Just seems to get worse :(

[TrinityDivine]

<blockquote><hr>

When they lower the payouts, I have to raise my price which is disheartening. BUT, it takes me well over a month to make enough to sell at an undersell rate that EA offers.

No matter what, I still believe that the payouts are too low. I have very little set aside for my property. My circumstances are a little different than the average person that plays, but Im not going into that. I sell simoleans to buy my monthly subscription so that I can play a game that I enjoy, which is slowly evaporating.

All I want is a game that I enjoy. Some are into job tracks, some are into CC, but get some more things into the game that makes it enjoyable for the many different people that play. If not raising the payouts, at least make it fun. Both are not in the game at the moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your last paragraph is key to this game's success. They need to figure out a way to make things fun again. I believe that right now, the game already has the elements it needs to make it fun but the players aren't being driven in the right direction. Right now everyone is concentrating on leveling up their skills again, and trying to get back the money they lost in the move. To me that is the most un-fun part of the game, especially with the changed economy.

 

[Guest]

So, do you have the land already? Or no? What specifically do you plan on spending money on? Land? Stock?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

As an aside - is it normal business on these forums for the mods to assail posters with dripping sarcasm and straw man arguments?

[/ QUOTE ]The only straw men being assasinated around here are those constructed by some of the people arguing for increased payouts. I'm dealing strictly at the logical level of the argument:

Premise #1: The job object payouts are too low.
Premise #2: The lowered payouts are due to botting activity in the game.
Conclusion: Bringing more bots online will solve the payout problem and force the increase in payouts.

This is a logically invalid argument.

Premise #1: The job object payouts are too low
Premise #2: The lowered payouts are due to botting activity in the game.
Premise #3: Lowered payouts are driving up number of bots.
Conclusion: Increasing payouts will help eliminate bots.

Is a logically valid argument, but it is not sound, as premise #3 is flawed. Even though the current level of payout may be driving up the number of bots, the number of bots in the game has never been predicated by the level of payout. They exist because they can, and because the amount of payout is never adequate for some people, thus they buy simoleans from botters, which helps reinforce and maintain the botting "industry". Therefore, my original conclusion, "The only way to get rid of botters is to stop buying their products" is valid and sound.

Note: No straw men were harmed in the construction and breakdown of these arguments.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

So, do you have the land already? Or no? What specifically do you plan on spending money on? Land? Stock?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to waste my time going through this with you. I have already done my figures and have decided to much time is required, or having to pay for either to many accounts or buy simoleans. It would not only take months to build and stock a store to be competitive, but with the way stores are being handled right now likely wouldn't be worth it any more anyway.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

justify pure laziness ?? i run a shopping lot where i sell all my own custom content, CC that takes hours to make....i dont want to get a sim job, i want to run my lot, something i was able to do last week by spending an hour or 2 jamming to fund new uploads and re-stocking......

I can no longer do this and it has nothing to do with being lazy, it has to do with the payouts being reduced by 3/4 overnight....

[/ QUOTE ]It seems your business practices are fundamentally flawed. The sale of your content should be sufficient to sustain production, as well as maintain your store. If it is not, then that suggests your selling price is too low.

 

[Guest]

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<blockquote><hr>

I feel the need to say that just because they are not acquiescing to the cries of those saying 'Give us higher payouts!!!' doesn't mean they don't hear them, it just means that the answer is 'no' for right now, for reasons that are unknown to all of us. Some people seem to have a real problem with the word 'no' whether stated or implied, they think that since they pay EA's salaries that EA should jump to their every request/demand the way a servant would. The problem with that is that yes, you are paying EA's salaries, but so are those of us who either have no problem with the way things are, or are willing to lump it if not like it for the good of the over all picture, so if they switch gears to your request, then they will not be listening to this half of the playerbase. Solution: they have to not only listen to the playerbase collectively, they have to do what they feel is the best way to acheive *their* goals, since it is their game, and deal with the griping that comes along with it.....cuz no matter what they did, somebody would be griping.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are asking for FAIR payouts, not higher payouts......$50 per single object at max skill is not a fair payout , it doesnt matter how you try and justify what the devs are doing or why they are doing it....

If in any other business you raise or lower something you supply to your customers, you owe them an explanation or you loose there custom.....at the very least a warning might have been nice to give people a chance to earn a bit of extra cash before the drop or maybe someone like myself wouldnt have just paid $20,000 increasing the size of the lot if they would have known...

Visit money lots and ask if people are happy with $10-50 payouts and ask them why they think EA have done it....all because players dont vent the fustrations on forums doesnt mean they are not venting....

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you're saying, I've heard the pancakes in money houses too, which is one of the reasons I don't spend much time in money houses, come to think of it. I've been spending my time skilling past my current locks in preparation for amnesty, so I can lock the skills when I get the locks. When I am in a money house, I do my best to explain why EA is doing what they are doing, and direct people toward the forums and the blog so that the ones who are just wanting rational explanations can get them.....for the ones that just wanna gripe, it won't matter what facts you show them, they'll continue to gripe. When I see people like Niki and Katheryne, who do not play even as much as I do, achieving reasonable goals in a reasonable time frame, that tells me that it is possible, and that those who aren't achieving it just aren't doing what pays the highest at the given time, and are instead doing what they *want* to do, and then griping about the payout for that particular object. It's like they havent' read anything on 'dynamic payouts' that we HAVE been warned about (since somebody said we were given no warning, that's not true, dynamic payouts have been talked about for many many months), but given the number of people in game that have chosen to remain ignorant to what's going on around them, chances are they have NOT in fact read about it. That's not the same as not getting a warning though, people just choose not to visit here or the blog, even though the blog address is accessible in game. I think a 3rd button needs to be added for here, myself, since they have the blog and the Wiki already programmed.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

If the Dev team is working on combatting the bots with low payouts, the only payout that is going to get rid of the bots is a $0 payout.

[/ QUOTE ]The only guaranteed way to get rid of botters is if <u>everybody</u> stopped buying their simoleans.

Yes, it's that simple!

Stop making botting profitable for the botters, and they will go away. Then perhaps the payouts will increase.

Just a thought.

[/ QUOTE ]
It occurs to me that some of the botting is in preparation for the day cash-out is enabled. Players stockpiling simoleons for the big score.
Not everyone is a professional simoleon merchant.
So, when you say "everybody", you would have to include EA.

 

[jackdoe]

If you take the time to read this, you might underdstand where i am coming from...

here is what i was doing with my game...

I started off by getting my cooking skill level up , slowly earned some cash jamming and was able after about a week of almost constant play and chat i was able to buy a simple plot of land...

Over the following few weeks i gained some rooms mates and carried on gaining my cooking skill and jamming to help build a house on my lot with the help of my roomies

I started to earn enough money to begin uploading and re-ordering some of my CC which i started off just giving away to other players until someone suggested i sell it.....i changed my lot to a shopping lot and continued to make and upload CC paid for by my ever improving cooking skills and the money i earned from my time skilling by making jam...

People liked my CC and where buying it but i was running out of room fast, so last week i decided to jam like crazy, one day i was jamming for 7 hours straight, i finally got enough money to max size my lot and build a tiny house for me and my roomies in the upper left corner....i had very little money left to place floor tiles so my floor looks ugly and out of place but atleast i have enough room to showcase my ever growing CC collection

6 weeks it took me to get to that point and countless hours of playing until sometimes 4am , last Friday i was left with 382 simoleans to my name but i was happy with what i had accomplished and was ready to spend my sim life at my shop selling my CC and creating more...

Little did i know that on the next morning i could no longer make money jamming so i was suddenly left with 382 simoleans to try and run my shop lot...impossible, i am now being told to go and get a sim job

Can you see now why i am angry ???

 

[Guest]

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<blockquote><hr>

So, do you have the land already? Or no? What specifically do you plan on spending money on? Land? Stock?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to waste my time going through this with you. I have already done my figures and have decided to much time is required, or having to pay for either to many accounts or buy simoleans. It would not only take months to build and stock a store to be competitive, but with the way stores are being handled right now likely wouldn't be worth it any more anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it's not too much time, it's too much time *to you*. Your expectations are the issue then, I submit, not the payouts. If you expect to make $5k-$10k a day, you're going to be disappointed. If you adjust your expectations to meet reality, you might be disappointed in the short-term, but in the end you *could* still reach your goals......so your issue isn't 'cannot' it's 'choose not to'.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

So, do you have the land already? Or no? What specifically do you plan on spending money on? Land? Stock?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to waste my time going through this with you. I have already done my figures and have decided to much time is required, or having to pay for either to many accounts or buy simoleans. It would not only take months to build and stock a store to be competitive, but with the way stores are being handled right now likely wouldn't be worth it any more anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to ask so many questions, but I was honestly trying to help. The thing about running figures is you have to factor in alternatives. I was going to give suggestions on how to achieve your goal in a slightly different way, but achieve it nonetheless. Guess not.

 

[Guest]

Mods are players too. Being a mod does not take away our option to post our opinions freely the same as everyone else.

If you dont like something the way it is write up a better design and post it on the wiki. Note I say "better design". If your plan is a good one it has every chance of making it into the game. Keeping in mind of course that just because you think its a better plan doesnt mean everyone else will.

As far as payouts go, we've been told they will fluctuate, that is what is. I see alot of posts mentioning jams, has anyone tried the other job objects to see if anything else is paying better?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

So, do you have the land already? Or no? What specifically do you plan on spending money on? Land? Stock?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to waste my time going through this with you. I have already done my figures and have decided to much time is required, or having to pay for either to many accounts or buy simoleans. It would not only take months to build and stock a store to be competitive, but with the way stores are being handled right now likely wouldn't be worth it any more anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it's not too much time, it's too much time *to you*. Your expectations are the issue then, I submit, not the payouts. If you expect to make $5k-$10k a day, you're going to be disappointed. If you adjust your expectations to meet reality, you might be disappointed in the short-term, but in the end you *could* still reach your goals......so your issue isn't 'cannot' it's 'choose not to'.

[/ QUOTE ]

My issue is not only that I choose not to, it's that many will be like me and choose not to. Infact I think that the majority of paople who start off from scratch in this game will choose not to. Putting the game back in the place where it was before, not enough players to support it.

 

[jackdoe]

<blockquote><hr>

Mods are players too. Being a mod does not take away our option to post our opinions freely the same as everyone else.

If you dont like something the way it is write up a better design and post it on the wiki. Note I say "better design". If your plan is a good one it has every chance of making it into the game. Keeping in mind of course that just because you think its a better plan doesnt mean everyone else will.

As far as payouts go, we've been told they will fluctuate, that is what is. I see alot of posts mentioning jams, has anyone tried the other job objects to see if anything else is paying better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep its the same for all single money making objects

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Or if the payouts wernt so low then maybe we wouldnt need the botters...i wonder how many people are buying a botting program right now thanks to the extremely low payouts ??

[/ QUOTE ]Just stop. Right there.

That excuse is sooo full of holes, it has no hope of floating.

Maybe if the problem with bots only started happening as a result of the lowered payouts, maybe you might have a point. But the problem with bots has been with us for the last several years - payout amounts have absolutely no bearing on the bot problem. People utilizing their "services", however, are.

Niki is right: The days of the 10k pizza rounds are over. Get over it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it does.
It's pretty obvious that a great many players are frustrated and upset at the reduction in earnings.
They can no longer make the money they feel they need in the 1, 2, or 3 hours that they have to play at night. The prospect of having a bot play for them for several additional hours to make up the shortfall, can have a lot of appeal.

 

[mysticlisa516]

when did this game become real life,,,i keep hearing, its a game, its a game,,,well give the paying customers what they want.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

when did this game become real life,,,i keep hearing, its a game, its a game,,,well give the paying customers what they want.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem arises when what the players want becomes different from what the company needs.

 

[jackdoe]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

when did this game become real life,,,i keep hearing, its a game, its a game,,,well give the paying customers what they want.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem arises when what the players want becomes different from what the company needs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The company needs paying customers.........

 

[Guest]

Which they have.

With the concept of cashout on the horizon, they need to be sure that the economy is tightly managed. We can't have them going bankrupt on the very first day that players can sell their simoleans. That wouldn't be good for anybody.

 

[jackdoe]

How about this for a compromise ,

No sim (with the exception of money gained from items sold at shopping lots) can earn more than 5,000 simoleans in any 24 hour period...

$5,000 per rl day is not excessive and for most people its way more than what they need plus it also put a limit on what bot programs can make therefore making them pointless......

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

when did this game become real life,,,i keep hearing, its a game, its a game,,,well give the paying customers what they want.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem arises when what the players want becomes different from what the company needs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The company needs paying customers.........

[/ QUOTE ]Where were the paying customers when jams were paying up to $650 each?

I don't think the problem has anything to do with payouts. It has everything to do with expectations. And the problems arise because everyone is expecting the status quo.

The status quo could not save TSO. TSO is over; shut down by EA due to lack of paying customers. We now have a new game - EA-Land. And with the new game need to come new expectations.

 

[jackdoe]

<blockquote><hr>

Which they have.

With the concept of cashout on the horizon, they need to be sure that the economy is tightly managed. We can't have them going bankrupt on the very first day that players can sell their simoleans. That wouldn't be good for anybody.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats is the easiest thing to fix.......dont do cash out.....i lost so many simoleans over the years on sims that where deleted by myself or Maxis and it never bothered me.....i have yet to see anyone talk about playing the game to earn rl cash anyway.....

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

So, do you have the land already? Or no? What specifically do you plan on spending money on? Land? Stock?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to waste my time going through this with you. I have already done my figures and have decided to much time is required, or having to pay for either to many accounts or buy simoleans. It would not only take months to build and stock a store to be competitive, but with the way stores are being handled right now likely wouldn't be worth it any more anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry to ask so many questions, but I was honestly trying to help. The thing about running figures is you have to factor in alternatives. I was going to give suggestions on how to achieve your goal in a slightly different way, but achieve it nonetheless. Guess not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I thought you were headed to towards jumping on my posts. Thanx for the thought and the intended help but there is more to my decision to stop working towards goals than just the time it will take me personally. I played this game for years before and am very good at finding ways to make large amounts of simoleans when I want to. I look at this from the prospective of new players and players that are not so good at making stocks of simoleans. For this game to survive I feel they have to be considered much more than they are now. I am also not prepared to put in the time on something that all the evidence is pointing towards the game not being successful. It is my opinion that all EA is showing us and has done since thay opened EA Land is that they are not on top of many important issues in the game. Until they do I am not prepared to spend the amount of time it would take.

 

[Guest]

Actually, I am not entirely for Cash-Out, because I foresee various issues, mostly legal ones, that will come from it. I am not really against it either, and I have faith that the devs will see it through in a way that it works out without too many problems.

 

[jackdoe]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

when did this game become real life,,,i keep hearing, its a game, its a game,,,well give the paying customers what they want.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem arises when what the players want becomes different from what the company needs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The company needs paying customers.........

[/ QUOTE ]Where were the paying customers when jams were paying up to $650 each?

I don't think the problem has anything to do with payouts. It has everything to do with expectations. And the problems arise because everyone is expecting the status quo.

The status quo could not save TSO. TSO is over; shut down by EA due to lack of paying customers. We now have a new game - EA-Land. And with the new game need to come new expectations.

[/ QUOTE ]

EA-Land will also be over if one of the main reasons for playing the game is taken away....

All MMO games have a main aim , be it a high level to use a certain sword or create guilds to battle other guilds...one of the biggest aims for EA-Land is to earn simoleans to be able to take your gaming experience further, it is not to be patient and wait 6 months to be able to afford a house, people are going to loose interest....when they loose interest EA will loose there custom ......who wants to pay £10 per month for 6 months before they can possibly have enough in game cash to say open a pet store..no-one thats who

 

[Guest]

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<blockquote><hr>

And i suppose you telling us few players here that if people would stop using botting programs then there wouldnt be this problem is a much stronger argument for the stupidly low payouts ??

Only yesterday i saw 3 people asking about the website to go and buy the pizza bot program, so i suppose you could say that for some people the botting problem is just starting because now people feel the need to use them again....we all know they where asking about the bots because of the lower payouts...

[/ QUOTE ]
Problem: Payouts are really low; payouts lowered due to botters.

Solution: Bring more botters online.

Am I the only one who sees a problem with that logic???

Even if one completely overlooks the problems with that plan, how does one justify spending money on something guaranteed to keep payouts low, when the same money could buy an awful lot of simoleans right out of the ATM - and not have a negative impact on payouts?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not a game defined by logic - it is defined by the individual.
If the individual wants to improve their lot in life (in this case, the game), they will. By fair means or foul.
Fair, if possible - but foul if necessary. And again, it is the individual who decides when it becomes necessary. At that point, it is usually fairly easy to justify the decision as one that was, in their mind, forced on them by the unfairly lowered payouts.
I could go on for awhile in this vein, but the short of it is that players want to play their game, and many will cheat, even if they wouldn't normally do so, if they feel they are being pushed into a corner.
Why spend money on a bot when that same money can buy the cash they need from an ATM?
Because they will eventually need more cash, and the bot is already paid for.
As to the negative impact on payouts - I doubt anybody feels their "tiny" bit of involvement is going to make a difference.

 

[Guest]

Old players who were used to instant success may well feel that way, but new players, unless they hear us complaining about changes have no expectations and should have no issue playing the game at whatever pace is necessary to succeed.

I think in all the controversy players have forgotten to have fun getting to their goal. Look at it this way, the longer it takes to get there the more fun you have on the way. Maybe its like taking a cross country road trip via route 66 or the much faster highway. Sure its faster, but its alot more fun to take the long road.

 

[jackdoe]

<blockquote><hr>

Old players who were used to instant success may well feel that way, but new players, unless they hear us complaining about changes have no expectations and should have no issue playing the game at whatever pace is necessary to succeed.

I think in all the controversy players have forgotten to have fun getting to their goal. Look at it this way, the longer it takes to get there the more fun you have on the way. Maybe its like taking a cross country road trip via route 66 or the much faster highway. Sure its faster, but its alot more fun to take the long road.

[/ QUOTE ]

No game out there expects you to wait weeks or months to obtain a single goal...and there is a reason for that....

 

[jackdoe]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

And i suppose you telling us few players here that if people would stop using botting programs then there wouldnt be this problem is a much stronger argument for the stupidly low payouts ??

Only yesterday i saw 3 people asking about the website to go and buy the pizza bot program, so i suppose you could say that for some people the botting problem is just starting because now people feel the need to use them again....we all know they where asking about the bots because of the lower payouts...

[/ QUOTE ]
Problem: Payouts are really low; payouts lowered due to botters.

Solution: Bring more botters online.

Am I the only one who sees a problem with that logic???

Even if one completely overlooks the problems with that plan, how does one justify spending money on something guaranteed to keep payouts low, when the same money could buy an awful lot of simoleans right out of the ATM - and not have a negative impact on payouts?

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not a game defined by logic - it is defined by the individual.
If the individual wants to improve their lot in life (in this case, the game), they will. By fair means or foul.
Fair, if possible - but foul if necessary. And again, it is the individual who decides when it becomes necessary. At that point, it is usually fairly easy to justify the decision as one that was, in their mind, forced on them by the unfairly lowered payouts.
I could go on for awhile in this vein, but the short of it is that players want to play their game, and many will cheat, even they wouldn't normally do so, if they feel they are being pushed into a corner.
Why spend money on a bot when that same money can buy the cash they need from an ATM?
Because they will eventually need more cash, and the bot is already paid for.
As to the negative impact on payouts - I doubt anybody feels their "tiny" bit of involvement is going to make a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I visited the bot site that was said OUT LOUD in a money house and all i can say is, if EA thinks that by lowering payouts they can sort the problem, they are mistaken....

Going off the way they work they should maybe trying finding a way to block out outside programs from interfearing with the game like most new PC games wont work with any kind of trainer.....

 

[Guest]

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<blockquote><hr>

Because i guess these players dont want to give EA the satifaction of getting more money from them by having to buy simoleans at an ATM.....

[/ QUOTE ]And so, in their completely selfish greed, and desire to "stick it to the man", they are perfectly willing to force the payouts to remain low for everyone else? And in so doing, not only place their accounts at risk, but guarantee the lowered payouts continue in perpetuity?

Sounds like the very sort of people I want OUT of my game!

[/ QUOTE ]
See? This is another problem - somebody speculates about something, somebody expands on that speculation and floats one of their own. Sooner or later someone assumes that speculative argument to be FACT - and starts rounding up the villagers and passing out torches and pitchforks.
Speculation can be a useful tool for debate - but only if it doesn't get out of hand.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Old players who were used to instant success may well feel that way, but new players, unless they hear us complaining about changes have no expectations and should have no issue playing the game at whatever pace is necessary to succeed.

I think in all the controversy players have forgotten to have fun getting to their goal. Look at it this way, the longer it takes to get there the more fun you have on the way. Maybe its like taking a cross country road trip via route 66 or the much faster highway. Sure its faster, but its alot more fun to take the long road.

[/ QUOTE ]

Niki remeber back to not long after beta with the original game. People would come in on 30 day trials, some would stay but most left because they found it to hard to achieve their goals. Most people don't like being roomies, they enjoy it for a while but soon want to work towards their own goals. They, back then when things were much easier than they are here still left in their droves because things looked to hard. How do you think they will see it now?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Old players who were used to instant success may well feel that way, but new players, unless they hear us complaining about changes have no expectations and should have no issue playing the game at whatever pace is necessary to succeed.

I think in all the controversy players have forgotten to have fun getting to their goal. Look at it this way, the longer it takes to get there the more fun you have on the way. Maybe its like taking a cross country road trip via route 66 or the much faster highway. Sure its faster, but its alot more fun to take the long road.

[/ QUOTE ]

No game out there expects you to wait weeks or months to obtain a single goal...and there is a reason for that....

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking of "no other game out there", let's just hope EA doesn't decide to start charging tier fees.

 

[Guest]

Totally not true. I play Toontown, I've played it for years and have reached almost all the goals they have given me. A maxed toon cannot be achieved in days or even weeks even if you are an experienced player like myself. Everything in Toontown is setup to take a long time to achieve. Some things take months or even years to achieve...like collecting all 70 fish GRRRR. I dont play WoW, but from listening to players who do it takes even power players quite some time to reach the upper levels. I suspect most other games are the same way, because once end game is reached what is there to do? TSO is one of the easiest games to reach goals in, maybe too easy if I take all the arguements in this thread into consideration.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I think it should take a new player 6 mo to even buy a piece of land. Why shouldnt they be roomies and move up the social ladder? It should not happen fast thats the point of it being a goal. It would be like me starting Toontown today and expecting to be able to do boss fights tomorrow. We totally need to get past the instant gratification mindset.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ummmm..... didn't I visit you on your lot shortly after EA Land opened?

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

Old players who were used to instant success may well feel that way, but new players, unless they hear us complaining about changes have no expectations and should have no issue playing the game at whatever pace is necessary to succeed.

I think in all the controversy players have forgotten to have fun getting to their goal. Look at it this way, the longer it takes to get there the more fun you have on the way. Maybe its like taking a cross country road trip via route 66 or the much faster highway. Sure its faster, but its alot more fun to take the long road.

[/ QUOTE ]

Niki remeber back to not long after beta with the original game. People would come in on 30 day trials, some would stay but most left because they found it to hard to achieve their goals. Most people don't like being roomies, they enjoy it for a while but soon want to work towards their own goals. They, back then when things were much easier than they are here still left in their droves because things looked to hard. How do you think they will see it now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I do remember, but I recall a significantly higher number of people working together to achieve goals. The ones that left because it was "too hard" probably didnt find any easier games out there and went back to offline sims where they had no competition. Most gamers want a challenge, a game with no challenge is a waste of time. TSO lost its challenge to me so I took a 2 year break, now it has challenge again and I'm back. I just hope it doesnt start to bore me again.

 

[Guest]

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<blockquote><hr>

I think it should take a new player 6 mo to even buy a piece of land. Why shouldnt they be roomies and move up the social ladder? It should not happen fast thats the point of it being a goal. It would be like me starting Toontown today and expecting to be able to do boss fights tomorrow. We totally need to get past the instant gratification mindset.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ummmm..... didn't I visit you on your lot shortly after EA Land opened?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didnt I also visit you on your lot the same day?

 

[jackdoe]

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Totally not true. I play Toontown, I've played it for years and have reached almost all the goals they have given me. A maxed toon cannot be achieved in days or even weeks even if you are an experienced player like myself. Everything in Toontown is setup to take a long time to achieve. Some things take months or even years to achieve...like collecting all 70 fish GRRRR. I dont play WoW, but from listening to players who do it takes even power players quite some time to reach the upper levels. I suspect most other games are the same way, because once end game is reached what is there to do? TSO is one of the easiest games to reach goals in, maybe too easy if I take all the arguements in this thread into consideration.

[/ QUOTE ]

TSO is not about being a high level, its about earning cash to obtain your goals....no cash means no goals and no-one will wait weeks to make a start at those goals...

People play games for some kind of instant gratification, they want to be taken away for rl into a different life and be able to do things like shoot aliens or run a store, and if a game doesnt grab your interest within that few first hours or days , it is just left unplayed on the shelf...

If i was just starting to play EA-Land today with my startup cash of $100 and limited ways to make more cash, i would just think it was a fancy version of msn messenger...no fun to be had unless you like to chat...

 

[jackdoe]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I think it should take a new player 6 mo to even buy a piece of land. Why shouldnt they be roomies and move up the social ladder? It should not happen fast thats the point of it being a goal. It would be like me starting Toontown today and expecting to be able to do boss fights tomorrow. We totally need to get past the instant gratification mindset.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ummmm..... didn't I visit you on your lot shortly after EA Land opened?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didnt I also visit you on your lot the same day?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, 2 wrongs make a right ??

Seems like one set of rules for one and etc etc

 

[Guest]

Seems to me everyone had the same opportunity as I did the first day to buy land super cheap. Just because I chose to and someone else didnt isnt my problem.

 

[Guest]

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Old players who were used to instant success may well feel that way, but new players, unless they hear us complaining about changes have no expectations and should have no issue playing the game at whatever pace is necessary to succeed.

I think in all the controversy players have forgotten to have fun getting to their goal. Look at it this way, the longer it takes to get there the more fun you have on the way. Maybe its like taking a cross country road trip via route 66 or the much faster highway. Sure its faster, but its alot more fun to take the long road.

[/ QUOTE ]

Niki remeber back to not long after beta with the original game. People would come in on 30 day trials, some would stay but most left because they found it to hard to achieve their goals. Most people don't like being roomies, they enjoy it for a while but soon want to work towards their own goals. They, back then when things were much easier than they are here still left in their droves because things looked to hard. How do you think they will see it now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I do remember, but I recall a significantly higher number of people working together to achieve goals. The ones that left because it was "too hard" probably didnt find any easier games out there and went back to offline sims where they had no competition. Most gamers want a challenge, a game with no challenge is a waste of time. TSO lost its challenge to me so I took a 2 year break, now it has challenge again and I'm back. I just hope it doesnt start to bore me again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you want a challenge, make a new sim and start her off from scratch.
Give her no help from your established sims you have from when it was much easier when EA Land first opened. Work towards a goal with things the way they are now. I did it before the latest downturn in payouts, it really opens your eyes.

 

[Guest]

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All MMO games have a main aim , be it a high level to use a certain sword or create guilds to battle other guilds...one of the biggest aims for EA-Land is to earn simoleans to be able to take your gaming experience further, it is not to be patient and wait 6 months to be able to afford a house, people are going to loose interest....when they loose interest EA will loose there custom ......who wants to pay £10 per month for 6 months before they can possibly have enough in game cash to say open a pet store..no-one thats who

[/ QUOTE ]Okay, I understand your point of view here, and it does make sense.

The problem is, even though TSO/EAL is an open game inasfar as there not being a singular goal, Most of the tanglible goals in the game are terminal. Meaning, once you've met that goal, there's nowhere else to go with it. Once you've made enough simoleans to buy everything you want (and can fit in your lot), then what?

The major part of what killed the TSO of old was that anyone whose goals were financial could meet those goals inside of a few months. When the bots were at their worst, a person could "win" the simolean game inside of a month. When the Exploit happened, the time to achieve any possible money goals became less than a week. How much fun are you going to have in the game if you can achieve all of your goals inside of a week?

Eventually, there may be more possible goals in the game. Eventually, there may be more for money-oriented sims who have reached their goals to do. Eventually. But right now, we need to make sure the game has a reasonable level of longevity, that the average player isn't going to "win" the game inside of a month.

With the lowered payouts on single-job objects, it may be harder to achieve one's money-oriented goals. Harder, but not impossible. And it will require abandoning certain established paradigms within the game. In the old game, making jams used to be the fastest way to make money. In the new game, that's not true. At least, not now. Nothing is static in the game anymore. What works today may not work tomorrow. I believe the randomness brings new challenges to the game that we have never had before, and it's going to take getting used to.

And railing against anti-bot measures by bringing more bots online is not the way to overcome this obstacle.

 

[jackdoe]

<blockquote><hr>

Seems to me everyone had the same opportunity as I did the first day to buy land super cheap. Just because I chose to and someone else didnt isnt my problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though they are still sending out the emails that tell people to come back now so you can get a good lot before they all go....yeah right , just hope they all dont go in the month it takes you to save up for it...

 

[Guest]

And before the "Well, what about the new players?" discussion begins, if I recall the only reason land was so cheap was so that we could quickly build up our own properties so that the EA properties could close. Now there are already plenty of money houses, skill houses, houses of EVERY category that there isn't a NEED for them to quickly spring up. Now we're onto the phase where we support each other rather than have EA support us.

 

[Guest]

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As to the negative impact on payouts - I doubt anybody feels their "tiny" bit of involvement is going to make a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]Have you ever seen A Bug's Life?

 

[Guest]

I have done that, more then once actually. When payouts went down in TC3 I made a sim that got a job. She didnt not live anywhere, she did not accept cash or gifts of any kind from anyone. In fact she turned down several offers for money. I only played her when I was bored so thats not alot yet in a couple weeks she earned over 10k as a DJ, I think she got to about level 4. She bought a lot and ultimately built a fine house. Its not so hard as it sounds.

 

[jackdoe]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

All MMO games have a main aim , be it a high level to use a certain sword or create guilds to battle other guilds...one of the biggest aims for EA-Land is to earn simoleans to be able to take your gaming experience further, it is not to be patient and wait 6 months to be able to afford a house, people are going to loose interest....when they loose interest EA will loose there custom ......who wants to pay £10 per month for 6 months before they can possibly have enough in game cash to say open a pet store..no-one thats who

[/ QUOTE ]Okay, I understand your point of view here, and it does make sense.

The problem is, even though TSO/EAL is an open game inasfar as there not being a singular goal, Most of the tanglible goals in the game are terminal. Meaning, once you've met that goal, there's nowhere else to go with it. Once you've made enough simoleans to buy everything you want (and can fit in your lot), then what?

The major part of what killed the TSO of old was that anyone whose goals were financial could meet those goals inside of a few months. When the bots were at their worst, a person could "win" the simolean game inside of a month. When the Exploit happened, the time to achieve any possible money goals became less than a week. How much fun are you going to have in the game if you can achieve all of your goals inside of a week?

Eventually, there may be more possible goals in the game. Eventually, there may be more for money-oriented sims who have reached their goals to do. Eventually. But right now, we need to make sure the game has a reasonable level of longevity, that the average player isn't going to "win" the game inside of a month.

With the lowered payouts on single-job objects, it may be harder to achieve one's money-oriented goals. Harder, but not impossible. And it will require abandoning certain established paradigms within the game. In the old game, making jams used to be the fastest way to make money. In the new game, that's not true. At least, not now. Nothing is static in the game anymore. What works today may not work tomorrow. I believe the randomness brings new challenges to the game that we have never had before, and it's going to take getting used to.

And railing against anti-bot measures by bringing more bots online is not the way to overcome this obstacle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally thank you for a reply that doesnt seem to be attacking the kind of person or player i am lol

I am just going to give up on my argument, i am going to run my shop the best i can and hope the money situation improves...

I love this game, its a good way to pass the time and i have made some good online friends, i will continue to subscribe through all the current and future bugs to help the devs create a game that hopefully will be fun to all who play it......

I just honestly cant see new players coming or staying if they have to wait weeks to get something they really want, people dont want that in a game and they will go find it somewhere else, i can just image a new player going to a money lot and asking how they can get there own house and them being told "wait a few months until you have earned enough cash and then you can have one too".....there response will be along the lines of "ermm they want me to pay for this IM program ??"

I hope i am wrong but after spending most of my young life playing online computer games i have a feeling EA-Land will not be as popular as it deserves to be...

 

[Guest]

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As an aside - is it normal business on these forums for the mods to assail posters with dripping sarcasm and straw man arguments?

[/ QUOTE ]The only straw men being assasinated around here are those constructed by some of the people arguing for increased payouts. I'm dealing strictly at the logical level of the argument:

Premise #1: The job object payouts are too low.
Premise #2: The lowered payouts are due to botting activity in the game.
Conclusion: Bringing more bots online will solve the payout problem and force the increase in payouts.

This is a logically invalid argument.

Premise #1: The job object payouts are too low
Premise #2: The lowered payouts are due to botting activity in the game.
Premise #3: Lowered payouts are driving up number of bots.
Conclusion: Increasing payouts will help eliminate bots.

Is a logically valid argument, but it is not sound, as premise #3 is flawed. Even though the current level of payout may be driving up the number of bots, the number of bots in the game has never been predicated by the level of payout. They exist because they can, and because the amount of payout is never adequate for some people, thus they buy simoleans from botters, which helps reinforce and maintain the botting "industry". Therefore, my original conclusion, "The only way to get rid of botters is to stop buying their products" is valid and sound.

Note: No straw men were harmed in the construction and breakdown of these arguments.

[/ QUOTE ]
Come on, Kat - this is your temper talking, not your brain.

 

[Guest]

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I just honestly cant see new players coming or staying if they have to wait weeks to get something they really want, people dont want that in a game and they will go find it somewhere else, i can just image a new player going to a money lot and asking how they can get there own house and them being told "wait a few months until you have earned enough cash and then you can have one too".....there response will be along the lines of "ermm they want me to pay for this IM program ??"

[/ QUOTE ]When I first joined TSO on December 17th, 2002, that is pretty much the challenge I faced. It took me six months to get together enough resources to buy and fully develop a place of my own. In the meantime, I did my time being a roomie at a top money/skill house (before lot categories came into existence). I skilled up and got good at pizza (this was all before job tracks). It was a long six months, but that goal kept me logging in every day - sometimes for far more hours than would be described as healthy. I wanted my own little place strongly enough to keep me motivated to work my little sim butt off.

The friendships I made during this quest have been invaluable, and I will never forget them. I still remember the name of the first house I roomed at, and the name of the owner and most of my roomies.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

Old players who were used to instant success may well feel that way, but new players, unless they hear us complaining about changes have no expectations and should have no issue playing the game at whatever pace is necessary to succeed.

I think in all the controversy players have forgotten to have fun getting to their goal. Look at it this way, the longer it takes to get there the more fun you have on the way. Maybe its like taking a cross country road trip via route 66 or the much faster highway. Sure its faster, but its alot more fun to take the long road.

[/ QUOTE ]
Me too.

Buuuuuuut......... what's fun for you and me isn't necessarily the case for anybody else.
Didja ever get into the "Free Parking" argument in Monopoly?

 

[Guest]

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<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I think it should take a new player 6 mo to even buy a piece of land. Why shouldnt they be roomies and move up the social ladder? It should not happen fast thats the point of it being a goal. It would be like me starting Toontown today and expecting to be able to do boss fights tomorrow. We totally need to get past the instant gratification mindset.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ummmm..... didn't I visit you on your lot shortly after EA Land opened?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didnt I also visit you on your lot the same day?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep.

Shhhhhh......... I won't tell if you won't.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

I have done that, more then once actually. When payouts went down in TC3 I made a sim that got a job. She didnt not live anywhere, she did not accept cash or gifts of any kind from anyone. In fact she turned down several offers for money. I only played her when I was bored so thats not alot yet in a couple weeks she earned over 10k as a DJ, I think she got to about level 4. She bought a lot and ultimately built a fine house. Its not so hard as it sounds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll tell you what I found.
My sim started with no money and had none coming in as he was not the 1st sim on my account. I took him to a money house with no skills where he was payed $1 for a painting. I then took him to skill for several days. That alone would detour a lot of people away from the game. After 3 days I got him up to about 12 skill points and went back to make some money. I was then making from what I remember was just under $30 a jam. After about 7 days jamming in total I had built up about 6k. Thinking like I believe most newbies would I went and bought some clothes and accessories. 6K almost gone. I went back and skilled some more, skilling now taking much longer to gain each point. After a few days of that I had him to what I think was 16 points. Took him back to jam for about 5 days and got enough to buy a lot. After buying the lot I looked at how much it cost to upsize, how much it cost to build and how much it cost to by furnishings. It's then I decided if I was a newbie, I would most likely say this sucks and give up. Now it would be even worse.