• Hail Guest!
    We're looking for Community Content Contribuitors to Stratics. If you would like to write articles, fan fiction, do guild or shard event recaps, it's simple. Find out how in this thread: Community Contributions
  • Greetings Guest, Having Login Issues? Check this thread!
  • Hail Guest!,
    Please take a moment to read this post reminding you all of the importance of Account Security.
  • Hail Guest!
    Please read the new announcement concerning the upcoming addition to Stratics. You can find the announcement Here!

In Defense Of Lady Amandine...Continue

Faeryl

2011 Winter Deco Contest 1st Place
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Well, since I obviously can't log in, I guess I'll try and figure out all this stuff with the virtues that's been making my head spin for the past few days :)
 

Queen Arya

Rares Fest Host | Atl Sept 2011 & June 2013
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
3
The Ouroboros Family line- The Virtues -Their Meaning - and colors thats the answer

As far as I am concerened the story arcs can continue and Danica should be given a ceremony with a sash at the end of the trial for the amount of time she has spent in jail and for her ablity to hold us all true to the virtues and together

Grrr whats with the log on! nearly two hours now

That house with the info refreshed-it has the history of UO written in books on shelves-problem is It wont let me copy them
Caer Dalbin-Blackrock settlement 1998-I am hoping to find the answers there-I do have a rune in my player run towns book at Toad Town-Now to log on!
 

Faeryl

2011 Winter Deco Contest 1st Place
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
It is also interesting to note that in modern political theory as well as classical ancient political theory, the idea of justice is highly subjective. It is amazingly difficult to 'pin down' just what justice is. Its one of those 'you know it if you see it' type things and has never been totally quantified with law. The very idea that justice is blind is a fallacy. Justice should never be blind, law without compassion is tyranny.
Okay, so Dupre wants to bring Danica to justice for what she did to Reddish. However, since Dupre follows the path of Honour (Truth & Courage), that would mean he's missing Love (as such, Compassion), therefore rendering his idea of Justice blind and tyrannical?
 

Queen Arya

Rares Fest Host | Atl Sept 2011 & June 2013
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
3
But Danica looked at him with the same knowledge in her eyes that is usually seen around Adamu.
That knowledge is what we lack.
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
In theory this is true, he would also have a perverse sense of Justice without Love. He also has no sense of Sacrifice either. Here's more on Dupre:

I had been using Virtues - UOGuide, the Ultima Online encyclopedia, but now I think we need to focus on UO Stratics - The 8 Virtues and
UO Stratics *New* | Virtues
too. UOGuide just has some tables of info, the second Stratics link is missing the RL quotes about the virtue.

Here's a quote from the Honor section:

Nothing is less worthy of honor than an old man who has no other evidence of having lived long except his age
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca on Honor
I think this showed up in the official EM Fiction too: The Awakening - Act 5, Part 2 | Mythic Entertainment | Ultima Online
...He’d left too many men, elves, and gargoyles dead in the final struggle to rid them of the foul beast Exodus…and despite Sacrifice being a virtue, he wondered if it hadn’t taken more than its share this time. And why did it seem that those younger, faster, and stronger than he were so oft chosen while Sacrifice had merely passed him by all these years? Or maybe these others in some way had acted as a shield for him, preserving his existence by purchasing it with their own. Or perhaps his vow of Honor to defeat Minax was all that held Sacrifice at bay. He shook his head as he passed through the gates of the city of Honor, but he couldn’t shake off his uncertainty. The events at the moongate had only served to reinforce his unsteadiness; He’d intended to immediately return to Felucca and his hunt for Minax, but if the moongates were corrupted in such a way, could it possibly be an infection like the gargoyles were even now still facing in Ter Mur? And if so, would it spread to the rest of Gilforn’s gates, or even to those temporary ones conjured by so many mages of the realm? Give me a beast, a monster, a man who I can fight with a sword and shield, and I’ll cause them to quake, he thought…but I have no recourse against an enemy I can’t face... He looked over the copy of the journal he’d found…and he wondered if he hadn’t been wrong about the man who had once so often held court with his Lord.
...It was times like these, where even in victory he felt defeated, that he sought refuge in his dedication to Honor and everything it encompassed. So long as he kept true to his Honor, he would never lose his path.
This is from Dupre's legend:
UO Stratics *New* | Honor: Dupré and the Gargoyles (Part 8 of 10)
, in which he helped saveHumans by aiding Gargoyles.
“You have been told by your Captain that Lord British is a tyrant. Well then, it is no dishonor to take up arms against tyranny, if that is truly what you believe. However, your people do not extract oaths of fealty as mine do, and I have often heard your Captain say that you follow him at the call of your reason and of your own sense of what is right, which is the Gargoyle way. Now your hearts and minds have moved you to ask whether the fight today is Honorable. Perhaps the question itself is its own answer.”
Dupre has broken his own rule by coming back to destroy Exodus. Yes, he was destined to help defeat Exodus, but there was little Honor in it.
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
But Danica looked at him with the same knowledge in her eyes that is usually seen around Adamu.
That knowledge is what we lack.
Specifically Addie. Does anyone have more information on Addie's whereabouts when Danica teamed up with her sister, my guess is, the fiction before Amandine Goes Shopping or the event log?
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Also what about Hethe, the creepy knight that seemed to know Dupre? We never really got to talk to him. I mean without wanting to string him up
Sir Hethe Idem. He showed up once before when we were killing bears (
UO Stratics *New* | [News] The Hunt Is On
). and also at the start of this mess when the bridge to Blackthorn's Castle was destroyed.
UO Stratics *New* | [News] A Rebellion In Britain!
.
This from before the bears
The Hall of the Silver Serpent was buzzing with activity. The Knights had gathered at the request of Lady Amandine and were awaiting her presence when an unknown voice called out from the back of the Hall.

“The wolves of Britannia, assembled to hunt a bear…”

Our eyes turned to regard the stranger, and, as he strode swiftly across the Hall, he began to tell us of when he had killed his first bear. Having won the bear in a tournament, he had set it free so he could hunt and kill it. One could see the twisted glee in his eyes as he recounted the joy of seeing a predator’s eyes turn to eyes of fear. The topic abruptly changed as the man asked about Lady Amandine, telling us, with a hint of sarcasm, that it was “a pity her calling was to lead Knights….Instead of….Other things.” The man finally introduced himself as Sir Hethe Idem, from a new Order of Knights known as the Poor Fellowship of the Chamber of Virtue. He spoke of how this Fellowship was dedicated to maintaining unity in the realm, that it was their duty to lead the rest. When asked about the abduction of Yusef Ad-Din and Theresa, he denied having anything to do with it, stating that he would never resort to a tactic such as kidnapping. He then told us that the Fellowship is based in the Chamber of Virtue, and if we wished to experience true unity, worth and trust, then we may seek them out. “You will be hearing from us again… Good luck… Hunting bears…” With that last comment he departed.
After wiping out the raiders, this is the speech he gave us:
As night began to creep up around us, some of the Knights returned to the House of Virtues, only to find Sir Idem, cheerfully wiping blood of his halberd. He gave us one last speech before departing for the final time that night.

“And now, I hope you all see. What happens when there is pure freedom but no order? When there is no fear to keep the people in line. The Virtues are nice. They bind us, and by us I do not mean all the people but US, the nobility, the elite, together. But, for the peasants, for the masses, the Virtues are useless. If they think they have power over themselves, they will use it. We need to remind them just how powerless they are. Perhaps one day you will all be worthy to join the Fellowship… For now, the Crux Ansata will have to do for you…”
Is the Ouroboros related to the Fellowship?
 

Alexander of ATL.

Rares Fest Host | Atl June 2013
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Hmm.... Well here is my thought on the Honor gate situation. All the Virtue gates are connected, all holding power, all of them is our transportation between shrines. When one is broken, the connection is weakened. Also, Honor Shrine was the closest shrine, or most popular, shrine near Exodus. He knew we had to get out of there fast so he planted another trap just incase he fell. He broke the Honor gate to cause unbalance in the other Shrines.

As the "Book of Virtues" says, no other virtue is greater than the other, they are all equal. When one is corrupted, they all are weakened. Exodus isnt dead, I dont think he is dead, i think he is weakened and he fled to a hideout.

(I mainly think Exodus isnt dead because this story arc doesn't end till October-November, and its June.)

I believe... that if Exodus does return... he is gonna try and corrupt all the Shrines. He saw us Knights pay homage to the Shrines for victory, he planted this trap incase the Virtues were on our side. He knew... he had to corrupt one if he falls. IF... he returns... im pretty sure he will target the other shrines. We CANNOT let this happen, the Virtues were on our side in this battle, Exodus knows.... if all the Virtues are gone, corrupted, they will no longer aid us, but could possible aid him. As a previous servant to Exodus.... I know what he can do if he grows to full power. We MUST protect these Shrines from being corrupted.
 

Queen Arya

Rares Fest Host | Atl Sept 2011 & June 2013
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
3
I doubt Danica has the same morals as Hethe... or at least I have not seen that sort of demeanor coming from her now or prior to her sisters ordeal
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Hmm.... Well here is my thought on the Honor gate situation. All the Virtue gates are connected, all holding power, all of them is our transportation between shrines. When one is broken, the connection is weakened. Also, Honor Shrine was the closest shrine, or most popular, shrine near Exodus. He knew we had to get out of there fast so he planted another trap just incase he fell. He broke the Honor gate to cause unbalance in the other Shrines.
Good call. It was a contingency plan, Dupre said this after it was over. Dupre didn't break the honor gate, Exodus broke the Honor gate, and in a sense, Dupre broke in the process? When Adamu said that if Honor broke so does the world, this means he stated it from a prophetic position (ie, Honor is the first in a long-chain of events), instead of stating this from a keystone position (honor is the most important). Dupre, on the other hand, believes that Honor is the most important.

More on Amandine's trial, from the story of Janna:
“There will be no lynchings here!” the Druid proclaimed. “I gave you a choice yesterday to put this creature to death lawfully, but you would have your show-trial, and so you submitted it to Justice. Now it belongs to Justice indeed, and if it is in any wise harmed in contravention of my word, the full weight of the law shall fall upon this place. Worse, the blessings of Virtue shall be forfeited.”
Janna was a druid (like a judge). She went around judging folks. When a town at war captured a Goblin King and wanted to kill it, she said go for it and it'd be lawful death. But they begged for a trial to mock the king, and the court found the goblin to be innocent of any wrong doing (because war against tyranny was and is a prescribed virtue, despite the side one is on). After Janna released the Goblin, the Goblin attacked her. She then killed it lawfully. Amandine, is being held to the King's Law. But we know that virtue, when codified into law, is perverse (Blackthorn). Are we trying her according to law, or to virtue? If we try her by law, then she is dead. If we try her by virtue, then she can live.
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I doubt Danica has the same morals as Hethe... or at least I have not seen that sort of demeanor coming from her now or prior to her sisters ordeal
Agreed, Hethe is an odd one. Just the dichotomy is what struck me.
 

Faeryl

2011 Winter Deco Contest 1st Place
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
If my head wasn't spinning enough before... It's really spinning now o_O
 

Queen Arya

Rares Fest Host | Atl Sept 2011 & June 2013
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
3
Please Ovenbird ... although I enjoy the history, but i am getting fustrated. Lady Danica is innocent.
Agree Faeryl-wish I had one of your puppies to break up the monotony of reserching
Bennu, If we are ever able to log in nows the time for some kind of interaction in game. I feel like we are beating a dead horse here?
 

Faeryl

2011 Winter Deco Contest 1st Place
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Agree Faeryl-wish I had one of your puppies to break up the monotony of reserching
They tend to make it even harder to focus... You just kinda find yourself turning around to watch them instead of focusing on the task at hand. Of course I got a cute pic that I otherwise would have missed if I hadn't turned around!
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Please Ovenbird ... although I enjoy the history, but i am getting fustrated. Lady Danica is innocent.
Agree Faeryl-wish I had one of your puppies to break up the monotony of reserching
Bennu, If we are ever able to log in nows the time for some kind of interaction in game. I feel like we are beating a dead horse here?
Agreed, and completley fair. Most if not all the lore is new to me, I'm forgetting not everything is connected.
 

Bennu

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Good call. It was a contingency plan, Dupre said this after it was over. Dupre didn't break the honor gate, Exodus broke the Honor gate, and in a sense, Dupre broke in the process? When Adamu said that if Honor broke so does the world, this means he stated it from a prophetic position (ie, Honor is the first in a long-chain of events), instead of stating this from a keystone position (honor is the most important). Dupre, on the other hand, believes that Honor is the most important.

More on Amandine's trial, from the story of Janna:

Janna was a druid (like a judge). She went around judging folks. When a town at war captured a Goblin King and wanted to kill it, she said go for it and it'd be lawful death. But they begged for a trial to mock the king, and the court found the goblin to be innocent of any wrong doing (because war against tyranny was and is a prescribed virtue, despite the side one is on). After Janna released the Goblin, the Goblin attacked her. She then killed it lawfully. Amandine, is being held to the King's Law. But we know that virtue, when codified into law, is perverse (Blackthorn). Are we trying her according to law, or to virtue? If we try her by law, then she is dead. If we try her by virtue, then she can live.
This is some of the best logic so far in these two threads... except for that last part.

IMO, and this is OOC and non-binding... like I said it is upto you... If *I* were the defense I would be arguing the case as was stated in the prior thread, that murder is not murder when committed by a military commander in a land under martial law. It *MAY* have been immoral (Can it be Just and Immoral at the same time... ah ha!?) but was it illegal? THIS is the question that Dupre wants the answer to. "Illegal? Immoral? Unjust?"

Dupre is loved by the people, and as such wouldn't side with the 'nobility' without question. An act such as that committed by Danica in Britain on the night in question would/has riled up the people who would hold it up as an example of tyranny and hold danica as a tyrant...

It is for these reasons we need a trial, more to answer the question and satisfy the people than to punish.
 

Bennu

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Bennu, If we are ever able to log in nows the time for some kind of interaction in game. I feel like we are beating a dead horse here?
Today is my birthday, Im busy with family stuff tonight.

But.

We will get some more info and something done this week. I need to take a look at the live arc stuff to make sure I haven't missed a requirement for the week or anything.
 

Queen Arya

Rares Fest Host | Atl Sept 2011 & June 2013
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
3
Phew! Then Prepare for one terrific defense!

Happy Birthday! Let them eat cake! (how many Toad Candles on that cake? lmao)
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Today is my birthday, Im busy with family stuff tonight.

But.

We will get some more info and something done this week. I need to take a look at the live arc stuff to make sure I haven't missed a requirement for the week or anything.
Happy birthday!

This is some of the best logic so far in these two threads... except for that last part.

If *I* were the defense I would be arguing the case as was stated in the prior thread, that murder is not murder when committed by a military commander in a land under martial law. It *MAY* have been immoral (Can it be Just and Immoral at the same time... ah ha!?) but was it illegal? THIS is the question that Dupre wants the answer to. "Illegal? Immoral? Unjust?"

Dupre is loved by the people, and as such wouldn't side with the 'nobility' without question. An act such as that committed by Danica in Britain on the night in question would/has riled up the people who would hold it up as an example of tyranny and hold danica as a tyrant...

It is for these reasons we need a trial, more to answer the question and satisfy the people than to punish.

I should have known better than to end on an abstraction, doh! a weak one at that. Thanks for getting us back on track!
 

Queen Arya

Rares Fest Host | Atl Sept 2011 & June 2013
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
3
Faeryl- I found those books in Caer Dalbins house-it has these answers-

In what ways does Justice and Honor clash?:
Justice and honor clash when there is no love present (this came from the tomb of love quest)

Sherry was about to speak when things shifted:
and If Sherry's story is what we are looking for here- Sherry was present when Lord British and Lord Blackthorn were about to have a game of chess. Right before Sherry was to speak a tear in the atmosphere appeared and it was the Time Lord.
What scares me here is that the Time Lord states, in order to put the shards back together and make the realm whole again, anyone born after the shattering will parish. If this is whats making the nobles snobish and the people to revolt the whole thing makes sense now. There thousands of pieces of the shard and other worlds with the same people in it
Lord British knew this and was put to task to errect shrines of the virtues, Lord Blackthorn overheard this conversation and he created the Chaos shrine and the anti virtues
 

EMTiberies

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
If you want excellent examples of how the Virtues can conflict without one side being clearly correct, you may want to try and dig up the tarot card game that began Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar. In this game the player was presented with various Virtue-based moral dilemmas, and the result determined your starting profession when your character was transferred from Earth to Sosaria.

Example: You are a diplomat. At a diplomatic party, a diplomat from a rival country insults your country. Do you Justly demand an apology, or Valiantly bear the slurs? No right or wrong answer, just which do you go with? It's a personality test of sorts.

I'm positive there was a Honor vs Justice one in there but I don't recall it.

If you wish to look up this card game (I failed but I only tried for 2 minutes), I would suggest that you can safely assume that your characters can reasonably be familiar with it in-character, as part of the myth-history of Sosaria and Britannia.
 

Queen Arya

Rares Fest Host | Atl Sept 2011 & June 2013
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
3
OK Tiberies are you going to be the prosecution and Bennu the defense? A Possible witness or one of the missing Ouroboros line? Sherry the mouse would be a neat roll to play in this too

I just want to make the opening statement for the Defense after the prosecution does theirs. Maybe we can make the players line up in two seperate lines to make opening arguments. lets see set aside 3 hours for this-lmao
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Faeryl- I found those books in Caer Dalbins house-it has these answers-
In what ways does Justice and Honor clash?:
Justice and honor clash when there is no love present (this came from the tomb of love quest)
Is Caer a player? In this case, the fault would come from Amandine losing her love, or Dupre not having any to begin within.

Lord British knew this and was put to task to errect shrines of the virtues, Lord Blackthorn overheard this conversation and he created the Chaos shrine and the anti virtues
So did British erect Virtue shrines to help prevent the shards from crumbling further? Or did he do it to promote unity, so that when the shards were combined again, people's lives would be preserved?

If you want excellent examples of how the Virtues can conflict without one side being clearly correct, you may want to try and dig up the tarot card game that began Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar..
I found this video:

Justice vs. Honor is the second choice: Thou hast sworn to do they lord's bidding in all. He covets a piece of land and orders the owners removed. Dost thou A) serve Justice refusing to act, thus being disgraced, or B) Honor thine path and unfairly evict the landowner?
We can see Justice as being outside, or associated but separated from the King's Law, and how Honor keeps one in touch with the law. To apply this to the trial, Amandine is closely associated (but not tied) to the law, and is capable of acting in association of the law, whereas Dupre is the one actually trying to uphold the law.

EDIT
The combination of Amandine and her sister (keep forgetting the name) gives Amandine courage and Valor, so in a way she should be able to do both things: honor the law and be Just. If it weren't for the instability that this requires it would mean she's a great leader.

EDIT
Not that she isn't a great leader, she is.
 

Alexander of ATL.

Rares Fest Host | Atl June 2013
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Happy Birthday Lord EM Bennu!!!!! Check the Mailbox at the EM Rewards Hall in about one hour!! :)
 

Queen Arya

Rares Fest Host | Atl Sept 2011 & June 2013
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
3
Ovenbird- Located in Toad Town in the monument house errected for our Banner are two books of player run town runes. pick the Blackrock settelment book- House on the beach (open to public) on the 3rd floor is an extensive library. (see me in game I will bring you)
Lady Danica's sisters name is Charlotte.
I believe under martial law Lady Danica is protected. Dupre's honor is broken (why I believe he is always so heavy in his cups)
Dupre shows up what nearly over a year later (After Queen Dawns death) and to show face he inprisoned Lady Danica.
The defense needs to put the blame somewhere else. Like a child to take the attention off their boo boo, so you get out a distraction.

BTW Mesanna heres a neat idea for the next server disater, how about dispensing asprin or Liquor. roflmao
 

Alexander of ATL.

Rares Fest Host | Atl June 2013
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Okay Bennu... I just put your gift from Toad Town in the mailbox at the EM Rewards Hall. Hope you like it and have a Great Birthday!!
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Thanks for the instructions: I got to the house, and on the bookshelf in the south-east of the library their's a book called "Justice." It's a great description One thing it said was that Justice is the one universal truth, could help.
The defense needs to put the blame somewhere else. Like a child to take the attention off their boo boo, so you get out a distraction.
We do need to shift blame. If we blame it on the Ouroboros murders of her friends then she is in conflict of interest to her duties as head of the Guard. I think we need to prove that the two are tied, Nardello terrorism and the Ouroboros plot, and that Amandine, while maybe a bit more brutal, wasn't acting selfishly out of anger when she killed Reddish. We have the legal justification for the killing of Nardello (Martial Law) down pretty tight.

And maybe we can all get Jaanna's Hangover Cures?
 

Queen Arya

Rares Fest Host | Atl Sept 2011 & June 2013
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
3
I am still thinking Nardello was not the only killing the Ourboros family line-anyone could have planted the peppers to make us think it was him-remember the clues (proof) were eaten-roflmao
Why make them eatable?- why leave the rings? because someone does not think they are important or not needed any longer
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I'll stop doing this soon, I swear, but this is important. From Dupre's return (
UO Stratics *New* | The Awakening – Act IV Part 2
), right as he takes the upper hand against the woman he is fight:
“If you know where she is, tell me, and I will serve the virtue of Compassion over Justice today. If you don’t, then I hope your last words are worth it.”

The woman glared daggers at him, a bloody mouthed smile playing across her lips that was devoid of anything resembling warmth as she coughed out her answer. “She’s beyond your reach, Knight-Errant. And she’s beyond your power too. Your little kingdom is crumbling at the seams and we’ll be there to pick up the pieces when…”
This happened the day
UO Stratics *New* | [News] Murders and Mysteries
came out, meaning this happened after the capture of Tresha and the first showdown with Jimmy.
So 1) who is he looking for? Tresha?
2) This is so close to what Amandine did, we should think about it for the case. Amandine could have done the same exact thing, she was already aware of Nardello's bands whereabouts.
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I am still thinking Nardello was not the only killing the Ourboros family line-anyone could have planted the peppers to make us think it was him-remember the clues (proof) were eaten-roflmao
Why make them eatable?- why leave the rings? because someone does not think they are important or not needed any longer
Both of those things. It's anarchistic to leave symbols of an order up to chance. The peppers were a 'taste' of whats to come?
Where you in agreement that Nardello was set-up, or that the murder of Serian and Mikhael spurred Nardello on?
 

Queen Arya

Rares Fest Host | Atl Sept 2011 & June 2013
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
UNLEASHED
Awards
3
Well we actually do not know how far back this goes. I mean how far back Nobles were being killed due to being in an Ouroboros line

And I did say that in an earlier post-What Dupre did was the same thing Danica did-There was No lord Dupre when Reddish was questioned and ultimately died.
Peppers-you dont think they are a clue too? Was some Nobles family in the Produce market?

No difference if Nardello was set up or not-I was going to make sure he wasn't going to be around any longer-due to his first attack on us- when I tell you 30 mins to get back to my original body-that was maddening
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Well we actually do not know how far back this goes. I mean how far back Nobles were being killed due to being in an Ouroboros line

And I did say that in an earlier post-What Dupre did was the same thing Danica did-There was No lord Dupre when Reddish was questioned and ultimately died.
Peppers-you dont think they are a clue too? Was some Nobles family in the Produce market?

No difference if Nardello was set up or not-I was going to make sure he wasn't going to be around any longer-due to his first attack on us- when I tell you 30 mins to get back to my original body-that was maddening
As for not knowing about other murders, Tthat's true we don't, but as they're people of importance I would think we'd hear about it.

Forgive me for re-quoting, I remembered it from somewhere and it was probably you. I meant the timing of events went like this: we skirmished with Nardello, captured Tresha. Dupre shows up and meets with Sherry in Ilshenar. Nardello attacks and kills during this time. Dupre heads to Trammel and is at least in-country when Amandine kills Reddish. He cleaned up the blood, so he said. He releases Tresha and jails Amandine. Amandine may not know of the battle Dupre fought, and Dupre may not know what happened that night with Amandine. If he doesn't, it'll be important to bring this comparison to light, as it will help him understand it at least.

I agree Nardello deserved the axe. Wholeheartedly. I remember watching people scramble afterwards, I got lucky and kept dying at the back before I could get close enough to hit him.
 

Faeryl

2011 Winter Deco Contest 1st Place
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I'll stop doing this soon, I swear, but this is important. From Dupre's return (
UO Stratics *New* | The Awakening – Act IV Part 2), right as he takes the upper hand against the woman he is fight:

So 1) who is he looking for? Tresha?
2) This is so close to what Amandine did, we should think about it for the case. Amandine could have done the same exact thing, she was already aware of Nardello's bands whereabouts.
1. I assume he was actually looking for Minax, based on a line in part 2 of Act V:

He shook his head as he passed through the gates of the city of Honor, but he couldn’t shake off his uncertainty. The events at the moongate had only served to reinforce his unsteadiness; He’d intended to immediately return to Felucca and his hunt for Minax, but if the moongates were corrupted in such a way, could it possibly be an infection like the gargoyles were even now still facing in Ter Mur?
2. Yes, there do seem to be some parallels between the two.

I am still thinking Nardello was not the only killing the Ourboros family line-anyone could have planted the peppers to make us think it was him-remember the clues (proof) were eaten-roflmao
Why make them eatable?- why leave the rings? because someone does not think they are important or not needed any longer
Frankly, unless I'm given more than just theories and speculation, I'm going to continue to assume that Nardello committed all the murders. Especially since he confessed to it before he died. Also, there's currently no evidence to point to anyone else's possible involvement either. It seems like you guys are trying to make an issue where there is none instead of focusing on those that require our attention now...
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
1. I assume he was actually looking for Minax, based on a line in part 2 of Act V.
I know, I know, but. Forgive if these has been mentioned.
"The climax was the devastation of 2111, Minax's greatest triumph, when ancient civilizations born of love and beauty, wisdom and reason, turned on one another in hatred and destroyed most of the very earth that had nurtured them. If it were not for the time doors, we would not be here now. Only the ability to move in time enabled any living thing to survive..." -- from the writings of Lord British
I can see Nardelo+Tresha turning into a Minax+Mondain.

This is more for me so I don't double up on things in the future, but perhaps it'll help for the trial:

Motive for Tresha's politcal action: Anarchy. Driven by Blackthorn's Valor.
Motive for Nardello's political action: 1) Anarchy 2) love of his girlfriend. Driven by Sacrifice.
Motive for Nardello's murders: motive unknown, perhaps more Anarchy, perhaps reactionary, perhaps for Love.
Motive for Reddish: Stay true to the movement, don't rat out a friend. Blackthorn's Honor, Valor.
Motive for Amandine: 1) Defend the land from terrorism 2) gain information to hunt down a known killer 3) reaction to death of Ouroboros members that may have raised the threat he poses to society (the rings have a perceived power). 4) Could have been self defense. Driven by a sense of Justice, also Valor, which makes her Proud as well.
Motive for Dupre to Jail Amandine: Define what is Just, Immoral, Legal. Driven by Honor.

Crimes committed by Tresha: Disseminating anarchistic propaganda, associating/plotting with a known terrorist group to blow up certain buildings.
Crimes committed by Nardello: Resisting arrest, the deaths of countless knights, terrorist action, four murders.
Crimes committed by Amandine: possible the unlawful death of Reddish without a trial.

Key Witnesses and Testimony:
- Amandine (what happened the night of the murder, her connection to the Ouroboros, the information she had in concern with the movements of Tresha's group)
- Sherry (her reason for calling the meeting)
- Dupre (his testimony about the crime scene, his reasons for jailing Amandine, the reason for his return. The release of Tresha)
- Adamu Wellings (anything else about the Ouroboros line, his history with the group)
- Sir Hethe Idem (around since the beginning of the Arc, showed up with Dupre).
- Tresha - don't know if this is possible

Our position:
Amandine killed Reddish Justly, although it might have been without Honor (if unprovoked), under the rules of Martial Law. Testimony will prove this. Nardello became extremely powerful when he started knocking off Ouroboros members instead of just the Crux, and posed a larger threat to society. His death was warranted, and provoked. Amandine should be returned to her position.
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Another possible name for our Ourboros list. I read in Crux Ansata Report 9/30/11 | Stratics Forums that Amandine was born to Tristan and Eleanor Adhara, and she was a twin with Charlotte. There's still a first-born with twins (I'm an identical first-born twin myself) but for the sake of the story this might not be recognized.
 

Faeryl

2011 Winter Deco Contest 1st Place
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Another possible name for our Ourboros list. I read in Crux Ansata Report 9/30/11 | Stratics Forums that Amandine was born to Tristan and Eleanor Adhara, and she was a twin with Charlotte. There's still a first-born with twins (I'm an identical first-born twin myself) but for the sake of the story this might not be recognized.
I completely forgot I even wrote that... Hah.

Just curious though, where did you hear/read that they were twins? I know that they were obviously sisters, but I don't remember anything about twins.
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
I completely forgot I even wrote that... Hah.

Just curious though, where did you hear/read that they were twins? I know that they were obviously sisters, but I don't remember anything about twins.
Perhaps I went to literal with it, but the line "The tome spoke of how a girl would be born, the darker half of a pair" made me think of it. I assumed if Danica and Charlotte had an age gap between them it might have played into the story. But then, there I go assuming again haha.
 

Bennu

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
OvenBird, I am impressed with your dramatic ability to grasp onto my subtlety and get information out of posts that have long since been forgotten :)

Charlotte and Danica were indeed twins, and that is quite possibly the only time I mentioned it. :)
 

Faeryl

2011 Winter Deco Contest 1st Place
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
OvenBird, I am impressed with your dramatic ability to grasp onto my subtlety and get information out of posts that have long since been forgotten :)

Charlotte and Danica were indeed twins, and that is quite possibly the only time I mentioned it. :)
Definitely impressive. I never caught onto that back when I first saw it! Then again, I freely admit that subtlety has never really been a strong point for me. I prefer being blunt. :)

Looking back now though... It does make sense, and seems pretty obvious given the wording.
 

OvenBird

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Charlotte and Danica were indeed twins, and that is quite possibly the only time I mentioned it. :)
Thanks guys! Now here's where I muddy the waters. In that write-up it says the Crux had to visit a number of folks: Selcius the Astronomer, Claudia's cave, Flint and Christine, Cromwell, and the Serpent's Cross. Since two of those on the list have rings, any chance Selcius or Flint and Christine have one?
 

Faeryl

2011 Winter Deco Contest 1st Place
Alumni
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Thanks guys! Now here's where I muddy the waters. In that write-up it says the Crux had to visit a number of folks: Selcius the Astronomer, Claudia's cave, Flint and Christine, Cromwell, and the Serpent's Cross. Since two of those on the list have rings, any chance Selcius or Flint and Christine have one?
Well, Selcius has never been anything other than an oracle to talk to during certain missions and such, and I believe Flint and Christine were players, so I don't think any of them would have rings.

Speaking of Flint and Christine, I think Bella's note is still sitting there Bennu :)
 

Barok

Grand Inquisitor
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Something else to think about: If a Time Lord gave out the rings, there may actually be only one. It's timeline might just wrap around on itself in multiple loops.
 
Top