Hey dumb dumb, watch your video again because clearly you dont understand your own video, lightning 11, lightning 11, velocity 7
-
Hail Guest! We're looking for Community Content Contribuitors to Stratics. If you would like to write articles, fan fiction, do guild or shard event recaps, it's simple. Find out how in this thread: Community Contributions
-
Greetings Guest, Having Login Issues? Check this thread!
-
Hail Guest!, Please take a moment to read this post reminding you all of the importance of Account Security.
-
Hail Guest! Please read the new announcement concerning the upcoming addition to Stratics. You can find the announcement Here!
enough is enough time to nerf moving shots ROUND 2
- Thread starter XavierFromLs
- Start date
- Watchers 4
1. I highly doubt u were on apple timer.
2. A real game scenario where your trying to fight 4 vs 1 ? again leaving out any crosshealers or counter play of any kind
3. that certainly isnt blitz
4. i know at least one of them is max damage
So you engage 1v4, don't even attempt to apple once you're cursed (you claim it was on cooldown, yet don't use one until you're on the roof), if I'm counting correctly there were 10 arrows fired, and only half of them hit you; pretty great ratio for a no parry character.
Out of the 5 hits that connect, 3 have a hit spell, and none of those hits proc a double hit spell (I was running a 46% lightning, 46% velocity bow, by the way). Neither of us are 211 stam, nor were we in range for 3 seconds ( :12-:15 of the video), and we would have stayed out of range had you kept running in a straight line, instead of going on top of the bank, coming down, and then dying. If you played an archer you would know how difficult it is to stay with a target, as hit lightning makes you lose a minimum of 1 tile every time it procs.
If you're not okay with four characters doing that much damage to you while you're on a glass cannon template, I'm not sure what you want that situation to look like.
Where'd you get your numbers from, are they Official numbers?
You realize that with a melee weapon armed for 73.8% of the time would be in any fight, the majority of attacks would be made with that weapon, right?
Archery would be considered secondary (because they would start with disarm if they had a melee skill).... but this means the bow would be armed more than the melee weapon.
Maybe you should try harder to come up with something that's not contradictory to itself
Oh I get it.... you're counting non-pvp times too where you'd often sit with your disarm weapon in hand instead of your bow. because that's the only way your numbers could be correct. You're tricky, but you're still behind in this argument.
So you're saying that it could be made better if you were 211 stamina. Gotcha (not helping your argument).
Glass Cannon template = anyone without Parry? Elaboration required because that's what it seems like you're saying to me. (if it's the case, this is also not helping your argument).
How many non-parry mages have you chased from full to 0 with running shots? I'm pretty sure 100% of parry mages have parry because of how overpowered archers are, just saying.
HPR out-heals running shots alone huh?
Maybe I should stack some HPR, maybe I wouldn't need parry then eh?
oh wait, that's wrong too.
Mentioning that we're not 211 does help our argument, as the core of this thread is based around the fact that OP thinks that 1.25s swing speed is too fast. So if what is in that video is also too powerful (in a 4v1, mind you), is 1.5s also too fast? Where do we stop? I also mention it to combat the clueless mages that couldn't spot the difference between 180 and 211 stam if it was right in front of them (hint- it is).
As for proper non-parry mages, with a decent suit, 2/6 casting, all 70's, 45 DCI, an eater (damage or kinetic, not even really necessary), a bit of HPR (10+), and 50 EP with heal potions, I can't off the top of my head think of a time where I was able to 100-0 a non-cursed non-parry mage (with the suit requirements listed above, as they should be the bare minimum) 1v1 solely with running shots. This is with 120 Archery/120 Anatomy/120 Tactics/100 damage increase and a 46% lightning, 46% velocity composite bow. If that target is cursed (and either doesn't apple or has it on cooldown), it is much more likely that I can run them down; but that means we're talking about a 2v1. It is foolish to balance PvP around ganking scenarios.
As far as the glass cannon topic, I would consider any template without any of the applicable inherent survival skills that aren't a core of their template (parry+weapon skill, resisting spells, ninjitsu, bushido, heal+anat) a glass cannon. The poster of the video has a weapon skill, tactics, poisoning, and instead of any of the other survivability. So yes, when you dedicate a minimum of 290 skill points (more like 310-340) to your non-standard template offense (in this case, mage, eval, resist being the core), that makes you a glass cannon.
Almost all disarm archers are glass cannon builds. Depending on the template they can fit in either resist, ninjitsu, or bushido- very rarely more than one of those.
Running shot is essential in group PvP (small or large), because players are too often rewarded for running away instead of continuing to fight. Between eaters, HPR, 50/80EP heal potions, 4 second bandaids, confidence, healing stone, gift of renewal/attunement, it is already difficult enough to kill a target that doesn't want to stop moving, because they're too afraid to die in a video game.
This whole discussion is completely negligent of the fact that 1. it is incredibly difficult to keep up and continually moving shot a target that is running in a straight line (even with the EC), 2. hit spells cause you to lose a step on your target every time they proc. I think a lot of the complainers here would benefit from spending the day on an archer and trying to moving shot down every target, 1v1. It's simply not going to bag you kills with any degree of reliability.
You were get cursed and HLD and running shot by several different people while only using a weapon skill and this is your proof that it's broken?
Lol
DJ, you don't have to attempt to apple to know its on cooldown. Smart people can keep track of timers without pressing a button.
Ed, I fight outnumbered all the time and get kills, all the time.
Last time I checked, HLD and having several people attack you, all happens.
I know you are all just biased and trying to keep archery the way it is because you are all bad at playing everything else, and spent lots of gold on your suits. The fact of the matter is, archery is easily the strongest template in the game and 100% has shifted the ENTIRE META, no one seems to be addressing this.
Ed, I fight outnumbered all the time and get kills, all the time.
Last time I checked, HLD and having several people attack you, all happens.
I know you are all just biased and trying to keep archery the way it is because you are all bad at playing everything else, and spent lots of gold on your suits. The fact of the matter is, archery is easily the strongest template in the game and 100% has shifted the ENTIRE META, no one seems to be addressing this.
I have no bias i play a tactics parry Mage
But it's interesting you know you'll be attacked by multiple people and call running shot broken under those conditions.
Let's be serious here, there is nothing wrong with running shot.
Either fix your template or move along.
How much does running shot do compared to armor ignore?
If you are counting the hit spells for moving shot, they should be factored into armor ignore as well. It is not anywhere near 80%.
Feel free to show me your status bar and debuffs next time you post your video and I will tell you where you went wrong.
Willingly trying to fight four on one isn't a flaw with the mechanics...
And there we have it, you have nothing to support a poor argument so "I don't know what I'm talking about".
Feel free to keep using a glass cannon template and getting smoked against 4 people.
Umm ya... What part of my argument was poor? You are busy posting numbers and percentages which mean nothing. The video is pretty clear. All of those numbers are real. The two archers attacking me weren't even 211 stamina. My suit is perfect. I was cursed and HLD'd the entire time.
It sounds like your issue is with curse/elemental bows. Not moving shot damage itself.
I'll preface this by saying I skipped about 3 1/2 pages of this because all the archers will say archery is fine (which is why most of them have been exclusively archers since imbuing) and all of the mages will cry swing speed.
The issue isn't fighting an archer alone. The issue is I know if I go to Yew gate, I'm going to fight 3+ archers. If a mage curses me, I'm getting moving shotted for 30 damage by three archers swinging at 1.5 or faster. If I apple, I still can't stop to put ANY offense out because I'll get mortalled every other swing, recursed, AND THEN moving shotted for 30. You can't stick around for heals, you're forced to run before you even take damage until apple timer cools down.
Everyone saying "oh just put parry on your template or you're dumb" are part of the issue. I play parry mages because the game dictates I have to. With splinter, disarms, moving shots I'm forced into a single viable mage template anywhere outside of a dungeon. With the amount of skills in this game, there is a problem with being forced into having to play one specific template to even survive.
The issue isn't fighting an archer alone. The issue is I know if I go to Yew gate, I'm going to fight 3+ archers. If a mage curses me, I'm getting moving shotted for 30 damage by three archers swinging at 1.5 or faster. If I apple, I still can't stop to put ANY offense out because I'll get mortalled every other swing, recursed, AND THEN moving shotted for 30. You can't stick around for heals, you're forced to run before you even take damage until apple timer cools down.
Everyone saying "oh just put parry on your template or you're dumb" are part of the issue. I play parry mages because the game dictates I have to. With splinter, disarms, moving shots I'm forced into a single viable mage template anywhere outside of a dungeon. With the amount of skills in this game, there is a problem with being forced into having to play one specific template to even survive.
My issue is with the overall power of archery and every small incremental change it has recieved in the past 5 years to make it far and away from best warrior template in the game and most likely the best overall.
If your solution is to get rid of elemental bows, that's fine. All I know is it needs a change.
If your solution is to get rid of elemental bows, that's fine. All I know is it needs a change.
Think about this, if you were cursed and HLD the whole time and your status bar wasn't showing tell me why things important when demonstrating damage.
Think hard.
Don't show me a random status bar after you're finished.
The character doesn't even show up in character search.
The one that did only had 85 resist.
OK now this is funny. Let me make sure I have this right.
Player A is getting killed by 2+ players in PvP and Player A wants all the 2+ archers nerfed so Player A can kill all the other players at the same time.
Question
Is player A even good enough to kill 1 player in PvP
What is player A's template and please do not say Mage because a Mage only takes up 360 points max, that still leaves a lot of skill points open.
What template can take on a 4v1 and win and what are those other templates you just killed.
Player A is getting killed by 2+ players in PvP and Player A wants all the 2+ archers nerfed so Player A can kill all the other players at the same time.
Question
Is player A even good enough to kill 1 player in PvP
What is player A's template and please do not say Mage because a Mage only takes up 360 points max, that still leaves a lot of skill points open.
What template can take on a 4v1 and win and what are those other templates you just killed.
History of how/why archery became the best skill in the game;
Prior to November 2011 it was mostly impossible to get 211 stamina on an archer suit. Base damage on comp bows were (I think) 13-17.
November 17, 2011 - Upgrades to the dungeon shame. Allowed archers to get stamina on jewels and splintering on warforks. This allows archers to get to 2011 stamina on expensive suits, mostly their damage increase was pretty low, also their mana was around 100, suits consisted of greater reforged barbed kit suits
April 16th, 2013 - Weapon and armor rebalancing. Composite bow base damage changed to 16-20, swing speed remained the same. This resulted in just a straight buff to moving shot, as good(rich) archers were already swinging at max speed. Studded armor now allows archers to get to 55% LMC and quickly became the meta as it allowed significantly more special moves in a row. Suits still extremely expensive to make because jewels required were relatively rare.
September 25th, 2014 - Global loot changes. Stamina and swing jewels become extremely common. Legendary armor becomes usable and common. Everyone can make a 211 stamina suit, most with high damage increase. Elemental bows become popular around this time.
October 8, 2015: Time of legends. Masteries added which make archers with 120 tactics 120 archery have a 90% chance to block disarms - removing their primary weakness.
2016 - Archer armor and jewels are so easy to obtain that almost anyone can get 150 hp 211 stamina 120+ mana 15-18 MR and 100 damage increase. Character can literally do everything well, and has no weakness that isn't inherent to every character without parrying.
Miscellaneous changes them I am not sure when they happened - Mortal becomes stackable.
As you can see it wasn't one thing. It was a bunch of changes that result in the character being overpowered. The result of these changes were the reduction or elimination of the viability of all other warrior templates and every mage template that doesn't have parry.
@Kyronix @Mesanna @Bleak
Repost of video for the developers
Prior to November 2011 it was mostly impossible to get 211 stamina on an archer suit. Base damage on comp bows were (I think) 13-17.
November 17, 2011 - Upgrades to the dungeon shame. Allowed archers to get stamina on jewels and splintering on warforks. This allows archers to get to 2011 stamina on expensive suits, mostly their damage increase was pretty low, also their mana was around 100, suits consisted of greater reforged barbed kit suits
April 16th, 2013 - Weapon and armor rebalancing. Composite bow base damage changed to 16-20, swing speed remained the same. This resulted in just a straight buff to moving shot, as good(rich) archers were already swinging at max speed. Studded armor now allows archers to get to 55% LMC and quickly became the meta as it allowed significantly more special moves in a row. Suits still extremely expensive to make because jewels required were relatively rare.
September 25th, 2014 - Global loot changes. Stamina and swing jewels become extremely common. Legendary armor becomes usable and common. Everyone can make a 211 stamina suit, most with high damage increase. Elemental bows become popular around this time.
October 8, 2015: Time of legends. Masteries added which make archers with 120 tactics 120 archery have a 90% chance to block disarms - removing their primary weakness.
2016 - Archer armor and jewels are so easy to obtain that almost anyone can get 150 hp 211 stamina 120+ mana 15-18 MR and 100 damage increase. Character can literally do everything well, and has no weakness that isn't inherent to every character without parrying.
Miscellaneous changes them I am not sure when they happened - Mortal becomes stackable.
As you can see it wasn't one thing. It was a bunch of changes that result in the character being overpowered. The result of these changes were the reduction or elimination of the viability of all other warrior templates and every mage template that doesn't have parry.
@Kyronix @Mesanna @Bleak
Repost of video for the developers
Last edited:
Their argument is ridiculous please nerf a special because I'm getting ganked by it.
I mean really?
My debuff bar was in the upper left corner. It wasn't a random status bar.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't take his video literally as him suggesting he should kill everyone 4v1. I'm sure you understand the video was a platform Virem used to demonstrate the damage of archers. Flip this around. If he's an archer being chased by mages, what is the outcome then? 0 damage.
Why are avoiding the status bar?
If this is valid there should be no problem showing your entire status bar during the fight. And what's with the "hey virem" character?
Please spare me the i don't have enough room on my screen garbage.
actually, feel free to record using your entire screen. That should be interesting.
Really? No one thinks he should be able to kill four people.
He's using damage from several archers as the example in the video without showing resists during it.
I wasn't going out looking to record a moving shot video that was a real fight. I spent 10 minutes fighting Paith alone before that. Who pvps with their status bar open? that's my entire screen. Hey Virem is the character name. The character is a tactics mage, the status bar I show at the end is obviously the same character as it has HCI, mage stats, 31 SDI, 73% damage increase for AIs.
My UO hasn't updated yet. The character is a few days old.
My UO hasn't updated yet. The character is a few days old.
The person I quoted and replied to thinks so. "player a wants all the archers nerfed so player a can KILL ALL THE OTHER PLAYERS AT THE SAME TIME."
That's as simple as I can make that lol.
If you're looking to base an argument vs four people on it, I'd say it's important.
But we can agree to disagree.
Good luck with the template.
He was paraphrasing virems argument.
That is what is being suggested by asking to nerf moving shot based off fighting several players.
Yes, it seems you are avoiding showing everything.
All I have to say is prove me wrong, then we will talk.
This thread is coming to:
A. Virem dies all the time on his "Tactics 'trys to one hit kill you' Mage" and he knows it so now he is making personal attacks
B. People want to complain about pvp in a ganking scenario with multiple factors
C. Everyone avoids the fact that running shot is the only special in the game that takes mana WHEN IT MISSES
D. Virem is a crybaby
A. Virem dies all the time on his "Tactics 'trys to one hit kill you' Mage" and he knows it so now he is making personal attacks
B. People want to complain about pvp in a ganking scenario with multiple factors
C. Everyone avoids the fact that running shot is the only special in the game that takes mana WHEN IT MISSES
D. Virem is a crybaby
Proof or move along.
Now you're talking in circles. I said there is no way you guys can be taking his video literally like he should kill 4 people. You say people aren't doing that, I quote otherwise, now you're back to saying that he is posting a video to literally say he should win 4v1. What are you trying to prove here?
At any rate, I don't mean to move this into debating dumb **** like that because nobody thinks they should win that. I would be interested in seeing anyone refute my original post though!
I don't really care about swing speed or damage necessarily. I've never bitched in game or in vent about moving shot, its the mortals and being forced into playing a parry mage. Boring.
The only person making personal attacks is you. But here comes one, you are a talentless newbie who ONLY plays an archer and only in a zerg guild. You have provided no evidence to support your point other than the fact that running shot takes mana when it misses, which is true. What's it cost ? 5 on the first 10 on the second? after 20 running shots you might be out of mana.
Archers were claiming that moving shot only did 18 damage at the most and also refused to take into account the damage from hit spell and velocity.
I didn't see any 18 damage moving shots in the video. They were hitting much harder. Archers trying hard to downplay the damage
I didn't see any 18 damage moving shots in the video. They were hitting much harder. Archers trying hard to downplay the damage
This whole thread is going around in circles especially when you chimed in after not reading most of it.
Simply put, virem is arguing to have a special nerfed because he is getting ganked using an offensive template.
Now since I tested the damage last night I know the video does not support the nerf because again it's against four people.
You guys can argue until you're blue in the face but there's no nerfing a special because of a poor choice in templates against two or more players.
I guess you are not in support of having a variety of templates in the game, since you consider not having parry a poor choice
Yeah you said this once already and it didn't make any sense then either.
LOL
A zerg of 7 people.. anyway
You tried to post a video that showed how strong moving shot was in a 4vs1.
You didnt apple, you got cursed (which an archer cant do) And quite frankly you ran back into the people who were chasing you.
So not using proper defense, bad positioning, and fighting outnumbered means running shot is overpowered.
Okay im sold, running shot is overpowered if you fight like Virem which most people on this thread must
Oh @Captn Norrington can we clean up virems personal attacks please before we have to lock the thread that he is clearly wrong about
hardly
Again, you're taking the video literally and can't see the greater scope of things. I've laid out the exact scenario for you and you refuse to acknowledge it. Fine, give him two parry mages to support him in that video. What happens? Its now 3v4, and the mages will still curse him every time he apples. Should he stop to fight, he will be mortaled every other swing because mortal is broken. Now he has to run because people can't heal him (see mortal), but he's going to take 30+ damage from moving shot. Can you seriously not take what he is showing and broaden the view?
Inb4 WELL GOSH HE SHOULD BE ON A PARRY MAGE THEN. Yeah, I've already stated how watered down and boring template selection is.
trying to get the thread locked since you are losing the argument? not cool
Melee should be far superior to ranged since a warrior needs to battle connection and personal space.
Archers hit too hard too fast and too often. Stand alone parry is useless. You have to have anatomy or wrestle as well. Even then it's only a matter of rng and mortal spams.
Archers hit too hard too fast and too often. Stand alone parry is useless. You have to have anatomy or wrestle as well. Even then it's only a matter of rng and mortal spams.
You're right. Just toning down the speed is not enough. Both the speed and damage need to be toned down.
Theres already a thread about mortal why dont u go post on that one k?