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G
Gowron
Guest
Wow! This has got to be the lamest post I've ever read on these forums. Congratulations go to the OP. Now go get your cookies and milk and go back to lincoln logs.
S
Splup
Guest
Only problem is his post is that AO already stands for Anarchy Online so it can't be used.
Otherwise Archer Online would fit pretty well. Been playing UO last couple days again PvPing, and I'd say 3/4 of people I have fought against have been archers, or more.
Well, everyone sings the praises of the fact that UO has no restrictions in the sense of the "classes" that other games have.
The downside is that anyone can change their setup to the latest gimp template at the drop of a hat.
You cant have it all ways.
The downside is that anyone can change their setup to the latest gimp template at the drop of a hat.
You cant have it all ways.
Well they can balance certain skills in effectiveness in game. Or at very least making the "gimp" templates require some actual player skill to work. I told all my trammie friends wanting to try PvP to play an archer and I told them if your HP is down to 50% just run away until you pot and bandage kick in and go back and repeat and they instantly picked up PvP as an archer. And of course some of these archers tried out mages and not one but ALL of them failed and even some commented on mages being "g@y to play" and they will stick with the archers.
Nuff said.
EXACTLY!
Whenever something changes in game mechanics, or a new item is introduced that gives an edge, everyone unloads the requisite skills from their soulstones and voila ... the new gimp template.
Sure its Archers Online now ... and as Spree said, before that it was Mages online. Im sure itll change again and again and the PvP crowd will just insta switch to it. That is the downside of the open ended system UO uses.
But mages took a lot more of a player than archers.
And UO hasnt been mage online for at least 7 years now.
Archer is just too powerful for the virtually zero skill requirement to play one.
Mages on the other hand will be a steep learning curve especially for the newbies that never played a mage before. So they can have all the skills on their mages but if they cant play a mage they will get their asses handed to ANY template. But any trammies can pick up archery with godly items and start PvPing effectively. See the problems here?
Agreed. Kind of funny. It was Archer online, then mages online, then hally's online, then mages online, then maces online, then mages online, then archers online, then mages with shields online...there was a fencers online somewhere, but lost track of the order over all these years.
It never once was a bards online and I think my post before stratics reset the ideas den for bards was a good start. I thnk I'll post it for fun.
Poor bards...
-Lorax
L
longshanks
Guest
anyone remember the last time we had a pvp focus group... 1-1/2 years ago?
anyway, with all the dramatic changes courtesy of imbuing and entrance of a new gargoyle class maybe its time to have another discussion on what's working (in some cases to well) and what's not.
i got a friend who loves mages and pvp's all the time. i dont know if archers are over powered but he informed me today that he put anatomy and parry back on his main mage to combat them.
anyway, with all the dramatic changes courtesy of imbuing and entrance of a new gargoyle class maybe its time to have another discussion on what's working (in some cases to well) and what's not.
i got a friend who loves mages and pvp's all the time. i dont know if archers are over powered but he informed me today that he put anatomy and parry back on his main mage to combat them.
C
Coppelia
Guest
Beware of stealth chefs in the next patch! 
S
Splup
Guest
WarUltima got it right here, ****ty mage is a ****ty mage no matter how good the magetemplate is. I remember after AoS was lauched taking a mage duel with my 2/4 casts 0 SDI mage against 4/6(or 9) mage wearing all the freaking mage arties you could find. But he was straight from trammel and ended up dead.
If you have even 1 hand you most likely will be effective with archer if you have good items. One guy on our shard who had broken arm actually played archer with 1 hand, putting all macros to his mouse, I think he said he had 6 or 7 buttons, and he was effective. Usually he plays mage...
Yea I know archers usually have more then 6 or 7 macros, but it really doesn't take much skill from player to be effective archer.
I'm not saying archers should be nerfed down to useless, but they do need tweaking.
I dunno if it's making weps slower, having 40 SSI hard cap, raising special cost(especially moving shot), making bandies slower, removing balanced mod (or having some kinda timer on how often you can chug with that mod), removing dbl hitspell from bows etc. there's lot of choices what to do. They should collect some group of PvP:rs, archers,melee dexers and mages but the kind who don't just blindly defend their own template to discuss about it. On these boards it goes to flamewar too often.
P
pgcd
Guest
I'm kinda sure it used to be tamers, about the time GDs were introduced. And before that etc.
So, I really want to say: are archers so powerful? Play one and win.
And no, I don't give a whatever, I'm just cranky.
So, I really want to say: are archers so powerful? Play one and win.
And no, I don't give a whatever, I'm just cranky.
the only problem with your statement is he was correct. so...what does that say for you?
Yes and I play 4. The thing about archers are, noob player on an archer makes them decent pvper, a pro pvper on archer is pretty unkillable. Noob player on a mage is still a noob pvper that will just instant die. A great mage player makes a decent mage.
An experienced mage will never be able to kill an archer that know when to offscreen 1v1. But an archer can get lucky depending on fireball procs and bring down even some of the most experienced mages. And we are not even talking about disarm archers which will wreck any mage that uses a mage weapon (that's the majority of them)
M
mrrippletip
Guest
yeah i never really understood the logic that mages needed nerfed because they can use weapon specials, so let's make them build tactics into their template...
...but archers who can heal on the dead run...let's give them double hit-spell bows they can chug pots with, and a mount that can cast mage spells and have 600 HP...
SOUND BALANCED TO ME!
...but archers who can heal on the dead run...let's give them double hit-spell bows they can chug pots with, and a mount that can cast mage spells and have 600 HP...
SOUND BALANCED TO ME!
It is Archery Online now days. I think that just a few simple changes to bows will help the PvP world out.
1. Make them slower or do less damage!!!!
2. Remove the Balanced Mod from the game!!!!
3. Increase Mana Cost for Moving shot!!!!
As it stands now archers can hit you from a range, on the run, chug pots without disarming, use double spell effects and god knows what else. I dont play one I just know the few things that I notice help archers out.
WU said it correct as well. Put a good mage suit on a mage template and you do not have a good mage. Put a bow and a good suit on an archer and you have someone that can run around and kill people. I have been trying my hand at a mage. Alot of my issue is the lag, but I deal with it. Playing a mage I will say is alot funner and also alot more skilled than playing an archer. Knowing the right combination of spells to keep your enemy on his toes while also getting your timing right so you are not interupted while also keeping yourself alive, while watching your buddies life bar incase he needs a xheal. So much more that goes into playing a good mage.
I will tell everyone now that I do not currently have a working archer. My archer is now training archery in Luna but I do not have a working archer yet. I am working on the gimpy one that will be running folks down. Its a shame it will only require me to hit around 10 buttons to win UO though, but if you cannot beat them, join them.....until next time...
1. Make them slower or do less damage!!!!
2. Remove the Balanced Mod from the game!!!!
3. Increase Mana Cost for Moving shot!!!!
As it stands now archers can hit you from a range, on the run, chug pots without disarming, use double spell effects and god knows what else. I dont play one I just know the few things that I notice help archers out.
WU said it correct as well. Put a good mage suit on a mage template and you do not have a good mage. Put a bow and a good suit on an archer and you have someone that can run around and kill people. I have been trying my hand at a mage. Alot of my issue is the lag, but I deal with it. Playing a mage I will say is alot funner and also alot more skilled than playing an archer. Knowing the right combination of spells to keep your enemy on his toes while also getting your timing right so you are not interupted while also keeping yourself alive, while watching your buddies life bar incase he needs a xheal. So much more that goes into playing a good mage.
I will tell everyone now that I do not currently have a working archer. My archer is now training archery in Luna but I do not have a working archer yet. I am working on the gimpy one that will be running folks down. Its a shame it will only require me to hit around 10 buttons to win UO though, but if you cannot beat them, join them.....until next time...
QFT 100%
U
UOKaiser
Guest
So why not unnerf the GD,unnerf the mage,unnerf necro,unnerf bushido,unnerf ep,unnerf ninjutsu,unnerf gargoyeles " they came nerfed already" Then every other skill can take on archers and everyone will be close to equal. If you just nerf archers you just gonna have to end up nerfing something else that takes it's place immediately because then archers will complain of being underpowered.
I hear too much of this.... I think the only thing they need to nerf a bit is moving shot... A longer delay before you can perform the special again would solve everything.
When SS was added to bows...people were not running around with all 70s stam and mana inc suits that were 40 lmc with 45 hci and 45 dci and they def. didnt have balanced bows with two hit spells...that was after all unheard of.
Now reflect on how mages have changed. Their casting debuffed, spell dmg lessened, spell books made disarmable...and tactics was made to be required to use specials with a mage. No buffs have been added to magery to boost the skill back up compared to melee temps.
Keep all that in mind if you would. Most people don't consider the progression of the game... but we really need to in order to make changes right for all.
Give it a bit of time, soon it will be a different skill that everyone uses and archery will fall back.
But do keep in mind. Just because lots of people play the archer doesn't mean they are good at it.
Everyone here who whines about archers make it seem like playing an archer means you can kill everyone easily. But I play an archer, been playing one since before they were popular and I can't seem to kill anyone that easily. In fact it is usually I who ends up dieing.
But do keep in mind. Just because lots of people play the archer doesn't mean they are good at it.
Everyone here who whines about archers make it seem like playing an archer means you can kill everyone easily. But I play an archer, been playing one since before they were popular and I can't seem to kill anyone that easily. In fact it is usually I who ends up dieing.
I wont call myself a great archer and I am actually pretty new at archers however I apply my PvP common sense and run when I have to. I do not die to anyone 1v1 unless its a quick dismount disarm gank. And kill a handful very easily.
If you are killed pretty frequently on an archer you switching to mage will be worse. Trust me and feel free and try mage sometimes at today's UO. If you are not remotely a decent mage player or have never really PvPed on a mage, it's pretty much instant die for you, but if you are on an archer without too much effort you can force a mage to go into defensive mode. And mage is the only thing in the entire Ultima Online rightnow that cannot offend and defend at the sametime.
M
mrrippletip
Guest
yeah, if you want to stay alive on an Archer all you have to do is run
you can take Animal Form too, if you are dismounted...so all you have to do is survive the initial dismount and then you can pop into a lama and run away healing
yes i know, mages can use Animal Form too, but they can't heal in Animal Form except to chug a pot every 9 seconds
if you are a mage and wanna heal, you can't even move...and if you do move, the Archer can just run after you firing moving shot while healing with bandaids
an Archer can Attack, Heal, and Defend all at the same time on a dead run
a mage can't do anything on the dead run except chug, and an archer can do that too...while shooting arrows and healing with bandaids
I am not saying "hey beat the archer down with a nerf stick." I have an Archer, even tho my main characters are all Mages.
But with 50 EP and 180 STAM and 70's resists and balanced double-spell bows and animal form and enhanced band-aids...the Archer is very overpowered...
...add Ninja or Animal Taming to that template and it makes the most powerful mage template pale in comparison.
you can take Animal Form too, if you are dismounted...so all you have to do is survive the initial dismount and then you can pop into a lama and run away healing
yes i know, mages can use Animal Form too, but they can't heal in Animal Form except to chug a pot every 9 seconds
if you are a mage and wanna heal, you can't even move...and if you do move, the Archer can just run after you firing moving shot while healing with bandaids
an Archer can Attack, Heal, and Defend all at the same time on a dead run
a mage can't do anything on the dead run except chug, and an archer can do that too...while shooting arrows and healing with bandaids
I am not saying "hey beat the archer down with a nerf stick." I have an Archer, even tho my main characters are all Mages.
But with 50 EP and 180 STAM and 70's resists and balanced double-spell bows and animal form and enhanced band-aids...the Archer is very overpowered...
...add Ninja or Animal Taming to that template and it makes the most powerful mage template pale in comparison.
Then let me be the first to tell you that you are doing it wrong. Start from that and move forward and you will be a pro in no time!
Another interesting thing is, how much gargoyles you have seen in PvP since SA?
lol and the mages with always 45 DCI and parrying? what do you think 5 vs 5, 5 mages against 5 archers who will win?
The mages it is clear, the mages are healers and very good team players, a lonley mage is nothing, but in a group they are good.
The fact why you are loosing is the speed of the archers movement, what UO needs is definitvly a readjustment of the movement speed for both clients and a serverside speedhack prevention.
I Disagree. allthough this is highly hypothetical, Id say its the other way around. Mages need to buff and debuff this and that before the dmg starts, while the 5 archers can shoot first shot 0.0 seconds into the battle, and 5 shots from 5 archers is enought to kill. Did anyone say mortal? arrows also disturb on every hit. Hit once and mages got lowered defence abilities. But as I said hypothetical and could be debated untill the sun goes supernova in 2 billion years.
In my opinion there is a need for balance, on all classes. Pub25 in AoS was great stopping the item madness, now its time to take a new look. Seriously the hard caps should kick inn so much faster, mages with infinite mana? how spoiled can you get.
Less mana would mean harder champ spawn aswell, for mages and dex, double win. its like multikill in UT.
5 archer will win 99.9% of the time. Area Lightning (magical shortbow) one target, then the next, then the next, etc. Mages can try to sync dump but they will fizzle. Plus dexers can xheal within 2 seconds WHILE doing damage.
Actually if no offscreen is involved. 5 archers will win if they are not ******** and stand next to each other and crosshealing. You are looking at 2 second 65hp bandaids here, and if they also use shorties with one archer with mortal weapon, mage squad will lose. On a field fight mages might stand a change if it's an OFFICIAL ONSCREEN DUEL, 5 non-****** monkeys on archers can beat 5 mages.
I'm pretty sure that could be done with 2 moderatly intelligent monkeys playing 5 archers with multiple accounts... after all it's ONLY 5 buttons to be an effective archer.
Alot of fairly good points raised in this thread.
It would be nice to see archers toned down a good bit but not nerfed into oblivion.
I think removing balanced bows would be a start. At least make the archers disarm to chug!
Mages need a buff also.
It would be nice to see archers toned down a good bit but not nerfed into oblivion.
I think removing balanced bows would be a start. At least make the archers disarm to chug!
Mages need a buff also.
If its open field 5 mages should always win vs 5 archers if the mages are skilled. They can pick targets off with synchronised mana dumps and watch each others bars.
Wtf would you have 5 archers and 5 mages having a no offscreen fight tho, gotta ask?
Would be quite funny to watch that actually
Hypothetically, if restricted to this scenario (like a tourny in an enclosed area), I might go with the mage squad. 5 xhealing roachmage with protection using coordinated mb/explosion dumps.
But note
1) how much specific criteria I put into that just to gain an advantage over the archers
2) the no offscreen just took away an archer's greatest advantage.
Splup mate all i have seen the past 2 weeks is you and merv making anti archer threads. I know GOD guild **** you off but ffs man stop the cry on the forums about Archers.
You both said in a few threads last week your leaving when your game time runs out, so stop the crying and just leave, your constant crying is getting me down....
One last thing, when you say 3/4 of the people are using archers. What you realy mean is on europa we only have 20 people who PvP and 15 of them are archers....15 people is not so may eh!
Wow Europa pvp is like that? I feel so grateful. On Sonoma it's like 50-25-25 Archer to Melee to Mage ratio. Pacific is a lot more mage and archer tamers. Napa valley is about 50-20-30 (Archer-Melee-Mage), Baja is archer tamers and stealth tamers mainly.
I PvP cross many shards but I just cant imaging a shard where there's 75% archer and melee and mage share the rest 25%... PvP must've been very depressing and boring there.
Prot will not help. First of all it will drop the mage's physical low but regardless, archers can use mortal and 3 shots is enough to end a mage's life. 1 archer do lighting strike which will hit 3 magesm the rest 4 nuke 1 mage with mortal attack spammed, apples have timer... that will be first mage instant die. You cannot instant kill archers... and for a big enough dump to kill 50EP archer with prot on you will die before you finish casting. Also archer can also throw conflag which directly stops casting of ALL kinds. Conflag has no effect to archer's offensive power.
Think about it, assuming they all run prot (now their explosion will take as long as 1.75... and this means each archer already shot you at least 2 times, 1st hit is instant, 2nd hit depending on swing timer is about 1.5s). At this point you would already have 1 or 2 mages dead, because archers already attacked 2 rounds. Without CURSING... it takes FIVE (5) flame strikes to kill an archer with 140hp. Because at least 1 mages is already instantly killed the remaining fire power isnt enough to kill 1 archer and the archer can 50EP chug + a xheal for 60hp in 2 second (for smart archers they can tbox themself for little dmg before exp goes off and have his buddies applying bandaids which will kick in with explosion...)
I am lazy to type now but just remember, everything goes fight dexers have unlimited xhealsthat will never fail because they can spam cure pot since poison spell is mages' only way to stop healing. While archers can unlimited chaining mortal a mageand no heal will be successful and apple has a timer.
If it's a field fight mage stands a change if they turtle and use fields. If they do not, they will just get moving shotted down assuming at least one archer is mortal striking.
Its not as bad as they would have you think. The problem the OP and Splup has is that they have yet to get to grips with the new Ibued stuff they can make. Its a whole new ball game out there with people thinking up new ways to make suits and weapons. They just have to learn to adapt and build new suits/weapons.
My only mage is a PvM mage/Necro, he has 120 parry and 60 DCI and i find that i can get away from a group of archers quite easy. There is no way i would even think of standing and fighting 3v1 when the 3 i fight are archers. 1v1 is a difrent story, keep the archer BO and spam curse/FS/Explode while chuging pots to heal
The fact of the matter is, at the end of the day mages SHOULD be superior to all other classes in UO (depending on the mage) due to the advanced level of skill, timing, and overall knowledge of the game required to play one. I'm not saying everyone that plays a mage will be superior, I'm simply saying there should be the POTENTIAL for a mage to dominate all other classes. I see no reason for good, experienced mages to not be able to obliterate any dexxer monkey class that comes their way. After all, YEARS of practice on a mage should be worth something, right?
I actually think that Mistura is right, it'll actually be quite fun to see this in action!
In the setup above, protection is critical to prevent disrupts. Loss to physical resists can be negated by overcapping phys. Penalty to magic resist is moot against archers. So the killer is that -2 penalty to FC that brings down the FC cap to 0.
On the roach mages' side is that arrows can miss, esp if it's a parry roach with overcapped DCI. But spells are guaranteed hits.
I was thinking of using a co-ordinated old school mb/explosion followed up with ebolt/FS (or use chain lightning for area damage to all 5 archers) is to ensure that the target don't have a chance to get a heal from his buddies. No need to use poison tactics. That's 5x explosion, and 5x FS to 1 single target. CL precast and timed just as the explosion goes off. That should prevent the 2 sec heals from taking effect. Archers can't evade, so the victim might be able to pop 1 single 50 EP gheal pot. No off screen, so can't run out of range.
If all goes optimally, mages get first kill at 3.75 secs. With the remaining 4 archers damaged from 5 CLs depending on how closely they were standing to the victim. But like you said, if the archer is smart, he can set off a dart box to let his buddies get the heal going. Timing is critical though. Need the heal to complete in the fraction of a sec after explosion goes off and before CL hits.
I would expect the archers to do a similar coordinated attack. Probably 2 designated mortal'ers, 2 AI'ers, 1 paralyzer (even with trapped boxes, it can be used to disrupt the mage). At 0 sec, first shot flies from 5 archers. By the law of averages, likely only half will hit the victim roach. Ideally for the archers, a mortal gets through. Mage eats apple, pops a 50 ep gheal pot while his buddies start to heal. Should survive round 1 unless opponents are all packing velocity+hit lightning bows...
About 1.5 sec later, another hail of arrows flies off. If the mage gets mortal'd again, he's a goner. If not buddies should be able to heal him up to full HP before the 3rd wave hits. Probably won't survice teh next wave, but may be able to brag that he lived longer than the first archer.
Wow, I am actually interested in seeing how this will pan out. Any guilds with lots of free time on their hands? Boils down alot to how often the archers hit/miss (including the hit effects).
To have an even chance, do mages need spellbooks that can be imbued with hit lightning and can grant specials like mortal strike and moving shot?...
Um...3.75 seconds to dump one archer i'm pretty sure half of the mages would be dead by then. Also, you can't eat an apple while casting and I am sure very few mages have 50 ep built into their suits. I've played a mage for a long time and I can say there is no need to try and simulate this battle. The way archers are built now, any decent group would completely destroy 5 mages who were forced to stay on screen. Mages simply do not have the capability of winning that fight no matter who they are. Take note, prior to stygian abyss the story would have been very different.
S
Spoz
Guest
I'd like the following changes:
Damage from all archery weapons reduced by 1/3 (to players and monsters)
Archers currently rival melee dexer weapons at damage and stats - even 2 handed melee weapons. Reducing their damage would mean those that have to get close to their foes are rewarded for it somewhat.
If you fail to dismount (either via bow or melee weapon) you still cannot remount for the standard time
This prevents all the archers who run up attempt a dismount at distance, miss and then remount and pursue. Equally applies to the few melee dexers who do the same.
Parry is 1/2 as effective
If archery damage is reduced then parry can be reduced. This would mean some mages wouldnt want to or need to have parry on their character.
No disarm for mages and dexers
I'm unsure on this one - but I think if the parry suggestion goes ahead then may be ok
Pets do 1/2 damage to players
Just because...
All mage fields last 1/2 as long
Fields last an awefully long time - I'd like them to last 1/2 as long. Won't cause a major change, except for those who field to defend - they'll be slightly more hard pushed to maintain fields while doing direct damage.
Summons cost 2x as much mana
Even though I can dispell summons - I appreciate how powerful they can be against those who can't dispell so think they should have an appropriate cost
Damage from all archery weapons reduced by 1/3 (to players and monsters)
Archers currently rival melee dexer weapons at damage and stats - even 2 handed melee weapons. Reducing their damage would mean those that have to get close to their foes are rewarded for it somewhat.
If you fail to dismount (either via bow or melee weapon) you still cannot remount for the standard time
This prevents all the archers who run up attempt a dismount at distance, miss and then remount and pursue. Equally applies to the few melee dexers who do the same.
Parry is 1/2 as effective
If archery damage is reduced then parry can be reduced. This would mean some mages wouldnt want to or need to have parry on their character.
No disarm for mages and dexers
I'm unsure on this one - but I think if the parry suggestion goes ahead then may be ok
Pets do 1/2 damage to players
Just because...
All mage fields last 1/2 as long
Fields last an awefully long time - I'd like them to last 1/2 as long. Won't cause a major change, except for those who field to defend - they'll be slightly more hard pushed to maintain fields while doing direct damage.
Summons cost 2x as much mana
Even though I can dispell summons - I appreciate how powerful they can be against those who can't dispell so think they should have an appropriate cost
S
Scratch
Guest
i believe balanced is the problem with archery the most....no other dexxer can hold a two handed weapon and chug a pot that has a base damage like a balanced bow does today......
they either need to
1. remove the balanced mod from the game
2. make balanced mod available on all two handed weapons
3. or disable EHP on chars with the archery skill
they either need to
1. remove the balanced mod from the game
2. make balanced mod available on all two handed weapons
3. or disable EHP on chars with the archery skill
X
XavierGL
Guest
Archers need to be nerfed a little I fully agree and I play an archer, BUT what is worse is the totaly gimp archer tamer. How hard is it to run around dismount and hit your all kill button?? The archer tamers are quickly ruining PvP if you want a nerf lets start there........ And totally take the dumb ass dread mares out of the game
Correct. Which is very possible, I don't mean to sound cocky but I do it myself. Only weakness on that template is 3+ Moving shot archers on my ass. Other than that I don't die too often. Bushido for Confidence , 50 EP , and Ninja FTW.