[Swordsmanship] Double Strike or Armor Ignore?

[Madrid]

Double Strike or Armor Ignore?

Where are you getting more bang for your buck (Mana)?

I've just recently started testing out some other weapons: Hatchet, Daisho, two handed axe.

I'm not likely to put down my radiant scimitar anytime soon as there hasn't been a job I haven't been able to do with it but I am curious as to what others have observed when testing out weapons.

For example How does the Daisho with it's double strike compare to a leafblade of ease with it's Armor Ignore?

Which would you choose?

 

[Kim Li of LS]

I personally lean toward leafblade, but that's because its a one hander w the same base damage.

As far as AI vs DS in general, (assuming you don't miss the 2nd hit on DS) DS is higher on damage if you are hitting a critter with the relevant resist < 45. If you hit on something w higher resists AI is tops on damage.

AI damage= D*.9=DS damage=2D*.(resist)

add algebra mumbo-jumbo and get 45

see how useful an associate degree mathematics is?

 

[Stupid Miner]

see how useful an associate degree mathematics is?

Gah! I can add, and subtract, they should just hand those out for free

Er, and to keep on topic. Have to agree with his assessment.

Rare that a monster has 45+ resist for its lowest resist.

Double strike is more broadly useful.

 

[Old Man of UO]

...
Rare that a monster has 45+ resist for its lowest resist...

Shimmering Effusion, Slasher, Travesty, Bone Demon, and a few others... but there aren't many.

What's so special about the 45 resist that DS works better than AI?

 

[Stupid Miner]

Shimmering Effusion, Slasher, Travesty, Bone Demon, and a few others... but there aren't many.

What's so special about the 45 resist that DS works better than AI?

AI does about 90% damage, but ignores all armor.
Double strike does 200% damage if both strikes hit.
200%*0.45 = 90%

Granted i think that's backwards and would need to be 55 resist since you multiply by the vulnerability, not the resistance, to determine damage.

 

[Nyses]

...
Rare that a monster has 45+ resist for its lowest resist...

Shimmering Effusion, Slasher, Travesty, Bone Demon, and a few others... but there aren't many.

What's so special about the 45 resist that DS works better than AI?

45 seems about right. The simple explaination is that against a Low resist DS will do lots of damage, upwards of 100 points for each hit for 200 total damage. The same double strike against a monster with all 70 resists would do maybe 40 per hit, so 80 damage total.

Now Use an AI on the first example above, and you do about 150 damage, that is less that the 200 or so you can get with a DS. It is however more than the maybe 80 hp damage you could get in the 2nd example.

Best example I can think of in the game would be the Renound Pixie, go DS her, then try AI.

 

[Old Man of UO]

... Best example I can think of in the game would be the Renound Pixie, go DS her, then try AI.

No way for me to make a fair comparison. I use maces, so that limits me to quarterstaff for the DS, and Hammerpick for the AI. The damage differences between those two would make a significant difference... the quarterstaff does low damage and I wouldn't want to use that as a main weapon compared to my diamond mace.

A UBWS weapon might make sense though.

 

[WarUltima]

AI does about 90% damage, but ignores all armor.
Double strike does 200% damage if both strikes hit.
200%*0.45 = 90%

Granted i think that's backwards and would need to be 55 resist since you multiply by the vulnerability, not the resistance, to determine damage.

When they changed (nerfed) double strike so their 2nd hit actually checks for hit/miss they also decreased the total damage on DS. Each hit will only deal 90% of their regular damage. So landing both hits will net you 180% damage pre-mitigation. So if the resist of the creature you are trying to hit is higher than 50 AI will out-damage double strike. (this is assuming 2nd hit always hit with 1st, in reality AI has more bang for the bulk for overall DPS despite it cost 5 more mana since when you whiff on DS the mana is still lost and you only get 90% of the pre-mitigated dmg)

In PvP assuming everyone has all 70s and high DCI, AI is better in almost every single aspect. However when you have high hit lighting on a good base dmg double strike weapons and is able to eliminate 2nd hit whiff(eg disarm double strike), DS has very high burst potential.

The absolutely heaviest double strike (shot) weapon is game is the Yumi. Combined with chance for quadruple proc (2 lightings w/ 2 velocity) it's very common to 2 shot another player after you have them disarmed.

 

[Garm The Green]

Nice thread!

I'm thinking double strike is nice for proccing extra hit spells/effects/perfection etc.

Double strike + counterattack = four hits

That said, i prefer AI for no other reason than i know it does what it says on the tin, where as there is more chance involved for double strike.

 

[Stupid Miner]

When they changed (nerfed) double strike so their 2nd hit actually checks for hit/miss they also decreased the total damage on DS. Each hit will only deal 90% of their regular damage. So landing both hits will net you 180% damage pre-mitigation. So if the resist of the creature you are trying to hit is higher than 50 AI will out-damage double strike. (this is assuming 2nd hit always hit with 1st, in reality AI has more bang for the bulk for overall DPS despite it cost 5 more mana since when you whiff on DS the mana is still lost and you only get 90% of the pre-mitigated dmg)

Er, I was never contesting the fact that for high armor AI is better.
Also, the 90% damage from AI seems to fail sometimes, and does 100% damage, probably would apply to DS as well. Dunno.

 

[NickyDishes]

how effective is double strike in pvp?

 

[Lynk]

how effective is double strike in pvp?

It can be very effective.

I don't PvP with this char anymore, but for a while I would use a 100% psn dmg double axe with 50 hit fireball.

I would use my necro/LJ axer and corpse skin, disarm, double strike.

Damage output incredibly high. Most people run when disarmed though, so it wasn't all that reliable.

 

[Kim Li of LS]

Ouch there is a 10% damage penalty on DS. That changes the math some.

More like .9D=1.8D*.(resist)

So yeah the important resists # would be 50.

All that discounts the possibility of 2nd swing miss, i would defiantly go AI.(for pvm anyway-I withhold input on pvp as I do not pvp)

 

[Stupid Miner]

All that discounts the possibility of 2nd swing miss, i would defiantly go AI.(for pvm anyway-I withhold input on pvp as I do not pvp)

Er, that makes about as much sense as only using Evasion and never Confidence.

... they're both useful in their respective situations, why impose a limit on yourself?

 

[WarUltima]

Er, I was never contesting the fact that for high armor AI is better.
Also, the 90% damage from AI seems to fail sometimes, and does 100% damage, probably would apply to DS as well. Dunno.

I should say I base my facts on the actual calculation and is assuming this is a PvP situation. (where AI has a cap of 35)

It can be proven by simple math...
According to the calculator (using hatchet as an example coz it has both AI and DS)
125 str 100 anatomy tactics and 100 DI
Hachet has dmg range of 47-54 the average of this is 50.5 after 70 resist is an average of 15dmg per hit...
Even if we ignore the 10% dmg penalty from DS both hits land it's still only 30dmg, in order to achieve 35dmg in a DS with a hatchet you need average dmg of 58.3 per swing which is impossible to achieve without spending skill in Lumberjack. (150str 120 anat tactics 100DI gives 51-59 avg is only 55).

Now in order to achieve 35dmg AI everytime you need min dmg at at least 39 (which is achieviable at only 100 str 100 tactics ZERO anatomy and 100 DI you dont even need that human 20 anatomy).

Equal skill AI's 35 dmg will happen 50% of the time, while DS will happen 25% of the time.

PvP ONLY: Again DS gives nice burst (with possible double procs on hit spells), but you need heavier weapon to go with it, and DS isnt reliable unless your opponent is disarmed (otherwise you will be wasting a lot of mana at the whiffing).

In PvM: If whatever you are trying to hit has at least 50 resist in it's lowest resist, AI beats the crap out of double shot, and you really dont want to put instant hit spell on DS weapon because lighting procs will ignore all the Perfection, EoO and Slayer bonus dmg you should get. ALSO if the mobs you are trying to hit has low resist but high wrestling skill, but you dont have a discoder with you (you are whiffing a good amount) AI will still be better.

DS can be better than AI but it's simply ultra situational. AI will work on anything and everything and get identical outcome and the only time you will lose dmg using AI is when the monster has a resist (that you are attacking against) lower than 10.

 

[Garm The Green]

/convinced

 

[WildWobble]

Diasho is a great 2 handed weapon fient/doubblestrike good weapon dmg. As a sammy i try to keep to 2 handed weapons more parry chance. I personally use a Diasho with x3 leech all 40+% with 30 ssi and 13 hci 40 di, That blade has let me solo proximus, dreadhorn, Semidar, Rikktor, and many more without the need of potions.

I set myself into a pattern of attacks and just repeat over and over usually Fient / lit strike / lit strike / lit strike / fient / lit strike / Doubble strike /..... every 4th attack is fient that is the main thing. Though this sword is used mainly for boss thumping. For mobs i tend to use a radiant scimi for the ww action. Usually have a swap weapon key set and just go between the diasho and whatever scimi i thought be best for the mobs farming keys or killing spawn.

Ai is handy for sure just not what i am looking for with a Busher lit strike critical is the same as an Ai so i skip ai on weapons and just rely on the hci/dmg of Lit strike. We are talking pvm here just no point to ai on a busher why limit your special's or ability's going full out i crit strike often useing lit strike.

 

[Stupid Miner]

Note... this topic has been hashed before.
http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=194180

 

[northwoodschopper]

No way for me to make a fair comparison. I use maces, so that limits me to quarterstaff for the DS, and Hammerpick for the AI. The damage differences between those two would make a significant difference... the quarterstaff does low damage and I wouldn't want to use that as a main weapon compared to my diamond mace.

A UBWS weapon might make sense though.

a war axe can also AI, it's not as strong as a hammerpick, but is a bit faster to reach cap, and the AI ability puts it at par with a diamond mace in damage output, utilizing AI in conjunction with LS.

 

[Garm The Green]

Ai is handy for sure just not what i am looking for with a Busher lit strike critical is the same as an Ai ....no point to ai on a busher why limit your special's or ability's going full out i crit strike often useing lit strike.

ahhh no! Expand your mind and try this thread dude...

http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?p=1755286#post1755286

 

[Old Man of UO]

a war axe can also AI, it's not as strong as a hammerpick, but is a bit faster to reach cap, and the AI ability puts it at par with a diamond mace in damage output, utilizing AI in conjunction with LS.

At least on my archer, I do about 50% more damage with lightning strike using a 100% elemental damage crossbow, compared to a plain wood composite bow, consecrate weapon and AI. On miasma with my xbow I average 150 per hit with criticals of 262. But with the composite bow, AI and CW I hit for a max of 190 and average about 114. I just wish I had a 100% fire damage composite bow and war axe to test AI with.