Reward statues?

[Aryala]

The idea came up when brooding about the question on how to raise activity within a given city (in this case, Trinsic on Europa). As it is, governors do not have much to offer in terms of rewards for active citizens. My own experience is that the custom titles are not very much sought after. This is understandable when you see how guild membership already allows for a custom title, in addition to all those gazillion titles and terms offered by normal gameplay.

If not a title and if not a reward in gold or items (which not all governors will have in abundance to give away), how then can we reward activity? Message board or website promotions are insubstantial within the game and also infinitely reproducible, so not exactly special.

The basic idea would be to bring the rewards into the towns themselves. For example a statue which can be 'carved' by the governor to display a citizen of the city. The mechanic would be a merger of the city title granting system (governor uses the stone to select a citizen) and the already existing statue makers (the stone turns a statue into the likeness of the selected citizen). An additional plus would be if the governor could set a plague describing the achievement of the citizen.

Statues could be in a place of honour, maybe with a bit of flowers or deco around. The idea would require some initial developer time, but would afterwards provide an easy, continuous way to reward and highlight citizen effort in the individual cities. It would also be easy to police and ensure that the system is not abused (which I would assume will not be a big problem with the governors) .

So... any ideas, feedback, criticism?

 

[azmodanb]

Can i hold a club ifo me.. So it looks like a .....

 

[Lady_Rachel]

Naughty boy. No you may not.

 

[Roland Of Gilead]

I think its a cool idea. Maybe they could put a timer on it so it reverts to a "faceless" statue or something after so long or at least at end of term? Would be cool to mouse over and it has a re-sculpt feature like the vet reward ones so u can change accordingly perhaps throughout you term? Or they could place a few around cities to be used in this way no more than 1 per week or something -cant make one of a player that already has been sculpted perhaps? So as not to have multiple statues around of same char. If they just placed a few around town for the govs to use as needed wouldn't need any staff support to use them after they are placed-which helps. Just like the title system if our EM or anyone see's any abuse of the system in any way they simply can take the same actions they would over inappropriate/misuse of the titles...yes its yet another thing for the uo police to keep an eye on but does give an easy way to reward our town folk for participating in whatever lil events an such we cook up without having to bother the EM. Like anything else they can simply remove someone from office if they are abusing the gov system in any way, which would be hard to do in this circumstance without it being very noticeable to players and likely reported.

 

[TandaBSK]

I agree it is a struggle to find a viable way to give a reward to players. We've used masonry and stone engraving, weapon engravers etc to make tangible displays for deco, but not all players want more trinkets to lock down. Gov. Titles poof when our term ends also, which I don't have a problem with, but some players already look a bit like billboards with all the titles above, below, before and after. I think perhaps a character statue maker with a governor only access menu might be nice, most cities should have a 4 x 4 ish pixel plot some where to display such near the bank I would think or the local tavern. (Seems, banks, Inns, Taverns [in Minoc's case we don't have an Inn] and stables get the most use/traffic)

I had also thought it would be neat to have a ribbon, perhaps sitting in the talisman slot, granted it would only be something for show. Or a slight modification of a Sash slot. So we could award 1st, 2nd and 3rd place ribbons or something. I've dabbled with some tailor names but it just doesn't work with the mechanics to do a "First Place Champion, King's Cup Tournament" for a crafter name. Any abbreviations I come up with just look silly.

We do post pictures, stories etc to our stratics shard page and to our own players site for our shard. It expands some of those who see the recognition, gives a little bit of notoriety. The question still remains of HOW to create enough buzz to get some excited about being part of it. Finally after hmm is this my 3rd or 4th term... been here since the start, we're finally starting to get some steady supporters and some events are seeing more than 2-3 people (beyond the role play community). It has been next to playing the auction house the most challenging part of my game experience yet.

 

[Jerec KTM]

Don't bother making suggestions or requesting anything. Is just a waste of time. Great Lakes has been running a year long tournament to fill the massive tournaments hole left by GL's EMs who have a complete lack of interest in that segment of the server population. They run great PvE (PvM) events, but they really could give a darn about PvP. I myself, voluntarily, tossed several million in donation to this tournament series they are running because it is something the server needs if it wants to keep from going the way of all the other smaller servers. From what I've been told, GL's govs went and asked if they could get a title of "2014 Cup Winner" (or some variation) granted to the winner (of what has been a free, open, and transparent process). The response they got was essentially "LOL LOL LOL LOL" from EMs and Devs.

So what has been learned? EMs and Devs could give a damn if you are trying to save the game for them. They'll collect their paycheck and play in their la-la-la land until someone turns out the lights. In the meantime, don't waste your brain cells trying to help them do their job and keep this game going.

 

[Aryala]

I understand that you are somewhat bitter after that. However, it was just the intention of the initial post to come up with something that would be relatively easy to implement and yet flexible enough to allow the governors a wide range of possibilities. If we do the math on how many cities on how many shards there are then it is obvious that not every individual request can be granted.

The statues though would be rather flexible. You could pick a city, cast the winner of your tournament into a statue and attach a description which explains the achievement. A similar idea would be a log book, where the governors could make short entries about events, achievements or players. The entries would remain saved in the system and could be read later by the citizens, thus generating a history of the town. Such systems would offer an in-game 'reward' and notoriety for pretty much every possible occasion, be it tournaments, plotlines, trading achievements or just to honour citizens that make an effort to generate content and events for others.

Maybe if governors throw together to create some relatively simple ideas then we can at the very least trigger a response from the developers *hint, hint, nudge*

 

[Jerec KTM]

I just hate being the debbie downer, but this isn't going to happen. If something as simple as having Mesanna log in and assign a title to someone is too much, this is never-ever-evah gonna happen. Worse, this would require coding.

When you have an idea, ask yourself one question: "Will this require coding"

If the answer is NO, then continue.

If the answer is YES, forget you ever had an idea.

 

[Kyronix]

We're pretty open to suggestions for this kind of thing, regardless of how much coding is involved IF there is obvious reward for the effort in the terms of usability.

There are quite a bit of customization options for naming various in game items with engraving tools. Ideas that can expand on that, particularly the ribbon idea, are along the lines of what can be done. A craftable ribbon that can have text engraved onto it, that fits into the talisman slot sounds like a grand idea.

 

[Jerec KTM]

You really think anyone believes that things are really open to suggestion? Governors did what you asked, they have been doing the events that are supposed to be part of the duty requirement. They make a simple request such as a title for a year long event that has cost them their own personal time and money, but that gets LOLd. Why was that such a crazy request? It's not like this hasn't been done on other servers. I see players on shards other than GL with "Olympic Winner" or equivalent. The only answer to take from the LOL'n at that request is that the dev team gives 2 poops about providing things players want, cause yes, in the ever constant e-p33n measuring contest that is PvP, a title proving you were the winner rather than some craptastic craftable that anyone could make and copy is the difference between people wanting to participate or growing bored and QUITTING THE GAME. Don't give me that crap about Govs being able to give titles, that isn't even a bandaid on the wound. All it takes is for that governor to lose and someone be elected who holds a personal grudge against the tourney winner and refuses to give them that title.

The playerbase asked the EMs and Devs for a simple reward that was not outrageous, one that couldn't even be sold for 100 billion gold, but ya shot it down, over probably nothing more than stupidity.

Quit pissing in our pockets and telling us its raining.

 

[Kyronix]

You really think anyone believes that things are really open to suggestion? Governors did what you asked, they have been doing the events that are supposed to be part of the duty requirement. They make a simple request such as a title for a year long event that has cost them their own personal time and money, but that gets LOLd. Why was that such a crazy request? It's not like this hasn't been done on other servers. I see players on shards other than GL with "Olympic Winner" or equivalent. The only answer to take from the LOL'n at that request is that the dev team gives 2 poops about providing things players want, cause yes, in the ever constant e-p33n measuring contest that is PvP, a title proving you were the winner rather than some craptastic craftable that anyone could make and copy is the difference between people wanting to participate or growing bored and QUITTING THE GAME. Don't give me that crap about Govs being able to give titles, that isn't even a bandaid on the wound. All it takes is for that governor to lose and someone be elected who holds a personal grudge against the tourney winner and refuses to give them that title.

The playerbase asked the EMs and Devs for a simple reward that was not outrageous, one that couldn't even be sold for 100 billion gold, but ya shot it down, over probably nothing more than stupidity.

Quit pissing in our pockets and telling us its raining.

When people are interested in having a respectful dialogue about what changes we can implement to make something better or expand the scope of a feature, we are eager to have that conversation.

As far as I am aware, a request was made for engraved titles on a players for winning the tournament you mention. So far as I know, Mesanna has only done this for EM events, and given that Governor's can already grant titles it seemed appropriate that the Governor organizing the event utilize that tool. The suggestion was passed on through the EMs and that was the last we heard of it.

Now, if you would like to have a conversation about how the Governor's titles are temporary and could be expanded to be more permanent that is one we can have, respectfully. The same goes for adding something unique so that craftable items can be used as governor/player generated rewards without fear of counterfeit. I think there are some good suggestions that other posters have proposed, particularly the ribbon idea. I look forward to the continued conversation.

 

[Jerec KTM]

When people are interested in having a respectful dialogue about what changes we can implement to make something better or expand the scope of a feature, we are eager to have that conversation.

As far as I am aware, a request was made for engraved titles on a players for winning the tournament you mention. So far as I know, Mesanna has only done this for EM events, and given that Governor's can already grant titles it seemed appropriate that the Governor organizing the event utilize that tool. The suggestion was passed on through the EMs and that was the last we heard of it.

Now, if you would like to have a conversation about how the Governor's titles are temporary and could be expanded to be more permanent that is one we can have, respectfully. The same goes for adding something unique so that craftable items can be used as governor/player generated rewards without fear of counterfeit. I think there are some good suggestions that other posters have proposed, particularly the ribbon idea. I look forward to the continued conversation.

Respectful? Man, you are talking to someone who used to be nothing but respectful. A farmer could have fertilized an entire farm from all the brown off my nose.

Why am I bitter now?

I am tired of doing the dev teams job of trying to keep people playing this game. I am tired of maintaining 31 accounts for what appears to be nothing. Thirty-one accounts. That puts me in the upper echelon of people paying for this game, maybe even the top 1%. If this were any other business, lets say a bank, and I sent an email looking for an answer or help, I'd get it fast as lightning. When someone griefs my events, there wouldn't be a thousand hour wait for a GM, much less the usual no-show GM and pro-forma robot email response about how they can't help with the issue. I don't spend over $4,000 a year on UO to get nothing for customer service.

Rather than make it easier for me to keep other people playing this game, it has only been made harder. I have to spend at least a hundred dollars a month on UO gold in order to put up a decent reward to get people to show at events. I gave the governor Jameison of Jhelom many millions for his naval drills where he takes people out to experience the High Seas (by the way, maybe someone should listen to his idea of putting a pirate turn in on the Jhelom docks rather than foolishly at the sea market, cause making people wait 30 minutes between action to sail back and forth for captures sooo makes them want to continue enjoying High Seas or playing this game). Governor Jameison of course advertises, here, other sites, and in game. When people show up, half of them leave when they find out it isn't an EM event because that means no drop they can sell for 500 million gold. The EM drops have made player events almost worthless because we can't provide them something unless we are throwing tons of gold at them, and even then that is not enough. That is how hard our job of keeping people playing this game has gotten.

So yes, I am bitter as hell that Tanda's request for an engraved title was LOL'd at. Yes, thats what suggesting governor titles is the solution is. Its a LOL. As I said, that can be yanked away the moment a different governor is in power. As for the future of permanent titles... All of the governors are involved, so it wouldn't be as big of a deal, but lets say Britain was hosting and the winning player is a Minoc citizen. What if the governor of Britain and Minoc are currently stuck in some sort of out of game grudge match? You think the gov of Minoc is going to do the gov of Britain a solid in that instance? Add, it would look goofy as heck to see "2014 King's Cup Winner of Minoc" when he/she was really the "2014 King's Cup Winner of ALL"

UO is a patient that is dying, we are the nurses that are trying to help you, but rather than start triage now and worry about cosmetics of the governors getting a title engraved on the winner of a year long event that has been open, fair, and transparent, the decision is being made to let the patient die. I don't know about other shards, but you have a very dedicated group of people that are governors on GL right now that are trying as hard as hell to get people of all play types to keep playing this game, but their simple requests are always turned down or the EMs wait until they can rp as Blackthorn granting the request while leaving us in the dark as to what they want, at which point it becomes useless. Example? GL's govs asked for a snowball machine last December for a massive snowball fight event. It got approved, but we didn't hear the strings attached to it until less than a week before the event. The strings? Do another event that includes everyone in that last-second-provided window. Guess what happened since there was no time to organize another event in that window... no snowball machine... instead, I'm stuck buying gold and shard transfer tokens to scour a couple of shards for as many of the piles of snow as I could and get them back to GL before the event.

So yeah, I am bitter. Maybe I am hoping you all will ban me so I can just walk away from this mess since I haven't been able to bring myself to quit cause I HAVE LOVED THIS GAME FOR 17 YEARS AND WANTED TO KEEP IT GOING.

 

[Aryala]

In a probably doomed attempt to return this discussion to the original ideas...

A ribbon is in itself a good idea, but it lacks visibility and impact. Paperdolls are full of stuff, all of it dyed, named, tagged and whatnot. Every active character can have a gazillion titles these days, with various options for having customized ones. Thus I was hoping that we could discuss things for the actual towns. Overall, it is often hard to attract people to a specific town, unless they happen to need something from a vendor. As a governor, I also find it very hard to have something like an impact on the town, since most of them (New Magincia excluded) do not have any features that are open to customization. To have a book recording important events, or the ability to carve a player statue, would both attract people to the towns and serve as a reward for participating citizens that is highly visible and not limited to someone accidentally checking the right paperdoll.

It might not even need development time. IF you were to define a fixed area in each town where EMs were allowed to lock down things asked for by the governors then it would be possible to have a small impact on the town, make it supervised (the EMs will know what is allowed) and developers would know which parts of the towns to watch out for when planning new content, since it would always be the same area. As a random example off the top of my head: a "walk of heroes" with several statues along the road of the park in Trinsic. So the idea would either work with some development (adding such options to the city stone) or by using the help of EMs.

 

[Dot_Warner]

This spun out quickly...

Uhm...

Where to begin...

I like the statue idea, as its a good way to recognize players in the towns. Who wouldn't like to see a statue of their character placed prominently with a plaque saying they're great! It doesn't impact anyone's playstyle and is purely cosmetic. Win-win.

The title system...

A few issues with the titles:
- They are limited to 20 characters, including spaces. This is very limiting.
- "of City" is always appended. This can make some titles very awkward.

Fixes: Allow "of City" to be optional, or alternatively allow "City's" as a prefix. Ex: You want the title to be Sherriff, so you can choose whether it said "Sherriff of Britain" or "Britain's Sherriff." This would at least allow a bit more flexibility.​

- WAY too many words are disallowed. Pretty much all profession titles and nearly anything having to do with a governmental office. This really limits our ability to use the titles for RP.

- I honestly see no legitimate reason to disallow professional titles. It would be nice to say someone was a merchant or the city blacksmith/chef/ranger/etc.
- Councilor needs to be allowed!​

- Numbers are disallowed. This renders the system useless for a tournament title.
- Both the governor and the person to be titled have to go to the town stone. While that may seem inconsequential, getting people to go places even marginally out of their way can be a chore

- I suggest making the title system a context menu option on the governor's character. This would make it easier to do titles on the fly.​

Another issue, though one that the devs can't control, is that very few people actually seem to even want a title. On GL, its hard to give them away. Many of us have tried and the offers have been met with apathy.


Now, down the rabbit hole...

I didn't expect the idea for an engraving for the King's Cup winner to go so...sideways.

I understand Jerec's frustration... I've had the "opportunity" to listen to it in great, agonizing detail.

The current title system is woefully inadequate for this particular use. To have this make any sense, the title should come from the winning character's governor...though, what it they don't participate in the loyalty system? Then, if we DID use the system, the title we'd want to use is completely disallowed.

"2014 King's Cup Winner"

Things wrong with it:
- 22 characters, 2 more then allowed
- 2014, numbers are disallowed
- King, this is a disallowed word

I can't think of how to reword it without a complete loss of context. Hence the request for an engraving...though I didn't know that Tanda had broached the topic until after the fact.

I understand Mesanna wants to keep engraving "special," but this would be one reward that has zero monetary or game-influencing issues associated with it. Perhaps have another governor title option for rewards that is longer and free of most restrictions? (bar swears and derogatory words)

Winners of the tournaments, the derby and the regatta all received an item (mainly statues) engraved with their name and the event. What they did with their reward is completely unknown, but I (probably naively) chose to imagine they kept them. Though I'm sure the fistfuls of gold were paid more attention.

I'm not sure how to comment regarding the disparity between EM event participation vs player event participation. Jerec is correct regarding the rares mill that EM events have become and how nothing that a player can provide, short of a cart full of checks, could even begin to compare. It is disheartening watching people leave when they realize there isn't a chance for a quarter-billion gold windfall. All I can suggest is that we need more tools to make city events more appealing, even if they aren't reward related.

The statues could be a good start, as they would be worth bragging rights, which might encourage more participation.

 

[Speranza]

Working within the known confines of the Governor System, why not build the reward yourself, hold a ceremony to award it, and invite an EM to the ceremony as the "Royal Games Commissioner" to lock it down on display in the city?

 

[Aryala]

Because as far as I am aware the amount of times a governor can ask for EM help is limited. We would 'waste' a chance to ask for a larger event or support request for this. Hence the initial idea to incorporate this into the city stone, so that it could be used continuously without using up resources. There might also be limitations for stuff to be locked down in the cities. We talked about something like that with an earlier EM (not our current one) and they indicated that individual shard-specific additions to the cities were somewhat frowned upon. Hence the suggestion to define an area in town where such things might be allowed.

But since Kyronix is apparently reading this discussion he is of course welcome to correct me

 

[Jerec KTM]

Working within the known confines of the Governor System, why not build the reward yourself, hold a ceremony to award it, and invite an EM to the ceremony as the "Royal Games Commissioner" to lock it down on display in the city?

Great Lakes has asked for such things to the point where we were told to just not ask for anything like that because it is not going to happen.

This is me anytime I think of asking for such help....

 

[Dot_Warner]

We talked about something like that with an earlier EM (not our current one) and they indicated that individual shard-specific additions to the cities were somewhat frowned upon.

This has been my impression as well.

To be perfectly frank, it is a policy failure of epic proportions. A massive, rather insulting epic fail.

This program should be actively supporting a shard's community, not shirking away from diversity and divergent histories. I know the "library" system for city improvements is "in the works," but I'm afraid this will just encourage a continued cookie cutter approach.

GL already gets a raw deal when it comes to decor as our EMs tend to do most of it in out of the way areas that are maybe seen a handful of times. Don't get me wrong, these areas have been very creative and fun, but most are gone now. The few that do remain are so remote or hidden as to be unlikely to be stumbled upon, which is sad. Additional decor in the cities, when there is any, is extremely short lived. When I visit other shards, I like to see the differences in character and flavor. When I return to GL, I'm saddened by the lack of easily noticeable differences and history.

When it comes to requests...ugh...the process takes WAY too long, and I don't honestly think that's the fault of the EMs. The turn around time on even hearing back is verging on the unacceptable. There is no reason to wait for one of the council sessions to learn if you've been denied or accepted, especially if an event or plot is now stalled while feet are dragged. While I can understand why requests are brought up at the meetings, though it's not as if Skara Brae should have any say about a request presented by New Magincia and vice versa. It has gotten to the point on GL that only one governor even bothers to regularly make requests. (Until this last term started, planning months in advance was silly)

There needs to be clear cut, fair rules drawn up by Mesanna, released to everyone. (No, the primer that came out isn't sufficient. In fact, the original doc is laced with wildly inappropriate sarcasm.) Each shard should have the exact same rules and opportunities, not be left subject to mercurial whims.

 

[TandaBSK]

Thanks for the nod Kryonix, I do like the ribbon idea, hence my suggesting it. Point taken, it isn't nearly as visible as a statue. Perhaps not as motivating as being memorialized in stone even if briefly. I tend to be a sentimental type, I'd rather have a ribbon I could keep as a memento for however long I stay in the game.

Other possibilities:
What if Governor's could craft via a context menu in their city stone? Or in their office? Either stone trade skills to your Governor to be able to craft OR craft the item and with a tool or container affixed to the Governor's elected status allows the item to be engraved or modified from standard GM or Legendary issue. Example: create a garment said container or tool would allow the Governor to hue the item in city colors (Minoc would be orange like the clean up points color a nice clear orange) and perhaps the item could be engraved beyond 20 characters and/or spaces to perhaps 25 or 30. Limit the use to 2x per 6 month term OR a maximum of I don't know this is a random number say 30 units or a combination of both. This would allow for use of tailored, carpentry, smithy, masonry, tinkered, blown glass or even cooked/baked goods.

Maybe a plaque or monument could be placed outside the Arena's since many tournaments are held there. Currently I think many of them show rankings of points earned in competition, but I don't believe one could display a title granted in it. Perhaps this could be incorporated into the Governor's offices in each city so we could post City Champions.

What about a tinker crafted trophy/cup? A larger version of a Goblet or something like that?

I think the Governor's titles are neat, I've only ever given out 1 repeatedly to my characters in game husband and 1 to another citizen who was agreeable. I rarely see anyone from my city that will stop and talk to me. They are very limited and it's frustrating, it is very difficult to do spur of the moment because so many words are forbidden. Could they be modified to allow say the King in King's cup to exist if in " quotes" or [brackets]? We don't wish to deceive anyone or give the appearance of being an in game either NPC or DEV or such. Could such titles have a full 6 month duration EVEN if it overlaps into another term??

I would agree some clear cut lines would be grand. Thus far I've had good luck with our Great Lakes group doing roleplay event type Governor's requests. Summits, working on treaties, trying to involve the community in such. Physical things not so much, and if they happen they're temporary in nature. The build for the Peace summit in Nujel'm was neat while it lasted, and I appreciate it, and given it was a tent it is completely appropriate it be taken down and packed up when no longer needed. Yew was granted to guards at game structures near-ish the roads into the city. I give many thanks to both Malachi and Elizabella, they've done a good job keeping me informed and trying to assist with my plans. I wouldn't have to be such a nervous Nellie or ask so many questions if I had more to go by. I understand too much random decor can create lag, can block use for other things etc. that this isn't about beautify Great Lakes it's about creating role play and events that bring participation and community.

I sent in my proposal for a cross or multiple shard festival to Mesanna as I was directed to at the meet and greet on Great Lakes. No word, no response to indicate it was received. No mailer demon indicating it wasn't. Limbo. I know things are nuts with the new publish, 17th anniversary, Halloween, Christmas is around the corner. I get it. We players who do this stuff, put in long hours behind the scenes, I've spent full time hours "playing" to host rares festival, to decorate and organize for Santa Claus, work on the Nujel'm Treaty, I enjoy the organizing, planning etc. It's just difficult to see so much of this Governor's thing be so unpredictable. I can put 80 hours into an MOA event, I know it's time frame, I know it's budget, I know who I can and can't count on for help, I know in the end it'll go off on schedule. The Governor's system is so much less predictable, you fear investing too much of yourself, putting in your request, planning an out IF the request is rejected, trying to plan for what ever other steps might be asked of you to complete the quest to get to point B... only to find that there is NO way to meet your planned, advertised date for hosting this.

Thanks Kryonix! I know you get the brunt of all this. I for one appreciate that you do answer us in a fairly timely manner. Even if the answer I get is NO, it's better than no answer or information at all. Give us a heads up on what you need to know from us, and what format works best to present it. Outline format? Political request idea, explanation, pros and cons, sum up with the pros again and the plea for the cause? Keep in mind NOT all of us are programming/computer Geeks.. even Geeks come in different classes.

 

[Kyronix]

Because as far as I am aware the amount of times a governor can ask for EM help is limited. We would 'waste' a chance to ask for a larger event or support request for this. Hence the initial idea to incorporate this into the city stone, so that it could be used continuously without using up resources. There might also be limitations for stuff to be locked down in the cities. We talked about something like that with an earlier EM (not our current one) and they indicated that individual shard-specific additions to the cities were somewhat frowned upon. Hence the suggestion to define an area in town where such things might be allowed.

But since Kyronix is apparently reading this discussion he is of course welcome to correct me

Since extending the terms out to six months, there are no hard caps on what you can ask for. Just remember to keep it in reason, and begin a dialogue with the crown. Have a plan and we can try to make something happen. Making shard specific changes is ok so long as a few things are kept in mind. For one thing, anything that is going to be consistent across multiple shards...say a dock in a major city...is going to to require world building, and that takes a publish. Specific stuff like we've done in the past...market areas in Trinsic, peace summit areas in Nujelm, and jails in Britain...all get added to our growing library so that at some point we can automate the process. That kind of stuff doesn't require a publish.

 

[Kyronix]

Thanks for the nod Kryonix, I do like the ribbon idea, hence my suggesting it. Point taken, it isn't nearly as visible as a statue. Perhaps not as motivating as being memorialized in stone even if briefly. I tend to be a sentimental type, I'd rather have a ribbon I could keep as a memento for however long I stay in the game.

Other possibilities:
What if Governor's could craft via a context menu in their city stone? Or in their office? Either stone trade skills to your Governor to be able to craft OR craft the item and with a tool or container affixed to the Governor's elected status allows the item to be engraved or modified from standard GM or Legendary issue. Example: create a garment said container or tool would allow the Governor to hue the item in city colors (Minoc would be orange like the clean up points color a nice clear orange) and perhaps the item could be engraved beyond 20 characters and/or spaces to perhaps 25 or 30. Limit the use to 2x per 6 month term OR a maximum of I don't know this is a random number say 30 units or a combination of both. This would allow for use of tailored, carpentry, smithy, masonry, tinkered, blown glass or even cooked/baked goods.

Maybe a plaque or monument could be placed outside the Arena's since many tournaments are held there. Currently I think many of them show rankings of points earned in competition, but I don't believe one could display a title granted in it. Perhaps this could be incorporated into the Governor's offices in each city so we could post City Champions.

What about a tinker crafted trophy/cup? A larger version of a Goblet or something like that?

I think the Governor's titles are neat, I've only ever given out 1 repeatedly to my characters in game husband and 1 to another citizen who was agreeable. I rarely see anyone from my city that will stop and talk to me. They are very limited and it's frustrating, it is very difficult to do spur of the moment because so many words are forbidden. Could they be modified to allow say the King in King's cup to exist if in " quotes" or [brackets]? We don't wish to deceive anyone or give the appearance of being an in game either NPC or DEV or such. Could such titles have a full 6 month duration EVEN if it overlaps into another term??

I would agree some clear cut lines would be grand. Thus far I've had good luck with our Great Lakes group doing roleplay event type Governor's requests. Summits, working on treaties, trying to involve the community in such. Physical things not so much, and if they happen they're temporary in nature. The build for the Peace summit in Nujel'm was neat while it lasted, and I appreciate it, and given it was a tent it is completely appropriate it be taken down and packed up when no longer needed. Yew was granted to guards at game structures near-ish the roads into the city. I give many thanks to both Malachi and Elizabella, they've done a good job keeping me informed and trying to assist with my plans. I wouldn't have to be such a nervous Nellie or ask so many questions if I had more to go by. I understand too much random decor can create lag, can block use for other things etc. that this isn't about beautify Great Lakes it's about creating role play and events that bring participation and community.

I sent in my proposal for a cross or multiple shard festival to Mesanna as I was directed to at the meet and greet on Great Lakes. No word, no response to indicate it was received. No mailer demon indicating it wasn't. Limbo. I know things are nuts with the new publish, 17th anniversary, Halloween, Christmas is around the corner. I get it. We players who do this stuff, put in long hours behind the scenes, I've spent full time hours "playing" to host rares festival, to decorate and organize for Santa Claus, work on the Nujel'm Treaty, I enjoy the organizing, planning etc. It's just difficult to see so much of this Governor's thing be so unpredictable. I can put 80 hours into an MOA event, I know it's time frame, I know it's budget, I know who I can and can't count on for help, I know in the end it'll go off on schedule. The Governor's system is so much less predictable, you fear investing too much of yourself, putting in your request, planning an out IF the request is rejected, trying to plan for what ever other steps might be asked of you to complete the quest to get to point B... only to find that there is NO way to meet your planned, advertised date for hosting this.

Thanks Kryonix! I know you get the brunt of all this. I for one appreciate that you do answer us in a fairly timely manner. Even if the answer I get is NO, it's better than no answer or information at all. Give us a heads up on what you need to know from us, and what format works best to present it. Outline format? Political request idea, explanation, pros and cons, sum up with the pros again and the plea for the cause? Keep in mind NOT all of us are programming/computer Geeks.. even Geeks come in different classes.

You are most welcome. I think titles are a really great reward to offer. I for one really liked being able to collect various titles for completing tasks in classics like Might & Magic that reflected my various accomplishments. One idea that has been mulling over is better leveraging the current title system to award titles that would be permanent and not require manual intervention. Basically you'd buy a deed from the city stone for say 100k that the governor would be able to add a title to. They could then present this deed and it would get added to your reward titles that are available through the title system. Just offering as a means of thinking out loud.

Something like this could be done with craftables like statues and the ribbons where the governor would be able to add a line to them that would make them unique.

Next time we get some governor system time on the schedule will definitely keep these suggestions in mind.

 

[Dot_Warner]

 

[Aryala]

Since extending the terms out to six months, there are no hard caps on what you can ask for. Just remember to keep it in reason, and begin a dialogue with the crown. Have a plan and we can try to make something happen. Making shard specific changes is ok so long as a few things are kept in mind. For one thing, anything that is going to be consistent across multiple shards...say a dock in a major city...is going to to require world building, and that takes a publish. Specific stuff like we've done in the past...market areas in Trinsic, peace summit areas in Nujelm, and jails in Britain...all get added to our growing library so that at some point we can automate the process. That kind of stuff doesn't require a publish.

Thank you very much for this clarification. I was previously under the impression that we were limited to as few as one request per term, with some grey area in between for smallish stuff. It is good to know that we can have more than this and this is very important for our planning.

For everybody grumbling: he said it, so refer to it when you make your requests. Unless someone higher up says different lets just assume this goes. Since its awesome. Don't spoil it

As for titles, I do like them as a general concept, but I also found (like others here) that few citizens seem to desire them. We even offered specific positions or titles that had to be earned and still had no response whatsoever to them. I would appreciate it if their functionality could be improved. The ideas Kyronix mentioned are good. And to clarify, the ribbon idea is also great, just not as visible. I would gladly have it in addition to other things though. Everything that helps governors generate interest in their towns will be good.

 

[Kyronix]

With regards to Governor requests and their limitations I'm going to quote myself from another thread...

"You wouldn't have to waste a request on the board if you really want one, just talk to your EM about it and they can pass along the request. We are happy to entertain requests so long as they don't get out of hand. It was just out of hand in the beginning and we were literally inundated with requests that were all over the place and weren't why we did this in the first place. If it's something meaningful that ties into the shard's events, we're pretty willing to add it to growing library of additions (Edit to add...of course there are restrictions on everything, and deco for the sake of deco isn't a prudent use of our time...). We've built the City of Trinsic's market square up almost a half dozen times now, and that's pretty neat."

This applies to requests for us to build something unique. Please remember we are willing to work with Governors but you have to keep a couple things in mind. For one thing, EMs have a limited amount of time, nobody is a full-time EM and a great many of them put in a lot more time then they are required to. They know best what resources they can devote to all of their duties.

Please also remember rewards are always a hot button issue. We all are well aware how popular collecting items is in game, and as a result it must be approached with great care. No matter how transparent an event is, no matter what measures are made to ensure that the event is fair and open to all - someone is going to cry afoul and insist there was some kind of indiscretion. This is the reason why it is very touchy for us to create something unique for a Governor lead event to be given to a player, and why we suggested using current in game methods to create rewards for winners of these events. If there are new features we can add to enhance existing systems, something that is automated and open to all who wish to use it - that is the conversation we need to have, and that is the conversation we've been having as evidenced by our already productive discussion on the idea of ribbons and city titles deeds and such.

I also want to share with you all an excerpt from a guide that was written on some of what the King's Council can accomplish...

"As time progresses and as [EM] events and scenarios dictate, Governors may petition the Crown for City improvements."

In the beginning this was chaos. We were literally inundated with requests for decorative additions to cities that had no back story other than the individual wanted them. A big part of the issue here was our not better defining the role of Governor and how requests would be handled and granted, and we're sorry for that. It was a result of this that the original restrictions of 1 request per term were put into place.

As time progressed we came up with the idea to start building a library of city additions that could be utilized in a future automated system by Governors across all shards. So far we've had a market square built in Trinsic, a Jail built on the outskirts of Britain, and have built peace summit areas in Nujelm. Once these areas are built, we have them saved and can reproduce them with a single button click. When I mentioned earlier there are no hard caps, this is what I was referring to. Once the initial request has been submitted and the requirements have been met, we can reproduce the structure whenever...as an example we build the Trinsic market almost every month to support a standing market event that's held in the area. So far this has been working out very well and we look forward to seeing what all creative endeavors we can embark upon in the future.

 

[Jerec KTM]

Please also remember rewards are always a hot button issue. We all are well aware how popular collecting items is in game, and as a result it must be approached with great care. No matter how transparent an event is, no matter what measures are made to ensure that the event is fair and open to all - someone is going to cry afoul and insist there was some kind of indiscretion. This is the reason why it is very touchy for us to create something unique for a Governor lead event to be given to a player, and why we suggested using current in game methods to create rewards for winners of these events. If there are new features we can add to enhance existing systems, something that is automated and open to all who wish to use it - that is the conversation we need to have, and that is the conversation we've been having as evidenced by our already productive discussion on the idea of ribbons and city titles deeds and such.

It isn't an item. It's a title. It's not something they can run out and xfer to Atlantic to sell for 500 million gold. This also isn't something that players want to hear "well we may add that in the future" when everyone knows it would take Mesanna five minutes to log on, do it, and be gone.

You all dropped the ball so bad you've lost one of your biggest cheerleaders. Probably because I don't post on Stratics everyday for the past 17 years or slap my name on everything like Pandora, so you really don't understand the seismic movement you guys have caused. An event this weekend to help search for the cause of the Cove plague just got canned because I am not throwing in the reward money.

I'm walking away from paying for other people to play this game.

​

 

[MalagAste]

*sighs* @Kyronix I hate to say this but anything other than the Guards I have requested which were completely RP related and have been sore subjects for Yew for years... have been DENIED. I gave up ages ago with any requests at all. Basically I'm told the EM's are not my decorators..... Yew will NOT have a Dock... I can't get a bridge to the far farm *EVen though I KNOW there is supposed to be one there or there was a ferry at some point like Skara Brae.... Heck I would even be happy with a teleporter from the one side to the other... DENIED. Requested to have some outdoor tables and chairs and a stair up on top of the Winery like I've seen on a few other shards... would be a lovely place to hold wine tastings for folk to bring their bottles of brew for some judging of best quality, most original named... or whatever.... something fun DENIED. So after all that I said you know what... I'm just not going to request anything anymore. Not worth going to the effort of putting a story together and coming up with an RP reasoning to do an event to be DENIED. Sick of it.

I'm happy with my 2 guards... who are most dedicated and devoted to seeing that the way in and out of Yew is "safer"... But good grief. Yew and Minoc should have a dock... Heck I have a Shipright(sp?) ..... Why do I have that if I don't have a dock??? There is plenty of room for one West of the Flour Mill.... Would be nice to be able to "RP" shipping our Flour to Britain and getting shipments of Wheat from Britain and Skara Brae.... VIA A DOCK!!!! Which I should have. So should Minoc. Silly that they don't. We are right on the sea shore. Why else would you build your town on the shore if not to have access to shipping?

I'm happy being Governor I love it... But pretty much it's extremely expensive to maintain the Trade Deals so 1 or 2 people might use them... I don't even hardly know if anyone cares anymore... Since the Beginning I've been Governor.. I've granted 3 whole titles..... 2 to the same guy. Who seems to be the only one who really cares about it. I was the Mayor of Yew for a great number of years before there was ever a Governor System... and Yew will be the place I care about until the shards close. It just ticks me off that I can't take pride in my City and request anything to beautify the place I love and enjoy and have lived since day 1 of my UO experience. I keep wondering WHAT is the POINT of the Governor System if not to improve and better your city and return life to it???

If the whole point is to pass on word of what is going on RP wise in the Cities... Well then we didn't need you or the Governor system for that all RP groups have had their own Councils and such for that for YEARS and quite honestly anyone who ever gave one fat cent already would know of them. I thought it was to bring new life to the Cities through being able to adapt them and upgrade them with additions that have long been need/wanted/desired by the citizens who love those Cities... at least that was the implication I gathered when the whole Governor system began.

 

[Kyronix]

@MalagAste - we're already going to build a dock in Yew & Minoc. That's one of those situations where world building is required and we have to publish it out.

 

[MalagAste]

Well it is one of those things that would be nice if you all could have let us know about. since the last I heard I was denied. But thank you for lettings me know. I very much appreciate it.

 

[Aryala]

As a small suggestion: maybe the communication betwen Devs and governors could be improved? For example, I am governor of Trinsic and I was not at all aware that a stamp for a Trinsic market exists and that I could potentially request to use it. In fact, I did not even know AT ALL that stamps could be suggested and used. Nor where I would begin doing so. How does that market even look? What else is there?

 

[Riyana]

I understand Jerec's frustration. There has been a LOT of respectful dialogue on the topic of the governors system, and a lot of great ideas tossed about, but it does often feel like we are hitting our heads against a wall. The extended terms were good. The money from titles and banners going into the stone was also good--but way, way too late. Everyone who wants either got them ages ago.

I'm not convinced on the trade quests either, especially since they seem to be another way to lure victims to Fel and seem like they are going to get really old really fast. Last I checked you couldn't pick your destination so you can't organize player caravans easily either. I feel like that quest was hinted at the governors here in this forum as something good for the system but it misses the mark just enough. I didn't go back to test after my initial frustrating push though so I'll just have to wait and see.

The one vote per shard change is an absolute joke.

The bulletin board change removed more functionality than it added.

The governor offices are inconveniently located and fairly useless. They also, in a couple cases, broke old shard history deco.

Also, it really and truly does seem like different EMs are running by different rules.

It's getting really hard to take seriously "we're listening" when the majority of accepted suggestions are altered to the point of uselessness or even hindrance. I'm almost scared to make suggestions anymore.

Jerec is also correct that its almost impossible to get wide participation without offering enormous rewards, which many governors can't afford (especially now that many of us have been footing that damn trade deal by ourselves for so long). From the very beginning, the whole system has felt like a gold sink --clumsily tacked onto what should and has the potential to be a wonderful RP system. The people putting the most effort into the governor system typically aren't the ones with mountains of gold needing to be sunk.

A player should not feel forced to spend real money to buy fake money from illegal third parties to get people to play with them. This isn't the first time I've heard of someone doing that to get people to participate in their events or pay for the trade deal. But that is what UO has come to. The TOS enforcement on the gold and item selling has been so slack for so long that it's the standard now. Shutting them down would probably shut down the game at this point. It's a huge underlying problem in just about every part of the game anymore but remains unaddressed and possibly unaddressable.

The majority of my game time these days goes into creating and running player events. At my events I give the best prizes I feel I can, but I'm not going to go broke in game or in real life trying to get people to play with me. I've engraved statues and artifacts and exceptionally crafted items as prizes in addition to giving out cash prizes. I've found my prizes on vendors the day after I gave them out. It's disheartening.

However, the unfortunate fact is that any unique, desirable ability given to governors for tangible rewards will be hijacked by people who don't care about governing but just want to profit from it and who will use their superior finances to game the elections. We've seen issues already with the trade deals. (I'd be perfectly content if the trade deals were divorced from the governor system altogether.) While part of me would like for governors to be able to make some kind of special reward, whether it be a "ribbon" talisman, a special sash or shirt or whatever... I can see it turning into a moneymaking tool for rares collectors and gold sellers and the roleplayers getting pushed out.

Sometimes I think this game is too far gone, descended too far into greed and pixel crack and third party RMTs, for the governor system to come anywhere near meeting its potential. The problems with the governor system are not unique to it--they are symptoms of a deeper problem.

So I vote no on governors being able to make special reward items. However...

More engraving options (available to EVERYONE) would certainly be welcome. I'd love to engrave a sash or a shirt, but I don't want that ability limited to governors for the reasons I described above. Some more statue options would be nice--I did a dog rescue event and really wanted to give out an engraved dog statue as a reward for example. All those little tracking icons can be used as statues if vet rewards and EM handouts are anything to go by--let's get a few more options. There are some wooden statues that are craftable as well but I believe they are not engravable--make them engravable!

Maybe make engraving have the option to work like crafters marks and include titles: for example, instead of "statue: Engraved: Winner of Vesper Fishing Contest" you could have "statue: Winner of Vesper Fishing Contest: Engraved by Governor Ivy of Vesper"--or if its not a governor you can still use titles so you could have "statue: Honorable Mention- Shrine of Sobriety Poetry Contest: Engraved by Ashlynn the Necromancer" or whatever. That would be pretty neat.

Another thing I think would be great is some kind of shareable/displayable achievement system like World of Warcraft has. It's nothing but bragging rights, but it gives people goals to work toward--and if governors could add special city ones (maybe one per term per character) all the better. We already have something like it with the titles, but you can only display so many of them--and the governor ones disappear each term. (Would be a great thing to tie into the dead arena system too, or VvV.)

Also, as for the city titles: on my shard (and I would imagine most shards), most of the people who come to my events are either governors or citizens of other cities. It would be nice if a governor of one city could somehow recognize a citizen of another--we just don't have enough players (and have too many possible permanent titles) for the temporary governor-appointed titles to be worthwhile.

The "citizen of the month" in-town statue idea from the OP is neat too. I would hope it would be better implemented than the governor offices and bulletin boards though... I would definitely want this to NOT be restricted to citizens of that city though. If a citizen of Trinsic wins my fishing contest in Vesper, I should be able to make the statue of them even though they aren't from Vesper, for example.

And for the love of the virtues let us lock down some items in our towns and limited town crier (or barkeep! that would be fine!) type ability. With a 24-48 hour timer is perfectly fine. I know the devs keep going on about grief concerns but there are a max of 9 governors on each shard--it really shouldn't be that hard to police. The offices we got are pretty much useless because they are just static buildings (and they are SO far from the city stones in some cases--they really should have been added as global publishes as an extra floor on the banks or something)--to do anything dynamic we still have to use our own buildings, and we may or may not be able to hold/get ones near our cities.

Aryala and MalagAste also make an EXCELLENT point about communication. We shouldn't have to comb through Stratics (which, let's not forget, is a THIRD PARTY site and not an official UO site) forums to find information about what is and isn't possible and permissible. Maybe when someone accepts a governorship a gump should pop up with some info and a book pop into their bag with even more info.

So... yeah. *issues a sigh of resigned defeat*

 

[Thom]

As a small suggestion: maybe the communication betwen Devs and governors could be improved? For example, I am governor of Trinsic and I was not at all aware that a stamp for a Trinsic market exists and that I could potentially request to use it. In fact, I did not even know AT ALL that stamps could be suggested and used. Nor where I would begin doing so. How does that market even look? What else is there?

I'm not sure what else there is, but I am the governor of Trinsic on Catskills and requested a market for Trinsic from the King at a council meeting. It took about 2 months to get the setup. I think that was mostly because a condition of the build was that we hold the market without it, and it's a monthly event. I think it turned out pretty nice. It has a week timer on it so we can use the square for other things when the market isn't scheduled, and EM Barnaby has been really good about getting it set up for us every month. I was actually in the area looking to see if it was set up one night and saw it pop in, which was pretty cool. This shot is from May and shows most of the area. All of the crafting areas are functional, but bring your own chair. If you'd like to see it in person we have the market scheduled this Saturday (9/20) starting at 7 pm eastern on Catskills. If you can't make the event then the build should be up for a week after that so you can check it out.

 

[Thom]

I'll admit sometimes I feel like i'm footing the bill to get others to play with me, but i'll have to disagree that you can't get participation without huge rewards. Of course large rewards help and I don't have tons of people at my events, but I get a decent showing and my prizes for almost everything are under a mil. It actually bothers me when some people go overboard on prizes, because then it feels like i'm expected to keep up with them. My main purpose in game these days is to provide events on Catskills. I've ran trade deal auctions, monthly fishing contests, a variety of hunts, and other things all out of my own pocket for over a year now. I do it because I enjoy it. That being said I stand firmly behind doing as much as possible myself. I wouldn't mind a ribbon/title, or the ability to make a statue in Trinsic as a reward. But I do want to avoid any kind of item that can be taken and sold off similar to the EM items. There's a reason I never applied to be an EM. I don't want a bunch of people yelling at me to shut up and hand out the prize, I want to run my event for those that enjoy them. And if that means I've got 8 people at my event instead of 20 because I don't hand out 50 mil in prizes then so be it.

 

[Aryala]

Oh... wow. That market is awesome. I'll have to ask if I can have that on my shard... Thank you very much for the picture and info!