Does this game need an open debate on the status of PvP ?

[popps]

I have a question which I need an answer for since I get confused from the various posts I read going opposite directions.

Is PvP in Ultima Online just fine as it is or are there problems with it ?

If there is no problem than this closes this thread right here.

If instead, there are problems about PvP well, shouldn't we perhaps make a comprehensive list of what the problems are and then look at solutions about them ?

This, I would imagine, in the best interest of the game.

So ?

 

[Coragin]

Yes there are problems, however, I am afraid there is no way to get the masses to act like adults without name calling and put downs. At least not here. Some people like some things others dont. It will turn into arguements and nothing will get accomplished. Just look at the PS debates, at best I would say its 50/50 and the only thing you get is all the pvp'ers acting like children, saying nasty things. Not a one of them can be indifferent and look at both sides, they only want to see their side. And God forbid you suggest something they dont want or agree with, its like watching a 4 year old not get the candy they want in line at the grocery store.

Sadly, it is impossible for most to take a political standpoint so to speak and hear out the other persons ideas/motovation/proposals without verbaly attacking the person, instead of being productive and inventive by listening and finding some kind of compromise or middle ground.

 

[Trebr Drab]

There are a lot of problems with PvP. It's gotten too complicated and too much dependent on items and templates, too much rock/paper/scissors tied in with powergaming for items.

There's a lot of other problems too, generally in the "gameyness" of it all. But unless they start by fixing the first thing and going back to a simpler PvP model that relied on good timing and choices in combat, there's not much point in any of the rest. And the powers-that-be among the player community don't want those kinds of changes.

 

[popps]

Yes there are problems, however, I am afraid there is no way to get the masses to act like adults without name calling and put downs. At least not here. Some people like some things others dont. It will turn into arguements and nothing will get accomplished. Just look at the PS debates, at best I would say its 50/50 and the only thing you get is all the pvp'ers acting like children, saying nasty things. Not a one of them can be indifferent and look at both sides, they only want to see their side. And God forbid you suggest something they dont want or agree with, its like watching a 4 year old not get the candy they want in line at the grocery store.

Sadly, it is impossible for most to take a political standpoint so to speak and hear out the other persons ideas/motovation/proposals without verbaly attacking the person, instead of being productive and inventive by listening and finding some kind of compromise or middle ground.

Well, do we want Ultima Online to have a future and keep running for years to come or not ?

Because if we want, then I think whatever problems there may be need to be found and ironed out.

But if UO is considered a dead horse well, then it is a whole different story.

I am just trying to find out which is which as I have not yet understood it.

 

[Coragin]

If I could change two things about PvP it would be this...

1. You can only have two attackers on you at once. Anyone else beyond that tries to attack will get a message "This player is already in combat, you must wait". This will crub ganking. Guild members attacking you do not apply.

2. If you go off screen, you lose "last target" 100% and are no longer flagged to be attacking (highlighted enemy). This will stop people from running on and off screen.

 

[Jesusislord]

It's not just pvp. It's the fact that people can solo some of what it supposed to be the hardest stuff in the game pvm-wise. This just goes to show that the entire game is unbalanced, end of story.

 

[Mitzlplik_SP]

***Loud beeping and siren sounds***

Caution fellow board surfers. You have stumbled across another popps trap.

Slowly back away,wipe your feet and forehead and thank your lucky stars you didn`t get any BS on you. There is no end to the OP`s confusion and any attempt at curing it is futile and will only end in yet another popps trap being deployed.

We now return to your regularly scheduled programming.



I think some peaple put alot of effort into comming up with threads they know will bring out the worst in peaple(much to the delight of the OP). This is just another example of that. Right up there with tram versus fel threads and flame wars that go with them. Pointless.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

Yet another weirdly phrased popps post.

Anyone remember this?

There has been an open debate on the status of PvP since the game first came out.

PvP has always been item and template-dependent, it is just a matter of degree. For example, even posts in this overly-nostalgic, rose-colored thread thread acknowledged the importance of the warrior-mage template way back in the day.

*shrugs*

There is an open debate on the status of PvP. It has been going on for 12+ years.

-Galen's player

 

[kelmo]

*chuckles*

 

[Eyes of Origin]

No offense intended, but is there a problem with PvP from the Pvper's side or is there a problem with PvP from the trammies side??
Just a hunch, most of the complaints will probably come from trammies.

Heres a few things.............

take away faction arties for anyone as soon as they enter a tram facet OR make PvP between faction guilds allowed in tram...

get a backbone and go try to pvp, try to spawn... get your own scrolls... buy them, spawn for them.. find a way to get them, but leave the stuff in Fel.. jeez theres no feeling like the feeling of winning a spawn against reds and taking the scrolls... or being able to get them from other means. What satisfaction is it to get them in Tram? None

I am sooo sick of seeing this Tram vs Fel topic come up.

 

[GalenKnighthawke]

No offense intended, but is there a problem with PvP from the Pvper's side or is there a problem with PvP from the trammies side??
Just a hunch, most of the complaints will probably come from trammies.

Only if one defines "Trammie" in a manner completely independent of whether or not they actually do stuff in Trammel, because I see complaints from Fellies all the time. Speed-hacks, cheats, archers, Samurai, 4/6 casting, "mages online," "warriors online," "necros online."

None of that is coming from Trammel.

Oh, sorry, I just realized now you were probably kidding.

-Galen's player

 

[Trebr Drab]

It's not just pvp. It's the fact that people can solo some of what it supposed to be the hardest stuff in the game pvm-wise. This just goes to show that the entire game is unbalanced, end of story.

True. It all ties together, as a sandbox game should. But when things get out of balance, all things are affected.

 

[kelmo]

No offense intended toward any one... Don't be troll bait.

 

[KoolAidAddict]

Well, do we want Ultima Online to have a future and keep running for years to come or not ?

Because if we want, then I think whatever problems there may be need to be found and ironed out.

But if UO is considered a dead horse well, then it is a whole different story.

I am just trying to find out which is which as I have not yet understood it.

Seems pretty simple to understand to me.
UO has been a dead horse for at least 10 years due to all the "latest" uo killer online games coming out, yet here we be!!
In my book that makes it a continuing saga, one of a neverending one I certainly hope.
As far as "ironing" out these perceived problems, well thats the debate issue. See, what one so called spouter of know-it-all-that-needs-to-be-fixed-so-its-balanced-end-of-story says is the problem(s), others of the same category will disagree with name calling and whatnot as to what "needs" blah blah blah.
So it basically comes down to what the game developers see as "needs", and that has been subject to much change in UO over the years due to whomever is driving the bus. No amount of yada yada yada will sway the driver to turn left for a shorter route to the destination because he has his own map, his own vision, and well hes gettin paid due to that or he wouldnt have been signed on as the driver in the first place!
The he bumps into a tree, fails his sobriety test, they hire a new driver and here we go again in the back seats, being bumped all over the place as the new driver goes along "his" path, and damn the bumps, full speed ahead!

Yeah Im rambling a bit.
Bottom line, IMO, too many "end of story" opinions as to what "fixes" uo.
Its been fixed at every publish / patch and yet every one of them has also "broke" it as far as someone or many someone's are concerned!
Itll always be that way....of course IMHO!


Peace

 

[KoolAidAddict]

No offense intended, but is there a problem with PvP from the Pvper's side or is there a problem with PvP from the trammies side??
Just a hunch, most of the complaints will probably come from trammies.

Heres a few things.............

take away faction arties for anyone as soon as they enter a tram facet OR make PvP between faction guilds allowed in tram...

get a backbone and go try to pvp, try to spawn... get your own scrolls... buy them, spawn for them.. find a way to get them, but leave the stuff in Fel.. jeez theres no feeling like the feeling of winning a spawn against reds and taking the scrolls... or being able to get them from other means. What satisfaction is it to get them in Tram? None

I am sooo sick of seeing this Tram vs Fel topic come up.

Wow, you rag on "trammies" all to you know where and back a couple times and yet your "soo sick" enough that you do what your sick of?
Nice.
Thatll teach us poor wittle twammies wont it?
Anyone break the news to ya that ITS ALL UO BABY.....or am I the first?
Satisfaction of none in tramms?
Well thats why theres OPTIONS in the sandbox, whereas I find all kinds of satisfaction where I play, be it tramms or fel.
Go find yours.

Any chance the naysayers will ever seem to understand that quite possibly us poor wittle twammies might come to big bad fel and look for a fight if we is on level pwaying fields, meaning we gots 120 scwolls too?
I know I for one, will just wait it out till I scrollbind mine up to 120, meaning you might have a long wait to see me participate in fel. Any chance it might dry up even more than it already is, if this idea catches on?

Now I gotta go change my sig.
Try having an awesome day.....seriously!
Peace.

 

[Eyes of Origin]

sorry im just tired of this topic and the same person constantly bringing it up and getting everyone back into the topic that we were asked to end 2 locked posts ago. the whole tram vs fel crap

 

[KoolAidAddict]

sorry im just tired of this topic and the same person constantly bringing it up and getting everyone back into the topic that we were asked to end 2 locked posts ago. the whole tram vs fel crap

I didnt see this thread as a T vs F, but then again, he does have "known" agenda, it seems.

Anywho, ima go with sorry myself as to lashing out at ya.
Seems as tho we both could use more coffee mmmmm coffee!!
Im off to get mine!

Peace

 

[Eyes of Origin]

hehehe i just got mine... maybe i should've had it before i read the thread?

we all know how this will end up

 

[KoolAidAddict]

hehehe i just got mine... maybe i should've had it before i read the thread?

we all know how this will end up

Ya mean.......IBTL?
Nah.....

 

[Gowron]

Well, do we want Ultima Online to have a future and keep running for years to come or not ?

Because if we want, then I think whatever problems there may be need to be found and ironed out.

But if UO is considered a dead horse well, then it is a whole different story.

I am just trying to find out which is which as I have not yet understood it.

Yes, I would like UO to go on.

No, your polls aren't really going to effect that outcome one way or another.

The problem with expressing ideas is very few people can accept that their idea sucked when taken in context of the bigger picture or when long term effects are taken into account.

I submitted an idea, it got refuted, and I was fine with that. Of course, most of the rebuttals were logically communicated.

Problem with the "what's broken in PvP" issue is that what's "broken" for one person, is "fine" with others, or what's "fine" with one is "broken for others.

Of course, when discussing what is broken with PvP, there's always the "Come to Siege" comment that comes into place.

There, now you should understand...

 

[popps]

I think some peaple put alot of effort into comming up with threads they know will bring out the worst in peaple(much to the delight of the OP). This is just another example of that. Right up there with tram versus fel threads and flame wars that go with them. Pointless.

I fail to understand why.

I mean, why would those who care about the game, and its future and wellbeing refrain to discuss issues, like PvP, that are so important for it ?

Only because some people can't avoid getting heated up by the debate ?

Gimme a break..........

We have moderators for that and they are good and experienced ones too.

They can see the posts which try to heat up too much the debate and pull them out and warn the posters.

I do not agree with censoring important arguments for the future of the game only because some people have trouble discussing them quietly and peacefully.

If we can't discuss about important aspects of the game in the Forums created for the game what are we supposed to talk about, the weather ??

 

[Gellor]

The problem you have is there are three "general" groups who "vie" for attention when it comes to PvP:

1. Power PvPer - this is the group who PvPs and use anything/everything legal or not to "win" in PvP. Thus, unless it is something they can't "beat" or duplicate, it isn't broke.
2. Casual PvPer - this is the group who PvPs for fun and with "semi-normal" templates/equipment.
3. Forced PvPer - this is the group who has PvP "forced" upon them because they want everything in Fel without the PvP(aka scrolls/double resources/etc)

In general, none of these groups will agree on what is wrong with PvP. Often there is some overlap within the groups in terms of associations because of guild. But usually not as extreme as the "forced PvPer" and the "Power PvPer".

In my experience, the "Casual PvPer" has the most interest in fair PvP and will usually comment about all the exploits and other PvP imbalances in a fairly informed manner.

Again, in my experience, the "Power PvPer" will lie like no tomorrow and deny any exploit and certainly deny any imbalance that they take advantage of. I've seen this denial first hand in threads on stratics from people that are known to be "Power PvPers".

Lastly,in my experience, the "Forced PvPer" will call everything an exploit whether it is or not. My favorite "Forced PvPer" exaggeration is "that evil PvPer hit me with every shot"... then when more details come about, we find out he had no DCI, no weapon skill/mage weapon, etc. In a lot of cases, the "Forced PvPer" just doesn't know enough about PvP to give accurate information. I would liken this to the guy who knows nothing of hockey and calls the refs ******* for calling icing

 

[SDragor]

The main problem is that the game allows unlimited mass-murdering without penalty. This draws certain players to the game who - to my opionion - destroy the character of the game by their behavior.

 

[Miriandel]

If you like an item dependant PvP, WoW is the way to go.
It's not good, nor fine, but at least they pay attention to it and there's nothing better around that I know of.

True hardcore PvP was vanilla Ultima Online.
Everybody could stand his own.
Those days are gone to never return.

R.I.P.

 

[G.v.P]

Just look at the PS debates, at best I would say its 50/50

Pretty clear from the poll that the majority chose Fel only. Not sure why you think it's 50/50 .

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

I have a question which I need an answer for since I get confused from the various posts I read going opposite directions.

Is PvP in Ultima Online just fine as it is or are there problems with it ?

If there is no problem than this closes this thread right here.

If instead, there are problems about PvP well, shouldn't we perhaps make a comprehensive list of what the problems are and then look at solutions about them ?

This, I would imagine, in the best interest of the game.

So ?

NO.

 

[RavenWinterHawk]

The main problem is that the game allows unlimited mass-murdering without penalty. This draws certain players to the game who - to my opionion - destroy the character of the game by their behavior.

Actually, you have agood point.

Murderer should be a play style that gets jail time.

Think about it.

PvP in arenas not a murderer.

Factions not.

Blue kills, you might get caught and jailed for a week.

 

[popps]

The problem you have is there are three "general" groups who "vie" for attention when it comes to PvP:

1. Power PvPer - this is the group who PvPs and use anything/everything legal or not to "win" in PvP. Thus, unless it is something they can't "beat" or duplicate, it isn't broke.
2. Casual PvPer - this is the group who PvPs for fun and with "semi-normal" templates/equipment.
3. Forced PvPer - this is the group who has PvP "forced" upon them because they want everything in Fel without the PvP(aka scrolls/double resources/etc)

In general, none of these groups will agree on what is wrong with PvP. Often there is some overlap within the groups in terms of associations because of guild. But usually not as extreme as the "forced PvPer" and the "Power PvPer".

In my experience, the "Casual PvPer" has the most interest in fair PvP and will usually comment about all the exploits and other PvP imbalances in a fairly informed manner.

Again, in my experience, the "Power PvPer" will lie like no tomorrow and deny any exploit and certainly deny any imbalance that they take advantage of. I've seen this denial first hand in threads on stratics from people that are known to be "Power PvPers".

Lastly,in my experience, the "Forced PvPer" will call everything an exploit whether it is or not. My favorite "Forced PvPer" exaggeration is "that evil PvPer hit me with every shot"... then when more details come about, we find out he had no DCI, no weapon skill/mage weapon, etc. In a lot of cases, the "Forced PvPer" just doesn't know enough about PvP to give accurate information. I would liken this to the guy who knows nothing of hockey and calls the refs ******* for calling icing

Well, but the Developers still have a game to run and help keep going, so, there does is a need IMHO to identify problems which stop the game to prosper and make changes accordingly.......

The ultimate goal is the game's prosperity, as I see it.

Now, which is the best recipe to ensure it ?

Does a healthy and fun challenging PvP have any room in that prosperity recipe or not ?

Because if it has, then something gotta be done regardless what the 3 groups think, say or yell in order to have PvP be popular, played by as many willing people as possible who, news news, will have FUN doing it.......

Or, at least, that's how I think about it.

 

[G.v.P]

sorry im just tired of this topic and the same person constantly bringing it up and getting everyone back into the topic that we were asked to end 2 locked posts ago. the whole tram vs fel crap

One day, Fel will marry Trammel already. Until that day, the two sides will keep flirting with each other, spend time in separate guilds, bleed a little on UHALL and whine with the rest.

Frankly, nothing about PvP has to change. Be nice if UO monitored third party, but what ya gonna do. The system is fine, but the cheats are the only thing that make PvP annoying. But even the cheaters can be ganked, which is why artificial means of "balance" can't apply to a sandbox game like UO. For the people who want to limit "gank," go play a 1 v 1 fighter or something. Or get in line and rez up and work on tactics ;P because UO PvP is how MMORPG PvP should be really, one of the lasting appeals of this game and a reason why it still exists today in my opinion.

Or maybe it's the house tiles ;D.

 

[Viper09]

Just look at the PS debates, at best I would say its 50/50

Pretty clear from the poll that the majority chose Fel only. Not sure why you think it's 50/50 .

Of course it's also limited to only the stratics population

 

[o2bavr6]

I'll bite, Here is my list of PvP issues:

Make Chiv skill jsut like other skills. Need a high level to cast certain spells.
Chiv spells cast too fast
Chiv spells use to little mana
Chiv spells require very low skill to use

Paralyze (spell or from a weapon) should require magic resist to escape. Trapped boxes should not release para.

Magic Resist needs a revamp, cause its dumb as it is now.
Reactive armor and Magic Reflect need to go back as they were originally.

Every template should not be able to do more than 45 damage per hit. This includes hit spell, specials, or corpse skin FS.. whatever.

You should only get a bonus to Pots and Enhance Pots if you have Alchemy.

Mages should be able to have protection on and 4/6 casting to realize 2/6 casting with no interruptions. I know I will get flamed for this, but until they get rid of third party programs, speed hacks and regular hacks it will balance things out.... Unless.. see next paragraph.

If mages can be interrupted in their healing or curing process, then a mage should be able to interrupt a dexers healing or curing forcing them to re-heal. With this said, the healing speed times for dexers should be made faster. Like 3 seconds.

Mages need more love when it comes to PvP one handed items. Especially spellbooks with things like Hit lower Magic Resist, or Hit Lower Fire Resist or Hit Special Resist, or Hit Disarm Resist.

Not even sure what to say about Pets, so I think I'll leave them out since most true PvPers dont use them, and I don't want this thread to turn into another Nerf Pets Post... Even though there is no place for them in PvP.

Spellweaving needs to have Arcane Circle removed.
Spellweaving needs to have their spells take less mana and cast faster.
Word of Death needs to do more damage when a character is below 25% of health. it is supposed to insta kill the person but it never does.
Also why is it ok for Deathstrike to do so much damage or the specialfrom a Yumi, yet not Word of Death? Especially considering WoD currently takes almost 4 seconds to cast.

Some Mystic spells need to be a bit slower.
Hailstorm does way to much damage.. two people can insta kill someone if they both cast on the same person.

This thought will get me burned at the stake.
How about in Fel you can only wear GM made items.. Nothing imbued, no Val items, nada.. All armor and weapons must be made with Iron or Leather. If this was to be implemented, then item insurance in Fel would go away.

All templates should have a way to dismount (remove bolas all together). If a weapon can dismount then so should a spell like earthquake.. or make a dismount spell for mages. Or, remove dismount from PvP altogether.

I'm sure there are more but this is enough for now.

 

[legendsguy]

1. You can only have two attackers on you at once. Anyone else beyond that tries to attack will get a message "This player is already in combat, you must wait". This will crub ganking. Guild members attacking you do not apply.

this would be so cool. not having to worry about ganking anymore?? can a man even dream?

 

[Smokin]

Pretty clear from the poll that the majority chose Fel only. Not sure why you think it's 50/50 .

Pretty clear that your math skills suck, only one question in the poll said Fel only. The other questions all had to with in some shape or form of being in Tram. Its like other polls I have read where they ask the age groups of people saying things like 20-22 23-24 25-26 27-29 then the rest are 30-40 41-50 and such. Well its comparing apples to oranges. The percent could be in favour to the age group 30-40 but if you add up the age group of 20-29 they could be more.

That poll in itself was designed for Fel to be higher but if you add up all that said Tram in someway it was higher.

I am not saying anything about the whole poll just you need to learn your math better.

 

[mbraud4]

this would be so cool. not having to worry about ganking anymore?? can a man even dream?

This would be great, I mean for every classic battle in history this was always implemented. Right?

Napoleon only conquered Europe because he wasnt ganked. If two soldiers were engaged the others watched and waited their turn?

This is a stupid idea, guilds/packs have been aroudn for a while. You just join another guild to fight them. Fel is not a 1v1 only area, this is stupid.

Yet another ridiculous thread with even more ridiculous "ideas" in it. Some people need to give up. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

[mbraud4]

Pretty clear that your math skills suck, only one question in the poll said Fel only. The other questions all had to with in some shape or form of being in Tram. Its like other polls I have read where they ask the age groups of people saying things like 20-22 23-24 25-26 27-29 then the rest are 30-40 41-50 and such. Well its comparing apples to oranges. The percent could be in favour to the age group 30-40 but if you add up the age group of 20-29 they could be more.

That poll in itself was designed for Fel to be higher but if you add up all that said Tram in someway it was higher.

I am not saying anything about the whole poll just you need to learn your math better.

Once again, I say go poll people on whether they want to work hard for their salary, work lightly, or get paid just for nothing. I am sure you will get some amazing results. But will it be practical to give them what they want?

 

[Smokin]

Once again, I say go poll people on whether they want to work hard for their salary, work lightly, or get paid just for nothing. I am sure you will get some amazing results. But will it be practical to give them what they want?

That is a pretty stupid comparison, I mean maybe if you said do you want to work to play, or play to play, or sit and do nothing to play. Then maybe it would be more of a comparison.

 

[Paps]

Pretty clear from the poll that the majority chose Fel only. Not sure why you think it's 50/50 .

View Poll Results: Should Powerscrolls drop in Trm ruleset champspawns?
No,,,they should all be Fel only drops. 48.34%
==========================================================
Taken from `marriam-webster`
Main Entry: ma·jor·i·ty
Pronunciation: \mə-ˈjȯr-ə-tē, -ˈjär-\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ma·jor·i·ties
Date: 1552
1 obsolete : the quality or state of being greater
2 a : the age at which full civil rights are accorded b : the status of one who has attained this age
3 a : a number or percentage equaling more than half of a total <a majority of voters> <a two-thirds majority> b : the excess of a majority over the remainder of the total : margin <won by a majority of 10 votes> c : the greater quantity or share <the majority of the time>
4 : the group or political party having the greater number of votes (as in a legislature)
5 : the military office, rank, or commission of a major

— majority adjective
==========================================================
overview

Pretty clear from the poll that the majority chose Fel only. Not sure why you think it's 50/50 .

View Poll Results: Should Powerscrolls drop in Trm ruleset champspawns?
No,,,they should all be Fel only drops. 48.34%

ma·jor·i·ty : a number or percentage equaling more than half of a total

: cred·i·bil·i·ty ,,,,,something that if you had it before,,,you no longer do.

 

[olduofan]

No It don't pops because the dev team will NOT listen anyhow so it pointless. It should be that they do what the players want and listen to valid points but they seem to feel they are GODS better than us and know what we want and need so debate all you want if your bored

 

[five oclock]

No I don't pops because the dev team will NOT listen anyhow so it pointless. It should be that they do what the players want and listen to valid points but they seem to feel they are GODS better than us and know what we want and need so debate all you want if your bored

wait a moment...we still have Devs?

and also what you said about them is starting to sound like they are politicians Hrm..some might actually turn to that life of crime there.

as for your open debate about PvP....Thats what stratics is for...been that way since the start. Will be that way even after the game is long gone....

 

[olduofan]

wait a moment...we still have Devs?

and also what you said about them is starting to sound like they are politicians Hrm..some might actually turn to that life of crime there.

as for your open debate about PvP....Thats what stratics is for...been that way since the start. Will be that way even after the game is long gone....

good point well said sir

 

[G.v.P]

Pretty clear that your math skills suck, only one question in the poll said Fel only. The other questions all had to with in some shape or form of being in Tram.

1 obsolete : the quality or state of being greater

No,,,they should all be Fel only drops. 146 48.34%
yes,,,all 105-120 should drop in Tram AND all stat boost scrolls as well 89 29.47%

Sorry guys, but when it comes to a decision like this the Devs really don't care about the in between choices, just look at Pet Dyes. The majority voted no. You can define it all you want, but Trams lost again and it's clear Fel is staying the way it is. UHall posters are predominately Trammies anyway, which makes the percentage of people who voted no even more rewarding when idiots like you two try to look smart.

And Paps, seriously? Credibility? The guy who joined Stratics last September, some noob who knows nothing about PvP and needs help trying to make a stealther bard? ROFLMAO no wonder you want free scrolls . Please kneel down, and make some use of yourself, peasant.

 

[mbraud4]

That is a pretty stupid comparison, I mean maybe if you said do you want to work to play, or play to play, or sit and do nothing to play. Then maybe it would be more of a comparison.

thats the beauty, you can play to play, u dont need powerscrolls to play the game...You can play farming gold in tram dungeons, or farming ingredients, or whatever else it is that people do in tram, and buy scrolls if need be, but you definately dont have to work to play if thats not what you want to do...

I still say my analogy about sums it up. Poll anyone on if they want stuff that normally takes time and effort to earn, and if they would like it to be easier to obtain, anyone will say yes for the most part, except those who think it will cause a problem with the normal workings of the world.

 

[Smokin]

Well then redo the poll and take out the in between choices and it will be different. But you just don't understand numbers very well so I am not going to argue with you.

 

[Taylor]

*rants and spiels*