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In concept - Virtue vs Vice

Kyronix

UO Designer
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Please rethink this stupid idea I can list a billion reasons why you should not change but it's not like your listening to players who actually pvp anyways....

And anyone who supports this change and actually pvps please go take a walk south of Moonglow and look at that base these developers made for CoM.... That is the caliber of creativity we will have on a system that replaces factions.
We are ready to listen to whatever feedback you have. As I said in the other post, this is In Concept at this point. Whatever reasons you don't like, please by all means list them. That's what we are here for, to read your feedback.
 
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The3rdAuditore

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
No the most recent attempt to fix faction artifacts was not silver bud it was adding a life span to each item you get...
& who says if you want to PvP you have to farm silver? See here we go again Kyronix your speaking not as a faction player but as someone who it almost totally clueless about faction...
Especially this "Over time there have been a series of attempts to fix that, the most recent the inclusion of faction silver.".... c'mon and your the guy heading this up?

Faction silver is not a problem at all and I don't hear ANYONE and I mean ANYONE at all crying about faction silver of all things.
It's part of factions... This is exactly what I am talking about, where are you getting your information from? I have PvP'd on every shard since the dawn of UO & I must tell you no one crys about faction silver....
If anything people can just go buy the silver of a vendor someplace it seriously is no big deal and never has been so please explain how it is that some expert pvper such as yourself can know so little about factions and pvp in general?

And the only real question I have for you is why are you removing 14 years of history from the game rather then just fixing the current system like all the players who PvP have asked you to do?
Your talking about Color wars from free shards now....
 
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Promathia

Social Distancing Since '97
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No the most recent attempt to fix faction artifacts was not silver bud it was adding a life span to each item you get...
& who says if you want to PvP you have to farm silver? See here we go again Kyronix your speaking not as a faction player but as someone who it almost totally clueless about faction...
Especially this "Over time there have been a series of attempts to fix that, the most recent the inclusion of faction silver.".... c'mon and your the guy heading this up?

Faction silver is not a problem at all and I don't hear ANYONE and I mean ANYONE at all crying about faction silver of all things.
It's part of factions... This is exactly what I am talking about, where are you getting your information from? I have PvP'd on every shard since the dawn of UO & I must tell you no one crys about faction silver....
If anything people can just go buy the silver of a vendor someplace it seriously is no big deal and never has been so please explain how it is that some expert pvper such as yourself can know so little about factions and pvp in general?
Uh what? A rank 1 person has to pay about 40k for ONE artifact. That + having to do it every month is what killed people playing multiple servers. Silver IS the problem. Having to replace an artifact after a month is one thing, but having to pay that much silver over and over? No pvper wants to go farm silver.

The silver increase was brought in WITH the lifespans. That is what he is referencing btw.
 

The3rdAuditore

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
Uh what? A rank 1 person has to pay about 40k for ONE artifact. That + having to do it every month is what killed people playing multiple servers. Silver IS the problem. Having to replace an artifact after a month is one thing, but having to pay that much silver over and over? No pvper wants to go farm silver.

The silver increase was brought in WITH the lifespans. That is what he is referencing btw.
Rank 1 pays 2k then 4k for the basics.. if you want better gear you go out and fight for ranks its that simple, there is a goal...
Commanding lord pays 5k for mace and shields servants pay 40k so you need to get rank first plain and simple.

And Kyronix I invite you to come play with me in factions on Siege before you go making any changes like this because you are going to screw the game up & you could quite possibly kill off pvp in EA UO shards...
 
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Viper09

Grand Poobah
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Stratics Legend
No the most recent attempt to fix faction artifacts was not silver bud it was adding a life span to each item you get...
& who says if you want to PvP you have to farm silver? See here we go again Kyronix your speaking not as a faction player but as someone who it almost totally clueless about faction...
Especially this "Over time there have been a series of attempts to fix that, the most recent the inclusion of faction silver.".... c'mon and your the guy heading this up?

Faction silver is not a problem at all and I don't hear ANYONE and I mean ANYONE at all crying about faction silver of all things.
It's part of factions... This is exactly what I am talking about, where are you getting your information from? I have PvP'd on every shard since the dawn of UO & I must tell you no one crys about faction silver....
If anything people can just go buy the silver of a vendor someplace it seriously is no big deal and never has been so please explain how it is that some expert pvper such as yourself can know so little about factions and pvp in general?

And the only real question I have for you is why are you removing 14 years of history from the game rather then just fixing the current system like all the players who PvP have asked you to do?
Your talking about Color wars from free shards now....
Kryonix is not saying that the faction system is being removed, hence his repeated comment that this is in concept. As far as I see it, factions is as dead as a doornail, something that they have been trying to fix for years and years with no success. But if you believe so much that factions can indeed be fixed, why not pass on some ideas rather than ranting, raving, and accusing?
 

Promathia

Social Distancing Since '97
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Here is my take on things:

Factions
+ Mounts you can rez yourself
+ Orange to another side, providing easier access to pvp
+ Artifacts to make suits easier to build
+ Dont like fights over cities/sigils? Dont have to go
+ Resource vendors
+ Faction only consumables
+ Cant be crosshealed by members out of factions

+/- Stat loss (One aspect it prevents stalemates, on the other it promotes being on blues)
+/- Thieves have a purpose (But that purpose has lost ALOT of its meaning)
+/- Four teams (Heavy pop shards will see MAYBE 3-4 get used. Lower pop shards see 1-2 or none at all used)

- No reward for actually owning towns/participating
- Deters people from being on Reds
- Artifacts get used by people who dont even participate
- Having to find a fight
- Only use for Silver is absurd prices which deter crosshard pvpers
- Lorewise, factions don't make sense anymore (Shadowlords dead, Minax gone)
- Faction bases are EXTREMELY buggy (SL base you can cast through many of the walls/tiles cant be seen, TB Base is guardzones throughout, all bases prevent open fights and promote choke points)
- Artifacts cost way too much silver - Deters people from having pvpers on multiple shards

vs

Vice/Virtue
+ Mounts you can rez yourself
+ Orange to another side, providing easier access to pvp
+ Artifacts to make suits easier to build
+ Rewards for winning your battles
+ Artifacts only used by people who participate
+ System tells YOU when there is a fight
+ Dont like the shrine fights? Dont have to go
+ Earn buffs by winning shrine battles
+ Resource vendors
+ Consumables from factions carry over
+ Cant be crosshealed by members out of Vice/Virtue
+ Lorewise, makes sense (Chaos/Order lorewise doesn't. Which is why you see the change of names)
+ No more buggy bases/no base fighting. Instead of fighting over bases/sigils, you fight over shrines.

+/- Wounded (Prevents stalemates, doesn't scare people into only playing blues, but wounded players will still be as powerful offense wise)
+/- Only 2 teams (IF they remove the traitor debuff, perhaps this will encourage MORE Reds)
+/- New uses for Silver (Still in concept)

- Being "forced" by the traitor debuff into pvping with people outside of your guild
- The buffs earned by shrine fights needs to be explained
- No defined use for thieves
 
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Orgional Farimir

Lore Keeper
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Instead of fighting at the shrines let's remove all champ spawns from T2A except oaks and have these battle fields in Fel T2A.


Also more than 2 sides.
 

Lythos-

Lore Master
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Stratics Legend
Kryonix is not saying that the faction system is being removed, hence his repeated comment that this is in concept. As far as I see it, factions is as dead as a doornail, something that they have been trying to fix for years and years with no success. But if you believe so much that factions can indeed be fixed, why not pass on some ideas rather than ranting, raving, and accusing?
Actually this is in the 1st post.

What will happen to the current faction system?
1. All aspects of the current faction system will be removed.

But you and Solus are 100% correct. The intended faction system of years ago is completely dead. It has been for some number of years now. Nobody hosts base fights (except for the SL base choke point fight) or fights around towns. It's all about putting people in stat for bragging rights and to make the fight end quicker.
 

Lythos-

Lore Master
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Stratics Legend
Instead of fighting at the shrines let's remove all champ spawns from T2A except oaks and have these battle fields in Fel T2A.


Also more than 2 sides.
What about if each shrine had their own team?

T2A? Not unless the map was smoothed out. It would be impossible for a dexxer to keep up with a mage teleporting from ledge to ledge around there.
 

FrejaSP

Queen of The Outlaws
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Thanks for your feedback. I've been playing UO since 1999 since you asked and have participated in a number of different play styles. At times I've been a "tram blue non-pvpers" that you describe, others I've been a resource gatherer and crafter, a role-players, and others I've been an Abyss shard color war junkie (Which I still think was the best PvP UO offered...right before Siege became a reality).

Part of something being In Concept it is just that - In Concept. The issue I pointed out with faction artifacts used in Trammel is that for a while the system was exploited for the artifacts in that players would join, get free gear, and then never actually participate in the faction system. Over time there have been a series of attempts to fix that, the most recent the inclusion of faction silver. While you may not have an issue with collecting enough silver to sustain the use artifacts, others do, and have made their feelings known. The idea is that if you want to PvP you don't want to have to PvM to farm silver. That is why the artifacts and gear won't require any payment, other than participating and using them in Felucca.
Hi Kyronix
Some of us on Siege is very worried about this new faction artifacts. Our whole shard is Fel and PvP is not only going on inside faction. Factions artifacts almost killed out shard once. We also have red vs blue PvP and some who would never join Faction or what you call it, but they still want to be able to defend them self vs a Faction or V vs V player. Also a Faction player can loot and use a non faction players gear but a non faction players can't use factions artifacts.

We don't want this artifact to split our community one more time. Right now, everything is balanced, the faction players do us a lot imbued too and many of them are buying it from non faction crafters.

Getting V vs V free artifacts are not good for Siege. I don't think Siege PvP'ers need fee gear as carrot to join V vs V. Most of them have 2 reasons to join, they want more enemies and they want to stay blue.

Maybe just nerf the artifacts on Siege so artifacts from spawn always will be a little better and so will Crafted artifacts/ imbued items

Please, now where we get more players from the new housing rules, we can't have factions artifacts killing our shard again.
 

Kyronix

UO Designer
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Hi Kyronix
Some of us on Siege is very worried about this new faction artifacts. Our whole shard is Fel and PvP is not only going on inside faction. Factions artifacts almost killed out shard once. We also have red vs blue PvP and some who would never join Faction or what you call it, but they still want to be able to defend them self vs a Faction or V vs V player. Also a Faction player can loot and use a non faction players gear but a non faction players can't use factions artifacts.

We don't want this artifact to split our community one more time. Right now, everything is balanced, the faction players do us a lot imbued too and many of them are buying it from non faction crafters.

Getting V vs V free artifacts are not good for Siege. I don't think Siege PvP'ers need fee gear as carrot to join V vs V. Most of them have 2 reasons to join, they want more enemies and they want to stay blue.

Maybe just nerf the artifacts on Siege so artifacts from spawn always will be a little better and so will Crafted artifacts/ imbued items

Please, now where we get more players from the new housing rules, we can't have factions artifacts killing our shard again.
We are aware of the unique situation that Siege would be in regarding the free gear offered and will work something out before final implementation. Having a negative effect on Siege is not something we wish to gain out of this.
 

Heavenless

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
I think everyone's bottom line is; will the new system be something that keeps people coming back for more? Will it bring back people that left or were discouraged w/ the current system in place? The majority of the time w/ mmo's (imo) whomever complains the most gets what they want. I'm sure that isn't the motivation for the proposed 'Virtue & Vice' & removal of factions and I look forward to any updates that get shared w/ the community at large. As long as it's well thought out, tried, tested, and bug free I'm sure it will be great!!

<Faction Negatives>
1. CoM Base
2. Base choke points (e-walls + all kill)
3. 10 hours waiting for sigils to corrupt
4. Farming silver
5. Self Res. + Faction/Shrine Rune
6. Faction Leader silver tax
7. Stat Loss

<Faction Pluses>
1. 4 Teams
2. Faction Horse
3. Easy access to gear
4. Monster Ignore!!
5. Raiding Despise
6. Faction Thieves
7. PK'ing blues w/ uBeR gear

p.s. wth is color wars?
 

CovenantX

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The issue I pointed out with faction artifacts used in Trammel is that for a while the system was exploited for the artifacts in that players would join, get free gear, and then never actually participate in the faction system. Over time there have been a series of attempts to fix that, the most recent the inclusion of faction silver. While you may not have an issue with collecting enough silver to sustain the use artifacts, others do, and have made their feelings known. The idea is that if you want to PvP you don't want to have to PvM to farm silver. That is why the artifacts and gear won't require any payment, other than participating and using them in Felucca.

Kyronix, in the OP it says the new "artifacts" would be only functional in Felucca...
3. Gear will be functionally useful in Felucca only.
3. This is the biggest thing that (IMO) could have completely saved UO from publish 77s faction butchering, If this is possible, why wasn't this done long ago? It allows artifacts to be easier to obtain for "PVP use-only" instead of players joining on their "Trammie chars" to farm things in non-pvp areas.
Why not just replace the current faction artifacts with what is "in concept" for Virtue vs Vice? Surely that would fix the exploitation of these items being purchased and used in non-pvp areas no ?

Instead of the artifacts being ephemeral/moon bound, why not make them only repairable with Powder of Temperment (Faction PoF) ? Each time you repair them, they lose 10 max durability each time? It would be an effective Silver-sink (lol?) & items would only take durability damage from actual combat. instead of items decaying even while there's no pvp....

Which would make it much easier to players to pvp on multiple shards of course the silver prices should be reduced for obtaining these items, since they would be functional only in fel.
 

Viper09

Grand Poobah
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Stratics Legend
Actually this is in the 1st post.

What will happen to the current faction system?
1. All aspects of the current faction system will be removed.
Indeed. But I had simply meant that nothing is written in stone yet.

I am all for it though. As I (and others) had already mentioned, factions is gone. The lore is lost and the main idea behind factions is lost on most (if not all) shards. What is needed is a massive overhaul or something built new from the ground up.
 
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FrejaSP

Queen of The Outlaws
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We are aware of the unique situation that Siege would be in regarding the free gear offered and will work something out before final implementation. Having a negative effect on Siege is not something we wish to gain out of this.
Thanks a lot *Bows*
 

Varrius

Sage
Stratics Veteran
Stratics Legend
Faction silver is not a problem at all and I don't hear ANYONE and I mean ANYONE at all crying about faction silver of all things.
What? LOL
That is the main reason people stopped playing lesser populated shards. Most of my friends and myself have characters on multiple shards but cannot play those characters now due to not having silver. That was a major blow to people pvping on more than their home shard. And all of this "factions is active on Siege is nonsense". You have two guilds that are factions on Siege and there are no "faction town fighting". Enough with the trolling. If you don't have anything to contribue to this thread, can you please leave.

Thanks
 
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Tjalle

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And Kyronix I invite you to come play with me in factions on Siege before you go making any changes like this because you are going to screw the game up & you could quite possibly kill off pvp in EA UO shards...
President?
 

Kyronix

UO Designer
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I think everyone's bottom line is; will the new system be something that keeps people coming back for more? Will it bring back people that left or were discouraged w/ the current system in place? The majority of the time w/ mmo's (imo) whomever complains the most gets what they want. I'm sure that isn't the motivation for the proposed 'Virtue & Vice' & removal of factions and I look forward to any updates that get shared w/ the community at large. As long as it's well thought out, tried, tested, and bug free I'm sure it will be great!!

<Faction Negatives>
1. CoM Base
2. Base choke points (e-walls + all kill)
3. 10 hours waiting for sigils to corrupt
4. Farming silver
5. Self Res. + Faction/Shrine Rune
6. Faction Leader silver tax
7. Stat Loss

<Faction Pluses>
1. 4 Teams
2. Faction Horse
3. Easy access to gear
4. Monster Ignore!!
5. Raiding Despise
6. Faction Thieves
7. PK'ing blues w/ uBeR gear

p.s. wth is color wars?
Back in the days before Siege there was an Abyss shard. You'd log in and join one of a few teams...orange, purple, red, etc...each team had their own perks...full suit of plate, a full bag of regs with a spell book. Each team had a castle and a stone inside...you'd get points by dbl clicking the stone. It really boiled down to a polymorphed chicken trying to get past a hoard of field mages...but damn if it wasn't fun!
 

G.v.P

Stratics Legend
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Back in the days before Siege there was an Abyss shard. You'd log in and join one of a few teams...orange, purple, red, etc...each team had their own perks...full suit of plate, a full bag of regs with a spell book. Each team had a castle and a stone inside...you'd get points by dbl clicking the stone. It really boiled down to a polymorphed chicken trying to get past a hoard of field mages...but damn if it wasn't fun!
I wish I played back then, or that I was more conscious...the Abyss shard looks like it was a blast from all that I've read and seen. Shard of the Dead and Shard of Screams, and all of those other ones thereafter, they were nice...but no Abyss shard.
 
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G.v.P

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And all of this "factions is active on Siege is nonsense". You have two guilds that are factions on Siege and there are no "faction town fighting".
Seems like SL owns Siege right now, from what I can tell.
 

G.v.P

Stratics Legend
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Stratics Legend
+/- Only 2 teams (IF they remove the traitor debuff, perhaps this will encourage MORE Reds)
The whole point of creating a PvP system should be to encourage that system, not encourage people to PK. The PK system was set in place to dissuade players from killing other players against their will. We should expect more from a PvP system, IMO, but I suppose there's no real alternative unless the PvP system in question utilizes instances of the Virtue Shrines (open PvP requires Reds).

We can't force everyone to join sides, and if you don't have a Red then it's going to be impossible, as always, to control spawns, etc. There's no good sandbox solution. Either you force everyone to take a side or you disallow those outside the system to affect those within the system. One option will be guild wars, which will hopefully supersede traitor debuffs so each side will and can have voluntary divisions (for your three-team idea). That's still a voluntary action, though, which means being Red would still be necessary for those who refuse to join a side.

I don't know. The reason I'm ruminating is because I wish we could have full sandbox PvP without needing Reds so we can have full sandbox PvP and still participate in other events, on other facets, with the same character. I guess the easy fix would be just to allow Reds on any facet, but it would be nice if there was a system in place at points of interest which made those points require some sort of a PvP system which would change the meta.
 

Blitzkrieg

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I just wanted to throw out one more "dont kill the faction horses/dont tear down the bases" post, so...Please dont kill the horses and please dont tear down the bases whatever changes you make!
 

Mervyn

Babbling Loonie
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I'd like to see this 'Wounded' debuff apply to anyone who dies anywhere to anything (trammel or fel) whether you're in virtue/vice or not.
 

Native

Visitor
Stratics Veteran
I would like to see this in action before I know if its good or not. Can you load it up on TC for active testing and critique from players?
 

Mervyn

Babbling Loonie
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I'm a fan of adding this new content and removing old content that didn't work.

However I'll take one for the team and remind you that there are 273! bugs that remain unfixed. While most of them don't affect me, i'd say this is an unacceptable amount. What kind of company releases new content ontop of buggy content? Buggy stuff ontop of buggy stuff is super bad.
 

budman23

Journeyman
Stratics Veteran
Honestly after looking at this proposed system we can very easily see what is coming.

Everyone will join for the first few days and try it out.
Then the slaughter will happen on every shard as players will die because they were forced to stay in proximity of a known location,
unable to stay hidden because of track/detect people, getting repeatedly grief killed by non participants, because theres no faction base to hide in.
Then they will be repeatedly res killed by spirit speakers because the opportunity to kill so many over and over wont be missed.

All of you people who think different obviously are the geniuses who don't pvp and think this will let you.

After 2 weeks 99% of the shard wont use it at all.
The only difference is this time you wont have crafters left in it or thieves or trammies LOL.
 

Promathia

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Honestly after looking at this proposed system we can very easily see what is coming.

Everyone will join for the first few days and try it out.
Then the slaughter will happen on every shard as players will die because they were forced to stay in proximity of a known location,
unable to stay hidden because of track/detect people, getting repeatedly grief killed by non participants, because theres no faction base to hide in.
Then they will be repeatedly res killed by spirit speakers because the opportunity to kill so many over and over wont be missed.

All of you people who think different obviously are the geniuses who don't pvp and think this will let you.

After 2 weeks 99% of the shard wont use it at all.
The only difference is this time you wont have crafters left in it or thieves or trammies LOL.

Actually, they are looking into having the battles "instanced" so to speak. As in, battle starts, you get transported/take a gate to an instanced version of the battlefield, and fight.

Thus removing houses from the area + the possibility of people from outside the system just going to mess it up.
 

hen

Certifiable
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Actually, they are looking into having the battles "instanced" so to speak. As in, battle starts, you get transported/take a gate to an instanced version of the battlefield, and fight.

Thus removing houses from the area + the possibility of people from outside the system just going to mess it up.
I think this goes against the spirit of Felucca, the facet of choice.
Sure houses, blues and other variables can be an irritant, but I think an instanced battlefield would take us out of the 'Wild West' and deposit us firmly in a theme park.
 

Promathia

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I think this goes against the spirit of Felucca, the facet of choice.
Sure houses, blues and other variables can be an irritant, but I think an instanced battlefield would take us out of the 'Wild West' and deposit us firmly in a theme park.
I think you are missing the point of it then.

This is their attempt to do a "battleground" type of thing. An on demand feature, that will give you ondemand pvp.


No serious PvPer wants houses on the battlefield, and I KNOW factioners HATE IT when nonfactioners try to interfere in fights/faction battles. Instancing the battlefield cures that, while providing an open battlefield for everyone to fight it out.

Remember, if you don't want to do it, you simply don't go, and continue to fight at yew gate or spawns. I mean, Faction fights (THE WAY THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN, IE BASE/SIGIL FIGHTS) were blocked off from nonfactioners. So was THAT against the spirit of Fel? Of course not. Of course, people found ways to include nonfactioners as a way to gain advantage, but that was fought against by everyone who used the system, and changes were put in place to combat that (Such as increasing the faction blockoff range at Minax base for example)


Factions main system (which is the same basic principle here) is to create a DIFFERENT type of content/fight. For Factions you know what you had in the town/sigil fights, and every attempt was made to make sure it was blocked off to only those who were actually in factions. Same principle applies here, except now they have the means to do something they perhaps couldn't when factions was introduced.


Are they FOR SURE going to "instance" the shrine fights? No, its all very much still in concept. But I know any serious pvper I have talked to, agrees that SOMETHING needs to be put in place to prevent househiding/nonsystem guilds/outside griefing. Easiest way to do that? Instance the fight
 
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Tina Small

Stratics Legend
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Stratics Legend
If fights are going to be instanced, will your character be automatically ejected from the instance if your client crashes? Will your character be ejected from the instance after a certain amount of time passes following the end of the battle? If yes to either, what happens to any items you might have had on your corpse(s) when you were ejected...you just can't get back in the instance to retrieve them? Or will corpses be pitched out of the instance as they are with the arenas? If yes, will it work that way on Siege and Mugen also, basically providing a potential means for avoiding the loss of items from your corpse?
 

The Zog historian

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Honestly after looking at this proposed system we can very easily see what is coming.

Everyone will join for the first few days and try it out.
Then the slaughter will happen on every shard as players will die because they were forced to stay in proximity of a known location,
unable to stay hidden because of track/detect people, getting repeatedly grief killed by non participants, because theres no faction base to hide in.
Then they will be repeatedly res killed by spirit speakers because the opportunity to kill so many over and over wont be missed.

All of you people who think different obviously are the geniuses who don't pvp and think this will let you.

After 2 weeks 99% of the shard wont use it at all.
The only difference is this time you wont have crafters left in it or thieves or trammies LOL.
As opposed to today's stalemates of house-hiding and dungeon marathons? I'll take my chances with a battlefield.

One side is going to win, one will lose. Real PvPers accept that. What the battlefield scenario will do is discourage those who need houses or dungeon caverns to flee in.

The whole idea of a wounded debuff means that there's no point to getting repeatedly resurrected, thus preventing battles from becoming hours-long stalemates.
 

The Zog historian

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If fights are going to be instanced, will your character be automatically ejected from the instance if your client crashes? Will your character be ejected from the instance after a certain amount of time passes following the end of the battle? If yes to either, what happens to any items you might have had on your corpse(s) when you were ejected...you just can't get back in the instance to retrieve them? Or will corpses be pitched out of the instance as they are with the arenas? If yes, will it work that way on Siege and Mugen also, basically providing a potential means for avoiding the loss of items from your corpse?

Presumably lost connections and crashes will be treated as normal. I remember a very early explanation of the five-minute timeout, that instant logging could be abused by someone in combat, so it's essential to keep that for any PvP system.

It stinks to lose connection or crash, but at least the game and Windows versions are much more stable these days.
 

Black Majick

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Perhaps they can move the War Horses to some sort of special thing you can get with Turn in Points or something... Perhaps special colored War Horses could be bought with your Town Loyalty... Would be nice to have pets you can rez... without needing a Tamer to assist you. And they have much better resists and such than a regular horse. I see nothing wrong with finding a new home for them.

I like the idea of buying them in a town you are loyal too and possibly having to maintina a lower level of loyalty to that town. You dont even have to make them special colored. The increased HP and ability to rez with no vet would make them worth 1m gold to me, haha. Make them able to be bonded though or cheap enough to replace. If bondable maybe 500k-1m. If not maybe 10-20k? Great idea for gold sink there.
 

Promathia

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I like the idea of buying them in a town you are loyal too and possibly having to maintina a lower level of loyalty to that town. You dont even have to make them special colored. The increased HP and ability to rez with no vet would make them worth 1m gold to me, haha. Make them able to be bonded though or cheap enough to replace. If bondable maybe 500k-1m. If not maybe 10-20k? Great idea for gold sink there.
They are a pvp commodity, and pvpers are not going to do any of what is suggested. Its like what Kyronix has mentioned and others. What REALLY hurt pvpers? When you forced them to go pvm for their silver to continually replace their artifacts every month. The only thing you should have to do to keep your pvp armor / commodities is pvp.

You cant take MORE away from the pvpers.
 

Cadderly

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We are looking at providing a solution to this by centering battles in a mirrored area of the shrine....something along the lines of you go to a shrine, then head to the battleground area. This allows us to both deal with housing in the area that could complicate things, as well as provide different areas for battle with varying landscapes and other natural features...which of course makes for a more fun fighting experience.

Thanks for the feedback!
Please do not dump us in a pre made battleground. There are a lot of options here.

*Clear the area around shrines or your battle arena much like you did to mag and allow restricted housing designs that have houses restricted to "no player access restriction list and no secure storage"(thieves vs trap makers vs trap removers) Give us the rules and let us make our own designs.

* Each battle drops you in random cities/locations to fight. There are a lot of great places to have large scale battles. Give us the tools to plot our own defense and attack methods. Traps, guards, and block aids in a large area can help players defeat better players with tactics.

You are free to ship anything wherever you want (to a degree), as the introduction of the transfer token changed the shard economy to a global one long ago. With the way the battles will work, a certain threshold must be met on each team before the battle initiates...if there are 300 Virtue players online and only 1 Vice...the battle won't initiate until sufficient balance has been met.
Love that you are bringing back the idea of not being able to join/participate in a team unless both sides are equal, but there is one major flow in the "threshold" when you only have two teams. How do you prevent players in a small groups or large guilds from taking advantage of this? Way to easy to grab some buddies and put a couple toons on each side just to start the threshold and kill each other to get the rewards. Going to be pretty damn hard for players to police this at night.


There is a **** load of directions you can take this. Remember the devs are few and the players are many. We will learn your design and then learn to abuse it. Give us the ability for changing how we fight in your sandbox. PvP'ers don't need much, just a good reason to organize fights and we will stay entertained killing each other for years as long as there is a worthy objective. If you are going to make one new structured pvp design you better be willing to continue updating it every week, every month, and for years to come. Factions took a long time, a lot of updates and a lot of player interaction to figure out all the complications. Once this stopped it took a decade before factions died out. You best be willing to make it better then factions because nobody will complain a couple years from now if it works. A **** load of players will come back for a pvp expansion . If it is worse then a couple thousand subscribers that have been patiently waiting will leave this game. Just one design will work as long as you stick with it. There is no need for new monsters, dungeons, quests, land masses.... Just one activity to keep us pvper's staying actively fighting.

Kyro tell your bosses that this is your baby and you are going to make it work no matter how long it takes.

For the love of god what would we do with a dedicated, knowledgeable, and interactive dev that focuses all his time into pvp...
 

Promathia

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Please do not dump us in a pre made battleground. There are a lot of options here.

*Clear the area around shrines or your battle arena much like you did to mag and allow restricted housing designs that have houses restricted to "no player access restriction list and no secure storage"(thieves vs trap makers vs trap removers) Give us the rules and let us make our own designs.

* Each battle drops you in random cities/locations to fight. There are a lot of great places to have large scale battles. Give us the tools to plot our own defense and attack methods. Traps, guards, and block aids in a large area can help players defeat better players with tactics.
1. They arent going to make people design their house/not let them in their house/make them move their house
2. Fighting in GuardZones sounds completely not fun. This isnt a tower defense game, and they arent going to revamp all the towns guardzones for this. Why would you even WANT something like faction guards anyway? I get why they worked for defending 10hour sigils, but for this? I dont see why PvPers would want pvm in their battles.
 

Lythos-

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From what I gather they aren't dumping anyone into premade pvp. They're allowing the option to have pvp other than spawns/yew gate and reward participation for it.
 

Promathia

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From what I gather they aren't dumping anyone into premade pvp. They're allowing the option to have pvp other than spawns/yew gate and reward participation for it.
Absolutely right. Nothing about the shrine fights is REQUIRED. If you don't want to go, don't go.

There is a clear problem with houses by the shrines / outside forces griefing the actual battle.For instance, Chaos shrine is SURROUNDED by houses, literally. And anyone who does this for more than say a couple of weeks, isnt going to want people who arent even IN the system able to just kill anyone they want taking part in battle. Is it fair for a guild of reds, to not only be attacking the oranges, but say a ZERG of blues?
 

Tina Small

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I'd like more information on how making the battles instanced is going to work. Will everyone who happens to be at the shrine when the game decides there is sufficient balance between the sides get moved into the instance, but no one else who wasn't there won't be allowed to join that instance but people in the instance can leave before the battle is finished? What happens to everyone else on the shard if they would like to participate in a Virtue vs. Vice battle when there is already an instance active--do they have to go to a different shrine and will they be put into another instance?
 

Promathia

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I'd like more information on how making the battles instanced is going to work. Will everyone who happens to be at the shrine when the game decides there is sufficient balance between the sides get moved into the instance, but no one else who wasn't there won't be allowed to join that instance but people in the instance can leave before the battle is finished? What happens to everyone else on the shard if they would like to participate in a Virtue vs. Vice battle when there is already an instance active--do they have to go to a different shrine and will they be put into another instance?
I honestly dont even think THEY have the details yet. Its not even set in stone that it IS instanced, just that they are thinking of it.

Remember, all of this is VERY MUCH still in the concept stages, so instead of asking those questions, I would instead give suggestions.
 

Tina Small

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I honestly dont even think THEY have the details yet. Its not even set in stone that it IS instanced, just that they are thinking of it.

Remember, all of this is VERY MUCH still in the concept stages, so instead of asking those questions, I would instead give suggestions.

I'm paying a hefty fee each month for UO. If I want to ask questions to determine whether or not it makes sense for me to continue paying for it and to hang around to see this system implemented as a replacement to factions, I damn well WILL ask questions, even if I have strong doubts my questions will ever be answered.

If you don't want to read my posts and my questions, just skip them. It's that simple. And if Mesanna, Kyronix or Bleak don't want me to ask any more questions, they can message me themselves and ask me to stop. I don't listen well to self-appointed errand boys.
 

Promathia

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I'm paying a hefty fee each month for UO. If I want to ask questions to determine whether or not it makes sense for me to continue paying for it and to hang around to see this system implemented as a replacement to factions, I damn well WILL ask questions, even if I have strong doubts my questions will ever be answered.

If you don't want to read my posts and my questions, just skip them. It's that simple. And if Mesanna, Kyronix or Bleak don't want me to ask any more questions, they can message me themselves and ask me to stop. I don't listen well to self-appointed errand boys.
Woah there buddy.

All I am saying is, they havent even SAID they are going to instance it, all they have is discussed ways to fix the problems that have already been outlined. Nothing has been set in stone, nothing is up and running, its all in the concept stage. So why ask questions to something the Devs havent even said they ARE doing?

Obviously they want feedback from the community, and I think its great that it seems we, the players, are having a say in what they are adding in. So lets brainstorm as a community to create a system that we can enjoy and pvp in.

If I recall, when battle started on Shard of the Dead, a gump popped up asking you if you wanted to join battle. That was how you got teleported to the fighting area. If you missed out, you simply had to wait until another battle started. I don't believe you'd have to actually be at a certain location, of course who knows how they might implement it.
 

Viper09

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And if they don't have the answers yet for something that is only in concept (or in the idea phase)?
 
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Promathia

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If fights are going to be instanced, will your character be automatically ejected from the instance if your client crashes? Will your character be ejected from the instance after a certain amount of time passes following the end of the battle? If yes to either, what happens to any items you might have had on your corpse(s) when you were ejected...you just can't get back in the instance to retrieve them? Or will corpses be pitched out of the instance as they are with the arenas? If yes, will it work that way on Siege and Mugen also, basically providing a potential means for avoiding the loss of items from your corpse?
As the Devs probably don't even have answers for these yet, since as its been said everything is still in concept, I think its best to look at what we already have in game.

Currently in instances, you have your timer to get in (Of course, in whats available currently, its with keys). Losing connection does not currently eject you out, and there is a timer from when the boss dies for you to get your things and leave. If you get ejected while your corpse still has items, they are lost.

You also bring up a good point by talking about how Arena's currently work in regards to bodies. Dying in an Arena pops the body out, allowing you to gather everything up. The thing is, PvPers will most likely want to be able to loot each other (Looting pots + supplies). If you are worried about the loot on your body, does that mean you would like bodies to be unlootable within the battle? Or would you just like it if your final body is ejected out along with you?

Your team has to win 5 shrines to get the rewards, so I would think you don't want EACH battle taking hours to do. Looting would definitely make things go faster, as you kill and eliminate the other teams resources. I personally think preventing looting would be too much of a turnoff, and isnt what Fel is.
 

budman23

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Instanced pvp? Theres a big lol
The real problem is you don't understand why its such a big issue to basically tell people they either join or cant participate.

The real issue with factions was not the fact blues interacted it was the crappy programing that allowed a factioner to do 5 damage and blues the other 125 and the person still goes in stat.

If you think you need all these changes to fix that one problem then as a whoever you are a major fail.
If you think the return on the investment for all of these changes vs my 1 change I bet id still make more money and cost 1/100 of what you do.

But keep ignoring the populous it makes for a great story to your future employer.
 

Tina Small

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Woah there buddy.

All I am saying is, they havent even SAID they are going to instance it, all they have is discussed ways to fix the problems that have already been outlined. Nothing has been set in stone, nothing is up and running, its all in the concept stage. So why ask questions to something the Devs havent even said they ARE doing?
If I recall, when battle started on Shard of the Dead, a gump popped up asking you if you wanted to join battle. That was how you got teleported to the fighting area. If you missed out, you simply had to wait until another battle started. I don't believe you'd have to actually be at a certain location, of course who knows how they might implement it.
Kyronix said the following in a post on Thursday [ http://stratics.com/community/threads/in-concept-virtue-vs-vice.301505/page-5#post-2290017 ]:

We are looking at providing a solution to this by centering battles in a mirrored area of the shrine....something along the lines of you go to a shrine, then head to the battleground area. This allows us to both deal with housing in the area that could complicate things, as well as provide different areas for battle with varying landscapes and other natural features...which of course makes for a more fun fighting experience.
He also said [ http://stratics.com/community/threads/in-concept-virtue-vs-vice.301505/page-5#post-2290023 ]:

With the way the battles will work, a certain threshold must be met on each team before the battle initiates...if there are 300 Virtue players online and only 1 Vice...the battle won't initiate until sufficient balance has been met.
What does all that sound like to you? He doesn't specifically say the battleground area is in an instance, but he does say it will be in a "mirrored area of the shrine." That's why I asked the questions I did. I would like to better understand how it is going to work when characters "head to the battleground area." I also asked about what happens to corpses because of the way corpses are handled today when you fight in the arenas and based on what can happen if you are doing a peerless and leave (via a crash or voluntarily) before the peerless encounter has concluded.

Obviously they want feedback from the community, and I think its great that it seems we, the players, are having a say in what they are adding in. So lets brainstorm as a community to create a system that we can enjoy and pvp in.
In my opinion, it's pretty difficult to make suggestions to improve a proposal when the proposal is so sketchy or so full of vague or undefined terms and phrases that you can't really get a firm grasp on what is being proposed.

Unlike you, I also think it's far too early to say whether or not a significant amount of player feedback is going to be incorporated into the final design. Mesanna started the thread on July 3rd. It wasn't until July 18th that we who are not on the Stratics staff had any good indication at all that anyone on the dev team was even checking the thread. Kyronix did make 18 posts in the thread since Thursday, so that IS a good sign that someone on the team is actually reading the thread and trying to respond to questions. However, just because Kyronix makes posts in the thread doesn't mean that what players say/suggest will have much influence over the final design. We won't really know that if and until this stuff hits Test Center.
 
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