A trammies point of view

[Lore Master]

I just want to start and say i am not trying to start an argument but someone should say this. i really love this game i have been playing UO for just over 7 and a half years so i am no newbe.

• I see a lot of request for removal of insurance, removal of POF, removal of blessed items and request for more breakable items. well i can say this i really hope none of those things happen and i know i am in the majority with this even if not on stratics because if you poll every single player that plays UO i know i would be in the majority with this.

• As you know roughly 90 percent of UO players are not a member of these forums or any UO forums. i would also assume about 90 percent of players are trammies that don't pvp or want to pvp. regardless the majority of players are trammies that dont pvp. I love that tram exist and i have no complaints that fel and seige exist infact i am happy that all 3 exist. i am also happy that tokuna, ish and malas exist they also add spice and life to the game.

Part of the reason tram was created was to offer us a choice. if we want to pvp we can go to fel if we don't want to pvp we can stay in tram thats part of the beauty of UO freedom to do what we want.

• You don't see us trammies complaining and asking that fel be abolished or that pvp be eliminated from UO. so please stop requestion that tram be abolished i think the rules are fine in tram and fel now as they are and i don't want them changed.

Most players do not want to lose there hard earned rare armor, weapons or items to some thief or to some red.

• When i lose something of great value i sometimes feel sick to my stomache and sometimes don't play for another day or two so i see no fun in loseing something to a red or a thief but everyones differnt.

to sum this up removing insurance, removing pof, removing blessed items, and creating more breakable items would make more players quit uo, have less players go to fel, would create more items to just sit in our houses and never be used and would make uo less popular.

• I do not play seige or know much about Seige all i know is what i heard. i heard that seige it is all pvp and stealing from others with no insurance or blessed items. seige was created for those who don't like insurance or blessed items so thats another choice which makes UO that much better of a game.

How about a compromise instead of removing insurance or blessed items from fel or the game how about many new npc can be created that we can kill and steal from that have many differnt random items including many differnt random minor and major artifacts in fel maybe also in tram and other places too.

• I also purpose that killling the npc might give you one item but stealing from it might give you a differnt item meaning some items will only be gotten from stealing and some only from killing. depending on the item and level some will spawn less often then others and some will be very rare up to crimson cinture like rare and quality perhaps. maybe even the npc can be tough too from brigand tough to balron tough so if you try to steal and fail get ready to fight or run lol.

I also purpose more stealable arties and items though not all thiefs enjoy stealing artifacts many do like me.

• Heres another compromise i dont know if seige has a tram but if it does perhaps another shard can be created withought a tram or without tram rules at all everywhere with no insurance and no blessed items. perhaps you can even transfer your stuff and characters to this new shard using transfer toilkens just a suggestion

Like i said i am not trying to start an argument its just my opinion so try to be considerate and kind in your replys thanks.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

You don't see us trammies complaining...

ROFL. You are kidding, aren't you? All you need to do is go into the threads about players who want to improve Felucca...la

 

[Lore Master]

ROFL. You are kidding, aren't you? All you need to do is go into the threads about players who want to improve Felucca...la

i dont read every post but i am one trammy who is not complaining about the rules in tram or fel as they are now. i say leave the rules the way they are if it aint broke don't fix it as the saying goes.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

But they are broken. That's the point...la

 

[ShadowJack]

I think your post is well thought out, and has valid points, but you shouldn't get sick to your stomach over losing items.


That just shows how much the game depends on them now.


I really don't like to steal or kill people who are like you, and I think that for players like you that enjoy playing in fel, that the things you like about fel can be moved to trammel


some idea include


order/chaos - allows reds to enter trammel with no pking under the chaos guild

moving ps to trammel - another item fel would be fine without


making dungeons and towns in fel controllable by factions who can determine gameplay and style in controlled towns

something would have to be put in place of the powerscrolls for the dungeons, but that shouldn't be too hard. maybe faction quests or chaos/order quests




The main goal of asking for these changes is to balance out playstyles and gameplay for all players across both facets and across the expansion areas. tok is pretty much dead, move a powerscroll spawn there and the others other places.





we aren't trying to run anyone out of the game, just get a mix of the old and the new for all players



And the thief/pk forum isn't just there to teach you to steal, it's there to teach you how not to be stolen from and how not to be pkd



If you have any questions on the subjects, head over and ask

 

[ShadowJack]

And I'd totally be for faction/chaos order quests that will give you blessed pvp items that can be used only by chaos/order or factions maybe limited to 2 per char



perks for fighting in those systems

 

[phantus]

But they are broken. That's the point...la

and what you don't mention is that for every 10 players that think insurance needs adjusted 7 are thieves(or would like to play a thief again) 2 are from Siege(go figure) and the 1 that actually plays a proddy shard that thinks so doesn't have enough friends to play with and gets zerged all the time.

Link? Don't bother...

Shadow, Viper and Rico have been spewing the same, tired ass rhetoric for weeks in the hopes that someone will give them some attention. It always works as there is always someone willing to argue with them. This works for them as it keeps the umpteen million wore out pro thief/anti insurance threads on the front page for that snowballs chance in hell a developer will pop in and go "This is the idea we have been waiting for!" /laughter

Instead of arguing just let their threads die. They are only supposed to be able to bumb them up themselves limted number of times and they do get tired of posting to themselves eventually.

The amusing part is I have yet to see any propose any new theiving areas or mechanics for the new expansion that may or may not come out and it would be the only opportunity for anything to come their way. Insurance isn't going anywhere and thievery isn't getting an bones thrown at it under current rules. Don't let all the talk from the same 6 people alarm you, Lore Master. They have been spreading this verbal manure for years and it hasn't gotten them anywhere yet. The game is no longer capable of supporting the playstyle they loved 9 years ago but they will continue to advocate for it until they turn the servers off.

 

[TheScoundrelRico]

The amusing part is I have yet to see any propose any new theiving areas or mechanics for the new expansion that may or may not come out and it would be the only opportunity for anything to come their way.

The last time we pushed that issue, the developers promised us "a bone". The results? Doom. Not quite what anyone was hoping for...la

 

[Sebrina]

Shadow, Viper and Rico have been spewing the same, tired ass rhetoric for weeks in the hopes that someone will give them some attention.

I've played all kinds of characters, (good and bad,) but never a theif yet. Some of this is quite intriguing and I might just have to try this character type. I NEVER get board with UO. There is always something else to experiment with.

 

[ShadowJack]

There was a time when people would say that the game would never get to where it is now.



You've ran those players off, why throw the bone of fel to them. Most of them don't know trammel anyhow.



Most of them would laugh at FEL now, I know I do.



Item insurance has been in for 5 years, and there are less people in FEL now than there were when they put it in.


The game is big enough for all styles of play (obivous) but you aren't going to put real PKs (and I mean real ones, probably not yours) in trammel, thieves don't belong in trammel



Insurance nerfs the real pk, it nerfs the people who fight pks, it nerfs the thieves and the looters



You seriously don't see why you should rez will a 100 million gold suit full of ubergear and run back to fighting someone???



I don't get it.

 

[Ailish]

Lore Master - until just very recently, the ones wanting removal of PoF and item decay were old fashion crafters. I suspect we don't hear from them anymore because they have just left, because these items and systems have demolished their playstyle. I DO PvP and spend the majority of my time in Fel ... I would be for the removal of PoF and the return of item decay.

As for no insurance ... it doesnt really matter to me, either way. As long as it exists I will use it, but I played this game before insurance and my neighbors who were crafters made a killing off of me I didn't mind it then, and I doubt I would now.

On your assumption that 90% of the player base is Trammie and never PvP ... I believe that is quite inaccuate. I think that there is a decent chunk of Fel-only people (10, 15, maybe 20%) and an even larger chunck that are both Fel and Tram players, who PvP and PvM.

Last, regarding thieves ... who on earth came up with the idea that thieves (real ones) would want to "steal" artifacts off the floor in Tram-based shards??? That is called looting, not stealing, and it is silly! TBH, they should have made a new skill for that "Artifact Hunter" or some such. Thieves should never have been allowed out of Fel. As in ... join the thieves guild, you may as well have went red because you can no longer use that moongate option. (FYI faction thieves do not need to join the thieves guild to steal sigils, so it would not have effected them unless they chose for it to.)

 

[D'Amavir]

i dont read every post but i am one trammy who is not complaining about the rules in tram or fel as they are now. i say leave the rules the way they are if it aint broke don't fix it as the saying goes.

You are right. You are ONE Trammie that doesn't complain abou the rules of Fel needing to be changed. One. But, as Rico said, you can come in here just about every day and see someone from Tram on an 'Improve Fel' thread begging for a pvp switch, or the removal of thieves, or the Tram ruleset on Fel or any number of things to change Fel.

And, again, you are right. Trammel was made to give people a choice. That choice is to stay in Trammel and avoid the Fel ruleset or go to Fel and take part in the Fel ruleset.

As for Trammel, I don't want them to remove insurance from Trammel. Not because I worry about losing any of my great items, since I don't really run with really great items to begin with. But because, like was said, a large number of Trammel players would cry about it and have nightmares everytime they lost an item or something. Those same players are the ones that cry about the Fel ruleset being too challenging for them. So, while you might not specifically try about the Fel ruleset, far too many Trammel players do.

I also don't support those threads that ask for Trammel to be removed, for the same reason as I noted above. Two facets with differing rulesets offers a wider playbase than just one would, regardles of which one that might be. Personally, I don't play in Fel. Ever. Not since before Trammel was created for the most part. But I am the type that wants as many people as possible to have what they are looking for in this game instead of being one of those that are far too common on these boards. Which is the type that wants only their playstyle supported and all others removed. That is not the way to build a strong playerbase. And, without a strong playerbase, the amount of resources (money, developers, qa members, community relations members) that a game owner chooses to allocate to the game is much smaller. Whereas a game with a strong playerbase is given more of those resources, which of course leads to a better game.

 

[D'Amavir]

Lore Master - until just very recently, the ones wanting removal of PoF and item decay were old fashion crafters. I suspect we don't hear from them anymore because they have just left, because these items and systems have demolished their playstyle. I DO PvP and spend the majority of my time in Fel ... I would be for the removal of PoF and the return of item decay.

Agreed. The current item system has killed the real crafters of UO. The crafters that actually played crafters.

On your assumption that 90% of the player base is Trammie and never PvP ... I believe that is quite inaccuate. I think that there is a decent chunk of Fel-only people (10, 15, maybe 20%) and an even larger chunck that are both Fel and Tram players, who PvP and PvM.

I would agree here as well. Though I don't play Fel myself (not for a long at least), I know quite a lot of people that do. Some full time and some that play partially in Trammel and partially on Fel.

Last, regarding thieves ... who on earth came up with the idea that thieves (real ones) would want to "steal" artifacts off the floor in Tram-based shards??? That is called looting, not stealing, and it is silly! TBH, they should have made a new skill for that "Artifact Hunter" or some such.

Exactly. Thieves are people that steal things, not pick things up. Considering artifact picking upping as a 'bone' tossed to real thieves was a joke.

Thieves should never have been allowed out of Fel. As in ... join the thieves guild, you may as well have went red because you can no longer use that moongate option. (FYI faction thieves do not need to join the thieves guild to steal sigils, so it would not have effected them unless they chose for it to.)

I disagree there. Some people play thieves in Trammel that steal 'plot' items from other characters for rp events and such. Also, a lot of people use the thief guild membership for the chance to use disguise kits. There is not other way to get access to these kits. Again, this is strictly for rp purposes (with a few exceptions of course) but, as an rp'er, I would hate being stuck in Fel just because I wanted to be able to use a disguise kit.

 

[Kratos Aurion]

The reason a lot of people wanted breakable, less durable items was to give crafters more production value. Theres currently no market for crafter gear due to the shear amount of available artifacts and duped bkits crafted armor.

The best market as of the moment for any mule is with weapons. Although there have been several runic dupes, weapons still seem to hold strong.

Ultima needs a lot of compromises to bring it out of the shadows. Yes trammies will need to compromise with losses. Although it may be hard at first, everyone adapts eventually. And if you say otherwise, I'm a trammy too and while you may have valid opinions, I feel indifferent to yours.

 

[Nexus]

and what you don't mention is that for every 10 players that think insurance needs adjusted 7 are thieves(or would like to play a thief again) 2 are from Siege(go figure) and the 1 that actually plays a proddy shard that thinks so doesn't have enough friends to play with and gets zerged all the time.

Find irrefutable proof any of the suggestions given by the 10 you mention can't and won't work on a large scale, those 10 have proof on a larger scale than they mention that it can work , that proof is that Siege still exisits. For every few of you posting in opposition how many are there that aren't posting and how many are not posting saying they'd love it. How many people could you send an ICQ or E-mail to that might return to the game if Item Dependence was removed from PvP?, how many do you know would quit? Not how many you claim but know 100% for fact would do any of these actions.

Those supporting it are saying They would Love it, that it might be a draw for some old vets not that it will, we're not pulling BS figures and tossing them out, we're not making threats to cancel subscriptions, we're not trying to bully anyone, we're stating possibilities and personal preferences that we would like to be looked at and possibly reviewed for inclusion, not screaming a bunch of Doomsday prophecies and make believe reactions. Be objective not let personal bias dominate your views, state reasons against and let someone attempt to disprove your reasoning or give counters. Screaming "If they do it I'll Quit" isn't getting your point across.

Shadow, Viper and Rico have been spewing the same, tired ass rhetoric for weeks in the hopes that someone will give them some attention. It always works as there is always someone willing to argue with them. This works for them as it keeps the umpteen million wore out pro thief/anti insurance threads on the front page for that snowballs chance in hell a developer will pop in and go "This is the idea we have been waiting for!" /laughter

And the threads about Vamp form, Greater Dragons, Archers, Removal of Fel, Combining Shards, and Disarm are no different? Your using your personal bias to try and condemn an idea, it's nothing more than an Idea until a Developer comes out and does just what you said...where's the harm. The Fact that these posts you so seem to hate or claim to be so weary of do nothing but prove there is an actual interest by a portion of the player base in these actually happening not that it will happen. The Truth of it is the concept frightens you, your afraid of the possibility of loosing pixel crack, nothing more nothing less or your frightened that another wrench might be tossed in adding Risk to a Risk free game.

Instead of arguing just let their threads die. They are only supposed to be able to bumb them up themselves limted number of times and they do get tired of posting to themselves eventually.

The amusing part is I have yet to see any propose any new theiving areas or mechanics for the new expansion that may or may not come out and it would be the only opportunity for anything to come their way. Insurance isn't going anywhere and thievery isn't getting an bones thrown at it under current rules. Don't let all the talk from the same 6 people alarm you, Lore Master. They have been spreading this verbal manure for years and it hasn't gotten them anywhere yet. The game is no longer capable of supporting the playstyle they loved 9 years ago but they will continue to advocate for it until they turn the servers off.

The game is perfectly capable of supporting the play style, how can you say otherwise once again there is a Larger Scale example of this called Siege. It's supposed to be the advanced shard, which it is, but that does not mean there is no room for some of it's unique differences in Production Shards.

As far as proposing new areas...Claiming back old areas is fine, letting additional areas have those features also would be a naturally progression. Proposing New Areas for thieves to steal from players. without changing current PvP areas, would defeat the purpose because as long as Fel, being the only current area for thieves to steal from players outside guild mates, were to remain as it is now, it would lead those new future areas to be more or less deserted because players would have the option to PvP in a thief free environment. Nothing short of removal of Insurance from any and all Fel Rule Set facets can bring the Thief Class back into the PvP arena, yes I said PvP because it is a Player vs Player action we're after not PvE or Player vs Environment like Doom, the Dojo, and the Yamatsu Mines.
Just because you don't like to hear that doesn't mean it's a wrong thing to do any more than us wanting it looked into make it a right thing to do. Accept the posts for what they are worth, argue the pros and cons, show some maturity and not make idle threats, and whine over something that may not even happen.

 

[Ailish]

I disagree there. Some people play thieves in Trammel that steal 'plot' items from other characters for rp events and such. Also, a lot of people use the thief guild membership for the chance to use disguise kits. There is not other way to get access to these kits. Again, this is strictly for rp purposes (with a few exceptions of course) but, as an rp'er, I would hate being stuck in Fel just because I wanted to be able to use a disguise kit.

I admit I never considered this concept. I am a bit twisted-up on the disguise kit thing. I am not really sure why only thieves ever had access to this. There are many reasons one might wish to use one. Sadly, they also can be used for scamming and such, which makes it hard to say they should be available to all. Perhaps there should have been a skill attributed to them - not like thieving, but more like ... Acting. The higher your acting skill the better your success chance and the longer the effect.

RP stealing ... hmm, that is tough, too. I understand the reason alot of the RP community has moved away from Fel, but I still have a feeling that stealing, being what it is, should stay in Fel. That is one of those hard calls where you have to say, overall, thieves are not just out there RP'ing with the intent of giving items back or only taking the designated item from a willing victim. Ranks right up there with corpse looting ... yes it can and sometimes was used in an agreeable way ... but mostly it was not, so it was removed.

 

[phantus]

Screaming "If they do it I'll Quit" isn't getting your point across.

Quoting someone generating implies that person said the item you are quoting. What you quote is not what I have said.

Now while I....ooops....lost interest in the same worthless argument.....have fun with the other 9

 

[Nexus]

Quoting someone generating implies that person said the item you are quoting. What you quote is not what I have said.

Now while I....ooops....lost interest in the same worthless argument.....have fun with the other 9

While I quoted your initial statement, the body of the post I made wasn't directed at you in general. Read over the other topic how many people have said they would quit and "Everyone" they know with them?

 

[Chad Sexington]

Quoting someone generating implies that person said the item you are quoting. What you quote is not what I have said.

Generally, yes. One of the exceptions is paraphrasing.

 

[Doomsday Dragon]

And every felucca player feels the exact opposite of what this thread is all about.

You failed to make a point here because this has been discussed since the birth of trammel anyone who has been around stratics for any length of time has already seen it before several times.

We all know what a trammel player thinks and we all know what a felucca player thinks.

 

[D'Amavir]

RP stealing ... hmm, that is tough, too. I understand the reason alot of the RP community has moved away from Fel, but I still have a feeling that stealing, being what it is, should stay in Fel. That is one of those hard calls where you have to say, overall, thieves are not just out there RP'ing with the intent of giving items back or only taking the designated item from a willing victim. Ranks right up there with corpse looting ... yes it can and sometimes was used in an agreeable way ... but mostly it was not, so it was removed.

While I agree that most thieves aren't doing anything close to rp'ing, Trammel's ruleset ensures that thieves being in Trammel are effectively controlled. They can only steal from players in guild wars in Trammel. So, those that are just 'griefer' types end up unguilded or unwarred so that they pose no threat. Forcing all thieves to stay in Fel is really needless since Trammel is so protected. Even the rare thief that finds a way to get guilded to a warring guild can't really steal anything due to insurance and blessings. What would be the point anyway? If they are warring with their 'mark' they can just kill them and loot everything. No point in stealing one item when you can do that really. No murder counts since its Trammel under the guild system so they don't risk going red.

 

[Kariny]

And every felucca player feels the exact opposite of what this thread is all about.

You failed to make a point here because this has been discussed since the birth of trammel anyone who has been around stratics for any length of time has already seen it before several times.

We all know what a trammel player thinks and we all know what a felucca player thinks.

Uhm. No, you don't know what everyone thinks. Not everyone posts here. You are making a mighty big assumption. Everyone, new or old, has the right to post their complaints, issues, or opinions.

I personally feel that reds should stay in Fel. Period. That's why they created Tram. To keep us wimps out of the pvper's way and out of their gameplay.

I've often wondered though why don't they void insurance in Fel. Put more risk back into the game.

 

[Uvtha]

Yeah, you like a borring "game". Thats fine, I understand most people do. A "game" with huge imbalances caused by lack of danger, and lack of loss. In tram there is no sense of satisfaction in having been a good person, because you cant do otherwise, and with no item loss people get SO greedy because power must be coveted to keep up. I think its a terrible way to run a game.

I personally prefer an exciting "world". I know im in the minority now, and ive accepted it. In a "world" you have to be free to choose to be virtuous or vile, and in a world your precious items will disapear, because they have to, but by doing so greed is under cut, and a wider arry of players get to enjoy the aspects of the game that they enjoy. No pks and no danger in death means rampant scripting, and rampant camping, tie it together with the ever increaseing levels of power (because that is ALL that can happen when you have blessed, indestructible items) and people become anti social, and withdrawn, and unwilling to share, unwilling to open up. I can remember back in the "horrible" days before tram, where DAILY I would meet new freinds out hunting, and we would... JOIN FORCES, for protection, and to take on tougher monsters, and split the loot, and it was great fun, making new friends and having new experiences. Now a days i'm lucky to have anyone even respond to me talking, on a prodo shard. I hate it.

The experience that is gained by interacting in a virtual world are well worth the trade off of possibly losing some small colored graphics if you ask me. But then again I know I'm in the minorty.

 

[D'Amavir]

I personally feel that reds should stay in Fel. Period. That's why they created Tram. To keep us wimps out of the pvper's way and out of their gameplay.

You mean that pk'ing should stay in Fel. i agree with that 100%. The Trammel ruleset makes pk'ing impossible unless you choose to war another guild or engage in internal guild conflict. Reds in Trammel wouldn't change that at all. Two different issues completely.

 

[Wenchkin]

To the OP - I don't have any designs on changing Tram. Do what you like with it. I just want Fel fixed up so she's a good "opposite" contrast facet for production shard players to experience a risky environment. Nothing more than that. I wan't a better choice between Tram and a wishy-washy Fel that barely resembles the facet I started on. That's it.

Wenchy

 

[Ailish]

D'Amvir - I guess you are right about the fail-safes. I still think it would be better to have an "acting" skill then disguise kits, tho! I guess I was actually thinking along RP lines - murderers are not allowed in Tram (which matters neither way to me), why would they have let thieves be in Tram?

Wenchy - I agree with your basic thoughts. I don't want to change Tram. There SHOULD be a very vast differnce between Fel and Tram.

However, I do think item decay should be across the board. And that has nothing to do with being a PvPer (nor am I personally a crafter - I HATE crafting). It has to do with economy and community. The OP is wrong about WHO usually is pushing for item decay, tho. It is the PvPer that usually is against it, not trying to get it implemented (not always the case, of course!)

 

[T_Amon_from_work]

Am not going to quote all your stuff as there is only ONE item I would like others here to consider: Powder of Fortification. Not removal, but alteration of usage. Perhaps something like this ...

Every item that has a durability factor gets a PoF usage counter. That goes for crafted, loot drops, artifacts, minors ... everything. This counter is not displayed like item attributes are. Maximum count: 25 (for example)

When PoF is applied, the counter decreases by 1 for each application of PoF. At some threshold, the name of the item changes to a yellow or orange hue.

Between this stage and the next, repair deeds may be used. Crafters may be asked to repair the item.

As PoF is applied more times it hits a threshold where the count hits zero. At that point the name of the item is in RED.

When the item is red, only a crafter can repair it. When it is repaired by a crafter, just like a deed, there is a chance the max durability will decrease by some number (1 typically for Legendary).

BUT ...

The counter is reset to the countdown maximum -1 ... using 25 as a case, it is now 24 ... the lettering of the item returns to normal. The cycle starts over.

====
What does this do ...
1. allows PoF to be used to buff the durability of a nice loot drop or crafted item.
2. sets a finite limit to the usage of PoF without removal.
3. sets a time period where a crafter MUST repair the item or you could lose it when durability hits zero.
4. At the yellow/orange point thru the red point, usage of a crafter resets the countdown as if it had hit red. So crafters COULD be used sooner than just hitting red point.
5. It re-introduces things that WILL wear out ... except the timeline can be quite long. But not infinitely so.

This is by no means perfect, open to all sorts of naysaying, open to all sorts of "why didn't I think of that" and other comments. I only ioffer it up because I believe PoF is part of the demise of the crafters, and limiting the usefulness could revive professions somewhat.

 

[Ailish]

I am afraid you got a bit too complicated there for me to completely follow, but I think I agree with your basic idea. I would go more with something like:

Maximum # of PoF charges that can be used on an item = 100 (this is the equivalent of using 10 full bottles of PoF on the item). Don't change repairing/durability damage at all.

As it is now, if a Legendary Tailor repairs an item before it reaches 70% of its maximum durability (70/100) the item does not lose any durability from the repair. If you wait longer it does. (Not sure how deeds work right now, but deeds should always lose 1 durability IMO. That is/would be the trade off for it being a deed instead of the actual crafter.)

If you chose to wait until your durability is 0 and you lose a bit of your max (I am very guilty of this!) then you pay the price for that by only being able to regain that durability so many times.

A PoF count would need to be on items to prevent reselling of non-powderable items at the same price as powderable ones (like people used to do with BoS and waaaay back when with armor that was about to break).

 

[Wenchkin]

D'Amvir - I guess you are right about the fail-safes. I still think it would be better to have an "acting" skill then disguise kits, tho! I guess I was actually thinking along RP lines - murderers are not allowed in Tram (which matters neither way to me), why would they have let thieves be in Tram?

Wenchy - I agree with your basic thoughts. I don't want to change Tram. There SHOULD be a very vast differnce between Fel and Tram.

However, I do think item decay should be across the board. And that has nothing to do with being a PvPer (nor am I personally a crafter - I HATE crafting). It has to do with economy and community. The OP is wrong about WHO usually is pushing for item decay, tho. It is the PvPer that usually is against it, not trying to get it implemented (not always the case, of course!)

Yes, I agree with you on item decay, I don't think items lasting forever help anyone, even if some feel it does. I think it would get very dull if we were at the point where a perfect suit could be obtained and then live on our char forever.... Oooh look perfect ring! pity I don't need it. Do you want this uber ring? Oh yeah, you've already got one. Ach well, guess I don't really need to hunt for gold or items anymore. Mmm, I could make a crafter and oh yeah, I'll just be making repair deeds for all this perfect kit. Zzzzz....

Wenchy