is a debate on "why am i losing karma to steal" is a little... ********, redundant, pathetic, whiny, some blend of those that fits in one word.