[Discussion] Auction styles...

[Scribbles]

So ive seen a lot of "auctions" lately that instead of just putting a reserve up, they say "I reserve the right not to sell unless the item reaches a fair price" or something along those lines.

Isnt that what a reserve is? What is the point of having an auction if you are just going to back out when the item doesnt reach what you think its worth? why not just put a reserve up?

I could be completely oblivious to the reason you would do this other than the obvious shady ones.

any thoughts?

 

[Money Bags Mcgee]

You posted this right after I put up my "auction" so I feel the need to respond. My reason for this is due to what I consider a market price. This is where supply and demand meet each other and a price is agreed to. Now, I believe people on this forum pay what they truly believe is a fair price, therefore, that's what the market value is to me. This could be 5mil, 10mil, 50mil or whatever amount over or under what I believe a reserve should be. At the end of the auction I have realistically look at myself and say, is this a truly fair price or am I just targeting the wrong people? If I believe that the right person won the item, even under what is my personal reserve, I'd still sell it because it'll go to the right home. I don't want to give an item away but I'm also not trying to set the precedent that I neeed this certain amount to sell it. Just my two cents. Thanks.

 

[Longtooths]

So ive seen a lot of "auctions" lately that instead of just putting a reserve up, they say "I reserve the right not to sell unless the item reaches a fair price" or something along those lines.

Isnt that what a reserve is? What is the point of having an auction if you are just going to back out when the item doesnt reach what you think its worth? why not just put a reserve up?

I could be completely oblivious to the reason you would do this other than the obvious shady ones.

any thoughts?

Come on Scribbles, you're a smart guy you know exactly why people do it. They do not publicize their reserve for the possibly of getting more and they think it is worth. And there are often times things do get personal at auctions (roses for 800m+ etc) where had the seller put an auction they would have done themselves a huge disservice.

 

[Scribbles]

Come on Scribbles, you're a smart guy you know exactly why people do it. They do not publicize their reserve for the possibly of getting more and they think it is worth. And there are often times things do get personal at auctions (roses for 800m+ etc) where had the seller put an auction they would have done themselves a huge disservice.

I get the shady reasons... the dishonest ones, the im going to cover my ass reasons... wondering if there was something else i was missing.

 

[Smoot]

same reason reserves are often hidden at ebay and other website auctions. because someone may be hestitant to bid the reserve when no one else has shown interest. but if 3 people showed interest under the hidden reserve the bidders at least know its an item that others are interested in (and therefore more valuable)

theres nothing worse than putting a relatively low posted reserve (to encourage bidding) and then having that item sell for the reserve. while if no reserve had been posted, that same bidder would have likely opened at twice or three times the amount.

plus its just easier. easier to evaluate a handful of items that havent gotten many bids at the end of the auction than figure out reserves from each at the start.

i agree, its frustrating when someone is over-valuing their items, but also very nice when its really just a disclaimer in case something gets ridiculously low bids, like in Jreds auctions. he sells almost all the items (usually for under market value) but just has the disclaimer in case like a 2 story statue only gets a bid of 50m or something.

 

[Smoot]

Now, I believe people on this forum pay what they truly believe is a fair price, .

wrong. everyone likes a deal, i get tons of "low" offers all the time which i know are a fraction of market price. and 9 times out of 10 that same items eventually sells for market price (after many lower offers) If im auctioning an item tho, i dont expect to get "market price". im expecting to get what i get. which is why i rarely auction items unless i know there will be good interest, or i just want to get rid of the item.

i would never blame anyone for wanting to get a deal. why pay 100m for something if you can get it for 10? thats not how you get UO rich, and stay UOrich : ) i would say most people are most likely to want to pay under current market value, to account for the market value fluxuation going down when they eventually sell the item in years to come.

 

[Scribbles]

Ty @Smoot that makes a lot more sense.

 

[slippjeem]

If it is called an auction and has no end and no reserve do like me let it rot, I don't bid on those and never will....

 

[Lord Kurt Cobain]

I believe it is a combination of what Smoot and Money Bags McGee said. This may be a bit of a detailed explanation, but if you can bear with it, it may provide you with an answer.

It can be hard to accurately determine the true market price, for reasons I will not get into. Because of this, placing a reserve too high or too low can lead to one party being made substantially better off than the other, which sure its nice to get a "deal", but I believe in fair trading, which occurs at the true market price as McGee said before.

With all this being said, it can actually be better (most fair) to not set a reserve, and allow consumer's to reveal their true preferences. This method can avoid pricing people out of the market, and theoretically, if demand exists, should drive up any low offers someone might make until the equilibrium price is reached. However, a problem exists in that, these forums target only us who read them, and not the population as a whole. Because of this, the final selling price could be either an overstatement or understatement of what the items true value is. We know this happens, but accept it anyway because usually the final selling price reaches somewhere close to the true value. However in extreme cases, the final offer may be so grossly over or under stated that we inherently know it is unfair. In a real market, this is when no deal would be made, and this is a right that both the seller and buyer have as participants.

So finally what we have is a problem of incomplete information, and a small problem of integrity. The seller doesn't want to make an unfair reserve, but also doesn't want to be made unfair offers. Everyone has the option to refuse trade, regardless of a reserve or not. What we instead hope for, is that members of this community will make only fair offers (close to true value) when no reserve is present. If we all look out for each other, we will all be made better off. In summation, if we all stopped making selfish (low ball) offers, then more trades would happen, and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Don't blame the seller, blame our selfish nature and what capitalism has taught us to do...

 

[Clops]

I haven't auctioned on Stratics in quite some time, but I've started a new strategy of "is this item really worth sitting on to eventually get an additional 25, 50, or even 100m from it?" At Pacific raresfest, all my items were listed as "no reserve/no buyout." This was the first time I've taken that approach, and some items went for WAY under market, but quite a few went for more than I've seen them sell for on Stratics. In the end, I may have been able to get an additional few hundred mil if I held onto all my items in an effort to gain maximum profit through sale over time. To be honest, I rather not spend my time responding to low-ball offers or sitting on an item for months on end.

With that same strategy, I've starting putting items on my vendor for 175m that normally sell for 200-250m. The extra 25-75 mil just isn't worth waiting for the right buyer to come along. I might just be impatient and lazy, though.

 

[JC the Builder]

I can understand having a reserve price. But when you put an item up for auction with a reserve near what it normally sells for, that defeats the whole purpose of an auction.

People who do this usually aren't motivated to sell in the first place.

 

[Lord Nabin]

Market price?

If you want to run an auction then do it with the items no reserve

That will give you the true real life value

Be bold friends, I have run dozens of auctions with no reserve and they were all very successful.

frankly this reserve crap is all about folks not bold enough to say

here is my item I want to sell it highest bidder gets it

now you establish a whole series of these and then you get the real market price.

Be bold, put your items out there and lets get some balance into this society.

 

[Scribbles]

Market price?

If you want to run an auction then do it with the items no reserve

That will give you the true real life value

Be bold friends, I have run dozens of auctions with no reserve and they were all very successful.

frankly this reserve crap is all about folks not bold enough to say

here is my item I want to sell it highest bidder gets it

now you establish a whole series of these and then you get the real market price.

Be bold, put your items out there and lets get some balance into this society.

wish you would of put those atl luna houses up for auction.

 

[Smoot]

Market price?

If you want to run an auction then do it with the items no reserve

That will give you the true real life value

Be bold friends, I have run dozens of auctions with no reserve and they were all very successful.

frankly this reserve crap is all about folks not bold enough to say

here is my item I want to sell it highest bidder gets it

now you establish a whole series of these and then you get the real market price.

Be bold, put your items out there and lets get some balance into this society.

just an example and would like your thoughts.

2 of the same item at the pac rares fest. same day (different end times)

one went for 150m
one went for 450m

what would you say is the the market price? 150 or 450?

this is just an example to show the huge price disparities possible because of the many variables factored in to the definition of "market price"

 

[Scribbles]

Dont try and define the market. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
What truth?
There is no market.
There is no market?
Then you'll see, that it is not the market that is defined, it is only yourself.


-sorry had to-

 

[Lord Nabin]

just an example and would like your thoughts.

2 of the same item at the pac rares fest. same day (different end times)

one went for 150m
one went for 450m

what would you say is the the market price? 150 or 450?

this is just an example to show the huge price disparities possible because of the many variables factored in to the definition of "market price"

Both are market prices. Things sell at what people are willing to pay for them at the time. With my auctions I was surprised that a few sold cheap and that others drew much higher sale prices. it's just all part of the eb and flow.

I don't really think it matters which way you go. I just prefer no reserve or buy out and let the community have fun bidding on the items.

 

[Smoot]

i dont think your definition (altho technically true i guess) is very helpful to the average player nabin lol. but yes, i agree no reserve auctions are fun, and i also agree that i wouldnt put items im concerned about getting a very low price on (in your case luna houses as an example) up in no-reserve auction. the disclaimer in question by scribbles is used by some players to alleviate some of that risk if it comes out to be too great.

 

[Lord Nabin]

Hmm I will try the auction on the Next Luna house

That will be fun

 

[Scribbles]

Hmm I will try the auction on the Next Luna house

That will be fun

the next one... stop out placing me.

 

[Scribbles]

so I think you are both correct. when i give price quotes to people I usually give them three options. 1. The lowest ive seen anywhere (stratics, raresfest, auctions etc) 2. The highest ive seen anywhere 3. What i see them currently for on vendor search.

Then i tell them, "with all of that said, what its worth is only what you are willing to sell at and what someone is willing to buy at."

If they are thinking of auctioning an item i tell them "your best bet is to hope there is more than one person wanting the item"

As far as a reserve goes... When i ran the consignment house and people gave me their items to put on a lot. The reserves were often what i would consider market price. The buy outs were a get lucky price. There wasnt much of an auction going on. However with that said it did start the conversation to get the items sold. Both ends of the process ended up happy. It just wasnt as much fun as a true auction.

To me the most fun ive had at auctions were with @Lord Nabin 's stratics auctions and @Nails Warstein 's in game silent auctions. Those were both primarily no reserve no buy out and they did really well. So well i decided to follow suit trying my own auctions mimicking theirs. I quickly noticed however that my auctions were not as successful price wise. This was mostly due to the fact that i was a new seller/auctioner and partially to do with user error. However over time, when i built up a meager reputation and started doing live events leading up to the auctions i got much better results.

So here is my theory:

A seller with a better reputation, that is more likable will always sell at higher prices than a newcomer. A buyer with a better reputation, that is more likable will always buy at a lower price than a newcomer. Supply and demand will always promote or deflate an items worth. Game changes will always exacerbate prices for a couple months.
The chaos to this theory is when a seller/buyer with a better reputation, that is more likable gets impatient he/she will be more willing to go to crazy lengths to sell/buy an item. Like buying that one piece that you have been missing to a set that you have been looking years for.


I think this is a situation where we are all right. an economy in any circumstance is fickle and will have variables out of our hands.