Dammit...a Parry Mage

[Skelf]

Ok...tossing this into the ring for discussion between life long dexers...

Parry mages? How do we beat them? For me, they are an enormous and growing problem since they appear to be a substantial if not dominant pvp template. And it seems to be getting worse...(

First some caveats:
1. I am not, for a moment, disputing the validity of the parry mage template. It has evolved, in my opinion, to counter the dexer archers. So be it....now us dexers have to metagame in response.

2. I am personally playing a template that is probably inherently weak against parry mages - chiv melee dexer - so my perspective may be skewed.

3. I am *very* far from being the best dexer on my shard. I still aspire to being just adequate..;p So again, my perspective may be unbalanced.

But...if there are non archer dexers out there who are regularly and *systematically* by virtue of your template and tactics beating parry mages, how are you doing it? I'm not interested in any elite pvp skills you might claim, I want a metagame solution.

Listening with interest..;p

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

I don't know you obviously so I'm just going by what I've inferred from your post. Your perspective is most likely unbalanced, by describing yourself as a life long dexxer, it sounds as though you have never competitively played a 2/6 Mage (at the very minimum). They've only recently became borderline necessary due to the enormous handicap they have with all the endless damage stacking available to other classes. This didn't come about with Disarm Archers as they were nothing new to begin with, just the absurd loot/suit options now available made them more viable. 2/6 Mages (of pretty much any hybrid) are vulnerable to spell interruption, everything, literally everything in UO that you can do to another player interrupts them, including pets/monsters. They also have to stop to cast. Both of these are also omitted from monsters/pets, and both monsters and pets dump 2 spells at a time for magic casters, and potentially 4 at a time for Necro casters. Aside from the fairly recent and extremely minimal effects of Casting Focus playing a 2/6 Mage has always been the only genuine skill based (meaning, it is down to player preparation, knowing macros, and most vitally knowing timing) PvP in the game. This is not a 'so casters are better than dexxers statement' the point is anyone playing a 2/6 Mage has been dealing with spell interruption the entire time they've been playing. On a dexxer stopping to swing doesn't exist, and swing interruption only occurs from Disarm and Parra.

Now the history lesson is over, Parry Mages are a hybrid, designed to deal with one aspect of your template (if you choose to only have one aspect on your template then that is down to you), but the point is as explained above literally everything blocks/interrupts 2/6 Mages. If you're on a chiv melee dexxer, you have Holy Light, Sacred Fist, Disarm, Hit Spell, Hit Fatigue, Hit Mana Drain, Splintering Weapon, HLD, and specials specifically Infecting Strike, Parra/Nerve Strike, Bleed, Mortal, Mastery's (100% elemental weapons plus Onslaught), if you have Ninjitsu you also have Death Strike, and darts/stars. Conflag/Explosion/Supernova. If you have Spellweaving Thunderstorm/Essence Of Wind/Wild Fire/Pixies. If you have Necro Evil Omen/Strangle/Revenant/Pain Spike. If you have Inscription Reflect Magic. If they're in Protection Ward Removal Talisman. If you have Mysticism Spell Plague/Spell Trigger/Bombard/Eagle Strike/Nether Bolt/Purge. Even a Lava Serpent talisman will interrupt Mages with it's aura.

The dice really couldn't be more loaded in your favour.

 

[Prime.]

They'll go away once archery and disarm/moving shot is dealt with.

 

[Skelf]

Wow...obviously touched a sore point here...;p

Some points:
1. I admitted right at the start that my view is probably skewed - so no prizes for pointing that out
2. I play a melee dexer because I don't want to be part of the problem - my choice as you point out. I could play a disarm/moving shot archer but don't want to.
3. I am seriously bad at playing mages...guilty as charged
4. Simply listing the options available to every conceivable dexer build doesn't mean they will employ or even have them all. I might as well list the 64 spells in a standard spellbook...it would be as relevant to the discussion
5. I do contest that 2/6 mages are the *only* skilled template - that betrays a certain bias in itself don't you think?

I was, and still am, hoping for a metagame discussion. The potted "history lesson" provided is a start, although it picks up the metagame at the point that best suits the mage-centric weltanshauung. Pause for a second and ask why archers evolved . They did so as a metagame response to the then dominant class... Changes in the game and loot tables cemented that shift just as much as it did the parry mage.

Maybe there is an element of rock/paper/scissors in this. I could posit that a full mage should be stronger in mage/mage combat than a parry mage. The strongest template should be the one that manages to get the most skill and stat points into effective play at any given moment. However, as there is a physical limit to the number of points that you can simultaneously put into play, some of those skill points have to be dedicated to passive skills that operate and are effective without being actively employed. The classic example of course would be Resist but Parry falls into the same category.

So there's the challenge - look forward, not back. How do you, dexer OR mage, beat a parry mage? Because if 75% of the pvp mages out there are parry mages, the people who can reliably beat them are going to clean up..;p

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Wow...obviously touched a sore point here...;p

Not really no, but the tone of your post led to the tone of mine, plus the repeated use of the word metagame irritated me. I don't know why.

Some points:
1. I admitted right at the start that my view is probably skewed - so no prizes for pointing that out
2. I play a melee dexer because I don't want to be part of the problem - my choice as you point out. I could play a disarm/moving shot archer but don't want to.
3. I am seriously bad at playing mages...guilty as charged
4. Simply listing the options available to every conceivable dexer build doesn't mean they will employ or even have them all. I might as well list the 64 spells in a standard spellbook...it would be as relevant to the discussion

Yes you admitted these things, but you're simultaneously failing to see that they are the reason you're struggling with Parry/Mages, this is why I point them out.

It's entirely relevant to the discussion. You're asking how to beat Parry/Mages. What were you hoping for? Some hidden magic button with a list of moves that you didn't know about? Well sorry, it doesn't exist. The purpose of listing them all is to show just how many effective ways there are to fight casters compared to the extremely limited choice they have when stifled to death by all of what they're up against.

5. I do contest that 2/6 mages are the *only* skilled template - that betrays a certain bias in itself don't you think?

No. Every form of PvP other than spell play (as stated not including when Casting Focus comes into play) involves the RNG. It is in that regard that it is a much truer test of the player. You can hardly call a dexxer fight a test of player skill when the RNG may let one player hit 5x in a row and the other miss. With timing and interruption there is no RNG.

I was, and still am, hoping for a metagame discussion. The potted "history lesson" provided is a start, although it picks up the metagame at the point that best suits the mage-centric weltanshauung. Pause for a second and ask why archers evolved . They did so as a metagame response to the then dominant class... Changes in the game and loot tables cemented that shift just as much as it did the parry mage.

I don't just play anything. The whole point isn't ones better than the other, it is that if you only play half the game you'll only be half as good. There are a lot of dexxers that don't/won't play casters for whatever their reasons, there are very few casters that haven't played dexxers. Why? Because most people start on dexxers, because it is functionally easier than playing a caster. As for which evolved first, it is a pointless chicken vs egg argument. Personally I think Archers 'evolved' on the PvP scene for no more complicated reason than it's easier to play a dexxer than a caster, but some people have worse connections, therefore mobility and range is king. Combined with the many flawed and exploitable game mechanics over the years (like instant death WOD Archers).

Maybe there is an element of rock/paper/scissors in this. I could posit that a full mage should be stronger in mage/mage combat than a parry mage.

I would agree with that.

So there's the challenge - look forward, not back. How do you, dexer OR mage, beat a parry mage? Because if 75% of the pvp mages out there are parry mages, the people who can reliably beat them are going to clean up..;p

I feel like I've already answered this but again, by adapting, if casting is a weak area of your game then that's what you need to fix. If you're of the opinion that all of the dexxer options are being negated by 120 skill points (which I don't personally agree with) then you'd need to look at casting options.

And before you get all indignant about it with stuff like 'why isn't there a dexxer way / why should I have to play a hybrid/caster / doesn't that highlight the game is broken.' etc. No, if you're going to reject all the dexxer options based on Parry, then that only leaves casting spells (or throwing pots - but that's not going to win on it's own).

I don't expect you're going to try to adapt to what you perceive as the current state of UO, I find that dismissing the list of options available to you, even though they include things you can do on your current template (Holy Fist, Holy Light, Hit Spell, Specials, Splintering), suggests that you're not really looking for a solution to your issues with Parry/Mages. More trying to campaign for them being nerfed, which is unlikely to happen due to this not being the right forum for it, and Parry on Mages already having the limitation of requiring 80 Dex. There also isn't really a problem with them, it is a (mostly) passive defensive skill, no one Parried anyone (attended) to death.

 

[Skelf]

Many thanks for your considered and detailed reply GOD. Whilst I think you have slightly misunderstood my goals and motivations, I am not going to turn this into a verbal tennis match, swatting points across the ether...p

Let's consider the positives I can see.

1. My template struggles against parry mages - and I do see that perhaps that is the core issue. It could equally well be that it's me that struggles as there are certainly casting options I am not using. Was I hoping for a magic button? Not really, just inspiration. Nevertheless, you have given me pause for thought. If I am not getting the most out of the template, it may very well be that to do so, I have to improve as a caster. I have no problem playing a hybrid, indeed it could be said I already do. Just not very well..;p;

2. Your point re the inherent dependence on the RNG and dexer combat is a good one. Over time, of course, it evens out and the good *players* still win whatever template they are on - or so it appears to me.

3. "trying to campaign for them to being nerfed" Unfair. At no point whatsoever did I suggest this, nor will I. I simply want to look for a way to do better against them using the current tool set. I'm not asking for any changes except in tactics.

Albeit by a different route, I think you have provided me with some of the answers I was looking for.

Cheers,

PS..metagame...;p

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

One of the main issues is obviously that by Parrying they increase the window they have to cast in, while you can try to keep the window small with effects like Bleed/Splinter, you could also break at least one combo (chiefly when they're gearing up an Explode or FS) with a well timed Conflag potion.

 

[Skelf]

***One of the main issues is obviously that by Parrying they increase the window they have to cast in***

You see? Just with that partial sentence, you provide me with half the understanding I was missing (I'm so dumb...touche..;p).

I have habitually looked at Parry as preventing my melee dexer from inflicting damage...but in many ways, that's the lesser of the problems. To effectively combat a mage, the dexer needs to have a way to reliably and deliberately interrupt, thereby blocking their principle means of attack and defence. I am afraid that I am guilty of trying simply to overwhelm their healing ability with damage output. Taking my cue I suspect from the disarm/moving shot archers... but staying within melee range to be able to deliver that damage is a problem without fast ranged damage. And that is why Moving Shot works so well for them.

However, with this "GOD given"..;p epiphany, what I need to develop are melee/close ranged interrupts. I know Bleed, Fireball, Poison interrupt. In fact with Poison, in an earlier incarnation as a Deathstriker, I used to use Lesser Poison simply because it ticked so fast. I suspect the DoT inflicted by the waki interrupts as well and isn't constrained by a timer. Does Holy Light really work in this context?

I suspect that these thoughts confirm one of your earlier comments - that by playing half the game, I am weaker. Yes..I now agree - not that the dexer is weaker or less skill based perhaps, but that I have not been looking at the problems that a dexer can and should, from a mage POV, present for a mage...specifically with regard to interrupting their principle, and often only, means of being effective. I am sure that many of these issues are perfectly obviously to many people but the penny just didn't drop on this for me. I am trying to resist a growing sense of sympathy for mages.. Can't believe I said that...p

May your fellow mages forgive you one day...lol

Cheers and thanks for your input.

 

[Lord GOD(GOD)]

Does Holy Light really work in this context?

Well it works at a slight range (can't remember what it is and can't be bothered to log in to find out) I think it's about 3 tiles. Which partially helps with staying on them. Plus you don't have to stop moving to cast it like most other spells. I can't remember if it's interruptible or not, I don't think it is.

 

[PwnySlaystation]

Here's how.

 

[PlayerSkillFTW]

Here's how.

That Parry Mage you fought, was pretty newbish. The time you spent trying to kill his War Horse, he could've hopped on an Ethy and poisoned your War Horse, preventing it from being mounted. From there, he just would've had to gone offensive with quick casts mixed with Poisons to prevent you from mounting your own Ethy.

 

[PwnySlaystation]

That Parry Mage you fought, was pretty newbish. The time you spent trying to kill his War Horse, he could've hopped on an Ethy and poisoned your War Horse, preventing it from being mounted. From there, he just would've had to gone offensive with quick casts mixed with Poisons to prevent you from mounting your own Ethy.

Thats Carter, he's an established PvPer.

and it would have been irrelevant if he poisoned my ethy as I have ninjitsu and could have animal formed away at any point