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(Question) (RP Question) Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

Scarst

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Flutter in RP, I like where this is heading whips and dominatrix styled interogation.
 

Aedon Durreah

Village of Aegis
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Your Babble Thread is that-a-way. ------>

The topic here is RBG Restructure.
Restructure? It should have dynamite placed under it and blown to bits. (my constructive idea for the day)

This thread started as a question on restructuring the RBG, it has long since gone defunct. So is a little flirtation all that can possible revive it?


discussion
 

outcry

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

I will add a kind of a side note that I have noticed in other threads relating to "this town belongs to this guild" idea. Many times I have rode through Trinsic,Skara and other towns that have been claimed by RP guilds. Even in prime time they stand empty except for the occasional player running to the bank and of course the npc's. People saying "My guild has laid claim to this town for many years now,so you must respect it."

To me this is like a child that has a ball over in the corner of her playroom. She shows no interest in the ball at all unless another child comes into the room and picks up the ball. Instantly she will start wailing and screaming "Mine mine mine!!!"

I know this is off of what the OP and others are talking about but it is something that has bothered me with guild claims to certain towns.People have expected other to "respect their turf" all the while the "turf" sits empty and unused RP wise or for anything else.
You know I would certainly agree with this 100%. I am glad someone said something. The only PGoH I ever see in game, actively is Rotep and even he complains about PGoH not being active. Their GM plays WoW and keeps a plethera of accounts open for just housing, never passed the stone to anyone, never cleaned up their rosters. I definately see Aedon and I believe there are no KoY left, but I do not see much of the others in the Yew area.

None the less, if they tell me they own Trinsic or Yew or whatever, fine. Give me the story. I want THAT STORY!!! I want everyone's story... But there are many people that DO NOT KNOW that and folks do not make it easy for them to get that story. Some are long and gone and others are too proud, too stubborn, too disappointed, or too unreachable to share that story with the newer players. Be more open minded. AND if you want to lay a claim to an NPC city --- remember that 1) EA owns that city so they can do whatever they want with it (hell they own you town too, your house, your account, read the ToS), and 2) do something with it!!! I'd like to see more RP events (hopefully without the need to constantly spawn mobs) in the CITIES that you all hold sooo near and dear.
Here is a link to the Pgoh Boards which holds all the history of this great guild
http://www.thehonorempire.net/

PGOH is the oldest guild on this shard along with GOL (although GOL is mostly inactive now)
 

Aedon Durreah

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We have no dynamite ingame. Ignoring RBG should work for you; otherwise RP an adversary. The latter is more creative and challenging.
Ignoring them is quite easy. But I also like posting here on the public forums,.
 

Flutter

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Ignoring them is quite easy. But I also like posting here on the public forums,.
We love that you post here Aedon.
Now about my recruitment into Aegis....
If I follow every attack with "You wilt regret thine actions swine!" does that count as roleplay? I could make a macro if necessary...
 

Aedon Durreah

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We love that you post here Aedon.
Now about my recruitment into Aegis....
If I follow every attack with "You wilt regret thine actions swine!" does that count as roleplay? I could make a macro if necessary...

Hmm, sounds like RP to me.


And Belle, no insult was intended in the posts we have been making here. It was just a little levity introduced into what has become a time of great boredom. All that could have been said on the subject had been said, and in all truth, our teasing at least kept the subject on folks minds.
 

Scarst

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We love that you post here Aedon.
Now about my recruitment into Aegis....
If I follow every attack with "You wilt regret thine actions swine!" does that count as roleplay? I could make a macro if necessary...
No Flutter it does not you need to say something before so make a macro of "You have insulted my honor prepare to die" and use it right before every attack and the other line right after and your Aces.

Sidenote: I have never used the term Aces before this post.
 

Aedon Durreah

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No Flutter it does not you need to say something before so make a macro of "You have insulted my honor prepare to die" and use it right before every attack and the other line right after and your Aces.

Sidenote: I have never used the term Aces before this post.

Should a gadzooks and a forsooth be in there someplace as well?

Anyways, I will see the anon. Perhaps we might quaff a pint or two at the local pub.
 

Pandora_CoD

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

Here is a link to the Pgoh Boards which holds all the history of this great guild
The Honor Empire - Online Gaming Community - MMORPGs

PGOH is the oldest guild on this shard along with GOL (although GOL is mostly inactive now)
Thank you sir. And I should note that CoD was created on the very first day of release of the Catskills shard... we existed on Atlantic for the few weeks after GAME release, but they announced the new servers, we picked Catskills right away and were there on day 1.

Now I could have kept my properties in Felucca (rather than gotten rid of them) and just paid for accounts that held onto those properties, but that action "active" does not make me. Even if we had a few people (and we did) that would from time to time play here, I couldn't call us "active". Active to me is PLAYING your characters on a consistant basis that impacts that shard in one way or another. I consider PGoH about as active as GOL. And if more of you do not "get in the game", I'll be calling you inactive too.
 

Scarst

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

Thank you sir. And I should note that CoD was created on the very first day of release of the Catskills shard... we existed on Atlantic for the few weeks after GAME release, but they announced the new servers, we picked Catskills right away and were there on day 1.

Now I could have kept my properties in Felucca (rather than gotten rid of them) and just paid for accounts that held onto those properties, but that action "active" does not make me. Even if we had a few people (and we did) that would from time to time play here, I couldn't call us "active". Active to me is PLAYING your characters on a consistant basis that impacts that shard in one way or another. I consider PGoH about as active as GOL. And if more of you do not "get in the game", I'll be calling you inactive too.
I'm pretty sure Outcry in a female. About 95%.
 

hawkeye_pike

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

JThese people have long existed and should be respected as such. PGoH are the royal guards of Trinsic, even if their guild name doesn't say "RBG" and they aren't allied to them. Same with Aegis and Yew.
Wench! Ye fergot UP and the ocean!
 

hawkeye_pike

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

Now I could have kept my properties in Felucca (rather than gotten rid of them) and just paid for accounts that held onto those properties, but that action "active" does not make me. Even if we had a few people (and we did) that would from time to time play here, I couldn't call us "active". Active to me is PLAYING your characters on a consistant basis that impacts that shard in one way or another. I consider PGoH about as active as GOL. And if more of you do not "get in the game", I'll be calling you inactive too.
While what you say is certainly correct, does it really matter? My interest lies in those guilds who want to do something TODAY, because that's what really matters. Old prior claims and privileges matter not to our crew. A guild may have been founded in 1952 or in 2010, who really cares? They may have a century of history which will result in a nice guild library, but it does not necessarily help the community TODAY. While a guild history is a great achievement, my respect goes to those guilds who are active and contribute something. Guilds like PGoH did so very much in the past, and it should not be forgotten. But today, let's just focus on active guilds. I personally consider the discussion about this issue void.

So, if anyone wants to claim the right to protect a town, why should they care about an old guild that currently is not active anyway? As long as it adds to guild interaction and RP fun on this shard, it is fine by me.

Unfortunately, the Alliance idea may not work. I too tried to establish an Alliance of "good" and "evil" guilds on Catskills a while ago, because it seemed the logcial thing to do, and it would have made guild communication and interaction much more easy. It miserably failed. Nobody wants to "subordinate" their guild under an alliance leader (even if it is just a technical thing), and nobody wants to give up their current guild war status (even if 95% of the warred guilds are inactive or don't exist anymore). That's a fact we have to accept.

P.S.: One thing I want to add: There's much discussion about territorial claims of RBG. While you seem to focus on territories, to my opinion it is much more important to focus on security. Isn't that your primary duty? Cities still are very much unsafe. Not that I as a pirate would complain about it... :)
 
C

CatLord

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

There's much discussion about territorial claims of RBG.
I never understood the point of such discussion... RBG can't rule any town.

People should fix their own guilds, find their "reason d'être" before giving tips about something that is working like a clock...




And Now for Something Completely Different


Slap The Man, Slap The Clock - Video
 

Aedon Durreah

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

While what you say is certainly correct, does it really matter? My interest lies in those guilds who want to do something TODAY, because that's what really matters. Old prior claims and privileges matter not to our crew. A guild may have been founded in 1952 or in 2010, who really cares? They may have a century of history which will result in a nice guild library, but it does not necessarily help the community TODAY. While a guild history is a great achievement, my respect goes to those guilds who are active and contribute something. Guilds like PGoH did so very much in the past, and it should not be forgotten. But today, let's just focus on active guilds. I personally consider the discussion about this issue void.

So, if anyone wants to claim the right to protect a town, why should they care about an old guild that currently is not active anyway? As long as it adds to guild interaction and RP fun on this shard, it is fine by me.

Unfortunately, the Alliance idea may not work. I too tried to establish an Alliance of "good" and "evil" guilds on Catskills a while ago, because it seemed the logcial thing to do, and it would have made guild communication and interaction much more easy. It miserably failed. Nobody wants to "subordinate" their guild under an alliance leader (even if it is just a technical thing), and nobody wants to give up their current guild war status (even if 95% of the warred guilds are inactive or don't exist anymore). That's a fact we have to accept.

P.S.: One thing I want to add: There's much discussion about territorial claims of RBG. While you seem to focus on territories, to my opinion it is much more important to focus on security. Isn't that your primary duty? Cities still are very much unsafe. Not that I as a pirate would complain about it... :)
And what is making these cities unsafe I ask you? It is the marauding, farty pirates!

Why just this past week I had my nostrils assaulted by one of the scalawags. And i have heard that they roam in packs from town to town, pillaging and passing gas.

The second biggest threat to the safety of the towns is of course bears. How much longer will the crown turn a blind eye to these furry fiends? It is not safe for a body to walk from one tavern to the next these days.The bears by the way are not farty.
 

Zurhet Pebblethief

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Everyone's panties are in a bunch, clear out the wedgies folks you will enjoy the game more!

I think less time needs to be spent telling folks how wonderful you and your ideas are; and more enjoying your time in game. Seriously there are even folks propagandizing their guilds and leaders to random players at the banks...

If you have something to contribute to the shard do it, but stop pointing out other peoples flaws it only makes you look like a jerk.
 

outcry

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

Here is a link to the Pgoh Boards which holds all the history of this great guild
The Honor Empire - Online Gaming Community - MMORPGs

PGOH is the oldest guild on this shard along with GOL (although GOL is mostly inactive now)
Thank you sir. And I should note that CoD was created on the very first day of release of the Catskills shard... we existed on Atlantic for the few weeks after GAME release, but they announced the new servers, we picked Catskills right away and were there on day 1.

Now I could have kept my properties in Felucca (rather than gotten rid of them) and just paid for accounts that held onto those properties, but that action "active" does not make me. Even if we had a few people (and we did) that would from time to time play here, I couldn't call us "active". Active to me is PLAYING your characters on a consistant basis that impacts that shard in one way or another. I consider PGoH about as active as GOL. And if more of you do not "get in the game", I'll be calling you inactive too.
PGOH is very active , they just do not run in the same circle you do...I think they are just picky who they want to interact with and with very good reason ..
 
C

CatLord

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

Pandora meant RP active... not pvm/pvp active on different guilds...

(login dates in the ingame guild roster refute your sentence)
 

outcry

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

Thank you sir. And I should note that CoD was created on the very first day of release of the Catskills shard... we existed on Atlantic for the few weeks after GAME release, but they announced the new servers, we picked Catskills right away and were there on day 1.

Now I could have kept my properties in Felucca (rather than gotten rid of them) and just paid for accounts that held onto those properties, but that action "active" does not make me. Even if we had a few people (and we did) that would from time to time play here, I couldn't call us "active". Active to me is PLAYING your characters on a consistant basis that impacts that shard in one way or another. I consider PGoH about as active as GOL. And if more of you do not "get in the game", I'll be calling you inactive too.
I'm pretty sure Outcry in a female. About 95%.
You can make that 100% I had pictures posted that proved a lot of things , that was one...........
 

outcry

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

Pandora meant RP active... not pvm/pvp active.
PGOH has never done pvp action.... They are all pvm and roleplay ,..Once again I stress they are just picky who they choose to play with , and once again for good reason ..
 

Scarst

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

PGOH has never done pvp action.... They are all pvm and roleplay ,..Once again I stress they are just picky who they choose to play with , and once again for good reason ..
It's been a slow summer and when I say slow I mean slower than molasses In Janurary. In fairness she probably hasn't seen a PGoH tag except for mine because Rotep Is a crazy bar hopping mage. While Thom gets on and does BoD's and not much else since no other people seem to be on whenever she is.
And everyone else is pretty much "weee summer" so yeah PGoH is inactive this summer comparatively.
 

Flutter

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

It's been a slow summer and when I say slow I mean slower than molasses In Janurary. In fairness she probably hasn't seen a PGoH tag except for mine because Rotep Is a crazy bar hopping mage. While Thom gets on and does BoD's and not much else since no other people seem to be on whenever she is.
And everyone else is pretty much "weee summer" so yeah PGoH is inactive this summer comparatively.
Truth is you would rarely see them anyway. They are quiet, keep mostly to themselves (except for the occasional event or public harrower) and are relatively awesome people.
I speak to Katherine sporatically as we both move in different circles but I know PGoH is very much a part of Catskills to this day.

Also with today's ability to "pick your tag" it's hard to see who's with who anymore. (Not that it should matter)
 

Aedon Durreah

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Re: [RP Question] Royal Britannian Guard Restructure

Thank you sir. And I should note that CoD was created on the very first day of release of the Catskills shard... we existed on Atlantic for the few weeks after GAME release, but they announced the new servers, we picked Catskills right away and were there on day 1.

Now I could have kept my properties in Felucca (rather than gotten rid of them) and just paid for accounts that held onto those properties, but that action "active" does not make me. Even if we had a few people (and we did) that would from time to time play here, I couldn't call us "active". Active to me is PLAYING your characters on a consistant basis that impacts that shard in one way or another. I consider PGoH about as active as GOL. And if more of you do not "get in the game", I'll be calling you inactive too.
PGOH has had a presence on Catskills for a long time as stated. The fact that at this time fewer of them are playing then at others is NOT justification to label them inactive.

Many folks have things to do in the long summer months. There are family vacations and gatherings. For some players it is trying to get settled in new towns or in at a new campus. A game at this time is the last thing on their minds. Olympus still stands there awaiting the return of those now off on other campaigns.

For me, so long as the heart of a guild stands, the guild still stands. When KOY left, it was not just a few who departed with plans to return later in the year. The leaders left, the buildings of the Knights crumbled and fell. The Glade of Aegis survived only because a few of us, not current members of the Knights of Yew kept things alive. But the Guild, the Knight's Of Yew is forever gone. Their stone fell into the past with the Guild hall. The Knights of Yew are permanently inactive.

Right now, Aegis is as quiet as PGOH, but we do have members who log in to either hunt, or work in their houses. You will not see many of us traveling the streets of the various towns, but we are still there.

It is good when old players return. It is a blessing when they wish to help spur new interest in role playing, and help build interaction between those of us still remaining. But it is a great disservice to the community at large when in the midst of summer, during horrible economic times which have hindered many players I know from being able to reactivate their accounts, to have any of us declare a guild inactive simply because their players do not flock to in game events.
 

Thom

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Thank you Aedon, you made the point I was about to make. I haven't had much time to play much less look at forums lately, due to getting kids ready to go back to school and working 12-14 hour days and sickness, but hopefully that will be changing this week. I'd just like to add that although Borg may have the stone doesn't mean that the guild leader is inactive. Piper and I took over the role of co-gm's a while ago as the latest in a list of people gming the guild since Borg switched games. And I haven't forgot I was supposed to be talking to you Pandora... just kinda got busy. Sorry about that, i'll get with you shortly.
 

Farsight

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While yer at it, landlubber.

Get in touch with us as well.

We want to see people when patrolling Olympus!

(Yes, I still do daily patrols of Aegis Glade, Everthorne and Olympus. At least whenever I'm on. I also patrol New Haven and stick my head into Luna every once in a while)

And be healthy, and enjoy your time with the kids.
 

Pandora_CoD

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I think you are all missing the point here... no one is here to threaten other guild's HISTORY on the shard. We all have a pretty deep-rooted history here that should and WILL (at least from my end) be respected. I am not talking about random PvM events or "secret guild only" hunts or whatever... I am talking about contributions to the role playing community; visibly, publically.

Being "busy IRL" is something that is well understood and accepted here, I myself run my own business and it takes a lot of my time. Others folks have family and kids and summer vacations planned, that's all great and good. Its not what I am talking about. I still find time to play, and when I do, I write fiction or think of storylines that can involve the public, and yes even some that are just "CoD" events. But we're a role playing guild and to role play by ourselves would be dreary and unfun.

Believe me when I tell you that many people deem certain guilds here, including PGoH, to be non-practicing in that community, except for Rotep. Either its because they have old grudges they are not willing to let go of, or because they just do not have it in them anymore to keep contributing. Whatever that case may be, I am asking the leaders of PGoH to continue to be the guild that used to run soooo many things whenever their time allowed, the one I remember they were when I was doing my own thing here. If Borg is gone on to WoW, then someone should take the stone that actually wants to continue it. Find that passion and do it... don't just sit there and cry "we're active, we're the oldest guild, we're this or that". I remember PGoH sooooo fondly (as well as KoY and GoL), can't we ALL help each other to go back to that? If there are PGoH'ers willing to do so, we CAN and SHOULD all contribute to helping them.

Thom, please DO contact me! And Katherine and Outcry... you ladies (isn't it great that its almost all LADIES irl!) are the heart of the guild that remains, I invite you all to think of some plot, some story, anything and give us the ABSOLUTE pleasure to return to Olympus to either 1) help defend it, 2) help "destroy" it (or die trying lol) and/or 3) interact with the men and women in purple!!

I look forward to the day when Olympus is worth the visit, like it once was, and its not just a conglomerate of buildings. And be assured that even Pandora may stop by, of course... under masquerade (she is only a known vampire to those that she "comes out" to), best she can given her old age. Or a visit from the great Marius might be something to behold. Of course, no one would be brasher than Lestat, our brat prince. Famous, handsome, and a force of nature. All under the masquerade, but clearly DIFFERENT. Leaving questions, intrigue, and impressions (good or bad)! Great role play to ensue!
 

Flutter

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Thom, please DO contact me! And Katherine and Outcry... you ladies (isn't it great that its almost all LADIES irl!) are the heart of the guild that remains,
Outcry is mine and PGoH can't have her!
LOL They couldn't handle her anyway!


(I'm kidding, my people are "allowed" to be in any alternate guild they want)
 

Thom

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While yer at it, landlubber.

Get in touch with us as well.

We want to see people when patrolling Olympus!

(Yes, I still do daily patrols of Aegis Glade, Everthorne and Olympus. At least whenever I'm on. I also patrol New Haven and stick my head into Luna every once in a while)

And be healthy, and enjoy your time with the kids.
Aye Aye Capt...um... sure thing. You know I always have time for you, just drop a line if I don't first. :p
 

Aedon Durreah

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While yer at it, landlubber.

Get in touch with us as well.

We want to see people when patrolling Olympus!

(Yes, I still do daily patrols of Aegis Glade, Everthorne and Olympus. At least whenever I'm on. I also patrol New Haven and stick my head into Luna every once in a while)

And be healthy, and enjoy your time with the kids.

I think as summer ends a few more of us will have time to be in game a bit. Life has a way of digging into play time far too much these days.
 

Aedon Durreah

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Pandora, I do not at all think you are out to destroy the history of any of the old guilds. But I do become concerned when any guild leader declares another guild inactive simply because they do not see them running around Umbra, or attending functions.

And even those great guilds who are now inactive, such as Arcane Steel and KoY should not, nor do I think they ever will be forgotten for their contributions to the RP of Catskills.

I have seen little in the way of the large plots currently being run which intrigues me enough to take part in or write about. I enjoyed the part of your recent event in Umbra up until the time that the inevitable mob spawn happened. up until the disruption it was a well planned event.

My RP tends to be smaller in scope. I do not seek out huge crowds of people to take part in them. Just those within the RP community showing a real interest. In all truth not since the Charnadis plot some years back has anything captured my interest enough to move me to become more involved.

I respect, and appreciate the actions of those who are trying to build their RP on the shard. Without Roleplay Cats is just another shard. It is in our stories that I believe we have made our marks on UO, and I hope that long after the older generation of RPers pass into legend, that catskills RP lives on strong.
 

Pandora_CoD

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Pandora, I do not at all think you are out to destroy the history of any of the old guilds. But I do become concerned when any guild leader declares another guild inactive simply because they do not see them running around Umbra, or attending functions.

And even those great guilds who are now inactive, such as Arcane Steel and KoY should not, nor do I think they ever will be forgotten for their contributions to the RP of Catskills.

I have seen little in the way of the large plots currently being run which intrigues me enough to take part in or write about. I enjoyed the part of your recent event in Umbra up until the time that the inevitable mob spawn happened. up until the disruption it was a well planned event.

My RP tends to be smaller in scope. I do not seek out huge crowds of people to take part in them. Just those within the RP community showing a real interest. In all truth not since the Charnadis plot some years back has anything captured my interest enough to move me to become more involved.

I respect, and appreciate the actions of those who are trying to build their RP on the shard. Without Roleplay Cats is just another shard. It is in our stories that I believe we have made our marks on UO, and I hope that long after the older generation of RPers pass into legend, that catskills RP lives on strong.
Aedon --- to address your first point, I never said a guild was inactive because they did not "attend events, or roam Umbra", did I? No. I said a guild is inactive when many, many people (not just me) call them so and because they no longer have it in them to participate with the community as a whole. Their history and legend is just that, history and legend, it doesn't automatically give you a pass to be part of the community. Let's face it, the "RP community of Catskills" is and should include anyone that can directly affect it. If you choose not to do that, then you aren't part of that community. So quit including yourselves in the discussions of the community... for you do not contribute to it directly.

Secondly, if no one knows of your stories and ideas and plots, HOW my dear Aedon is anyone to show real interest? I think that's exclusionary of folks that may or may not be interested, and I don't think that's participating in the community. That's just self-RP.

Thirdly, how is ANYONE to create new RP on this shard if certain guilds are so damn interested in protecting their "status" or thier "heritage" that they shun any new ideas or themes?

Lastly, as I have ALWAYS maintained, folks should be respectful of other's stories, plots, characters, and especially mindful of using their player-ran cities/towns/establishments without their expressed permission and knowledge. Its bit me in the arse once or twice and won't again. If I were you, I would be very pissed that my town was included in an event, driven by EM's and other players, and I did not know about it happening. So I give you that, as I have before.
 

Aedon Durreah

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As to my plots and who knows, those I am interested in interacting with know of the plots. I do not as a general rule publicize them on the general forums.

And dear, many may have called PGoH inactive, but only you chose to voice it on the forums. I do not think you are doing so to be demeaning in any way. But it is still something one should think long and hard on before doing.

You have written time and time again that you would like to see more interaction between the various RP guilds. Well sweetie, any time you put in print your opinion of the state of this or that guild, you are cutting off communication, not opening dialog.

You have been doing some wonderful things with your RP. My suggestion is that you continue on with that, and in time those wishing to join in with you will do so. And remember also the long history of a general slow down in activity during the summer months.
 

Flutter

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Pandora, I do not at all think you are out to destroy the history of any of the old guilds. But I do become concerned when any guild leader declares another guild inactive simply because they do not see them running around Umbra, or attending functions.
This.
People aren't inactive because they aren't doing what youwant them to do or participating with you. Maybe they just aren't interested in your style. And that is okay.
 
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Corvak

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Got to agree with that :)

Also a lot of inactivity is because UO is quieter in summer. (its like the reverse of all the other MMOs I play!)
 

Flutter

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Also a lot of inactivity is because UO is quieter in summer. (its like the reverse of all the other MMOs I play!)
*nods*
I have my summer people and my winter people really. Around Fall they kind of collide so it looks like I've got a Zerg, but then things quickly taper off again as people get settled in their real lives.
 
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Corvak

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Fall is always total chaos, it seems.

Anyway, the result of the restructure:

- Non-faction RBG guilds have been formed. (Umbra, Serpent's Hold, and Yew)
- More are welcome, I look forward to the RP.
- The RBG tag remains in factions. No longer "the" RBG, but "an" RBG. It contains four regiments.
- There is no off-shard requirement, and recruiting depends on the regiment you want to join. (Regardless of how much some of us want there to be one.....crazy meer.)
 
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