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[Archery] Let's optimize this template...

Gb8719

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
I enjoy playing this archer but I feel like my skill allocation is not optimal. I use him for overall general playing and not for any specific purpose. I've never attempted a Peerless with him and I'm not even sure if there is a peerless that can be solo'd with an archer.

Please share some opinions on if there are ways to move points to make him a better all-around character.

Here are his skills:
Archery 100 [+20 with HH]
Tactics 100
Anatomy 100
Bushido 100
Chivalry 120
Resist Spells 90
Healing 90 [+10 with bandages]
He's also an Elf.

Here's some things that I've been considering that I could use input on.
  • Is my Bushido too high for an archer? The only ability that I use is Honoring. Is it worth lowering this to maybe 80? Or is there a significant advantage to bumping to 120 for a ranged character?
  • I really like running with 120 Chiv. I have to give kudos to Duncan Drake for sharing lost of information on how valuable this is. I don't run with 4/6 or with Protection and only utilize Close Wounds out of combat. Is it worth gearing for as close to 4/6 as possible and/or running Protection to use this in addition to bandages?
  • Resist is handy but I could do without it. The reason I haven't gotten rid of it is because I haven't found a suitable replacement. I'm missing the reduced mana cost of special moves by only having Bushido and Archery. Is it worth replacing Resist with fencing/swords and adding jewelry to reach 120 and getting the weapon discount? Couldn't I just use a Use Best Weapon if I need to whirlwind stuff?
  • I'm not a fan of Necro/SS. I understand how great leeching in Wraith form is but 1) it doesn't work well with high chiv and 2) I don't like being unmounted. And I understand that Vampiric Embrace isn't that useful for ranged either.
  • How applicable is SW to an archery template? I've noticed a handful of useful spells but since Mark of Death and Wildfire don't seem all that useful [mana too high], I might be able to get away with maybe 60. Any thoughts on this?
  • How useful is Ninjitsu? It looks like the only useful ability for a PvM archer would be mirror image. How useful is this ability with mitigating damage?

Thank you in advance for sharing your opi
 

CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
How useful is Ninjitsu? It looks like the only useful ability for a PvM archer would be mirror image.
Useless. You can't use MI when mounted.
It'd be useful in Wraith form but you don't like it.

How applicable is SW to an archery template?
I think it's useless for an archer. Even GoR with 6 focus is not so cool. I didn't used it during fights because of to large casting time. I used it to heal after fight or rare before entering a fight.

Is it worth replacing Resist with fencing/swords and adding jewelry to reach 120 and getting the weapon discount? Couldn't I just use a Use Best Weapon if I need to whirlwind stuff?
You need real skills for special moves. I'm not sure you ll be able to use WW without melee skills.
But you can have Swordsmanship + Archery. I name this "melee archer" and it's my favorable template:
Melee Archer

Is it worth gearing for as close to 4/6 as possible and/or running Protection to use this in addition to bandages?
Yes. It always good to have 2/6 + Protection or 4/6 or even just Protection.

And I understand that Vampiric Embrace isn't that useful for ranged either.
99 healing is better then VE (99 necro) for a ranged char.

Is my Bushido too high for an archer? The only ability that I use is Honoring. Is it worth lowering this to maybe 80?
80 is enough.

I'm not even sure if there is a peerless that can be solo'd with an archer.
I have killed all peerless with an archer except Lady Mel (never tried it with an archer).



p.s. My current archer has:
Archery 120 (115+5)
Tactics 120 (100+20)
Anatomy 120 (105+15)
Bushido 80
Chivalry 120
Resist Spells 110
Healing 120 (90+30)
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
I enjoy playing this archer but I feel like my skill allocation is not optimal. I use him for overall general playing and not for any specific purpose. I've never attempted a Peerless with him and I'm not even sure if there is a peerless that can be solo'd with an archer.

Please share some opinions on if there are ways to move points to make him a better all-around character.

Here are his skills:
Archery 100 [+20 with HH]
Tactics 100
Anatomy 100
Bushido 100
Chivalry 120
Resist Spells 90
Healing 90 [+10 with bandages]
He's also an Elf.

Here's some things that I've been considering that I could use input on.
  • Is my Bushido too high for an archer? The only ability that I use is Honoring. Is it worth lowering this to maybe 80? Or is there a significant advantage to bumping to 120 for a ranged character?
  • I really like running with 120 Chiv. I have to give kudos to Duncan Drake for sharing lost of information on how valuable this is. I don't run with 4/6 or with Protection and only utilize Close Wounds out of combat. Is it worth gearing for as close to 4/6 as possible and/or running Protection to use this in addition to bandages?
  • Resist is handy but I could do without it. The reason I haven't gotten rid of it is because I haven't found a suitable replacement. I'm missing the reduced mana cost of special moves by only having Bushido and Archery. Is it worth replacing Resist with fencing/swords and adding jewelry to reach 120 and getting the weapon discount? Couldn't I just use a Use Best Weapon if I need to whirlwind stuff?
  • I'm not a fan of Necro/SS. I understand how great leeching in Wraith form is but 1) it doesn't work well with high chiv and 2) I don't like being unmounted. And I understand that Vampiric Embrace isn't that useful for ranged either.
  • How applicable is SW to an archery template? I've noticed a handful of useful spells but since Mark of Death and Wildfire don't seem all that useful [mana too high], I might be able to get away with maybe 60. Any thoughts on this?
  • How useful is Ninjitsu? It looks like the only useful ability for a PvM archer would be mirror image. How useful is this ability with mitigating damage?

Thank you in advance for sharing your opi
Bumping Bushido to 120 would give you a significant advantage with Lightning Strike. Bushido in general is a great skill to 120, especially on a ranged character, because you can't Whirlwind you can use Momentum Strike combined with Hit Area and Hit Area two areas at the same time one further away and one right next to you if it procs both times. Confidence is also better at 120.

If you're mainly using Chivalry out of combat I would suggest that 120 is a waste. 4/6 casting can be great, however, it can be a pain to achieve on an Archer (not impossible) by usually needing 1 FC on your weapons where mods may already be tight due to them usually needing DI/SSI/Slayer/Leeches/Hit Area/HLD for various encounters. Especially if you're not running Vamp or Wraith Form and have no other method of leeching.

You can't use UBWS with ranged weapon skill to use melee weapons & vice versa. If you don't think you need Resist then get rid of it. You can carry a trapped box to deal with Parra, petals/pots/Chiv/bandages to deal with Poison. I personally hate using bandages and think they are one of the least useful healing methods out there, they're slow, especially when at 150 Dex maximum you get Cursed with no Resist you're not going to be over 140 and they get even slower. They also get interrupted and blocked very easily especially with no Resist, by Poison/Bleed/Mortal/Splinter.

Regarding Necro; Vamp Form is fantastic on any dexxer especially ranged, why? Because ranged characters can't leech as much as melee characters. Most Poisons auto cure on the first tick you get 14 Stam Regen and 2 Mana Regen and heal every time you hit something, the only penalty is -25 fire resist which is really easy to get on your suit to overcompensate. Wraith Form has no relationship with Chivalry at all, Wraith Form changes your resists by +15/-5/0/0/-5 and gives you a mana drain effect (you actively reduce the opponents mana) on any damage you do scaled against your Sprit Speak skill (which doesn't need to be particularly high either, 60-70 works fine) The only relationship Necro has with Chivalry is that casting Necro spells lowers karma, this really isn't a big deal considering what you gain from it, for example in Wraith Form you can chain Armour Ignore and kill things much faster than you can without it, you are usually gaining more karma than you lose. Even when using Curse Weapon, which again is fantastic especially on ranged characters, due to half as effective leeches on ranged weapons, the situations where you would need to use it are the big dangerous fights and it makes you near invincible, even if you're only hitting 100 damage which with 120 Chivalry, EoO, perfection, 100 DI etc you should be, you're healing for 50 damage every 1.25s... compare that to 'maybe' 30-80 every 4s with a bandage if it isn't blocked or slips.

Similar to Necro, Spellweaving is fantastic on any character! It has no secondary skill needed and needs no reagents, has huge defensive and offensive options, mana cost is a non issue because you're a dexxer and have Hit Mana Leech (or should). You have Gift Of Life, Attunement, Gift Of Renewal keeping you alive, with the mastery you have Mana Shield which absorbs ALL types of incoming damage including things like breath that is otherwise unavoidable on a ranged character. You have Thunderstorm/Essence Of Wind allowing you (with a level 6 focus which is easy to get with people calling for it in general chat) to damage an entire screen of monsters, which considering you can't Whirlwind is again very useful. You have Reaper Form that gives you an extra 10 SSI (which again is much needed on an Archer) and SDI to boost your Word Of Death damage. You have summons for distraction and damage, if you use the Spellweaving mastery you even have a summon that can Word Of Death with/for you! That's an extra 300 damage. If you did somehow manage to die with all that at your disposal you have Etheral Voyage for getting back to your corpse without being attacked. You can charm ('Tame') Repond monsters like Arctic Ogre Lords. You can boost all of your healing and summons with Arcane Empowerment (which also boosts Chivalry heals). Spellweaving can be 4/6 the same as Chivalry. Lastly you have Word Of Death, with no SDI, you're still able to do 300 damage in one spell. There is zero point having 60, you won't be able to get a Focus, if you only have 60 points spare you would be better off putting it in something like Poisoning which will give you a chance of auto curing poisons when they tick. Either 0 or 120 with this skill.

Ninjitsu is a fantastic skill on any character, especially ranged that often go without DCI. Like Chivalry and Spellweaving it can be 4/6 casting, it needs no reagents and has great defensive options. You can swap in and out of Animal Forms very quickly (so you can still use Chivalry) which have many and various benefits, including; Poison immunity (Unicorn), defensive Poisoning (you poison things that hit you - Frog Form), stamina regen (Ki-Rin), Evasion/Bleed (Tiger Form), mounted speed on foot, 40 HPR!!! (Cat/Dog Form) you can add another 20 - 2 from being human and 18 from items for a massive 60!, ignore anti male character damage from Semidar, defensive firebreath. Mirror Images are the best damage mitigation in the game, at 120 skill you have a 90% chance that an incoming melee attack with be diverted to a Mirror Image, if it is the monster loses target while you continue hitting - in many fights this means you cannot die. I can't remember if Focus Attack works with Archery I don't think it does but it can double all your Hit properties on your weapon (meaning 50% Hit Mana Leech becomes 100% etc, same with HLD/Hit Spell/Hit Area. Poisoned darts/stars allowing you to poison things at range, dark glow and parasitic giving you more healing at the same time as damaging.

The main thing that sicks out with your template is it doesn't look like you have any mastery, this is a skill you should take to 120 real skill, for 2-3 useful abilities.

My ranged dexxer:
120 Throwing
120 Tactics
120 Bushido
120 Anatomy
100 Necro
70 Spirit Speak
70 Chivalry

Uses Vamp Form the majority of the time while flying, can drop into Wraith to spam AI when it's safe to, use Curse Weapon in either.
 
Last edited:

CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
Bushido in general is a great skill to 120 if you have Parrying. For a ranged char the difference between 120 and 80 is very small. You don't use Lightning Strike because you prefer to use special moves. Moment Strike works only on melee range and does less damage than Holy Light. Confidence is not critical when you have Healing.
Without Parrying you will use Bushido only for honor and special moves cost reduction. If you are not going to get 300 skill points then 80 Bushido is almost as good as 120 and 120 Chivalry + 80 Bushido is much better then 80 Chivalry + 120 Bushido.

There are few ways to get 4/6 casting on an archer. Easiest one is Orny + City bonus.
HLL is pretty useless on bows. With 120 Chivalry you can do well without HSL. You hardly will need Hit Area on Composite Bow and on Yumi you needn't imbue SSI.

Healing is much better then VE for a ranged char. I have played a lot with both. Healing is good against any monster while VE varies from very good to completely useless depending on a monster. It is not a problem to keep 140+ dex. Even if you don't have Resisting Spells a Greater Agility potion counter all -dex curses.
Resisting Spells is very useful if you don't like eventual deaths from Blood Oath. And it also helps against Mana Drain (mana is critical for a ranged char) and some other spells.

Ninjitsu is totally crap except you are going to use Wraith form. Animal forms are defensive moves because your damage is low without special moves. Fast Movement speed and 20% damage reduction gives you more defense. If you wanna die fast you may try to kill Dread Horn using 40 HPR from Cat/Dog form. To be fair the only purpose you can use Animal Form in a battle is to run away fast. Mirror Images are very good when a monster doesn't use area attacks. But being ranged you usually don't need additional defense against melee monsters (i.e. when they are good). You can't use MI when mounted so most of time MI works like a trap for you. For example, you are fighting a Swords Master and happy that it doesn't hit you.... they it use Frenzied WW killing all images and slowing you... no more defense... and you even can't ran away because you are not mounted. Well you may cast Animal Form and ran away.... if you have enough skill to cast it without fails.... but spending so much skill points when you could just mount a swamp dragon and use hit-n-run... reason? All other ninjitsu spells doesn't work with a bow or doesn't work without hiding.

Spellweaving looks good on a paper. The main problem is mana cost. It is pretty difficult to chain AI with 50 HML and 200 cost reduction skill points. Another problem is casting time.
Gift Of Renewal is very good when someone else cast it on you but casting time is too long to cast it yourself during a fight. (And with 20 skill it is almost as good as with 120 skill).
Attunement absorbs two melee hits. And you probably take another hit while trying to recast it. As to me is much better to just keep out of melee range.
Gift Of Life doesn't allow you to select where to resurrect. Resurrecting on the place where you just have died often leads to another insta-death.
Mana Shield is completely useless for an archer because you need all mana you leach for special moves.
Thunderstorm/Essence Of Wind are not as good as Holly Light because you can shoot and leach mana while casting non-stop Holy Light. How many EOW you can cast in a dexter suit?
Reaper Form... do you really want to dismount just to get +10 SSI?
Charmed monsters die too fast against any serious monster.
Word Of Death without ~100 SDI on the suit doesn't worth time you spent to cast it.
 

kaio

Lore Master
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I enjoy playing this archer but I feel like my skill allocation is not optimal. I use him for overall general playing and not for any specific purpose. I've never attempted a Peerless with him and I'm not even sure if there is a peerless that can be solo'd with an archer.

Please share some opinions on if there are ways to move points to make him a better all-around character.

Here are his skills:
Archery 100 [+20 with HH]
Tactics 100
Anatomy 100
Bushido 100
Chivalry 120
Resist Spells 90
Healing 90 [+10 with bandages]
He's also an Elf.

Here's some things that I've been considering that I could use input on.
  • Is my Bushido too high for an archer? The only ability that I use is Honoring. Is it worth lowering this to maybe 80? Or is there a significant advantage to bumping to 120 for a ranged character?
  • I really like running with 120 Chiv. I have to give kudos to Duncan Drake for sharing lost of information on how valuable this is. I don't run with 4/6 or with Protection and only utilize Close Wounds out of combat. Is it worth gearing for as close to 4/6 as possible and/or running Protection to use this in addition to bandages?
  • Resist is handy but I could do without it. The reason I haven't gotten rid of it is because I haven't found a suitable replacement. I'm missing the reduced mana cost of special moves by only having Bushido and Archery. Is it worth replacing Resist with fencing/swords and adding jewelry to reach 120 and getting the weapon discount? Couldn't I just use a Use Best Weapon if I need to whirlwind stuff?
  • I'm not a fan of Necro/SS. I understand how great leeching in Wraith form is but 1) it doesn't work well with high chiv and 2) I don't like being unmounted. And I understand that Vampiric Embrace isn't that useful for ranged either.
  • How applicable is SW to an archery template? I've noticed a handful of useful spells but since Mark of Death and Wildfire don't seem all that useful [mana too high], I might be able to get away with maybe 60. Any thoughts on this?
  • How useful is Ninjitsu? It looks like the only useful ability for a PvM archer would be mirror image. How useful is this ability with mitigating damage?

Thank you in advance for sharing your opi
Your template dosent look that bad :)
If the template were mine. I would lower bushido to 80, the get the small mana reduction. (80bush+120archery).
Then i would rearrange my suit to have something like this.

100 archery ( +20 from HH)
120 tactics
110 ana (+10 ana from talisman)
100 healing
120 chiv
090 resist (+30 from juwels)
080 bushido

With this template you can pretty much do anything :)
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Bushido in general is a great skill to 120 if you have Parrying. For a ranged char the difference between 120 and 80 is very small. You don't use Lightning Strike because you prefer to use special moves.
I disagree. I use it when out of mana, the critical usually fully restores it so I can continue spamming AI.

Moment Strike works only on melee range and does less damage than Holy Light.
You can hit something at range, and the Momentum hits something at melee range, both doing more than Holy Light, and you can proc Hit Area off both hits invaluable for clearing spawn on a character that can't Whirlwind.

Confidence is not critical when you have Healing.
They're not really comparable as they serve different functions, but Confidence works through Poison & Mortal while Healing does not.

Without Parrying you will use Bushido only for honor and special moves cost reduction.
No you use it for as many spells as are useful, which includes LS, Confidence and Momentum Strike as already explained.

There are few ways to get 4/6 casting on an archer. Easiest one is Orny + City bonus.
Yes, but it's a pain the sense sense that the Orny has no dexxer mods, so you have to put them on either the suit or weapon.

HLL is pretty useless on bows. With 120 Chivalry you can do well without HSL. You hardly will need Hit Area on Composite Bow and on Yumi you needn't imbue SSI.
You don't need 120 Chivalry to use Divine, having HSL is still preferable than wasting mana/time casting. You are much faster spawning with Hit Area than without it.

Healing is much better then VE for a ranged char.
No, it isn't.

I have played a lot with both.
So have most people.

Healing is good against any monster while VE varies from very good to completely useless depending on a monster.
No, Healing also varies to completely useless, as it is easily slowed and blocked as already explained.

It is not a problem to keep 140+ dex. Even if you don't have Resisting Spells a Greater Agility potion counter all -dex curses.
So you now have to carry pots, and either have Balanced or Disarm to use them.

Resisting Spells is very useful if you don't like eventual deaths from Blood Oath. And it also helps against Mana Drain (mana is critical for a ranged char) and some other spells.
Yes, but most people do just fine without it, it's only an issue against Necro casters, and easily countered, especially with Chivalry. Mana returns, or is leeched back quickly, it's far from critical... especially if you're using bandages.

Ninjitsu is totally crap except you are going to use Wraith form.
Wraith Form is Necro not Ninjitsu. Ninjitsu has many useful abilities for all templates.

Animal forms are defensive moves because your damage is low without special moves.
No, some of them are offensive. You don't always need special moves to do high damage and this isn't really an issue with a Ninja anyway as you're not leeching to live.

Fast Movement speed and 20% damage reduction gives you more defense.
Getting hit for 20% less damage doesn't give you more defense than not getting hit at all.

If you wanna die fast you may try to kill Dread Horn using 40 HPR from Cat/Dog form.
I've killed many things in Cat/Dog Form including Dreadhorn with no problem at all?

To be fair the only purpose you can use Animal Form in a battle is to run away fast.
No, it's isn't. In fact you can kill things in Animal Form while naked with no weapon equipped.

Mirror Images are very good when a monster doesn't use area attacks.
They summon quick enough for it to not be a huge issue.

But being ranged you usually don't need additional defense against melee monsters (i.e. when they are good).
There's situations where you do, like Mephistis, Navrey, Medusa, Semidar all effortless on a Ninja.

You can't use MI when mounted so most of time MI works like a trap for you.
Yes you can. Dismount, summon, remount? Now you've got the 20% reduction and 90% chance they'll lose target altogether. Images work even better without DCI.

For example, you are fighting a Swords Master and happy that it doesn't hit you.... they it use Frenzied WW killing all images and slowing you... no more defense... and you even can't ran away because you are not mounted. Well you may cast Animal Form and ran away.... if you have enough skill to cast it without fails.... but spending so much skill points when you could just mount a swamp dragon and use hit-n-run... reason?
Becuase the more skill points you have in the skill the more effective it is? Because the formulas are calculated based on the skill level? Considering you're advocating using 80 Bushido JUST for perfection stating everything else is useless on a ranger character (not that it is) your comment here doesn't make a lot of sense.

All other ninjitsu spells doesn't work with a bow or doesn't work without hiding.
Darts/Stars do, mana cost reduction does, Forms do, Images do... It's already more than Perfection.

Spellweaving looks good on a paper. The main problem is mana cost. It is pretty difficult to chain AI with 50 HML and 200 cost reduction skill points.
The mana cost isn't an issue. You're just looking at it the wrong way. Especially so on a ranged character, it doesn't kill you to not AI and cast something, if that something helps you stay alive/kill the monster in a different way.

Another problem is casting time.
Not really, and you're the one who just said above how easy it is to get 4/6 on an Archer?

Gift Of Renewal is very good when someone else cast it on you but casting time is too long to cast it yourself during a fight. (And with 20 skill it is almost as good as with 120 skill).
No it isn't. On both points.

Attunement absorbs two melee hits. And you probably take another hit while trying to recast it. As to me is much better to just keep out of melee range.
No, that would depend on the size of the hits. It isn't always possible to completely avoid melee on any character.

Gift Of Life doesn't allow you to select where to resurrect. Resurrecting on the place where you just have died often leads to another insta-death.
Yes, but there also times when it allows you to res where you died when you ran offscreen getting dumped on with spells/breath, and then it's useful.

Mana Shield is completely useless for an archer because you need all mana you leach for special moves.
No, it isn't lol. You don't need all your mana for special moves, if that was true then wtf have you got 120 Chivalry on there for? That costs mana too. Again HML more than adequate for covering the casting of spells and specials, considering it also lasts 10 minutes.

Thunderstorm/Essence Of Wind are not as good as Holly Light because you can shoot and leach mana while casting non-stop Holy Light.
lol, are you serious, all through this you've been saying how you don't want to stay in melee range, Holy Light covers hardly any distance, where as Wind lets you hit a whole screen.

How many EOW you can cast in a dexter suit?
HML/Wraith Form as many as you like.

Reaper Form... do you really want to dismount just to get +10 SSI?
If you're in a situation where you are in no danger against something that has a negative SSI effect, why wouldn't you?

Charmed monsters die too fast against any serious monster.
Sometimes, but you can heal them, and use them for other purposes like training.

Word Of Death without ~100 SDI on the suit doesn't worth time you spent to cast it.
It's always worth it. What if you run out of arrows? Or show up too late to get rights with shots against something you can't hit frequently enough?
 

CorwinXX

Crazed Zealot
Stratics Veteran
I disagree. I use it when out of mana, the critical usually fully restores it so I can continue spamming AI.
Chance to get critical is 20%. With 55 LMC you spent 10 mana for two LS and in 36% of times you throw a critical and be able to cast AI. If you don't use LS in a two hits you able to cast AI 100% of time (you saved 10 mana by don't spending it for LS).
So you have 36% with LS and 100% with normal hit - what is better for you?

You can hit something at range, and the Momentum hits something at melee range, both doing more than Holy Light, and you can proc Hit Area off both hits invaluable for clearing spawn on a character that can't Whirlwind.
Let suppose char does about 100 damage with slayer weapon and monsters resists are about 20%.
With Momentum Strike you do two normal hits and one of those two hits triggers hit area. The first hit does about 80 damage (if monster have so much hp). The second hit does 80 damage or 120 damage (is the first hit is a kill) or 0 damage (is there are no monsters at melee range). Hit area does 16 (most of time) or 24 damage (when the first hit killed monster and the second hit trigger hit area) or 8 damage (50% chance to do 16) in 1 tile radius except the primary target. Let it be at average 55 damage for the second hit and 12 area damage.
With Holy Light you do one normal hit about 80 damage (if monster have so much hp) and about 19 damage to all monsters in 4 tiles radius.
So you have 80 to one + 55 to another + 12 in 1 tile radius with MS or 80 to one + 18 in 4 tiles radius with Holy Light.

If you tried Holy Light you'd know that with 4/6 Holy Light you do first two levels of spawn about as fast as with WW.

Confidence works through Poison & Mortal while Healing does not
120 Healing works through bleed or 3 level poison 50% of time. Ranged chars are very rare under Mortal effect. And you can remove Mortal if you want.

having HSL is still preferable than wasting mana/time casting
You continue shooting while casting DF so it is not wasting of time. Wasting of time is waiting when you 50% chance to HSL trigger when you stamina is dropped under 150.


Well the rest you comments is ... heh ... so weird.

What if you run out of arrows?
???

use them for other purposes like training
???

Holy Light covers hardly any distance
???

No it isn't
Do you know how much GoR regenerate with 20/120 SW???

No, it isn't lol. You don't need all your mana for special moves, if that was true then wtf have you got 120 Chivalry on there for? That costs mana too.
Do you know how much mana you lose when get hit under mana shield and how much chivalry spells cost?

Yes you can. Dismount, summon, remount?
???

Wraith Form is Necro not Ninjitsu.
???
I mean you are on foot when use Wraith form so you can use Ninjitsu spells

've killed many things in Cat/Dog Form including Dreadhorn with no problem at all?
???
solo? ha ha ha - I want to see this

.... and so on
 

Zalan

Crazed Zealot
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
If you have Bushido Mastery III selected Confidence can heal 100hp over 4 seconds. In that form I call it Superior to Healing unless your cross healing.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

Certifiable
Stratics Veteran
Chance to get critical is 20%. With 55 LMC you spent 10 mana for two LS and in 36% of times you throw a critical and be able to cast AI. If you don't use LS in a two hits you able to cast AI 100% of time (you saved 10 mana by don't spending it for LS).
So you have 36% with LS and 100% with normal hit - what is better for you?
As I said, if you're out of Mana because you didn't leech from spamming AI, you can LS sooner than you can AI, with higher Bushido there's a better chance or getting a critical hit and with a critical hit there's more chance of HML leeching to full.

Let suppose char does about 100 damage with slayer weapon and monsters resists are about 20%.
With Momentum Strike you do two normal hits and one of those two hits triggers hit area. The first hit does about 80 damage (if monster have so much hp). The second hit does 80 damage or 120 damage (is the first hit is a kill) or 0 damage (is there are no monsters at melee range). Hit area does 16 (most of time) or 24 damage (when the first hit killed monster and the second hit trigger hit area) or 8 damage (50% chance to do 16) in 1 tile radius except the primary target. Let it be at average 55 damage for the second hit and 12 area damage.
With Holy Light you do one normal hit about 80 damage (if monster have so much hp) and about 19 damage to all monsters in 4 tiles radius.
So you have 80 to one + 55 to another + 12 in 1 tile radius with MS or 80 to one + 18 in 4 tiles radius with Holy Light.
Except Hit Area hits a much bigger area than 1 tile, and potentially in two areas of the screen.

If you tried Holy Light you'd know that with 4/6 Holy Light you do first two levels of spawn about as fast as with WW.
I have used Holy Light, it's how I know that Momentum & Hit Area is better.

120 Healing works through bleed or 3 level poison 50% of time. Ranged chars are very rare under Mortal effect. And you can remove Mortal if you want.
He doesn't have 120 Healing.

You continue shooting while casting DF so it is not wasting of time. Wasting of time is waiting when you 50% chance to HSL trigger when you stamina is dropped under 150.
It is a waste of time because you can only perform so many actions at once, if you're wasting your time actively having to refresh your Stamina then you're not doing something else, like toggling AI or LS or MS.


Well the rest you comments is ... heh ... so weird.
Try asking specific questions about the parts you don't understand and I'll try to help.

Though to be honest if you can't comprehend that Holy Light doesn't have as much range as Hit Area or Essence Of Wind I'm not expecting you to understand much of anything.

Do you know how much GoR regenerate with 20/120 SW???
Do you know how much mana you lose when get hit under mana shield and how much chivalry spells cost?
Is that relevant to the point I made?

solo? ha ha ha - I want to see this
Yes. (By the way, you've posted in the thread.)
[Ninjitsu] - My new template.
 

Gb8719

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I decided to test out Corwin's idea of adding Swords to the template for two reasons: it allowed me to reach the 300 skill point threshold for reduced weapon specials, and it provides a more effective way of handling low level spawn and mobs. I had to raise swords and rework the suit a little bit to get it just right.
I tested it out for about an hour at the Dragon Turtle spawn and I'm EXTREMELY happy with it.

I don't know how viable this template would be if someone wasn't using the EC. I have macro's that allow me to switch out jewelry, weapon, and some other misc. pieces depending on I'm going ranged or melee range.

I'm using scrolls to switch in and out of Protection. I'm not opting for Protection while in melee range since healing+100% HLL seems to be enough. In archery range I'm opting for protection and 2/6 to utilize max Karma heals, cure, decurse. I did test out Holy Light and it's a nice addition to the damage I'm doing but it seems kind of underwhelming. I'm running an axe with 100 HLL and 82 HML so I don't have much of an issue spamming this at the same time as I do whirlwind.

Here's my final modified skills when holding a double axe:
110 Anatomy
120 Archery
100 Healing
120 Tactics
120 Bushido
120 Chiv
120 Swords


Here it is with a bow:
110 Anatomy
120 Archery
100 Healing
120 Tactics
90 Bushido
90 Chiv
90 Swords

I still have some minor tweaking to do on the gear since DCI is only 30 out of 45. I'm not sure how crucial it is to have high DCI if I'm not running parry? Overall, I'm extremely impressed with how it's performing so far.
 

Merlin

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Personally, I don't believe much in the whole set up of putting a melee skill like swords onto a ranged archer/thrower template. The template from your first post is perfectly fine and is very close to what I run for my "ABC Archer" character. I find having Resist Spells is more helpful than Swords, depending on what you fully intend to use it for.
 

Yadd of Legends

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I dunno, I've never tried it but always thought the idea of being able use whirlwind with swords for low level spawns and archery for the harder stuff looked pretty attractive, and I've been thinking of trying it
 

CorwinXX

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If you have Bushido Mastery III selected Confidence can heal 100hp over 4 seconds. In that form I call it Superior to Healing unless your cross healing.
No. If you have 120 Bushido Confidence gives you 100 HPR for 4 seconds. So it heals 40hp over 4 seconds. Get level III Bushido Mastery on TC1 and test it.
 

CorwinXX

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As I said, if you're out of Mana because you didn't leech from spamming AI, you can LS sooner than you can AI, with higher Bushido there's a better chance or getting a critical hit and with a critical hit there's more chance of HML leeching to full.
To cast two LS you need 10 mana (50 LMC). Then if you are lucky enough you get a critical (the probability is 36%) and got mana for AI. But you could just spend those 10 mana for AI. So you suggest instead of casting AI spent mana for LS hoping for a critical that gives you mana for AI. It sounds like a pretty stupid business, doesn't it?
 

CorwinXX

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Read this thread it's in 4th post down.

Skill Mastery Testing

No need to go to test. I have it on my Sampire. It's a great heal.
When I do test and see that Confidence heals 40hp and someone write that Confidence heals 100hp I trust more to what I see myself.
But in this case there are exactly what I have wrote:
With 120 Bushido, Confidence gives +100 HPR for 4 secs
100 HPR, not 100hp.
 

CorwinXX

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ut being ranged you usually don't need additional defense against melee monsters
There's situations where you do, like Mephistis, Navrey, Medusa, Semidar all effortless on a Ninja.
May be you need but I needn't additional defense against Mephistis, Navrey, Medusa, Semidar. For example, I have no any problem even when Navrey webs me because it spends most of time I webbed to come to melee range and very rarely hits me two times during the web duration.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

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To cast two LS you need 10 mana (50 LMC). Then if you are lucky enough you get a critical (the probability is 36%) and got mana for AI. But you could just spend those 10 mana for AI. So you suggest instead of casting AI spent mana for LS hoping for a critical that gives you mana for AI. It sounds like a pretty stupid business, doesn't it?
To cast one LS I need 3 mana. 3 mana takes hardly any time at all to regenerate or leech. I couldn't spend 10 mana on AI because it costs more than 10 mana.

As I frequently play this and know it works, no it doesn't sound stupid, what does sound stupid is your flawed examples of something you clearly haven't done.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

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Show me how you had solo killed Dreadhorn with this template standing in Cat/Dog Form.
What is it you think I'm doing in the picture in that thread, where I'm clearly soloing Dreadhorn, that I couldn't do by going in to Cat/Dog Form?

If you're going to say Chivalry... it's really not that complicated, cast EoO, cast Cat/Dog Form and Mirror Images. Try it, you might learn something.
 

CorwinXX

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Fast Movement speed and 20% damage reduction gives you more defense.
Getting hit for 20% less damage doesn't give you more defense than not getting hit at all.
Use Fast Movement (hit and run) to avoid melee hits. And 20% damage reduction against direct damage spells.
Images gives you chance to avoid melee hits. And Images usually are very precarious/insecure help against direct damage spells because mage creatures often cast AOE damage spells. Could you show me how you use Images against something like Night Terrors?
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

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May be you need but I needn't additional defense against Mephistis, Navrey, Medusa, Semidar. For example, I have no any problem even when Navrey webs me because it spends most of time I webbed to come to melee range and very rarely hits me two times during the web duration.
So what? No one was talking about you. What you seem to (continually) fail to understand Corwin is that there are (thankfully) more ways to play UO than just yours.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

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Use Fast Movement (hit and run) to avoid melee hits. And 20% damage reduction against direct damage spells.
Images gives you chance to avoid melee hits. And Images usually are very precarious/insecure help against direct damage spells because mage creatures often cast AOE damage spells. Could you show me how you use Images against something like Night Terrors?
Most casters don't have AOE. Images work the same regardless of the monster.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

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Just show me how you kill a Night Terror using images.... (I will come to the shard you are playing to see it).
I don't currently have a Ninja.

Plus, why? You've already been shown to have commented in a thread full of things solod with Images, despite your claims that it is impossible to do so, I don't see why any more evidence is needed that a) it can be done and b) you don't know what you're talking about and are just trolling.

What is it you think Night Terrors can do when they've lost target that other monsters can't?
 

CorwinXX

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What is it you think I'm doing in the picture in that thread, where I'm clearly soloing Dreadhorn, that I couldn't do by going in to Cat/Dog Form?
1. On the picture you are not in Dogs form.
2. With a bow you don't leach even close as much hp as with an Ornate (+ LJ)
 

CorwinXX

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Plus, why? You've already been shown to have commented in a thread full of things solod with Images, despite your claims that it is impossible to do so, I don't see why any more evidence is needed that a) it can be done and b) you don't know what you're talking about and are just trolling.
Yes, there were several monsters you are solo'ed... but probably by a coincidence they all doesn't casters. They all can be easily solo'ed by an archer just by keeping distance to avoid melee hits. So they all are example when an archer needn't cast Images just because it does well without them. But there are monsters in the game that are dangerous for an archer (because they cast a lot and hard). And against those monsters Images are useless. There are no sense to spend 120 skill points for Images against the first group (because you do well without Images). And there are no sense to spend 120 skill points for Images against the second group (because Images don't useful).

I didn't posted that it impossible to kill Dreadhorn with images. I posted that it pretty stupid to kill Dreadhorn in Dog form by an archer. Even if you will be able to kill it (I myself doubt it) it will take 4x more time without special moves.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

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1. On the picture you are not in Dogs form.
2. With a bow you don't leach even close as much hp as with an Ornate (+ LJ)
1. It doesn't matter, I'm using a 100% elemental weapon, the only thing I need to be out of Cat/Dog Form for is casting EoO, the rest of the fight is standing there hitting Images and the occasional potion macro. In what way would having 40 HPR make this less possible?

2. This is true. However, with Ninjitsu you don't need to, it is a different play style. With a Ninja you can (for example) use a 0 SSI Heavy Crossbow with whatever it's no SSI max leech is.
 

CorwinXX

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You doubt things you've seen done but haven't done them yourself
I haven't seen anyone killed Dreadhorn being in Dog form. This is why I doubt it. And I curious how much time it could take.

In what way would having 40 HPR make this less possible?
You forgot about:
1. with your axe you used spell (focus attack) that you can't use with a bow
2. with your axe you had more damage
3. on your axe you had mods that you can't get on a bow
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

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I haven't seen anyone killed Dreadhorn being in Dog form. This is why I doubt it. And I curious how much time it could take.

You forgot about:
1. with your axe you used spell (focus attack) that you can't use with a bow
2. with your axe you had more damage
3. on your axe you had mods that you can't get on a bow
1. It isn't necessary to use Focus Attack to kill Dreadhorn, in fact it would be even easier to do this now there is Fey Slayer Imbuable.
2. No if I was using bows they would have higher base damage, because I would use a Heavy X Bow. If you mean in regards to leeching, leeching is not as much of an issue when you are getting hit so much less.
3. No I didn't, what ones? (The axe was DI/HSL/HML/HLL/Balanced iirc - at work at the moment but can check when I get in.)

EDIT: Also if you notice, I'm not even maxed skills fighting Dreadhorn.
 

CorwinXX

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It isn't necessary to use Focus Attack to kill Dreadhorn
But with Focus Attack your damage was almost 50% higher.

No if I was using bows they would have higher base damage, because I would use a Heavy X Bow.
With 180 Stam and 60 SSI: Ornate Axe is 61 dps. Heavy X bow is 42 dps.

No I didn't, what ones? (The axe was DI/HSL/HML/HLL/Balanced iirc
No SSI on your weapon? Well.
You can get 93-100 HML/HLL on ornate and only 50 HML/HLL on heavy xbow. And if you put SSI on your weapon the difference would be even greater.
 

Lord GOD(GOD)

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But with Focus Attack your damage was almost 50% higher.

With 180 Stam and 60 SSI: Ornate Axe is 61 dps. Heavy X bow is 42 dps.

No SSI on your weapon? Well.
You can get 93-100 HML/HLL on ornate and only 50 HML/HLL on heavy xbow. And if you put SSI on your weapon the difference would be even greater.
Focus Attack is not needed, it speeds things up that is all.

DPS is not the factor with this playstyle, base damage is.

The leeches are not an issue with this playstyle, you can easily go 20+ seconds without getting hit and you only need mana for Images, and the occasional pop out of form to cast EoO.

Cat/Dog is more than adequate for taking care of Poison tick damage or the occasional spell that lands. (Because on aggro monsters can instantly que 2 spells, 4 for Necro casters - with multiple Images up this is a non issue.)
 

BeaIank

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Dreadhorn is not fey slayer, so having fey slayer on your weapon is wasting a mod there.
 

General Lee

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Dreadhorn is not fey slayer, so having fey slayer on your weapon is wasting a mod there.
I'm a bit late to the party with this one but according to Slayer Property Items – Ultima Online Dread Horn is indeed affected by this slayer. At least thats what I think it says and I've not been out to test it. Sorry to drag up an old thread but I just remembered your comment and just come across this in the wiki.
 

BeaIank

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I'm a bit late to the party with this one but according to Slayer Property Items – Ultima Online Dread Horn is indeed affected by this slayer. At least thats what I think it says and I've not been out to test it. Sorry to drag up an old thread but I just remembered your comment and just come across this in the wiki.
He is not. I have tested several different weapons with the fey slayer on him and none did any extra damage. My sample pool for that test is over 50 runs.
 

BeaIank

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I was pretty excited when they put fey slayer on imbuing and it was the very first thing I tested.
I gave my support bard a -20 mage weapon fey slayer short bow and a fey slayer long sword to the pure paladin I use to hunt captains at Blackthorn... That turned out to be the same 20 or so damage per hit for my bard (I was expecting hits in the 40s with fey slayer), like with a normal bow and AIs in the 90s and very low 100s for paladin with EoO up.
I got my shapely butt handed to me there. It was ugly. :(

Now, Mel is definitely fey slayer.
 

Tectop

Journeyman
So from reading all the above, does everyone feel that it's better to stop Chivalry @80 and take Bushido to 120, for an archer?
 

BeaIank

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I have three archers. All of them run 120 chiv. One runs 120 bush, other 80 and the last one runs without bushido (had to leave space for fishing). EoO at 120 chiv and high karma adds a lot of damage.
Bushido perfection is nice and all, but you need to be able to hit consistently to keep it up. And the UO RNG is not a kind mistress for archers.
 
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