Cheating...the follow up thread.

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

Ok, so now that we have discussed what constitutes cheating, lets talk about our responsibility, if we have any.

We know that EA isn't going to do anything. So, what should we as players do.



Answer these questions with a yes or no.

1. If you know a guildmate is cheating, it is your responsibility to ask them to stop.

2. If you know a guildmate is cheating, it is the guild GM's responsibility to ask them to stop.

3. If you know a guildmate is cheating, it is no big deal, do nothing.



4. If the cheating by guildmate continues, it is your responsibility to find a new guild.

5. If the cheating by a guildmate continues, it is the GM's responsibility to boot them.

6. If the cheating continues, it is no big deal, do nothing.


7. Discussions about cheating are ok in vent/teamspeak.

8. Finding new ways to cheat is part of the challenge of this game and make it more fun.

9. If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying.

10. Cheating on the whole makes the game easier and better.

 

[Rykus]

<blockquote><hr>

1-yes
2-yes
3-yes do something
4-no (if its not general and only one player)
5-yes
6-no do something or find a new guild or solo
7-in a way yes to understand what they do not to do it.
8-no
9-no
10-no

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

 

[Guest]

<blockquote><hr>

1-yes
2-yes
3-yes do something
4-no (if its not general and only one player)
5-yes
6-no do something or find a new guild or solo
7-in a way yes to understand what they do not to do it.
8-no
9-no
10-no

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

So, if it is a gm's job to boot known cheaters and the gm doesn't, then does that change the answer to 4?

In other words, is it ok to tolerate a known cheater in the absence of action from a gm?

This isn't directed at you Kelmo or anyone in particular. I have always felt that one way to combat cheating would be to issue warnings to guild leaders and guildmates when someone in the guild is busted for cheating but EA isn't that hardcore about it (obviously).

 

[Guest]

Where cheating is rampant throughout a guild EA can, and have, banned the entire guild.

I do know at least one person who didn't cheat himself, but still lost his account because he took the 'none of my business' attitude to what his guildmates were doing.

I knew him on Europa but he'd cross sharded and joined a guild on his new shard when that happened.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

Where cheating is rampant throughout a guild EA can, and have, banned the entire guild.

I do know at least one person who didn't cheat himself, but still lost his account because he took the 'none of my business' attitude to what his guildmates were doing.

I knew him on Europa but he'd cross sharded and joined a guild on his new shard when that happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is rare though.

This is the difficulty in running a guild. You want your guild to grow so it becomes difficult to sanction those within. If you are too strict, your guild gets smaller. However, if you are too lenient, you are saying one thing and doing another...

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

I really do not know what you hope for here... once a pattern of bad behavior
occurs, you not going to stop it...you have no power except...
You can only stop yourself from cheating...and that is it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Strongly disagree.

 

[Guest]

-removed, this is just another excuse to start accusing people again-

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

It is EA's responsibility to fight cheating, whether they do it or not. We cannot take justice into our own hands, we don't have the necessary tools to obtain evidence.


[/ QUOTE ]

Strongly disagree again.

I can name names of people that I know speedhack. I have seen them do it on multiple occasions.

I can name names of people that I have seen exploit and heard discuss it in vent.

That is all the evidence needed. This is not a court of law.

Your argument is a cop out.

Edit: I personally consider scamming right up there with speedhacking and resource scripts.

 

[Guest]

#4 is more complex than simple yes no *honestly it is*

Guilds in a pixel society are also like *family units*

If we find our kid is cheating we offer them a chance to clean up their act first, before we would boot them or kick them from the family.

Thus to me a perma boot may not always have to be the first course of action a guild leader may opt to temp boot em, or offer some other form of *punishment* for their actions of cheating.

They should DO SOMETHING but that too is up to the Guild leader to DO or not DO. IF they never DO anything, then others might opt to exit because there are no RULES to obey then. Some would not wish to be in a guild where cheating is never *punished* some way or another.

Difficult to dictate humans behavior, in a pixel society and rl both. Rules are there rules are made, for the better benefit of a whole. When that whole is thus compromised then something needs to be done ! Perma banning em from guild would be last resort, temp banning hoping they do change their ways first, offers them a chance to clean up their act..ie prodigal son set up. When if they fail that.......they need to GO or they threaten the whole cuz yeh EA has banned entire accts for ONE cheater in a guild's midst.

But game guilds are NOT EA.. guilds are more as family..clans...we as *parents* fellow clansmen etc. ie the guild leaders/members CAN offer the cheater the opportunity to clean up their acct. after some temp punishment and then wait to see if they do value, the whole, over their own selves &amp; their cheating. If not then yeh....they need to GO ! *or we as individual members, do to find a guild that does not permit cheating perma like as a play style acceptable by it's members.*

I look at guilds in game more as *family units* we can only DO so much EA needs to enforce better. But WE also are provided the ways and means to help change some one in ways EA can not do, to possibly enable a cheater, to value the guild or community more than their own cheating and as their *family* guildies we can offer them the alternative...clean up your act...hope ya do..or then in the end you are gone. . or we will loose others if we keep you.

 

[UberJake]

1- No in fact i would probably have been working with them to refine whatever script/cheat they are testing.

2- I would never have been in a guild ran by such a person.

3- See 1.

4- In 8 years i think i could count on one hand the number of people who didn't "cheat" or use game mechanics in a way not intended by the developers that i played with.

5- Only if they were cheating in such a stupid way they keep getting caught.

6- Exactly.

7- Encouraged, openess and honesty between guildmates is essential.

8- Sure but also add to produce endless amounts of tears from certain individuals.

9- If you aren't cheating you are spending all your time crying about people you think are.

10- Not exactly cheating just makes the whole dull monotonous drugery of playing the random number generator less painfull.

There are other games out there that haven't allowed cheating/scripting and bugs to run rampant for so many years and people (about 10 million of them) for the most part abide by every rule they enforce.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

-removed, this is just another excuse to start accusing people again-

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not at all.

It is a discussion about whether or not we as players have a responsibility to police ourselves and others.

It is also an exercise in understanding that although we generally agree on what constitutes cheating and what our responsibility to combat it is, there are factors which interfere with what we know we should do and the behavior we actually demonstrate.

 

[Guest]

I agree and i an say the same i have stoped two guy from cheating back in the day.There argument where that if other do it on us we will do it on others.I said do it again and i am off and our internet friendship of 4 year will end and you will become aennemies.They did stop.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

Good response.

I was interested in exploring the sub culture of cheating as well.

Thanks for your honesty.

 

[imported_OldAsTheHills]

<blockquote><hr>

<blockquote><hr>

I really do not know what you hope for here... once a pattern of bad behavior
occurs, you not going to stop it...you have no power except...
You can only stop yourself from cheating...and that is it!

[/ QUOTE ]

Strongly disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]How are you going to stop cheating inside the game?
And, I do mean only you! You do not have the means to make others join you.
Beyond persuasion, how do you get ppl to pressure others to stop cheating?
Are you going to boycott their vendors? Internally exclude them from the game?
What in-game action can really work? Oh, and if you just keep pking their characters, that may just make their day! Good luck in this quest.

*stares*
Yahaxithonix

 

[Guest]

Honestly,

The cheating problem will not likely be fixed. One reason being most of the cheating tactics are not provable. Don't get me wrong I wish they were but they are not. Are guilds going to kick peeps for unproven accusations. Somethings are provable I am sure but the ones that affect the worst are not.
Next so what if they get kicked, I can see if that happens then the kicked will form together for a guild where they openly cheat together and everyone can compete with a guild of like 12 solid speed hackers and such in formation.

Half the ones cheating may very well be some of our poster complaining about it.

I am a see, feel, taste, touch kind of guy. I if its not there, its not there.

So I feel we should stick with complaing about each others templates and such.
Those at least are less deniable with more basis on fact.

The cheating will only be fixed if EA cares enough to do something and I dont think that is likely.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

Honestly,

The cheating problem will not likely be fixed. One reason being most of the cheating tactics are not provable. Don't get me wrong I wish they were but they are not. Are guilds going to kick peeps for unproven accusations. Somethings are provable I am sure but the ones that affect the worst are not.
Next so what if they get kicked, I can see if that happens then the kicked will form together for a guild where they openly cheat together and everyone can compete with a guild of like 12 solid speed hackers and such in formation.

Half the ones cheating may very well be some of our poster complaining about it.

I am a see, feel, taste, touch kind of guy. I if its not there, its not there.

So I feel we should stick with complaing about each others templates and such.
Those at least are less deniable with more basis on fact.

The cheating will only be fixed if EA cares enough to do something and I dont think that is likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, exactly that attitude is all to pervasive imo.

I won't share it.

 

[Kat SP]

<blockquote><hr>

How are you going to stop cheating inside the game?
And, I do mean only you! You do not have the means to make others join you.
Beyond persuasion, how do you get ppl to pressure others to stop cheating?
Are you going to boycott their vendors? Internally exclude them from the game?
What in-game action can really work? Oh, and if you just keep pking their characters, that may just make their day! Good luck in this quest.

[/ QUOTE ]

OATH - There is no way one person or one guild can stop cheating in any game, but there are means by which you can get others to join you. That is by recruiting like-minded people. Talk to perspective members, allow some time to get to know them and vice versa. Let them know what your guild is about and what the rules are. If they feel that your rules and playstyle match theirs, it usually works out pretty well. Sure, there are some who think they can get away with it, but they will eventually get caught. Either guildmates who witness it will figure it out and relay info to the leaders or they will bust themselves eventually.

All it takes is a preponderance of the evidence and the willingness to do something about it. It's not necessary to grief the offender, just take care of your business.

 

[Guest]

I am glad that you care and want to do something.

I only ask this, do you or anyone have a plan in place with some kind of structure.

1. One that a majority will be willing to follow.
2. One that actually provides actions on the guilty.
3. One that has a set method of identifing and verifying the guilty, so its not just random witch hunting?
4. And would everyone actually stand together down the road when things get complicated and players see thier friends being found guilty. Will they still push for justice or will it only be when it is thier rivals?

If these 4 problems could be solved then I would believe that we are on the path to correcting the cheating problem. Until these are done, its not gonna happen.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

I would suggest the first step is realizing that EA isn't going to do anything and that if it is an issue, it is up to us.

 

[Guest]

i sometimes find people cheating. mostly it is macroing. then usually i kill them and report them to their guildmaster. i record everyone i find doing this. so sometimes i find them macroind a second time. that's when i report them to GM. and that's where the problem is. either there is no GM available for the nexte 3 hours to check about the person i reported, or i am ignored.
i know i am beein ignored when i see people still macroing after i reported them 3 or more times. i know i am beeing ignored if i get a warning from some GM (cant mention names here) after reporting a macroer too many times.

 

[Sir Ha-ward]

<blockquote><hr>

Half the ones cheating may very well be some of our poster complaining about it.

[/ QUOTE ]



BINGO !

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

I think it is interesting that in the thread asking about what is and is not cheating, there was a very different group of posters than in this one asking what responsibility there is to police it.

 

[Guest]

Could be many reasons for that.

Mine for one is that this was the active thread when I logged onto Stratics.
The other is not.

If you want you could grab a shovel and dig up a conspiracy about it.
I know maybe I am not concerned about the cheating cause I created the speed hacks. But when I saw a thread looking for a solution I started to sweat and needed to sabatouge it right away.

or maybe it could be part coincedence, some people dont post when someone else has already posted something that represents thier views (though there are that still do), it could be work scedule and sleep schedule timing. It could be many reasons just pick your own.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

I think it is easy to define cheating.

I think it is somewhat harder to define what responsibility one has to prevent it.

I think it is really hard to take that responsibility and act on it.

In my opinion, many that posted in the other thread aren't posting in this one because although they can define cheating, they don't take responsibility or act on it.

For many it is easier to think that everyone is doing it. That provides an excuse to do it themselves.

Then, if they "win", they can convince themselves they earned it because they weren't using anything anyone else isn't using.

This is really important to them since "winning" is how they enjoy the game. They don't want anyone thinking they didn't "win", which they didn't if they had to cheat to begin with.

 

[Lord_Puffy]

<blockquote><hr>

1- No in fact i would probably have been working with them to refine whatever script/cheat they are testing.

2- I would never have been in a guild ran by such a person.

3- See 1.

4- In 8 years i think i could count on one hand the number of people who didn't "cheat" or use game mechanics in a way not intended by the developers that i played with.

5- Only if they were cheating in such a stupid way they keep getting caught.

6- Exactly.

7- Encouraged, openess and honesty between guildmates is essential.

8- Sure but also add to produce endless amounts of tears from certain individuals.

9- If you aren't cheating you are spending all your time crying about people you think are.

10- Not exactly cheating just makes the whole dull monotonous drugery of playing the random number generator less painfull.

There are other games out there that haven't allowed cheating/scripting and bugs to run rampant for so many years and people (about 10 million of them) for the most part abide by every rule they enforce.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.

 

[Guest]

well there are 2 big problems in my opinion concerning cheating. the first one is that they design a game in a way to not make it challenging to get something but to spend thousends of hours hitting one button over and over. and sadly its most parts of the games that are like that (crafting, pvm). i tried to get around that buy not bothering farming most things, the only thing i enjoyed farming was soloing paroximus without being in faction. that was somewhat challenging the first few times.

the second and way bigger problem is that ea never cared to do much against cheating and when they figured its getting a very big problem, it was way too late and the amount of $10/month's that would go away would be bigger than the ones staying.


but to get back on topic.

1. no, its everyones own responsability to choose how they live and how they want to risk their accounts. however its your responsability to decide if you want to play with such people or not.

2. thats up to the gm. if he feels cheating is ok, then thats up to him. if he wants to encourage it, thats up to him. if he doesnt tolerate it at all and kicks members, thats up to him.

3. again, personal decision.


4-6 look above, same answers pretty much

7. way more than ok, id actually encourage everyone to talk about it. inform yourself about cheats. that doesnt mean you have to use them. but understanding how cheats work and what they can and cant do helps alot for your own gameplay. otherwise youll always end up blaming something on a cheat and destroying your own fun even thoo it maybe has nothing at all to do with a cheat.

8. personal matter again. everyone enjoys things in a different way. there will always be the people that play games just to find ways to cheat.

9. or trying even harder. personal opinion again, everyone should decide for themself.

10. easier for sure, at least i would have never heard of anyone using a cheat to make it harder. better? id say less worse for a few aspects (back to carpal tunnel effect).

 

[Spree]

1. If you know a guildmate is cheating, it is your responsibility to ask them to stop. YES

2. If you know a guildmate is cheating, it is the guild GM's responsibility to ask them to stop. YES

3. If you know a guildmate is cheating, it is no big deal, do nothing.
NO


4. If the cheating by guildmate continues, it is your responsibility to find a new guild. YES

5. If the cheating by a guildmate continues, it is the GM's responsibility to boot them. YES

6. If the cheating continues, it is no big deal, do nothing. NO will not play losers that cheat


7. Discussions about cheating are ok in vent/teamspeak. NO

8. Finding new ways to cheat is part of the challenge of this game and make it more fun. NO Cheat are losers

9. If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying. Cheaters suck and should be band from game.

10. Cheating on the whole makes the game easier and better.
Cheater must have pathetic real lives that they always need to be on top in a video game.

 

[Sir Ha-ward]

<blockquote><hr>

I think it is interesting that in the thread asking about what is and is not cheating, there was a very different group of posters than in this one asking what responsibility there is to police it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your point?

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

Would you care to answer the questions?

You might not need me to tell you the point if you do that.

 

[Guest]

what i actually forgot to post in my answer. no matter what opinion you have on cheating, be consistent and dont have different opinions depending on who is the person in question, be it your best friend known for multiple years or your biggest enemy you hate the most.

 

[imported_MoonglowMerchant]

<blockquote><hr>

what i actually forgot to post in my answer. no matter what opinion you have on cheating, be consistent and dont have different opinions depending on who is the person in question, be it your best friend known for multiple years or your biggest enemy you hate the most.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, my best friends aren't in game and I don't hate anyone.

Your point about being consistent is valid though. The things I consistently frown on are speedhacks, resource gathering/afk farming scripts and the exploit of the week (or year sometimes at the speed EA moves).

I mind those things in particular because when I see someone doing them they are easily identifiable.

With other offenses as long as it isn't a regular topic for vent I don't really get too worked up.

 

[Guest]

i think its really cute that the real people this thread was created for barely have guts to post a thing.

just a bunch of fakers lol trying to look nice all the time